[RadioRay]

Originally Posted by kc0iv

Problem RR is that most companies give lip services and that's all.

I don't know about UPS but I know several FedEx drivers that use these illegal radios.

Second point looking at the front panel of some of these radios one would have to know quite a bit about these radios to spot the illegal units. Companies are not going to spend several hundred dollars on a power measurement unit just to check for illegal radios. Plus, train several people on how to use this unit.

Yes RR I find it really funny. But not for the reason you think.

Looking at the band plan for 10 meters for 28.085 AM (as published by the ARRL) it appears to be a CW, RTTY, data portion of the band. If that is true then a couple of questions.

1. Why would this ham use such poor receiver to receive a CW signal. I sure wouldn't use 3.5 KHz receiver to receive a CW signal. And if he was able to the trucker it had to be a wide band receiver. Plus why would a ham not have a BFO turned on if he was receiving CW.


Clarify "poor" receiver. I am thinking, judging by what he told me, he was listening on AM to verify the signal he was receiving, then switching to CW to send out a general call and listening for responses on CW. If a truck was transmitting, especially from very close, he would get a huge carrier, right? That way he knew it was an illegal signal since the trucker wasn't even supposed to be there to start with.

2. As I read the band plan the ham was just as illegal as these truckers.

How so? The ham was licensed to operate CW, was transmitting on CW, was ON the CW portion of the band and, therefore, perfectly legal. There is NO illegality in transmitting a CQ to OTHER LICENSED stations irregardless of the presence of an ILLEGAL station that has no business being there to start with. If it "bothers" said illegal station, too bad: he has no status under the law, thus no protection from the operations of legal stations. He is not even supposed to BE there to start with!
(Re: Riley Hollingsworth who addresed this issue previously)

I have to wonder if this ham has the proper class license to operate in this portion of the band. And if he knows how to used his radio correctly.

I can assure you that the ham has the highest class of license and was first licensed in 1955. He knows more about operating a radio than almost any two hams put together! :wink: I mean he has BUILT, serviced, and repaired more ham radios than I have sand in my shoes at the beach! Again, the purpose of sending out a CQ to another LEGAL station was to determine if the AM signal he was hearing was, indeed, the particular vehicle he was observing. There is nothing illegal or improper in doing so. If he received a reply from another legal station, then he would've engaged in a QSO with him. If not---and it turned out there was no reply----then he knew that the truck was transmitting on 28.085 AM and, therefore, breaking the law. My friend did nothing wrong and I, for one applaud his actions. We will be reading about that company soon!


kc0iv

[/i]

[kc0iv]

Originally Posted by RadioRay

How so? The ham was licensed to operate CW, was transmitting on CW, was ON the CW portion of the band and, therefore, perfectly legal. There is NO illegality in transmitting a CQ to OTHER LICENSED stations irregardless of the presence of an ILLEGAL station that has no business being there to start with. If it "bothers" said illegal station, too bad: he has no status under the law, thus no protection from the operations of legal stations. He is not even supposed to BE there to start with!
(Re: Riley Hollingsworth who addresed this issue previously)

OK RadioRay if this ham is all you say he is why in the H@LL would he not have a good filter? Something in the range of 100 - 500 Hz? I know I sure wouldn't think of operating CW with anything higher than a 500 Hz filter.

That illegal station would play H@LL on receiving a signal with a 3.5 KHz filter.

Again, the purpose of sending out a CQ to another LEGAL station was to determine if the AM signal he was hearing was, indeed, the particular vehicle he was observing. There is nothing illegal or improper in doing so. If he received a reply from another legal station, then he would've engaged in a QSO with him.

If he had had such a QSO as you claim he would would have been operating illegal. He would have know it was illegal to operated a AM signal in that portion and as such he was talking to a known illegal station. Remember RR he knew they were operating illegal by operating out-of-band.

If not---and it turned out there was no reply----then he knew that the truck was transmitting on 28.085 AM and, therefore, breaking the law. My friend did nothing wrong and I, for one applaud his actions. We will be reading about that company soon!

As I showed above he would have been operating illegal. Even by operating CW.

Unless you are now saying he was trying to talk to some station in another country. If was the case your friend had a real problem since that foreign station wouldn't have received him since the BFO would have been turned OFF.

Since you seem to keep saying you know Riley Hollingsworth ask him if it is legal to to talk to a illegal operation.

RadioRay I normally have respect for you but in this case I'm not sure if this really happened. Or at least not as as you described.


Have a great day.

kc0iv

[RadioRay]

In all honesty, I believe you are missing the whole point, or not understanding what he was doing. By sending out a CQ on CW (which is perfectly legal on that portion of the band, he was sending a general call to OTHER [/i]LEGAL stations inviting the other stations into QSO on CW, NOT on AM. Nothing illegal there! The truck was operating on 28.085 AM
which is against the law, of course, because he didn't have license to do so, else he wouldn't have been using phone there. It is possible to duplex between AM and CW (or SSB with an IC706--which my friend was using---simply by setting one frequency in ONE VFO on CW, the same frequency (with an offset on the other for AM). One would then simply "toggle" between the two modes. So! "Bobby" (not his real name) wasn't sure if this loud truck was actually on 28.085, but he was hearing this BIG AM signal there, so he decided to do a little test. Therefore, he set CW on one VFO and sent out a CQ to OTHER ham stations with the required offset. (NOT the truck). Actually, he was hoping he would get a response from the truck, and sure enough, the trucker said, 'Hey, little car, ya better quit doing that" (talking about the Morse signal HE was hearing in HIS receiver. Of course, the trucker would be unlikely to recognize Morse Code, much less READ it unless he, too, had studied it!

Nothing Bobby did was illegal. He may send out a CQ to other stations on frequencies and bands he (and YOU, and I) are authorized irregardless of the presence of an unlicensed bandit (the truck). IF you apply the principle of "illegality" to many DXers, we ALL would be illegal! :shock: I mean, look at the "pileup" where hundreds of stations often compete for that exotic station. We talk all over the top of each other just as soon as the DX station releases the mike. In the strictest sense, this is "interference to other stations! " But no one seems to mind!

This is probably MY fault, but I am not quite "digging" where you are coming from with this, and i am not clear on whether you are thinking that the ham is TALKING to the truck on AM (NO!) or whether you are postulating that another HAM is talking back to Bobby on AM. But, no, the truck was talking on AM to another truck following him up the road using AM. Bobby was listening (yes he was "fishing" for trucks talking out-of-band) and came across the two trucks together. He was not sure IF the truck was bleeding over onto 28.085, so he set up his radio so that he could receive AM (not transmit) on one VFO and CW on the other. This way he could toggle between BOTH VFO's, listening for return calls and the trucker on AM. The driver took the "bait" by telling him to quit--which is ludicrous since he had no business there to start with! :? While doing such is sneaky (and effective), it is not illegal because Bobby would've simply answered back to the other legal station and engaged in a CW QSO with him--even if he had had to move off a few khz to avoid the truck. *I* would send out CQ's on top of trucks, too, if I had been there.
There is no restriction on sending out CQ's over unauthorized stations because they are violating the law by their very presence and have no legal standing and no protection from the operations of legal stations engaged in the privileges they are given via license.

73

[Windwalker]

You know, it would actually be very easy to set up a type of field-strength meter and triangulation type of receiver at the weigh stations around the country. Without a lot of investment, they could pin-point illegal radios as the guys come into the scale. Not just the illegal ham radios, but the poosted power radios that started life as a legal radio. The FCC does a lot of "going by ERP" these days. (Effective Radiated Power) It would be entirely possible to set up a couple of antennas at the perimeter of the scale property and pin-point any truck coming into the scale. Even going down the road past the scale. Look what they've done with radar detectors. I believe it's coming. Only a matter of time.

[yoopr]

Originally Posted by Windwalker

You know, it would actually be very easy to set up a type of field-strength meter and triangulation type of receiver at the weigh stations around the country. Without a lot of investment, they could pin-point illegal radios as the guys come into the scale. Not just the illegal ham radios, but the poosted power radios that started life as a legal radio. The FCC does a lot of "going by ERP" these days. (Effective Radiated Power) It would be entirely possible to set up a couple of antennas at the perimeter of the scale property and pin-point any truck coming into the scale. Even going down the road past the scale. Look what they've done with radar detectors. I believe it's coming. Only a matter of time.

Scuze the Highjack but I've seen that road sign Windwalker somewhere in my trucking.
It's either Wyoming or Texas isn't it?? :P
I've seen it but can't place it. Am I right? Been meaning to ask you that for a LONG time.

[kc0iv]

Originally Posted by Windwalker

You know, it would actually be very easy to set up a type of field-strength meter and triangulation type of receiver at the weigh stations around the country. Without a lot of investment, they could pin-point illegal radios as the guys come into the scale. Not just the illegal ham radios, but the poosted power radios that started life as a legal radio. The FCC does a lot of "going by ERP" these days. (Effective Radiated Power) It would be entirely possible to set up a couple of antennas at the perimeter of the scale property and pin-point any truck coming into the scale. Even going down the road past the scale. Look what they've done with radar detectors. I believe it's coming. Only a matter of time.

Windwalker,

I think it would be pretty hard on 27MHz. The problem would be the phase shift at that freq. would be so small it would require some pretty good equipment. Second problem would be the size of the antenna for it to have the directivity to detect this phase shift. Plus the transmitter would have to be transmiting while in this very narrow field.

Using "ERP" could show someone in the area was transmitting illegal but it would still require checking each transmitter to determine which one was illegal. One possibility would be to require every trucker to "key" his/her transmitter while it was at a given distance from the scale house. But with "Pre-Pass" not many go through the scale house. Again this would require some pretty good equipment.

As far as radar detectors these have the advantage of operating at a very high frequencies. They are detecting the heterodyne oscillator used in the mixer circuit. Since the mixer creates three different signals one of which is the sum of the frequency. Since the tuned ciruit in a radar detector requires a very wide tuned circuit (or like most just a diode) they pass this heterodyne signal. Then using this signal the "detector-detector" sees this signal. Or they detect the beat frequency oscillator directly. Even these "detector-detector" can be defected by using a different mixer circuit. Or as some do just turning of the detector when a etector-detector" is seen.

As many would like the FCC to stop the illegal operation I just don't see it happening. Yes they will catch a few but as the old saying says "the cat is out-of-bag". As much as some disaprove many hams support this type of pperation by doing the mods on these radios. One has to remember this has been going on since the 60's.

kc0iv

[RadioRay]

And *we*, the other licensed folks are the ones who are being 'punished' for it. I won't get into what I think ought to be done with/to licensed hams who assist in this illegal operation :evil: Here's where I think this going.
*If* drastic action is not taken now, little by little, more and more, people will "fill up" the 10 Meter band with unlicensed activity. Then there will become a demand for more of "them funny channels". And the unscrupulous builders will provide them. We will find these clowns on
12 Meters (some already are there), and, years out, they will be on 15 Meters and so on. In my discussions with Riley (yes, I 'kinda' know him since his home town is 30 miles from me), we have talked about this very thing. This is when he told me that *something* is in the works to combat such a thing. Drivers will not like it, that's probably true--at least the ones who love the "export" radios. It will involve a specific ban on such equipment in trucks, maybe getting DOT agents into the act, allowing states to share fines (in order to encourage the DOT and state oficers to get involved---I don't know, but something is "up". I feel sure, from what I am told, that there is something going to be done. The legal obstacles and wrangles have to be worked out.

What we DO know is, the trucks are NOT to be operating outside the 40 channels and that includes that which is "OURS" (the ham bands). Drivers have the option of becoming licensed, of course, and we DO encourage that because mobile ham and trucking ARE a good fit!!!

73

[feederfred]

Nope, Brown doesn't have any restrictions on what we use. I run a Magnum S380 (4 finals) and a Texas Star 350HD, no problem. I know tons of FedEx people with a lot bigger set ups. As far as enforcement by the FCC, it's a joke. Take a look at their website. They NO LONGER routinely take complaints about CB radios. As far as export radios, the shops out here and on the net are full of them. "Radio inspectors", at the scale...sure, just what we need. Why not solve some real problems ? Seems there's a little jealousy involved here.

[RadioRay]

Here's the problem with that. If drivers with both companies are, indeed, operating illegal radios and amps, sooner or later, they are going to have a problem *If* they talk on 10 Meters without license. You see, both "brown" and FedEx received letters about drivers operating on 28.085. Both companies promised that they would stop it and responded to FCC's official correspondence with assurances that this would not happen again. They also assured FCC that they put into place a company policy against "10 Meter" radios or amps in their trucks. Now. If the drivers stay OUT of the ham bands, they probably won't have trouble. But if a driver gets reported to FCC AGAIN, then there's gonna be trouble both for the company AND the driver. That's when the polite warning will stop and enforcement WILL begin! :shock: I even have a copy of FexEx's company policy against "export" radios. UPS assured the Special Counsel for
Amateur Enforcement (FCC) that there was a policy now in place that restricted their trucks to strictly FCC-approved CB radios. I'll be sure to let my "friends" in certain places know that this policy is apparently not being followed along with a copy of this thread.


There is NO jealousy going on here. This is a matter of Federal law and the rights and privileges of other spectrum users. The Amateur Radio operators studied and took tests for the privilege of using various bands and modes with the expectation that such operation would be unfettered with unlicensed, untrained and unauthorized stations on their bands! The folks who just went out to Joe's Truck Stop and CB Shop didn't. The hams will not receive letters for operating on the 10 Meter band. The drivers who DO operate on 10 Meters can receive fines of up to $10,000 PER occurance IF they get caught after being warned NOT to talk out of band. Once again, most of us don't care what the CB folks do on 11 Meters--until they start venturing into the ham bands. Then it does become a matter of our concern.

As to FCC's "non-enforcement"? Maybe a glance at this will show that they aren't so much a "joke" as you might think.

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FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION ENFORCEMENT BUREAU SOUTH CENTRAL REGION Dallas Office 9330 LBJ Freeway, #1170 Dallas, Texas 75243 September 12, 2006 Jimmie Dewayne Richards Case Number: EB-06-DL-122 Irving, Texas Document Number: W20063250005 WARNING FOR UNLICENSED OPERATION The Dallas Office received information that you were operating a station in the Citizen Band (CB) with excessive power. On August 8, 2006, agents from this office inspected your station. The inspection of your station showed that you were using a Cobra 200 GTL DX transceiver. This transceiver has not been certificated by the FCC for use at a CB station. Thus, any operation of this station would be in violation of 47 U.S.C. S 301. Pursuant to Section 95.404 of the FCC's Rules ("Rules"), you do not need an individual license to operate a CB station, provided you operate your CB station in accordance with the Rules. Pursuant to Section 95.409 of the FCC's Rules, you must use an FCC certificated CB transmitter at your CB station. Use of a transmitter which is not FCC certificated voids the authority to operate the station. Therefore, any person operating a CB transmitter that is not FCC certificated or that has been modified internally or who attaches an external radio frequency power amplifier (linear amplifier) to a CB transmitter is by rule an unlicensed operator and is subject to severe penalties. The FCC presumes that you have used a linear or other external RF power amplifier if it is in your possession or on your premises. The FCC also presumes that you have used a linear or other external RF power amplifier if there is other evidence, such as on-scene monitoring equipment or power measurements that suggest you have been operating a CB station with excessive power. Violation of these Rules also voids the authority to operate a CB station. In addition, the Rules prohibit communicating or attempting to communicate with any CB station more than 250 kilometers away or installing a fixed antenna more than 60 feet above the ground or more than 20 feet higher than the highest point of the building or tree on which it is mounted. USE OF A NON-CERTIFIED CB TRANSMITTER, A MODIFIED CB TRANSMITTER, A POWER AMPLIFICATION DEVICE, OR IMPERMISSIBLY HIGH ANTENNA IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED. You are hereby warned that operation of radio transmitting equipment without a valid FCC authorization or license is a violation of Section 301 of the Communications Act of 1934, as amended, and may subject the operator to substantial monetary fines, in rem arrest action against the offending radio equipment, and criminal sanctions including imprisonment. Because unlicensed operation creates a danger of interference to important radio communications services and may subject the operator to severe penalties, this warning emphasizes the importance of complying strictly with these legal requirements. Section 302(b) of the Act provides "No person shall manufacture, import, sell, offer for sale, or ship devices or home electronic equipment and systems, or use devices, which fail to comply with regulations promulgated pursuant to this section." Section 2.803(a)(1) of the Rules provides that "...no person shall sell or lease, or offer for sale or lease (including advertising for sale or lease), or import, ship or distribute for the purpose of selling or leasing or offering for sale or lease, any radio frequency device unless: (1) In the case of a device subject to certification, such device has been authorized by the Commission in accordance with the rules in this chapter and is properly identified and labeled..." The Cobra 200 GTL DX transceiver is not authorized by the Commission and as such you are warned that you may not sell or lease, or offer for sale or lease (including advertising for sale or lease) the Cobra 200 GTL DX transceiver. You have ten (10) days from the date of this notice to respond with any evidence that your station is now in compliance with the Rules. Your response should be sent to the address in the letterhead and reference the listed case and document number. Under the Privacy Act of 1974, 5 U.S.C. S 552a(e)(3), we are informing you that the Commission's staff will use all relevant material information before it to determine what, if any, enforcement action is required to ensure your compliance with FCC Rules. This will include any information that you disclose in your reply. You may contact this office if you have any questions. James D. Wells District Director Dallas Office Attachments: Excerpts from the Communications Act of 1934, As Amended Enforcement Bureau, "Inspection Fact Sheet", July 2003 Jimmie Dewayne Richards 3201 Dartmouth Dr. Irving, Texas 75062 TX 04508466 DOB 11-09-1954 47 C.F.R. S 95.404. 47 C.F.R. S 95.409. 47 C.F.R. S 95.404. See 47 C.F.R. SS 95.409, 95.411. 47 C.F.R. SS 95.408, 95.413. 47 U.S.C. S 301. See 47 U.S.C. SS 401, 501, 503, 510. 47 U.S.C. S 302a(b). 47 C.F.R. S 2.803(a)(1)
************************************************** ***********

There are some more against CB operators including "freebanding", amplifiers, non-approved equipment, fines to truck stops for selling "10 Meter radios. While FCC used[/] to be pretty inactive WRT CB, it is not so now because there have been so many complaints, and they are actually going after violators more than before! Even those base stations truckers fuss about so much!

The use of the "10 Meter" band by truckers without license is against the law. Period. And I am happy to hear that FCC IS in the process of doing something about it. It has nothing to do with "jealousy" or just being against the trucking industry. It is about right and wrong, and the privileges earned by licensed people. Those who want such privileges they are stealing from others now may earn them, too, instead of filching them!

RR

[kc0iv]

RadioRay,

After reading the last 6 months of FCC Amateur Radio Enforcement Logs (http://www.arrl.org/news/enforcement_logs) it would appear there are far more complaints about hams than there are for these illegal radios. What I find disturbing is the number of licensed hams that use illegal equipment or operate in portions of the amateur bands for which they are not licensed. Many of these complaints are by Extra Class who should know better.

While there has always been some complaints there seems to be many more the last few years. Without doing a study two things appear to be a leading causes for these increases. (1) The change from the requirement to appear before the FCCs for testing. I know there are many exams given that just are not real test. Yes they answers are right but I have seem testers tell the guy "are you sure you want to submit this -- Or do you want to go back to your seat and look at these some more". Hint you going to fail this test if you submit it like it is.

(2) The reduction in the requirement of knowing the material for the class of license. When you can go down and buy a book or download it on the web and have both the questions and answers (including the detractors) all one has to do is memorize the material.

Until hams get their act together how can they complain about illegal radios and illegal operation by CBers? To come on here and complain really isn't being honest.

I for one have refused to take the Extra Class test because I feel it is a joke. I should have taken years ago but I never thought it would come down to the level it has. I'll just keep my Advanced Class which I took before the FCCs. All one has to do is look at the number of Extra Class and it's not hard to see the test has been made easier. And I won't get into the reduction of the code requirement.

kc0iv