[LightsChromeHorsepower]

Originally Posted by BanditsCousin

Switching gears to education in 5...4...3...2...

I'm not sure he's educatable.

If you talk to our good neighbor, Mr. Booth, tell him to check out my new avatar. Bumper stickers are $3.00 each & I got tee shirts coming.

And jumping this thread totally off the tracks-

I was checking out the Cal Jobs website last night, a truck driving school around Sacramento wants to hire an instructor- for 12 bucks an hour. Would any of you trust somebody making that little to teach somebody how to drive an 80,000 pound truck down the highway?

[mike3fan]

Originally Posted by LightsChromeHorsepower

If you talk to our good neighbor, Mr. Booth, tell him to check out my new avatar. Bumper stickers are $3.00 each & I got tee shirts coming.

I guess I'll take 10 of those stickers and $30 bucks, you are paying us to take that crap right?

[Dejanh]

Originally Posted by LightsChromeHorsepower

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People are scared of the unknown and expecially scared if more and more lies are piled up into this conversation.

Mike, I have expirienced health care service in other countries, Croatia for one, and in the ,,anything&everything'' section of this forum, i have explained this clearly. My parents have done many procedures there and check this out, EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE AMERICAN, they have payed the same cost as their regular citizens. You cannot simply blast everything that you may be against expecially if you have not expirienced it.

If your whole life you have been tought one thing, that will be the only thing you know. It is very different when you look at the things from the outside looking in, then from the inside. You dont know how much we are overpaying for something utill you compare it with something else.

$4500 for a 20min.MRI is not too much, its a waay too much no matter if you are Republican or Democrat.

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

Originally Posted by mike3fan

I guess I'll take 10 of those stickers and $30 bucks, you are paying us to take that crap right?

Just send me your address & I'll get your "package" in the mail.

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

Originally Posted by Dejanh

If your whole life you have been tought one thing, that will be the only thing you know. It is very different when you look at the things from the outside looking in, then from the inside. .

It's called provincialism. We seem to awash in it in this country. I was lucky. I got to visit 15 foreign countries as a teenager, with teachers there to help me place what I was seeing in context. I've since visited a few others on my own as an adult. Having just the most basic comprehension of other cultures been both a blessing and a burden all through my life. In some ways I think it would be easier if I could forget all that I have seen and just listen to talk radio for my education. I would be a he** of a lot more certain about everything............even though I would be wrong!

[GMAN]

We already have rationed healthcare in this country if you are on public healthcare. Government sponsored insurance already limits how may prescriptions they will pay for per month. That is not likely to change with the Obama healthcare system.

There are those who use the emergency room for their healthcare needs. Some are serious and others go there to be treated for a cold. I know since I have been in the emergency room on a number of occasions with my wife and experienced it first hand. Much of our current healthcare costs come from illegals going to our emergency rooms. I know this due to family members who work in healthcare. I have also seen this first hand as well as talking with healthcare workers while in the hospital with my wife. Illegals are on the verge of bankrupting many hospitals across this country. It should not be up to the U.S. government to provide healthcare to illegals. It is time for our politicians to find their backbone and do the right thing.

I have spoken to a number of Canadians about their healthcare. With rare exceptions most think it is great unless you are chronically ill or need a major surgical procedure. You may get it or not. And you don't have to take my word for it. Many have been interviewed on TV over the years and there are thousands who come to this country for surgical procedures each year. There are numerous stories that have been reported on the news.

As far as taxes and the Obama spending binge are concerned. If you think that this administration or any other for that matter, can increase the size of government without raising taxes then you are very naive and don't understand how the world works. Any time you add a bureaucracy such as the healthcare plan to our government you WILL increase taxes. According to some figures that I have read the Obama stimulus plan brings all the taxes up to about 60% of what we earn. The healthcare proposal will only increase taxes further. Simple logistics will tell you that when you add 40 or 50 million people's healthcare costs to the public budget you will need to raise taxes to pay for it. This country is on the verge of bankruptcy as it is. I have NEVER known of any government proposal to meet or be less than what was proposed. It is usually several times the estimate. They use lower estimates so that the American people will buy their tax program.

Obama promised no new taxes for anyone making less than $250,000/year. No one with any common sense would have bought into that, but millions apparently did. This government has always been primarily supported by the middle class. That will not change unless the way in which the government raises revenue changes. Obama has promised to tax the coal industry into oblivion. We have many coal power plants across the country. Each tax increase imposed by them will be passed on to the consumer. That is mostly the middle class. Other taxes he has in the works will likely include an increase on fuel taxes. When does it end? When will those of you who want to live off the government begin to understand that the government is us. The government has no business deciding how or where we get our healthcare. There are many other instances where the government has decided to interfere in private business and that has never worked out for the better.

Healthcare is expensive. Nationalizing it is not the answer. Another government run agency is not the answer. If you want things to cost less then we can make changes to the industry that will actually work. We can take healthcare decisions out of the hands of the insurance industry and the government. Healthcare decisions should be made by the patient and their doctor. The more people who get involved in the decision process means that costs will increase. Tort reform is another way to reduce costs. Limiting how and when lawsuits can take place and the amount is one way to reduce costs. Another is to keep the government out of the decision making process. One other thing that will reduce costs over night is to send all these illegals back to where they came. This one thing alone could reduce costs by many millions of dollars over night. Fixing the problem isn't complicated. All it takes is the will. When I was growing up most people went to their doctor and paid for their visit out of their own pocket. If they were given a prescription they went to the pharmacy, had it filled and paid for it out of their own pocket. You see, by having the government and insurance companies paying for doctor visits and prescriptions reduces competition and raises costs. If we all had to pay for our prescriptions we would see a dramatic decrease in prescription costs.

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

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[Dejanh]

Originally Posted by GMAN

We already have rationed healthcare in this country if you are on public healthcare. Government sponsored insurance already limits how may prescriptions they will pay for per month. That is not likely to change with the Obama healthcare system.

My brother has a Celebral Palsy and has Medicaid. He recieved a booklet which explained to him what doctors accept medicaid and where he may choose to go. It just happend that pretty much every doctor takes Medicaid in this program but since my brother is lazy he never went to see one ever since he turned 18.

It's not rationed, its about who accepts the program, in this case Medicaid.

Originally Posted by GMAN

There are those who use the emergency room for their healthcare needs. Some are serious and others go there to be treated for a cold. I know since I have been in the emergency room on a number of occasions with my wife and experienced it first hand. Much of our current healthcare costs come from illegals going to our emergency rooms. I know this due to family members who work in healthcare. I have also seen this first hand as well as talking with healthcare workers while in the hospital with my wife. Illegals are on the verge of bankrupting many hospitals across this country. It should not be up to the U.S. government to provide healthcare to illegals. It is time for our politicians to find their backbone and do the right thing.

It is easy to blame the illegals for everything. I have also been to many EM's with my parents and I am yet to see one, really. In Charlotte we have a'lot of clinics who take people without insurance and they are thriving. I know since i went there for my regular check-ups. $120 complete blood work. Many of those illegals you are referring too built this country for minimum wages. Most of their money is spent here and THEY PAY TAXES BUT, cannot do taxes at the beggining of the year because our government would not issue them the papers, so they end up not recieving their refund at all.

If you sent every illegal person out of this country then WE WOULD NOT BE WHAT WE ARE. Hitler tried it with Jews, it didnt work. Illegals made us who we are. Chinese built our railroad up west.

Originally Posted by GMAN

I have spoken to a number of Canadians about their healthcare. With rare exceptions most think it is great unless you are chronically ill or need a major surgical procedure. You may get it or not. And you don't have to take my word for it. Many have been interviewed on TV over the years and there are thousands who come to this country for surgical procedures each year. There are numerous stories that have been reported on the news.

Whoever told you this, told you a lie. If you need surgery you will get it. They dont run concetration camps up there in Canada Mike, common. People who come here for their surgeries better be rich. I have yet to hear this nonsence. Only thing i hear is people jumping borders from here to there, not the other way around.

Originally Posted by GMAN

As far as taxes and the Obama spending binge are concerned. If you think that this administration or any other for that matter, can increase the size of government without raising taxes then you are very naive and don't understand how the world works. Any time you add a bureaucracy such as the healthcare plan to our government you WILL increase taxes. According to some figures that I have read the Obama stimulus plan brings all the taxes up to about 60% of what we earn. The healthcare proposal will only increase taxes further. Simple logistics will tell you that when you add 40 or 50 million people's healthcare costs to the public budget you will need to raise taxes to pay for it. This country is on the verge of bankruptcy as it is. I have NEVER known of any government proposal to meet or be less than what was proposed. It is usually several times the estimate. They use lower estimates so that the American people will buy their tax program.

Taxes that would be raised cannot compare to the money we are bleeding as a nation right now. All of these bailouts and whatnot have to be payed for somehow. Americans want EVERYTHING for nothing. Well, if we want bases on every continent and stupid wars, we have to pay for it.....

Originally Posted by GMAN

Obama promised no new taxes for anyone making less than $250,000/year. No one with any common sense would have bought into that, but millions apparently did. This government has always been primarily supported by the middle class. That will not change unless the way in which the government raises revenue changes. Obama has promised to tax the coal industry into oblivion. We have many coal power plants across the country. Each tax increase imposed by them will be passed on to the consumer. That is mostly the middle class. Other taxes he has in the works will likely include an increase on fuel taxes. When does it end? When will those of you who want to live off the government begin to understand that the government is us. The government has no business deciding how or where we get our healthcare. There are many other instances where the government has decided to interfere in private business and that has never worked out for the better.

Rush Limbaugh politics. I hear him say how Obama wants to mandate circuimcision as well.
If you think that i fall under that category of wanting to live off of the government, then you are mistaken. I never once recieved anything and have worked really hard to have what I have, and i can tell you this. I payed taxes under Bush as well, as a matter of fact most of my taxes went up, including property tax as well as my fuel tax, my sales tax and my truck registration too. North Carolina had a REpublicans in charge.

I respect you too much to put you up in the same category i put in alot of these idiots i see on TV. Pretty much everything you say i get but only because i know that we have been thought to think that way. If you only get to live in Australia or Switzerland for a year, you would come back a brand new you. I put my life on it.

[GMAN]

Originally Posted by Dejanh

My brother has a Celebral Palsy and has Medicaid. He recieved a booklet which explained to him what doctors accept medicaid and where he may choose to go. It just happend that pretty much every doctor takes Medicaid in this program but since my brother is lazy he never went to see one ever since he turned 18.

It's not rationed, its about who accepts the program, in this case Medicaid.

I have known a couple of people who have been on the government program and have a neighbor who works for one of the insurance companies who administer the program in my state. The main thing they ration are prescriptions under their program. For the most part they do receive the medical care providing they have a doctor in the area who will accept the insurance. If not the patient could have to drive to another city to receive medical care. The patient has little to say about any doctor they may want to see. Many of those who accept medicaid are foreign nationals. Patients are also discharged prematurely from hospitals in some cases. They have really tightened up on some of their spending in recent years. Before you can go to a specialist you must have pre approval. If the doctor doesn't receive the approval prior to your appointment then you cannot see the doctor. It is a bureaucratic maze. At this time the main problem is with prescriptions, at least in my area. It seems to me as though they spend $10 to save $1.

Originally Posted by Dejanh

It is easy to blame the illegals for everything. I have also been to many EM's with my parents and I am yet to see one, really. In Charlotte we have a'lot of clinics who take people without insurance and they are thriving. I know since i went there for my regular check-ups. $120 complete blood work. Many of those illegals you are referring too built this country for minimum wages. Most of their money is spent here and THEY PAY TAXES BUT, cannot do taxes at the beginning of the year because our government would not issue them the papers, so they end up not receiving their refund at all.

I don't blame the illegals for everything. They are a major contributing factor. Illegals or those who are here on work visa's don't pay taxes. I have customers who employ them. There is also a county about 30 miles from me that has a Hispanic population of more than 30%. To the west there is also a large Hispanic population. While it seems more of a problem for the border states there are pockets across the country where there are large groups of both legal and illegals. I believe those who come here legally don't have to pay taxes for a certain amount of time according to one shipper whom I know who mostly employs Mexicans. And much of their money is sent back to their homeland. They may pay sales tax on purchases but it is my understanding that they are not required to pay income or social security taxes as long as they don't exceed the time limit. And even though they don't contribute to social security they may still collect. They can also collect food stamps and other government assistance. We pay for all of that with higher taxes.

Originally Posted by Dejanh

If you sent every illegal person out of this country then WE WOULD NOT BE WHAT WE ARE. Hitler tried it with Jews, it didn't work. Illegals made us who we are. Chinese built our railroad up west.

Legal immigrants have made great contributions to this nation. I don't have a problem with those who go through the legal process to get here. My problem is with those who come here illegally. Most of the Jews that Hitler killed were natives of Germany. He just needed someone to blame for the woes of Germany. Since many Jews were land owners and business owners they were a good target when the economy was in the toilet. The world was in a depression. He made it appear that the Jews were the cause. When you say something long enough and with conviction some people will eventually believe you.

Originally Posted by Dejanh

Whoever told you this, told you a lie. If you need surgery you will get it. They dont run concetration camps up there in Canada Mike, common. People who come here for their surgeries better be rich. I have yet to hear this nonsence. Only thing i hear is people jumping borders from here to there, not the other way around.

It was Canadians in Toronto who told me about not always being able to get needed surgeries. There have also been stories on the national media stating the same thing. The only time I have heard about Americans crossing the border into Canada or Mexico is to buy their prescriptions. They can save a lot of money by going to either country.
[/quote]

Originally Posted by Dejanh

Taxes that would be raised cannot compare to the money we are bleeding as a nation right now. All of these bailouts and whatnot have to be payed for somehow. Americans want EVERYTHING for nothing. Well, if we want bases on every continent and stupid wars, we have to pay for it.....

You are right about all the reckless spending. What we are spending on the wars is minimal as to what we spend on various social programs. Many Americans do expect a lot for nothing. There was a time when an American would rather starve than ask for a handout from the government or anyone else for that matter. Unfortunately, there are too many today who think that they deserve a paycheck or other services from the government. That attitude is killing this country. We will pay a very heavy price for allowing the government to take care of us.

Originally Posted by Dejanh

Rush Limbaugh politics. I hear him say how Obama wants to mandate circumcision as well.
If you think that i fall under that category of wanting to live off of the government, then you are mistaken. I never once received anything and have worked really hard to have what I have, and i can tell you this. I payed taxes under Bush as well, as a matter of fact most of my taxes went up, including property tax as well as my fuel tax, my sales tax and my truck registration too. North Carolina had a Republicans in charge.

I respect you too much to put you up in the same category i put in alot of these idiots i see on TV. Pretty much everything you say i get but only because i know that we have been thought to think that way. If you only get to live in Australia or Switzerland for a year, you would come back a brand new you. I put my life on it.

I haven't heard anything about circumcision. I wasn't directing what I said at you. My taxes also went up this year. The more services we demand from the government the more taxes will need to be collected to pay for them. I prefer paying my own way with my own money. I can do a much better job of spending my money than any government entity. And one thing that I can guarantee is that I can get much more for my money that the government.

As I stated earlier, there are things which need to be addressed in our healthcare. Socialization is not the answer. I don't want the government that involved in my life. I have to deal with their nonsense enough as it is.

[LightsChromeHorsepower]

Originally Posted by GMAN

We already have rationed healthcare in this country if you are on public healthcare.

We already have single payer if you are a member of Congress. Why shouldn't our elected officials get the same care as the rest of us? Maybe what we get isn't good enough for them?

Government sponsored insurance already limits how may prescriptions they will pay for per month. That is not likely to change with the Obama healthcare system.

What "government sponsored insurance" are you referring to, what are the limits and how many people actually have an issue with them?

There are those who use the emergency room for their healthcare needs. Some are serious and others go there to be treated for a cold. I know since I have been in the emergency room on a number of occasions with my wife and experienced it first hand. Much of our current healthcare costs come from illegals going to our emergency rooms. I know this due to family members who work in healthcare. I have also seen this first hand as well as talking with healthcare workers while in the hospital with my wife. Illegals are on the verge of bankrupting many hospitals across this country. It should not be up to the U.S. government to provide healthcare to illegals. It is time for our politicians to find their backbone and do the right thing.

Now you are trying to blame it all on the Mexicans. It's really beneath me to answer this, but I'll point out that first, for the amount of money we spend relative to other nations we should be able to afford to treat every illegal immigrant with ease, second that other nations have equally large populations of illegal immigrants and manage to offer them better care than we do. Check this story out for a sense of just how ugly things have become; How L.A.'s massive free clinic event came together -- latimes.com

I have spoken to a number of Canadians about their healthcare. With rare exceptions most think it is great unless you are chronically ill or need a major surgical procedure. You may get it or not. And you don't have to take my word for it. Many have been interviewed on TV over the years and there are thousands who come to this country for surgical procedures each year. There are numerous stories that have been reported on the news.

There are way more Americans traveling abroad for health care than there are Canadians coming here. "Medical Tourism" as it's called is expected to reach 40 billion dollars per year shortly. Do you think that is an indication that we have the world's best health care? When we have our citizens going to places like Mexico and Thailand for health care to the tune of 40 bil a year? Here's a link; http://www.patientsbeyondborders.com/media-room/faq.php

And for what it's worth, one of our drivers quit a couple of months ago. His wife is a Canadian citizen. Any guesses as to why they moved to BC?

As far as taxes and the Obama spending binge are concerned. If you think that this administration or any other for that matter, can increase the size of government without raising taxes then you are very naive and don't understand how the world works. Any time you add a bureaucracy such as the healthcare plan to our government you WILL increase taxes. According to some figures that I have read the Obama stimulus plan brings all the taxes up to about 60% of what we earn. The healthcare proposal will only increase taxes further. Simple logistics will tell you that when you add 40 or 50 million people's healthcare costs to the public budget you will need to raise taxes to pay for it. This country is on the verge of bankruptcy as it is. I have NEVER known of any government proposal to meet or be less than what was proposed. It is usually several times the estimate. They use lower estimates so that the American people will buy their tax program.

What too many people don't seem to understand is that the amount we spend on health care is not going to increase if we change to a single payer system. Right now 30% of every dollar spent on health care goes into the pockets of the insurance industry. How could government be any less efficient than that? Any additional taxes you pay to fund health care will be offset by not having to buy insurance. In fact, there should be a net savings throughout the economy as a whole. Businesses will be more profitable because they will not have to provide health benefits to current or past employees. The only people who will lose are the insurance industry fat cats and the politicians that they contribute billions to. If you have a problem with that, it's your problem.

Obama promised no new taxes for anyone making less than $250,000/year. No one with any common sense would have bought into that, but millions apparently did. This government has always been primarily supported by the middle class. That will not change unless the way in which the government raises revenue changes. Obama has promised to tax the coal industry into oblivion. We have many coal power plants across the country. Each tax increase imposed by them will be passed on to the consumer. That is mostly the middle class. Other taxes he has in the works will likely include an increase on fuel taxes. When does it end? When will those of you who want to live off the government begin to understand that the government is us. The government has no business deciding how or where we get our healthcare. There are many other instances where the government has decided to interfere in private business and that has never worked out for the better.

I thought we were talking about health care. What do taxes on coal plants have to do with health care?

Healthcare is expensive. Nationalizing it is not the answer.

Every other industrialized nation has publicly funded health care. They all spend substantially less than we do. They all have measurably healthier populaces. It seems to me that what we are doing is not the answer. Unless you like spending more money for an inferior product.

Another government run agency is not the answer.

Every other industrialized nation has publicly funded health care. They all spend substantially less than we do. They all have measurably healthier populaces. It seems to me that what we are doing is not the answer. Unless you like spending more money for an inferior product.


If you want things to cost less then we can make changes to the industry that will actually work. We can take healthcare decisions out of the hands of the insurance industry and the government. Healthcare decisions should be made by the patient and their doctor. The more people who get involved in the decision process means that costs will increase.

That is exactly what a properly structured single payer system would do. It works in every other industrialized nation on the planet.

Tort reform is another way to reduce costs. Limiting how and when lawsuits can take place and the amount is one way to reduce costs.

I'm not opposed to intelligent tort reform. But I don't want doctors getting away with blatant negligence either.

Another is to keep the government out of the decision making process.

If you are really that unhappy with the processes of government, why don't you try to make government more effective? We desperately need an effective government for many purposes including managing the costs of our health care system.

One other thing that will reduce costs over night is to send all these illegals back to where they came. This one thing alone could reduce costs by many millions of dollars over night.

Blaming the Mexicans again. Will it be Blacks & Jews next?

Fixing the problem isn't complicated. All it takes is the will. When I was growing up most people went to their doctor and paid for their visit out of their own pocket. If they were given a prescription they went to the pharmacy, had it filled and paid for it out of their own pocket. You see, by having the government and insurance companies paying for doctor visits and prescriptions reduces competition and raises costs. If we all had to pay for our prescriptions we would see a dramatic decrease in prescription costs.

When you were growing up, health care was almost absurdly simple as compared to what it is today. There were no multi-million dollar diagnostic machines, no medicines that cost billions of dollars to develop. New diseases have developed and the incidence of others has increased dramatically because of the many changes in how we live. If you want to go back to a 1950's standard of care you could get 1950's costs. You would also get 1950's mortality rates.

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