Driver criminally convicted after doing a good job
 

Ex-Whole Foods driver falsified logs

By eTrucker Staff

A former driver for Whole Foods Market Group was convicted on charges of falsifying his logbooks in connection with a deadly accident with a bus that killed five people, according to the U.S. Department of Transportation's Inspector General's Office.

Michael J. Kozlowski was convicted May 13 after a two-day trial in U.S. District Court in Madison, Wis., on five counts of false statements regarding his record-of-duty status or daily logbooks, DOT-OIG says. According to court documents, it was alleged that from Aug. 31 to Oct. 11, 2005, Kozlowski falsified his daily logbooks by claiming that he had been in the sleeper berth for the required 10 hours when it later was determined that was not true, DOT-OIG says.

On Oct. 16, 2005, Kozlowski provided his daily logs, which were falsified, to a Wisconsin State Patrol Officer after being involved in a deadly accident in Eau Claire County, Wis., according to DOT-OIG. Kozlowski’s semi-tractor had veered off Interstate 94, tipped over and slid down the interstate on its side. Within seconds, a bus carrying the Chippewa Falls High School band members and staff struck the truck, causing the deaths of five passengers.

DOT-OIG says that in a post–trial interview, the jury foreman commented that the jury was convinced by GPS and electronic toll booth data that showed Kozlowski was driving during periods he claimed to be in the sleeper berth. Kozlowski’s sentencing has been set for July 24, according to DOT-OIG, which conducted the investigation.

Ex-Whole Foods driver falsified logs - eTrucker

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This is not something that is new to the industry. I think most of us while going through training were taught to be very prudent when logging, & stay within your HOS. Falsifying implies that he intentionally manipulated his logs to show that he was compliant with HOS. So I am not sure how your title "Driver criminally convicted after doing a good job." fits in with fraudulant logs. It really is not that hard to run legal, it is very well spelled out and before you get your CDL you are supposed to know HOS. I really do feel for this guy, but if he did falsify his logs he was wrong, period. Five people are dead and a driver who may have beed tired, fatigued, or worse was behind the wheel. Five times in forty days shows that he intentionally tried to get away with beating the HOS laws. Once may have been an oversight, but five shows a pattern of deception.
Looking back I am certain he feels those few hours he may have gained behing the wheel are probably not worth it. The few $$$ he earned are now going to go to attorneys and the families of the victims. His family may lose everything they have and he will more than likely be separated from them for a very long time. The end result just does not justify the little gain he made by not being HOS compliant. Maybe he would have lost his job for not taking a load or a late delivery, but those are far better options than what he is facing now, for sure.
It is sad that drivers feel they have to cheat to make a dollar, the system is flawed, and drivers and trucking companies are equal in the blame. Drivers for running illegal, and the companies for asking them to do so. But as long as there are drivers willing and companies that will turn a blind eye to it, things like this will continue to happen.

ummm.. where does he do the good job at?? and that is a major falsification.. he put he was in the sleeper berth while he was driving and going through tolls.. this isn't like he was in the truck stop buying food when he should of been on line one instead of two...

and i will admit there is times i run over my 14 and i usually am extremely carefully after that.. and if i do run over my 14 it's no more than for 15 mins or so...

That's a great sermon. Do you preach on the side?

I don't know his state of mind that day, but at least four of those falsifications had nothing to do with it. I do know this, you have never driven tired and I commend you for that.

I guess you never had a day when you were poking along, stopping every hour to check the internet or trim your eyebrows, and then later you just drew one line across as if you had driven four or five hours straight. In fact, you aren't like all the people Rutherford was talking about at all. If you get to a consignee seven hours before unloading, by golly you go some place and wait 10 hours before driving again. You are great.

I totally admire guys who fill out their logs by looking down at their wris****ch instead of taking their calculators and dividing the miles by a legal speed and drawing that. Of course, that's the way I do it...

Hmpf. Do you go to his church?

EZ pass, it' not like his toll receipt didn't match up. You're another one, you wouldn't somehow make 7 hours in the sleeper look like 10 so you didn't have to spend 10 hours in the middle of the following day doing nothing, certainly not sleeping. How much time doing paperwork would you say you log on line 4 in one week? (we wouldn't want anyone to get tired, you know?)

The first church of the wholly self-righteous. I'd like you guys to call Rutherford, he knows a lot but I don't think he has ever heard of you.

WTF?? im lost..

Rutherford made it sound like it's pretty normal that the logs don't match the reality. Over a 40 day period, they only found or made note of 5 discrepancies. He didn't have an accident for 40 days, he had an accident only one day. Maybe he was tired, huh? But, Rutherford says everybody drives tired at one time or another.

:bow: I just think he needs to meet you and sportster65.

Ex-Whole Foods driver falsified logs

By eTrucker Staff

A former driver for Whole Foods Market Group was convicted on charges of falsifying his logbooks in connection with a deadly accident with a bus that killed five people, according to the U.S. Department of Transportation's Inspector General's Office.

Michael J. Kozlowski was convicted May 13 after a two-day trial in U.S. District Court in Madison, Wis., on five counts of false statements regarding his record-of-duty status or daily logbooks, DOT-OIG says. According to court documents, it was alleged that from Aug. 31 to Oct. 11, 2005, Kozlowski falsified his daily logbooks by claiming that he had been in the sleeper berth for the required 10 hours when it later was determined that was not true, DOT-OIG says.

On Oct. 16, 2005, Kozlowski provided his daily logs, which were falsified, to a Wisconsin State Patrol Officer after being involved in a deadly accident in Eau Claire County, Wis., according to DOT-OIG. Kozlowski’s semi-tractor had veered off Interstate 94, tipped over and slid down the interstate on its side. Within seconds, a bus carrying the Chippewa Falls High School band members and staff struck the truck, causing the deaths of five passengers.

DOT-OIG says that in a post–trial interview, the jury foreman commented that the jury was convinced by GPS and electronic toll booth data that showed Kozlowski was driving during periods he claimed to be in the sleeper berth. Kozlowski’s sentencing has been set for July 24, according to DOT-OIG, which conducted the investigation.




I don't see why falsifying a log book on other occasions should have anything to do with whether he was guilty on this occasion. I understand that it could be used to show a pattern of behavior, but whether he falsified his log book or not on this particular occasion should have been more the issue than what he did during the last 40 days. Fatigue may or may not have had anything to do with this accident. The way the current hos are set up it would not be out of the question for anyone to be fatigued and still be running compliant. It doesn't matter whether you run compliant or have EOBR's, it is still up to the driver to decide when he is too tired to run. There could have been other factors involved in this incident. If a driver is involved in an accident and his log book is out of order then it is an easy conviction whether the driver is actually at fault or not. Fatigue is not something you can regulate.

still lost... i'm just going off your title which says.. "Driver Criminally Convicted after doing a good job", i don't understand your argument if it don't goes with the title..

It was irony. Of course you didn't get it, the only thing you've ever done wrong is to go 15 minutes over you 14, most certainly because every time you pulled into a rest area it was full and guys were parking next to 'no parking' signs. The thread and the title were intended for the mere mortals amongst us.

Fact-o-the-matter is - while a majority of drivers "fudge" on their logs - this guy happened to KILL FIVE PEOPLE and had his logs AUDITED as a result. While I'm pretty damn sure he never intended to slide his rig into a school bus, doing so was the reason he was audited.

"Witch Hunt"? Bet yer azz, and deservedly so. I wonder what line he was SUPPOSED TO actually BE ON, when he mowed down the school bus.

I'm a newb, still in school - so WTF do I know anyway. Our instructor told us he's not going to TEACH US how to cheat the logs - but that he might drop (thinly veiled) hints on how to "log creatively for maximum profit".

There are BLATANT CHEATERS, and there are folks who fudge a little, to get the job done.

In a "perfect world", shippers would load appointments on time, receivers would unload on time, dispatchers would look at your logs/QC and dispatch correctly (factoring in weather, traffic conditions, remaining hours, etc.) and FMCSA would return the spilt provisions so that "reasonable drivers" could take a 2-3 hour nap (instead of a full 8) to avoid rush hour and still move the 14 hour stop time.

The incident above, only gives FMSCA more ammo to require carriers to put in onboard computers and institute Zero Tolerance compliance. Maybe if our hours are TRULY VERIFIABLE, they WILL bring back the pre-05 split conditions. Regardless of us being "Super-Truckers", I BELIEVE THAT working for more than 14 hours (without a nap/rest) creates TIRED DRIVERS - and that Tired Drivers are DANGEROUS DRIVERS.

I've done plenty of long distance driving in a 36K lb. bus (personally owned/no logs), and have been forced to drive INTO EXHAUSTION to get the job done - stopping only when I KNEW I had reached the limits of my ability to continue to drive SAFELY ("Mans got to know his limitations" - Dirty Harry).

Even the "saints" among us can probably not claim 100% perfect logs. I'm no saint myself - but DO plan on running as close to compliant as humanly possible. But, if you're rolling through toll-booths while claiming lines 1 & 2, yer gonna get picked off eventually. If you're driving while in sleep deficit on a regular basis - yer gonna get into an accident eventually. If you nail a school busload of kids, yer gonna get hung out to dry. This guy is lucky a lynch mob doesn't drag him out to the NEAREST TREE. How would you feel if YOUR KIDS were on that bus?

Rick

Look, this guy is going to jail for doing less than most of us (not me, I do everything by the book). Somebody needs to say it.

With maybe hundreds of thousands of 80,000 lb GVW trucks driving billions of miles on the roads each year, people are going to die. That's just how it is.

There was a bad accident, but that wasn't punishment enough. Now he'll likely go to prison. Why? Because he had an accident, not because he was doing anything different than the vast majority of drivers out there not named sporster65.

I read years ago how a car hauler who had been doing something like driving for 24 hours killed some people and went to prison. It's a completely different situation. They didn't say that the guy in the above case was doing anything wrong at the time of the accident, only that 5 times he did what most drivers probably would have done 40 times. I'm not saying me, I do everything by the book, but I've heard of drivers too lazy to draw lines everytime going potty or buying coffee takes more than 15 minutes. These scoundrels won't log it and then at the end just take out the calculators and make everything look right. I think everybody in the trucking industry not named sportster65 should be arrested and put in jail. Just my opinion.

Unless this driver was out on his logs at the time of this accident then it should not have been allowed to be heard by the jury. From what was quoted by the jury foremen it sounded like they convicted him of his past log violations rather than killing 5 people.

While I concede you appear to be a genius, SickRick, I was trying to point out that what he did wrong and who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time are two separate matters. I don't know what he did wrong that particular day, the article doesn't say. I do know that 5 falsifications, if you are counting any discrepancy between the logbook and reality, 5 falsifications in 40 days is probably low for everyone except me and sportster65 who draw everything in exact accordance with our wris****ches. As I said, hundreds of thousands of trucks, billions of miles, people die. What I want to know is what this guy did that different from everyone except me and sportster65.

I just think, based on the evidence we have, that could have been 99% of truckers who aren't so perfect they couldn't have an accident. He did have an accident and he'll likely go to prison. It needs to be said.

Of course, the troopers, the prosecutor, the judge and the jury are all better than that. If they were truckers, they wouldn't be like 99%. They probably wouldn't even keep a calculator around. A wris****ch, that's all they'd need to do their logs, just a wris****ch.

Why not just do your job right according to the book and let the chips fall where they may ?

That is a better option than getting fired or going to jail.

What the hell is wrong with simply being honest, does one have to lie to make it as a trucker ?

Werner is advertising "no more paper logs" on the back of their trailers, I guess they will take over the business like Wal-mart took over retailing since they have the technology on board.

long story short........it easier to get caught with a qualcomm! If u have ever gotten behind the wheel then you have falsified your logs. Some just make a habit of it more than others......Im leased on to a company with a Qualcomm and its harder to do but i still do it, but i ALWAYS have to take a COMPLETE 10 hr break. When i didnt have qualcomm it was easier and i always made any receipts match my logs. BUT,,,,, if i ever had the opportunity, like lowrange said, if i got to a shipper/reciever 7 hours early, and then got unloaded OF COURSE i made it look like ive been sitting there 10 hours. Falsifying is not right but its common knowledge to anyone from dispatchers to DOT that it goes on. Otherwise we would see ALOT more gettin pulled over and checked.

I know you've been on the board for awhile, but do you drive!? See, I don't know what to do with a post like this. You seem sincere.

I buy my own fuel, unless I'm pulling hills I do 57-60 mph. My truck will do something over 70, not sure what it is, but for a couple of reasons I don't need anyone telling me to slow down, I do it on my own. The point, I'm no cowboy.

But, it's like you fill out your logbook with a wris****ch instead of a calculator? Do you? You've never looked at your situation and seen that if you don't make this appointment, you won't make your next pick up and you'll be spending the weekend in Timbuktu instead of the house? You'd really miss a weekend at the house instead of massaging your logbook for a half hour!?

This scenario we keep talking about, arriving at the consignee 7 hours before your appointment. You really would spend 10 hours hanging out the next day until you are good and tired before taking off again, is that right?

So, how much time do you log every week on line four filling out your paperwork?

I have a little secret, I watched one morning, very few drivers are going over a 100 point inspection of their equipment before taking off. I'm sure you do, though.

If you get caught behind an accident and you average 30 mph over a four hour stretch, you do the right thing. I'm proud of you.

So, how often do you call your dispatcher and tell him to move your delivery time because you can't make it? I mean, like when you are 45 miles away from your destination, but because the consignee knocked on your door at 6:00am to have you back up to a dock, you're already at your 14 hours even though you haven't driven all that much. Do you find yourself changing everything your load planners and dispatcher have set up because they don't quite fit in with the HOS rules- even those situations that have nothing to do with you being tired?

Really, I want to know the answers. See, there's something I've found out, sometimes the self-righteous finger pointers who claim to be perfectly legal have their own ways of cheating because they think their cheating is moderate and undetectable. Please, what is your particular story?

Accident where I used to work involved 5 fatalities ... 1 driver and a family of 4...

fire destroyed anything and everything in the crash.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

They did not need the dead drivers logs to find out he had been running over 21 hours.

Qualcomm cannot tell a lie :)

And that right there is why this guy did not get convicted in state court, of negligent homicide and 32 other counts.


Here is one "local" article about his "Federal" conviction, for falsifying his log book.

Attorney: Truck driver to appeal in Wisconsin bus crash

and the other article, about his state trial.

May 1, 2007: Truck driver not guilty on all counts in bus crash

When you read the story of his acquittal, you will notice that his lawyers did a very good job, of bringing to light one of the largest and most frequent safety violations in the country, school bus driver's whom drive tired.


Lowrange (Carl), wants discussion about why this guy is convicted for log book falsification.

This guy chose to present a log book to investigator's, that showed him IN the sleeper berth, at the time of the accident.

The various articles point out that the "Federal" investigator's used fuel receipts, toll receipts, cameras, and various other "tools" to prove their case.

This guy showed that log book falsification was a regular trait of his. The next trail will probably be the dispatchers and managers of the company, if the "Fed's" choose to take them to court as well, an option which they still have.

Lowrange. You surely are not falsifying your log book on a regular basis, pulling hazmat....right? Especially if your truck is equipped with qualcomm or peoplenet. Right?


Another article describing the fed's case and the circumstances leading up to the accident and the federal charges.

http://www.startribune.com/local/330...L7PQLanchO7DiU

I just realized, some of the guys who preach telling the truth are the real liars. :lol: You want to find liars? They're in the safety departments of most companies. Anyway, it's much like you said.

We used to have this one account that always jammed you on the delivery time. I talked to one of the drivers for the company that took over the account and they are jamming them, too. BTW- the company rhymes with 'wow' and it's in Midland, MI.

Anyway, I hate those runs. I don't like drinking monster energy drinks to make my deliveries. Speaking of which, for all the lying goody two-shoes, what do you think all those energy drinks and stimulants in the truckstops are there for? I digress. The point being, the shippers and receivers with their just-in-time inventory systems create many of the problems. Someone could go up to 'wow' and see how they are scheduling these loads, sit there and realize drivers don't actually drive 'shortest miles', and start throwing some of them in jail instead of the guy caught between feeding his family, the DOT, and the companies and customers he works for.

Safety Department.... ?

Uhhhh....they keep the company safe sir.... :)

Never, OTG. You and me, we get to the consignee at midnight for a 7am delivery, we finish at 10 am and head straight to a truckstop and don't move until 8pm that night. Or, maybe you're saying I shouldn't go to the truckstop because I'd have to log that illegally, I guess you just hang out at the consignee all day? You are great!

FTR- The only details I knew of this case are from the article I posted. As indicated, I don't have problems with prosecuting a case like the guy who had been driving for 24 hours at the time of his accident. I'll take a look at those links. If the Wisconsin guy was doing something crazy, not something 99% of drivers not named sportster65, OTG or lowrange are doing, then I'll have no problems with this prosecution, either.

Uh huh. Safe from lawsuits. :)

Yet another article about this accident, and one that explains in greater detail why the NTSB has recommended the charges. Something I find disturbing, is the lack of the NTSB to clarify what the 78 year old school bus driver was doing, while the school band was performing in it's day long competition.

This portion of the article is what I find troubling,
And the defense attorney's successful argument;


What do you all think. Do you think that the bus driver had adequate rest before he drove that bus towards the home school district?

Or do you think maybe the bus driver watched most of the competition, as I have seen numerous bus drivers do over the years, then drove the bus wetward into a fatal accident?

I find this statement from the NTSB, hard to understand;

And...I really don't buy this arguement from the defense attorney either;


Just to add to the argument! :p

Ok, let me get this out here. While many guys aren't perfect like sportster65 and AVC, the guy in Wisconsin was out there in what I'd consider the extreme, like the guy who had been driving 24 hours straight. From the link above:

Ok, with the new information I agree with the prosecution. You don't touch a logbook for five days...you're asking for it. Still, man, AVC, you are awesome!

Carl, I do not park at Shipper's or Receiver's, even if they provide such space.

While QC may allow you to do that, Miller does not. Miller has been matching QC information to my log's, since I hired on two years ago. I learned early on, to just stop before I ran out of time.

And to answer an earlier situation you posed to someone....Yes, if I have burned off to much time at a Shipper, I inform Miller of my estimated arrival time, at the consignee, and request the unload appointment be moved to accomodate the HOS. I send all those request's via qualcomm, not by phone. Something else I learned early on.

I do not plan my trips to use 11 hours of driving time. I plan my trips to use 9.5 to 10 hours of driving, each transit day. If I get tired, I stop and I sleep. If needed I request appointment adjustment, to accomodate HOS.

I never make anything I do "about me", I make it about "safety and HOS", that way Miller cannot slam me with service failures, based on driver error. I also document everything I do, on the log page, as well as in a personal journal. Three times in the last year, my logs and my journal, have kept me from being "service failed". Twice the issues included contaminated product delivered to "Consignee Storage".

Oh, I do everything completely legal, too, OTG.

So, one more time, you'd let 45 minutes stand between you spending the weekend at the house instead of a truckstop 700 miles away?

Yes Carl, I would.

First, I can only, by "company" policy travel 660 miles in a "day". I have laid over in Louisiana numerous times, over the last 4 years.

Second. Nobody can forsee an accident. I am not going to hang my azz "out to dry", just so I can be home. When I am ready to sit at home, I plan it. I take more than a night. I take a week. I take 4 days. I do not worry about being "home" for just an evening.

However...I am single...so there is no real rush for me to be here.


In 30 years of filling out log books, I have never been hit with a "violation". LOL...I have received "letters" from the company, for infringing on "policy" (mostly over the company miles per hour average), but as far as how logs are viewed by the DOT, I have never been cited.

I can not tell you the numbers of times my logs have been checked, by DOT officers, there are just to many times to count.

What the guy in this incident, this accident, did, was wrong. He has only himself to blame. If his bosses and dispatchers condoned it, they should be facing charges as well.

There is no 'safe haven' rule ...

if you are out of hours...the truck cannot go.

Companies say its 'ok' to find a safe haven if the drop causes this to occur......

but when I ask them in orientation to show me this in the company handbook or the DOT regs...

they oddly avoid my question like a case of the herpes!

Haaaa !

Right, break the law to make the money, that's what America is all about !!!

Think Dick Cheney rigging the oil markets with Kissinger so they and Exxon could make trillions for themselves and their clients while destroying the entire world economy.

Hey if corruption is all right with you guys, it is all right with me, maybe we should all join the Mexican drug cartels and start pulling dope along with our loads too !!!

David Icke should speak on this...he will set it all straight :)

Ram it, Cowboy. I never said I was perfect or did no wrong. What I did say was I did not cheat or fudge my logs. For those of us who can add, subtract, multiply and divide it it not that hard. For those like you who can't it may be tough. And yeah, I did have those days where I was friggin tired and had trouble keeping my eyes open, guess what, I pulled over and stopped the 75,000 LB missle I was guiding.

Being honest isn't hard, for you it may be since you have a developed a habit of not being that way. You are the problem with the indusrty, thinking it is OK with running long, fudging your logs, and putting others at risk for a few pennies a mile. Until you and those like you are gone from the industry, it will continue to attract slime and scum, and will continue to condone illegal activity.

I had this thought that the drivers should form a union to protect themselves...

then I realized we would only be ridden harder....

swindled out of our labor... laid off and ultimately lose everything...

in the meanwhile all the union bosses would walk away rich as hell.

What a world :)

There is nothing straight in America any more, just like the log book versus no log books in this business, everything is completely screwed up everywhere !!!!

One day things may change and get better for this business and for drivers also, but for someone like me considering it as a career, it sure looks like a suck arse option at the moment.

PS: Zipy, deregulation of the industry ruined the unions and ruined it for drivers, this was another scam engineered by union busting Republican low life's like Reagan and the rest of the Nixon gang (Bush, Cheney, Kissinger) who have succeeded in destroying the entire world economy too !!!

They are republicans...it is in their nature to do that.

They live in a trickle up universe...all the money flows upwards...towards them

...Something to do with the 'laws of attraction'

If it were up to Bush and his daddy, you guys would be working for .15 cents a mile with no benefits !!!

Orangetxguy said:

Where's the LINK???? Oh, and.... I don't think the NTSB recommended any charges. The Fed prosecutor and the grand jury did.

Without seeing the bus driver's logs, it is hard to tell if he was HOS compliant... yet with no actual mention of it, I assume he was. However, the articles clearly stated that this 78 yr old man (IMHO too old to be driving commercially) had not slept for 19 hours! An OLD MAN.... without even a nap in 19 hours??? And driving at 2 in the morning??? Without wearing the glasses required on his driver's license? I wouldn't get on THAT bus!

Absolutely NOT! But, unfortunately.... I agree with the NTSB that that factor probably had nothing to do with the accident.

Very possibly. However, to clear up a thing you assumed earlier on.... this was a CHARTER bus... not a SCHOOL bus. The driver may not even be from the area. IF this was an all day event, oftentimes bus drivers are taken to local hotels for a restbreak. I don't think this driver DID... and may not have needed it for his HOS. But, somehow.... he had not slept in 19 hours, was driving late into the night, and was too old to pull that off safely.

Quote:
The absence of lighting on the semitrailer truck and Rasmus' use of low-beam headlights made it difficult for him to see the overturned truck, the NTSB said. But his early problems with cataracts -- a key defense argument at the criminal trial -- most likely didn't affect the outcome of the crash, the NTSB said.
The NTSB also said that the bus, owned by Chippewa Trails, had out-of-adjustment brakes, but that probably didn't contribute to the accident.


Not sure which part confuses you. The truck was lying probably on its right side with cab near median. This shows the black - UNLIT - undercarriage of the trailer to the busdriver. I've seen these a few times myself, and they are like invisible at night!

As for his cataract problem (which MAY have been corrected but not changed on his license,) they DID say he was supposed to be wearing his glasses, but maybe his vision had been corrected. Regardless.... what the NTSB is saying is that, although there were other "factors" like the eyesight and the bad brakes, NEITHER of these factors contributed to, nor could have prevented, the accident. That's just kinda how they cover all bases.

Neither do I! Where's that link?

As Lowrange pointed out after reading your earlier links.... this driver was "out there." If you don't have time to touch a logbook for 5 days.... you are pushing it WAY too much! Apparently, he had time to do some line 5 the night before (not sure if they mean more than 24 hours before..) but not to even ATTEMPT to fabricate some logs???

Under those conditions, I don't care WHAT that bus driver's condition was... I can't believe the trucker got OFF on the manslaughter type charges!!

Note also that this driver was only about 22 at the time of the accident. Barely old enough to drive INTERSTATE commerce! Couldn't have been driving for very long!

There ya go, AVC..... I guess he really, really needed a job and had that special "work ethic" you were talking about! :roll3:

I bet Whole Foods, facing multiple civil lawsuits, are taking names of seasoned VETS they can fire to make room for new drivers with better "work ethics" right NOW! :lol2: