I'm going to drive right now, I'll check out whether one can continuously split the sleeper later.

Either way, there are a whole lot words in this post which usefulness I don't see. The situation about arriving seven hours ahead of time is just an example that many drivers can relate to where the HOS rules seem to be contra-logical. You sleep for seven hours, you unload, then you sit all day long for ten hours and take off later that night when you are BEGINNING to get tired. Or, one can do like you suggest and just cheat.

We run legal where I work... generally it works ok

Other times (since they control your logbook from their end) you loose alot of sleep.

But then its not about sleep...its about not driving tired according to big brother.

Log, check a dipstick, use a qualcom, read a map, use a turn signal or take a shower. Lets face the truth, there are some people who should not start driving or be driving.

I dont understand the relation to a driver who 'does a good job' by 'only' falsifying 4-5 logs in a 40 day period. You saying a driver is a GREAT driver if he only falsifies 2 logs in a 50 day period?

From the post, it sounds like you think he should have got off with murder because he wasnt falsifying his logs nearly as bad as a driver with no accidents, but has more false logs than accurate logs.

I've been over my 14 before, and like Hawk said, i'm very careful and only go over my no more than 15.

As far as your prepass/EZ Pass transponder, it dont matter if he got a receipt or not. You go thru a toll, or a pre-pass site, and your thing beeps....your transponder code, date and time were just recorded. They know (should they go back and look) exactly when and where you were when you tripped that receiver. If you set it off at 9pm, when you said you went to bed at 6p 150 miles away, you've got problems.....and if you happen to get into an accident, fatal or not, and regardless if this was your 1st, 2nd or 65th time you've run illegal, it still carries the same 'stupid' penalty...and you'd deserve everything you got.

You can.

^^^this

Kevin:

There are something like 3 million truck drivers on the road today. Like it or not, about 2/3rds of them have "fudged" a logbook now and then, if not daily. MOST don't do it so that they can run tired on a mission to make more money. Most do it because, they get "jammed" by shippers and receivers and stupid dispatchers.

The reference to doing a "good job" was that the offender supposedly had ONLY 5 or 12 violations in 3 months. Compared to SOME drivers out there, that IS doing a "good job" of staying close to the requirements and still getting the job done.

Some are "saints" and NEVER cheat not even a little. Good for them. Their companies pay them well and their dispatchers don't "jam" them into a tough spot. You've said yourself, that you can LIVE on $500 a week. Most drivers CAN'T! They have families to support.

ClassADrivers is a GOOD board. Best info and people I've ever seen. But, we MUST be "real" if we want to answer the questions of newbies who are considering this occupation. They DESERVE to know the reality of the profession. Whether they WANT to stay legal or not, MANY of them will be asked, or FORCED, to do otherwise by their companies. That is just a FACT of this life.

There is really NO ROOM for sanctimonious "newbies" with Pollyanic views of life here (other than to LISTEN!) THEY have no cred! Experienced drivers like OTG who have lucked into a situation where they CAN log legal and make a living have a VALID viewpoint that should be heard. And likewise, we should hear the stories and complaints of those who find it hard to make a living under the current rules.... even if they don't understand them.

This board is NOT just a "mouthpiece" of the DOT or the government. It is for sharing experiences and problems. It is a 'community" of experienced drivers who have, through expeirence, learned pretty much ALL that one needs to make the decision to get into this business or not, and what to do if they DO.

Probably 80% of the members here have experienced the problems of keeping a logbook "legal" yet usefull. THAT is what was meant by a "good job." Obviously, when all the facts were revealed, the driver in question pushed it over the limit. But, the O.P. rightfully expressed that a FEW "indiscretions" within a few months, was NOT a national catastrophe, and probably equalled a "good job" for most truckers.

And by their OWN definition, a 34 hour restart SHOULD wipe any slate clean!

So he murdered somebody, huh? That's just stone ignorant, you know? The courts didn't even convict him of negligent homicide or manslaughter or whatever it was.

I can't believe all the perfect angels on this board. Had he only had 5 falsified logs in 40 days he might not have fared too badly. As we've come to see, that etrucker article blows and doesn't tell what he really did, including not filling out a log for 5 days. If we pushed you, you're falsifying your logs in one way or another and you don't even know it. If the DOT has access to any consistent tracking like Qualcomm or a trailer transponder, I'd bet only 5 falsified logs in a 40 day period would give you a grade of A. But, guys like you want to act high and mighty because you aren't even aware of the things you fudge.

So, how much line four do you have every week for doing paperwork?

I wish I had said that.

BTW- I'm not having trouble making money under the current HOS rules. Let me give you another example, horny married guys who want to squeeze every possible minute at the house they possibly can. I'm not married, and I have less need to get back to the house than most. But, those who really long to be at the house, sometimes they do things.

One more, have you ever had to wait awhile getting through the fuel islands? How often do you show 45 minutes fueling?

I think that advanced technology will actually favor the drivers down the road, enabling dispatchers to be more efficient in planning loads, if they can get real time data from all the trucks the load software will work a lot better, this will amount to a lot less pressure on drivers.

I think it will also squeeze the small companies out of the business since they will not have the money to invest in these systems, this is the same thing that happened to small hardware stores when Home Depot and Lowes came on the scene with billions of dollars to throw at the market.

I sure as hell hope that drivers making out hand logs become a thing of the past in the next few years.

Ok. I explained how I log my day. That apparently was not good enough. To bad.

I do not use the split sleeper berth option. There have been times in the past when I needed to. Now....I do not need to use it. If there is a problem en route, it is not my problem, it is dispatch's problem. THAT is what they get paid for. I get paid to deliver product safely. That is exactly what I do.

I earn enough money to pay the bills. Lately that has been "Just barely".

I appreciate what GH had to say. I have been doing this a long time. 50% of my driving was done as a "Local" delivery driver. I made decent money while it lasted. BUT, it did not last.

Once the economy turns, I expect to make decent money again. Right now, I am "Just Barely" making enough to stay ahead of the bills. Regardless, I log my day, like I work it. What I am doing now, is the first time I have used a Qualcomm system. Before this, it was "Tach Charts" and the early versions of "Trip Master". In the late 70's and early 80's, it was just a logbook and a time sheet, and I logged under "Oilfield Exemptions".

You want to know how to lie legally on a log book, work in the oilfields.

Lowrange, you wrote this, in response to my logging explanation;

Quote:

baloney, if it's work it's line 4. It just is, otg. Hoses, pump, in the wash rack, looking around for a chicago fitting, waiting on the attendant...all of it, line four. Oh, i know, you won't get caught doing it the way you do. But, i thought we were discussing sainthood.

I ask you. Have you ever looked at a Miller Transporters truck? Do you ever see one with a hose rack on the back? The only one's you will see, with a hose rack, are former QC O/O's, whom just recently signed on with Miller. WE do not carry hoses on the truck. The hoses are carried on the trailer, and they are placed on the trailer by employees at Miller terminals. I am not a Miller "employee", I am a Owner Operator, and do not get paid to lift hoses or swap hoses.

As far as fittings, I was issued every fitting I will ever need, to unload a Miller trailer safely. I don't have to go searching for them, because they are safely stowed in my side box. IF I need an extra fitting, a Miller "Shop" employee issues it to me, at the time of dispatch, and I sign a receipt for it. I then place it inside my side box, which I keep locked.

The truck pump? I log wash rack time to clean it, on line 4. I used my truck pump exactly 6 times in 2008. I have used it exactly 2 times so far this year. I do not like using my truck to pump product. It is not safe and it does not guarantee an "Uncontaminated" product delivery.

I am far from a "Saint". I can be, at times, a real S. O. B. I don't need to listen to B. S. from some twit who sits behind a desk. HE does not pay my bills for me. I on the other hand, provide for his continued employment, by continuously doing my job properly.

GH. I appreciate this comment;


When I do try to BS someone here, I usually try and do it in an obvious fashion.

In 30 years of doing this for a living, I have worked for exactly one company that encouraged illegal logging. I worked there for 2 days. That was in May of 2005.

When I left, after the second day of training, it was after having been in the truck, under dispatch, while delivering gasoline, 18 hours. The trainer I had been riding with started HIS day, at 2 am that day. He picked me up, at the agreed upon point, at 5:30 am. At 6 pm of that day, he informed me that we had just been assigned another 5 loads of gasoline to deliver, and that we would be working until 3 am.

I stayed on the truck until 11 pm, at which point I advised the employees of the Exxon Load rack, in Port Arthur, of the situation and instructed them to lock us out, for safety reasons.

When I left the local office the next day, I had made it clear why I left, and what I expected, as far as wages for the two days was concerned. Two weeks later, I received a pay check, that had been shorted 15 hours, and on top of that, had been shorted again by the deduction of a DOT physical, as well as for "Safety" equipment. For 37 hours work, I received a final check for $7.90. It did not sit well.

I returned that check to the HOME office of that particular company, along with a blistering letter, detailing the events of just that second day of training, as well as my "fortune telling" of events I expected to read about, concerning that particular terminal, and that particular driver. I sent along, with that letter, copies of my "Training Record" signed by the "Trainer" and the Dispatcher, which the company had no clue were in my possession. I explained bluntly what I would do with those records, if I did not receive the proper wages, to which I was owed. I also sent along copies of the FMCSA regulations, which place the cost of job training, DOT physicals and safety equipment that pertains to the job, on the EMPLOYER, not the prospective employee.

I received the proper check 3 days later, as well as a letter of apology. I still have possession of the original training records, as well as that apology.

That company no longer hauls gasoline.

Oh yeah. For the record, I logged the entire day as "on duty, not driving", and still have copies of those two days of logs.

What do you think they posted on my DAC record?


As for this thread....The kid driving that truck deserves to be in jail. So does his dispatcher and his Manager.

If anyone is ever in need of a good lawyer in Wisconsin, it would be a good idea to remember the name of the lawyer that represented this kid, at state court!


:pissedoff: :pissedoff: :pissedoff: :pissedoff:

wow.. this thing has to be a record for the most pages in 24 hours!!

I log as best as i can.. i know on this account alot of guys don't log the time spent at the store or they log only 15 mins vs. the 30 to 1 hour in a half you can spend inside a store.. The only time i don't log full time spent at the store if im close to going over my 70...

Hey all i can say is **** happens and sometimes you got to fudge the damn thing.. you can't go retarted with it but hey, you gots to be smart about it..

This isnt directed right at you. Yes stuff does happen and sometimes fudging a log helps your situation out but if something happens and you are found in the wrong place at the wrong time there is a penalty to be paid.

lowrange and golf.....tell me....if i only robbed a bank once every 5 years, but other criminals rob a bank once a year and make off with millions...but i only stole $5,000....i'm doing a good job too, huh? Illegal is still illegal. Kinda like illegal ailens. Dont care how you get in, or how many kids you pop out in the USA.....you are all still illegal. illegal is illegal, dont matter how you try to butter it up.

What it sounds like, is the guy kills someone, but he should get off scott free because he "ONLY" had 5 fudged logs in 40 days?? Will there be some benchmark now, that you will only go to jaill for killing someone with your truck ONLY if you are found to have 20 fudged logs in 40 days? give me a break. the law is the law. if you have a wreck with just one fudged log on the day of your accident, you should get the same punishment as the driver with 40 fidged logs in 50 days. .... yes or no?

and yeah, it is murder. he didnt have control of his truck....an 80,000lb lethal weapon. same as being careless with a gun, shooting it off in 100 different directions, and one bullet hits some little 7 year old girl sleeping in her bed.

All it takes is one screw up. Kevin is 100% correct on this.

Everyone has a right to their opinion here.

If something I do causes the death of someone else, in no way did I do a "good job".

Under the new rules, a 34 hour reset wipes the 70 hour clock clean. A driver can still be prosecuted for prior violations. If falsifying his logs created the 34 hour reset, then the 34 hour reset would be null and void.

Did the driver even show a 34 hour reset? Or are you assuming he did?

Your argument isn't with me, your argument is with the legal community including the judge and the prosecutor. I simply agree with them.

I don't know what to say, Kevin. Simply, I've come across yet another whose log is a perfect, let's say it again, your log is a perfect reflection of every place you go and everything you do (in the four categories on the log). It also makes me feel safer knowing you're out there on the road somewhere, and you won't go two miles over the speed limit because you believe in obeying the laws. You're just too fabulous for words.

This even applies with "falsified" log books are not intentionally false, but mistakenly false, ie... math errors etc.

Illegal is illegal and false is false, but if there was found no intent to falsify the logs should this be treated as a lessor offense? At first take, I would say there is a difference, but then again, we are professional, licensed drivers and are held at a higher standard.

The Pharisees are driving the 55mph interstates at 57 mph hour. Their logs don't show them speeding, though. As the aforementioned woman willing to give it up for a million dollars, we can just consider it established that they are hypocrites. All that remains is how far they go into the gray area and how far is too far.

I always get a laugh when someone is ridiculed for taking the high road here. Yes it is possible to log legal, and run legal, yo just have to be able to add and subtract and check your work. You are dealing with 24 hr period, its not advanced math.
But I guess it's gotten to the point that so many are running and logging illegal that if you don't you are the freak.
According to the article the driver was convicted of 5 counts of falsifying records, in order to be convicted of that charge it would have to be proven that tere was intent. Meaning that there was an intention to decieve, in other words it would have to been proven that he with malice and forethought did intentionally falsify his records to show something that was not accurate. If there was no intent he would be held responsible, but to a lesser degree, as there was not the intention of wrongdoing.

The flame baiting stops now. If you can't have a simple discussion about the subject of the thread without making it personal, then I'll be happy to lock the thread, much to the chagrin of the other members here.

Rev, I use a number of boards. What you call "flame baiting" we call having fun. I done, I don't need this, and I do have better place to go. ;)

So go have fun over there.

No... I think that would be the long since disregarded "Disregard" thread! :lol2:

So, your claim is disregarded! ;)

Try to keep it open, Rev. I got some more to say. ;)

I'm not locking it. But I won't let the obvious flame baiting continue. Especially given the hypocrisy of the person doing the flame baiting.

It's a very good discussion, and I see no reason to end it.

Kevin said:

So.... you're a "criminal" then, right? So, if a week from now, on a day that you are PERFECTLY legal, you have an accident and someone dies?

Should you go to prison for that? For the fact that you falsified logs on days where NOTHING bad happened but you got to sleep in a truckstop and eat a steak dinner?

Thank you for your admiration. That is exactly what I do.

I love it when someone dont have a good enough argument to come back with, so they start putting words in others mouths. Never once did i say i am perfect. I will be the first to admit they dont always do the speed limit. Ill be the first to tell you i've driven past my 14 after a shipper screwed me up taking 3 hrs to unload that 2,000 lb pallet, and the closest place to safely park was 20 min. away.

so boy, don't report 'fact' when you clearly dont have them.

Your argument IS with the fact that you think he was doinng a 'good job' by getting into a wreck, taking lives, but it was 'okay' because he only had 5 falsified logs.

Math errors? I learned by 1st grade how to add to 24. Not to mention, one of the reasons i do my logs on computer now (and before you start foaming at the mouth, i'm not the only one on here who does) because it will track where my 11, 14, split sleeper starts and ends, my 70....you name it.

but then again, i get ragged on for using GPS because people automaticly think drivers who use GPS dont know how to read a map.

never said you'd be a criminal for having a false log. And if you have an accident that takes a life on a day you were running perfectly legal, would all depend on HOW and/or WHAT caused the accident, yeah? Were you hot dogging? Were you running tired and fell asleep at the wheel?? Or maybe one of your steer tires blew. Did you do a proper pre-trip? Or did you just think asking for a radio check was good enough??? If something happens that causes a wreck that could have been prevented from doing a half-azz pretrip, and you missed it, yeah, you should go to jail. (for the max time possible? maybe/maybe not) You have a wreck that was just some freak act that could have not been prevented? no. So it all boils down to whether or not YOU, the PROFESSIONAL driver, could have prevented it by doing what you are paid to do. If you were careless or negligent, and THAT causes a wreck and you kill someone, you dam right you should go to jail.

IMO, the bus driver screwed up just as bad as the truck driver. He was traveling too fast for conditions, and couldn't stop in time. Doesn't matter if he was fatigued or not.

Absolutely. And the bus driver paid for his mistake. Dearly.

This is where you are wrong. If the truck driver was fatigued, and that led to the initial accident, then it most certainly does matter imo.

Sooooo.....according do your way of thinking, i should never travel over 30mph just in case someone else in the other lane falls asleep at the wheel, and drifts over the center line into my path....i should always be able to stop my truck to prevent an accident.....an accident that wasnt caused by me??

So what if the bus driver DID get stopped.....and a truck still hits it head on, and the driver of the bus still dies......(which is probably what would have happened based upon the speed of the out of control truck). Now the bus driver isnt at any fault because he stopped the truck? Or should he have stopped, put up cones, flares and set off fireworks to wake the driver of the truck up before impact??

How does one go over their 11/14 with a loose leaf log book and knowledge of basic math ?

*ahem* They won't get it, though.

Well, I see I have access to the website again, although I can't edit or delete anything.

If the driving schools and state testers were smart, i would have each driver trying to get their CDL solve 20 math problems...20 with decimas, and 20 counting up 11/14 hr days, keeping track of those hours just like on a log book. anybody who cant score 100% on them gets canned right there.

If you cannot be accurate, and count to 11, 14, 34 and 70, you've got no business behind the wheel.

logging isn't that simple. The larger companies, as you know, give logging classes if you are having trouble. And... if you still log in error, they can you.

also, most CDL schools go over logging

What is so hard about logging....if you're NEAT. you add up all 4 lines, total them at the end, add vertical to make sure you have 24 hrs. If you end up with 24.50, you know you messed up somewhere. if your right so far, you jot that number down and add it with your previous 6 days. Really isnt that hard.

as you are aware, you also have to understand how to long correctly. Not just the math. If you think because you added up to 24 you have logged correctly, than you haven't learned to log correctly. :hellno:

tru dat.....BUT if a driver dont know the difference between logging for being in the sleeper, or taking a shower or a 10-200 (smokey and the bandit) or having dinner in the wal-mart cafe, i can't help ya. Driver always has to know where is 11 and 14 hr limits are. Its all about paying attention to detail.

Oh, I gathered from your prior post that all would be solved if the CDL schools tested for math.

my bad? :confused:

apparently the logging classes helped you :thumbsup:

Loose leaf went right over your head, huh?