[Muskeg]

I have a Commercial Pilots License and a CDL. I work Summers as a Float Plane Pilot in Alaska and I drive a truck in the off-season. I started flying a little over 10 years ago and I just got my CDL this year, so I've been flying a lot longer than I've been driving a truck.
Most people can start, shift, steer a course and then bring a truck to a stop with 10-15 minutes of in cab instruction. Nobody is going to start, taxi, take-off, manage prop and RPM controls, fly a course and then land an airplane with an instructor just telling them what to do.
Imagine a person inexperienced in either a tractor trailer or a single engine airplane that is magically transported into the operators seat and is tasked with coming to a stop. Which one is most likely to have a successful outcome? The vast majority could bring the truck to a stop but I'd suggest that very few would survive bringing that airplane down successfully.
When I'm in doubt or unsure of something in my truck I can slow down or even stop to look or think it over. If I do the same thing in my plane I will spin into the ground and die. In the lowest and slowest of airplanes decisions have to be made at or above 50 MPH and most planes will fall out of the sky at speeds a lot higher than that.
There are similarities that other posters already noted and I certainly thought of them also, during my CDL training. The only thing that I can think of that is more difficult in trucking is logging, and that is only because the DOT micromanages drivers and the FAA doesn't.
Partner, if you mastered ILS approaches to minimums with two hours in an airplane I think you should contact NASA, because my guess is that they'll want to study you. You ought to be a test pilot or flying a rocket ship or something, but you obviously got something special. I'm a working pilot with Commercial Land and Sea Ratings and Instrument privileges and I don't consider that I've "mastered" approaches to minimums.

[Crackaces]

I started Instrument Training with 200 hours experience. I was NOT saying I had only 2 hours experience total before taking on an ILS. I was only saying that given ILS instruction I picked it up in about 2 hours given that I could already fly an airplane "by the numbers." (Given a certain throttle setting, prop setting and pitch yields an airspeed and rate of decent or climb). The analogy to trucking I was drawing that even if I mastered all the numbers .. I might hit a dock that challenged me to the max.

Once I learned the numbers for any aircraft it was pretty easy to fly. 2200 hours later I think I feel comfortable flying any Single Engine Land or Multiengine land prop plane and fly it anywhere. Not true with a truck. I think right now at my experience level it has taken longer to get the skills of a truck driver than it took me to gain equivalent pilot skills.

So you know I used to write for the MOA (Mooney Owners of America) Magazine. I have articles in the 2001 era. (Lookup David Trinidad N231JM)

To answer your sarcasm .. I have taken courses on being a test pilot in Mesa AZ. (for a manufacture not NASA ). BTW) Passengers on a rocket are just that .. passengers. Not much skill there :P

Nope .. I did not crash N231JM .. it was sold then.

[Crackaces]

I hate to double post but this is a reply of a different subject

One big difference between flying and truck driving I have experience -- knowing what to expect.

Let's take the hardest instrument approach (in my opinion). A VOR approach at night circle to land in minimums with a runway just long enough to land and stop. Everything is against me but I make a plan before I even get in the airplane. If this happens or that happens this is exactly what I am going to do next. If things go different than expected I just execute that plan. I stay ahead of the airplane and make decisions well ahead based on well thought out expecations. For an approach it is a missed approach and I am guaranteed I will safely exit the situation. If I planned well my alternate has plenty safety margin and I live another day.

If things do not go as planned in a truck I could face a situation where I get the truck and trailer in I can not extract myself. The street on my map dead-ends prematurely and I can not either back up or certainly can not execute a U-turn. I am in a conundrum I can not extract myself depite my best efforts to plan.

Speaking of planning .. I have made maybe two or three instantaneous decisions in my aviation career that was not planned. One is documented on the web at Deer Vally Airport in AZ. The other was at Flying W airport in New Jersey. While in the pattern I guy just took off the wrong way and flew feet in front of me. I quickly decided to climb and turn right. I survived. Yep every emergency had a plan and a checklist to execute. I do not think that trucking is as well thought out and the truck pilot has to do a lot more skillful decision making quickly. Maybe when I get 5 years of driving a truck like commercial flying I will feel differently.

I would say that Muskeg is flying in one of the most difficult areas to fly in and accident stats prove it. All my flying was in the lower 48 so my view is somewhat rose colored of aviation.

[long_hauler2005]

Crackaces... funny you should mention a pre-planned plan of action. I subscribe to FLYING magazine. In this months issue there is an ariticle by an physchologist who normally has a plan for when things go wrong and how he himself blew that plan out of the water and nearly wrecked with his family on board.

More on the subject of driving versus flying. I am not yet a driver. I will get my hands on a rig starting tomorrow. But I plan on approaching the task of learning to drive these trucks the same way I took on the task of learning to fly.

I will go into that classroom and drivers seat with the attitude that I know nothing about anythng (which I dont) and will learn all that I can in the time that I have. The one big difference I can already anticipate of this endeavor is the fact that in flying, you are not allowed to go onto a new task (say slow flight) until you master another task before it (stall recovery). I can see the learning curve is going to have to be steep in driving as the time line will HAVE to advance since the training is not one on one. I do hope I am up to this task.

As to which one is harder? Not sure, there are dificulties in each. In learning to fly, I hit a brick wall in cross wind landings, the fear of what is called a cross control stall had me ice up every time. I am sure that backing will bring me a challenge at least as complicated as cross-wind landings if not more difficult. (I now love landing in a slight cross-wind... gives me a tickle in my tummy and a wonderful adreline rush once completed)

[Crackaces]

Well right now at least, I have not felt as challenged learning to drive a truck as I have my entire aviation career.

I felt much less of that frustration and tension flying into Telluride in the dead of winter than I am feeling practicing trying to master a blind side backup into my simulated grocery store. (Cones represent walls and poles)

At least with Telluride I was protected from all the granite by rules that governed the approach. Follow the rules and you are guaranteed not to hit anything. My main concern at this point is getting into a situation that I can not extract myself.

Come to think about it .. it would be nice to have regulations like the TERPS for designing docks. "No dock shall have a pole within 20' of the assigned parking/loading position ....." "No dock shall be designed for access involving any blind-side backup procedures" "The minimum clearance for and loading area shall be XXX .. The fine for non-compliance shall be no less that $100,000 ..." :P

BTW) The other thing that makes truck driving harder IMHO ... with an airplane you just trim it up and it flies itself. I am not talking about auto-pilot although that is very helpful, but believe it or not you can just simply set the power and trim the airplane to relieve all forces off the controls. Do that and an airplane requires no more attention after that until the next configuration change. A truck I am finding requires constant attention.

[Muskeg]

Crackaces;
I apologize for my earlier post. I had pegged you for a new PPL or less that had manaed an ILS with Dad or an instructor making sure nobody got killed. I've utilized several sites since I started thinking about getting a CDL back in November, This is the one that's been the most helpful and I thought you were some pilot wannabe blowing smoke.
I was reminded many times during my CDL training and my OTR training about flight training. There are lot of similarities and anyone that's had any kind of flight training will recognize them. It even extends to the work itself. Cruise flight is easy. It's the end that's hard. In flying that's landing and in trucking it's backing. I understand your point about specifics on how to do a difficult back. Flying a three degree approach, there's an engine setitng and a pitch that'll get you there for each individual airplane. Maintain your direction and attitude and t ought to get you in. In backing a truck it's a lot more vague than that and it's all left up to guesswork. There's no "turn the wheel 70 degrees left and hold for 7 seconds".
Your training won't teach you to do all kinds of backs (landings). You'll figure them out as you get in the situation. As a new PP I remember trying to land at an airport with a crosswind that was giving me lots of trouble, and I did three go arounds, before I got that 172 on the ground. Since then I've had quite a few more landings that I wasn't real comfortable with but o far, nobody's been hurt and no airplanes have been bent. My guess is that you've had a similar situations.Doing a tight back could be compared to a difficult landing. I'm not good, so I tend to get to a truck stop early so I can find an easy parking space. The big difference is that your back (landing) is done from 0 to 7 MPH.

.

[Crackaces]

No problem Muskeg .. I love a challenge and You helped make my point very succinctly, which I was doing a very very bad job. ops:

BTW) I agree with your posts and I especially agree that this is the best forum for newbie truckers. I have posted quite a bit and so far no trolls have called me an idiot. The discussion has been lively but informative non the less. I have learned much from this group for that I am thankful. I posted 3 times in the "other" forum and have not been back.

The original intent of my post was to understand the perception that somehow pilots were Gods and truckers some kind of scumbag lower than a caveman. There was a response from a post "Why do Newbies fail" from Highway Man that expressed a belief that Truck driving was far easier and much less skillful than being a pilot. Being a fairly experienced pilot myself (no airlines but flew some commercial work) and having nothing to gain by putting truckers in their place :P I was in awe of the skills required to successfully and safely drive a truck.

The post purpose was to get some of the pilots that are also truckers to discuss how the skills interrelated. Mainly to get an understanding that maybe a CDL takes more than a Neanderthal to obtain.

I think it takes more skills primarily because of all the variables that are unexpected and not in the book. I am simply in awe of the challenges professional truckers face everyday. :shock: Now somebody is going to reply "You are so full of &*^%" But I suspect anybody would feel that way once they mastered their trade. "Hey this is easy!" I feel right now it takes longer and more effort to really be professional at truck driving.

Personally, I felt obtaining a PPL in 40 hours was a heck of a lot easier than getting a CDL (Nope still training). especially landing vs. backing. Get the right airspeed, adjust for winds and you will land safely every time. (Maybe not a greaser but a safe landing). There are tons more variables in backing into a dock. One wrong decision and it's bent metal and a new career. Getting lost is also way more complex. Get lost in an airplane and everybody is ready to help including a DF steer to your favorite airport. Get lost in a truck and you are all alone. One wrong turn and quite possibly you could be embarking on a new career.

So I feel the newbie obtaining a CDL [ok maybe survive the first year]has just as much right to feel proud of their accomplishment as I did getting my PPL, and from a pilots perspective I fully respect the person for their career choice.

[long_hauler2005]

Originally Posted by Crackaces

Well right now at least, I have not felt as challenged learning to drive a truck as I have my entire aviation career.

I felt much less of that frustration and tension flying into Telluride in the dead of winter than I am feeling practicing trying to master a blind side backup into my simulated grocery store. (Cones represent walls and poles)

At least with Telluride I was protected from all the granite by rules that governed the approach. Follow the rules and you are guaranteed not to hit anything. My main concern at this point is getting into a situation that I can not extract myself.

Come to think about it .. it would be nice to have regulations like the TERPS for designing docks. "No dock shall have a pole within 20' of the assigned parking/loading position ....." "No dock shall be designed for access involving any blind-side backup procedures" "The minimum clearance for and loading area shall be XXX .. The fine for non-compliance shall be no less that $100,000 ..." :P

BTW) The other thing that makes truck driving harder IMHO ... with an airplane you just trim it up and it flies itself. I am not talking about auto-pilot although that is very helpful, but believe it or not you can just simply set the power and trim the airplane to relieve all forces off the controls. Do that and an airplane requires no more attention after that until the next configuration change. A truck I am finding requires constant attention.

Unless that ac is a P-51 Mustang at high power. At least on my simulator. Keep that wild bird under 280 indicated and she is a dream to fly, up to 380 indicated and she needs a constant hand and 300% attention. But real life birds are very nice, set power and trim for any phase of flight, then concentrate on the business of navigating be it by instruments or visual reference (I prefer the latter as there is some great scenery here, like the Nuclear sub I overflew as it departed Kings Bay). Most anyother vehicle, be it truck, car, motorcyle requires alot of attention. Like driving though, flying visually does require keeping your head and eyes out teh windows so that too is a very similar situation.

I will have to check out telluride on my simulator, sounds like a fun approach.

You say you fly alot of charter and bush stuff in Alaska Aces? That is where I want to go when I get my commercial. I fly my sim out of anchorage alot using a Caravan or Maule to get to some back country lakes and such. Can you give me good challenging places to fly to? Always up for something new.

[Crackaces]

I sent you long_hauler2005 a private email so you would have me email address. I hope you got it.

Just for the record, I stated that all my experience was in the lower 48. Muskeg flew AK commercial routes. I assume bush work but I do not know. I do know that AK bush work is very dangerous from the accident stats and talking to bush pilots so I have lots of respect for anybody willing to work up there. I once flew from Skagway to Juneau and back. I found it to be challenging enough.

Telluride is a very very interesting approach. The minimums are 2000' AGL. 5 miles visibility. A normal LOC approach is usually 400' and a mile visibility. So what is so special? I mean the minimus are so high! Telluride sits in s box canyon. Fly any heavy iron into that airport and you are committed to land. It gets really special when the snow starts falling because sometimes the mountain fog that is formed can be easily seen through in a vertical angle but gets tougher to see through completely as you land having to see horizontally through the mist. But once you start to land you are committed there is no missed approach from the landing configuration. (Landing is into the box canyon .. take offs are the opposite direction) Eagle and Rifle are two other airports with similar death traps.

What does that have to do with trucking? Because I would fly this approach in a heartbeat before trying to do a blind side back into some of the grocery stores and docks I have seen and now appreciate how difficult they are really. Those truckers that do this everyday witout beding any metal and taking less than a couple of pullup have my respect.

[GirlnamedShannon]

Never mind.