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  #11  
Old 08-10-2008, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Creek Jackson
Longsnowsm wrote:

"Wind is great, and cheap, but you have to have a way to store the energy and use it when you need it. "

I have often thought that wind energy could be used to pump water to a higher elevation. The energy generated by the wind would then be stored in the water as kinetic energy.

I am sure there must be a hitch in this process somewhere or it would have been utilized by now.
There is a hitch. You would lose because of the resistance to flowing as well as the power it would take to lift the water, and on the reverse cycle, you would again lose because of the resistance. Or call it "DRAG-COEFFICIENT". The same thing that gives you less mpg at 75 mph then at 65 mph. No, it's not wind resistance, but the water has adhesion to the surface of the plumbing going both ways. This will reduce the efficiency. While I'm sure it would help, you will not get everything back out of it that you put into it.

I'm afraid my vote still goes to HYDROGEN.
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  #12  
Old 08-10-2008, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Windwalker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Creek Jackson
Longsnowsm wrote:

"Wind is great, and cheap, but you have to have a way to store the energy and use it when you need it. "

I have often thought that wind energy could be used to pump water to a higher elevation. The energy generated by the wind would then be stored in the water as kinetic energy.

I am sure there must be a hitch in this process somewhere or it would have been utilized by now.
There is a hitch. You would lose because of the resistance to flowing as well as the power it would take to lift the water, and on the reverse cycle, you would again lose because of the resistance. Or call it "DRAG-COEFFICIENT". The same thing that gives you less mpg at 75 mph then at 65 mph. No, it's not wind resistance, but the water has adhesion to the surface of the plumbing going both ways. This will reduce the efficiency. While I'm sure it would help, you will not get everything back out of it that you put into it.

I'm afraid my vote still goes to HYDROGEN.
I was aware that there would be a loss of energy in the conversion of wind to electricity to kinetic.
I was speaking in terms of the storage potential more than the other principles. :wink:
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  #13  
Old 08-11-2008, 12:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Windwalker
I'm afraid my vote still goes to HYDROGEN.
Until just recently with the big announcement from MIT, hydrogen was too costly to extract and was a net energy loser. But if the big news out of MIT proves to be true they have figured out a way to simulate photosynthesis and separate hydrogen and oxygen from water.

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2008/oxygen-0731.html

The other big stumbling block until now has been the time it will take to get hydrogen to the market. If we were forced to produce hydrogen on large scale using conventional means, transport, and implement it just wouldn't happen in time. The time is shorter than most people think regarding energy and the global energy situation.

This MIT discovery could have us all making hydrogen at home and within 10 years if what MIT says is right. Now we will have to see what the details are regarding the catalyst materials, amount of electricity used, and the volume of hydrogen produced. Right now the details are sparse. And let's see if this story actually develops into something we can actually see and not just something in the lab.

Overall if we have to use conventional means to get hydrogen it is an energy loser, but if this photosynthesis method is real then hydrogen just became front and center on the energy stage. I guess we will see soon enough.

Pickensplan.org is a great start I think, but I would love to see this hydrogen story steal the thunder and the headlines if it is true that hydrogen could end up being practically free and easy to produce. BUT just because we can possibly get the hydrogen for cheap or free doesn't change the fact that we still have to build the fuel cells, storage tanks, and equipment that can use it for our homes, cars, trucks, and in the various ways we use energy today. Most of this stuff doesn't exist in any form yet. This all will take a substantial amount of time.

In the mean time I think we have to rally behind what we have available today. The pickensplan.org plan is doable and in a short period of time if we are serious. If even one of these big projects gets the go ahead and starts to move the innovation and technology will develop to make it work for us.

Longsnowsm
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  #14  
Old 08-11-2008, 01:09 AM
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Wonder how much stake ol' Pick's got in that operation.
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  #15  
Old 08-11-2008, 01:18 AM
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He talks about it in the CNBC interviews. He is putting his own money in a wind plant in TX right now, and has been involved in natural gas for some time. Some have just said it is about the money for him. He plainly says he is giving his money away so it isn't about the money. I have to wonder if something isn't up with his health the way he is talking.

Longsnowsm
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  #16  
Old 08-11-2008, 01:47 AM
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I don't have a problem with him making money off of his natural gas or windmills. If he invests his own money he deserves to earn a profit. I hope he earns another fortune. At least he is trying to do something productive. That is more than his counterparts are doing.
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  #17  
Old 08-11-2008, 02:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longsnowsm
I have thought the same thing on the water idea. I have seen some YouTube video's with an old Stirling Engine they used to use to pump water into a holding tank for cabins and hotels. The stirling just uses heat to power it. So they used to fire it up first thing in the morning by lighting a fire under it and then just let it run until the fire went out. That would pump enough water to supply the buildings. So imagine using something like a fresnel lens to heat that engine and pump water or run a generator? You can see a fresnel lens used on a small stirling engine also on YouTube. It is almost a no brainer! There are a couple of videos showing the fresnel lens "melting" concrete!

To me it looks like you would just need something to allow the fresnel to move and track the sun to keep the stirling running. The stirling is an old technology. The one video on YouTube shows a Sterling from 1895 that was used to pump water.

Wind to pump water has been done for a long time, and again seems like a no brainer. Not sure why this isn't being discussed. Probably makes too much sense!

Longsnowsm
They do that in Israel. The sun heats layered salt water pools. I believe that it is a stirling type engine principle they use to extract the electricity. It would probably work in the Southern US as well. The downside is that you only get power when the sun shines, and most people like to use lights when it is dark. :lol:
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  #18  
Old 08-11-2008, 02:53 AM
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I believe that if you study the Pickens plan that you will find he is not opposed to drilling, but he thinks that drilling alone is not enough, we need wind power too. We need to supplement all the oil and natural gas we can drill for domestically with the alternatives.


BTW if you tell me we can't drill our way out of this problem, I will ask you if we should tax our way out instead?






Yesss! I can still make the longest runon sentence ever. :lol:
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Nothing is foolproof to a talented fool.
--------------------------------------------
The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.

-- J R R Tolkien
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  #19  
Old 08-11-2008, 05:06 AM
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"BTW if you tell me we can't drill our way out of this problem, I will ask you if we should tax our way out instead?"




Good Point!
That will be the solution the "leaders" will come up with...if they ever get back to work.
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  #20  
Old 08-11-2008, 11:49 AM
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It is best that they don't get back to work. When they are out of Washington they can't spend our money or throw more taxes our way!
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