[GMAN]

A LITTLE GUN HISTORY






In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
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In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
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Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
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China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated
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Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
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Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
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Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
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Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.
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It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by their own Government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars. The first year results are now in:

List of 7 items:

Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent.

Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent.

Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)!

In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent. Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not, and criminals still possess their guns!

While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.

There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the ELDERLY. Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort, and expense was expended in successfully ridding Australian society of guns. The Australian experience and the other historical facts above prove it.

You won't see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information.

Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens.

Take note my fellow Americans, before it's too late!

The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson.

With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'.

During WWII the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans were ARMED!

If you value your freedom, please spread this anti-gun control message to all of your friends.


The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defeat. The sword is more important than the shield, and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental.



SWITZERLAND ISSUES EVERY HOUSEHOLD A GUN! SWITZERLAND 'S GOVERNMENT TRAINS EVERY ADULT THEY ISSUE A RIFLE. SWITZERLAND HAS THE LOWEST GUN RELATED CRIME RATE OF ANY CIVILIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!! See attached:



http://stephenhalbrook.com/articles/guns-crime-swiss.html



IT'S A NO BRAINER! DON'T LET OUR GOVERNMENT WASTE MILLIONS OF OUR TAX DOLLARS IN AN EFFORT TO MAKE ALL LAW ABIDING CITIZENS AN EASY TARGET.




I'm a firm believer of the 2nd Amendment! If you are too, please forward.

[Mackman]

GOOD POST:thumbsup:

[marylandkw]

snopes.com: Australian Guns Stats

But I suppose the facts will get in the way of your arguments.

Seriously Gman, I have more guns than you can even imagine and NOBODY is coming for your or my guns. The only hype I have heard is coming from right wing nut jobs. Just like they did when Carter and Clinton were elected.

[golfhobo]

Okay, GMAN.... Hobo will respectfully join the debate (as you did my thread some time ago.)

I must say that the email that you "pasted" was well written and presents a persuasive argument. I have no doubt that you agree strongly with it.

However, the most important underlying tennet of our judicial system requires that conclusions and convictions should not be based on either a distortion of the facts or the assumption of facts not in evidence.

It is easy to find statistics to support one's convictions, and to present them in a way that ignores pertinent realities. I haven't the time to research each example given, but I am convinced that they are based on both the misappropration of cause and effect, AND the assumption of facts not in evidence or the ommission of facts that ARE in evidence.

For the record, the statistics concerning Australia ARE most disturbing, and I will be doing some research in that regard. The other ones could be dismissed with simple one line debates in most cases.

Which brings me to the link you provided concerning Switzerland. I know nothing about the author, and make no personal judgements, but I read that article with much interest. Unfortunately, I found in nearly every paragraph, either an unsupported LEAP in logic or an assumption of facts not in evidence. More specifically... the ommission of mitigating facts or influences. So, in the immortal words of Sean Connery in the movie Hunt for Red October: "Admiral Halsey's conclusions were all wrong!" :lol:

I believe the author summed it up well in his final paragraph which I quote (because I saw no claim that I couldn't):

The bottom line is one of attitude. Populations with training in civic virtue, though armed, generally do not experience sensational massacres or high crime rates. Switzerland fits this mold. But the United States does not. As H. Rap Brown declared in the 1960s, "Violence is as American as apple pie."

What works in Switzerland, does not and would not necessarily, (by design or accident) work in America. I also noted that, as stated in his second to last paragraph, there have been many gun control restrictions enacted there in the last decade. Many of them closely approximate those proposed or enacted here in the States.

I am for gun "control" but not elimination of ownership. I support the 2nd Ammendment, but with a pragmatic view that certain restrictions or "permits" are necessary..... in OUR culture.

I can't help but be amazed at how Conservatives are currently railing against the use of "fear tactics" concerning the economy to critcize how Obama has enacted his stimulus plan, yet continue to use those same tactics to argue for the "War on Terrorism" and unfettered ownership of firearms by a populace that, by any definition, could be considered the most neurotic, undisciplined and perhaps violent of any culture in the World.

Also from your linked article, I quote:

Monarchist philosopher Jean Bodin, writing in 1606, denounced free speech and arms possession by commoners. Averring that "the most usual way to prevent sedition, is to take away the subjects' arms,"

I contend that the American experirment is based on the alternative that... the most enlightened method of preventing sedition is to ENSURE freedom of speech and the power of the vote.

You're a good man, GMAN, and a Patriot. I'd like to think that I am, as well. If there were more like you in America, there would be less of a need for those like ME! :lol2:

Hobo

[golfhobo]

Originally Posted by marylandkw

snopes.com: Australian Guns Stats

But I suppose the facts will get in the way of your arguments.

Seriously Gman, I have more guns than you can even imagine and NOBODY is coming for your or my guns. The only hype I have heard is coming from right wing nut jobs. Just like they did when Carter and Clinton were elected.

HaHa! Ya gotta LOVE "Snopes." Especially when they support my own INDIVIDUAL thought and inherent suspicion of these "canned emails!" :hellno:

Shortly after personal computers were "invented," and before Al Gore "invented" the Internet, it was said that computers would be the downfall of America. It seems that, moreso than gun control, they have been just that!

How many times must I stress, folks.... that there is NO SUBSTITUTE for doing your OWN research, or keeping your own counsel? :eek2::roll::hellno:

I would sooner surrender my ARMS than I would surrender my educated THOUGHT! Because, to do the latter would make me a Conservative! :rofl:

The KING (Bush) is dead. Long live Rush Limbaugh and Right Wing Propagandists! :lol::lol::hellno::hellno::hellno::lol2:

[TimberWolf]

As a proud holder of a Florida CWP I am not in the least worried about my gun rights. They are not in danger in my opinion. We all have this American right. The government is not going to take this right away however I do think we need to look at ownership of automatic weapons or weapons that are capable of mass destruction.

Everything in moderation.


Timberwolf

[GMAN]

Originally Posted by marylandkw

snopes.com: Australian Guns Stats

But I suppose the facts will get in the way of your arguments.

Seriously Gman, I have more guns than you can even imagine and NOBODY is coming for your or my guns. The only hype I have heard is coming from right wing nut jobs. Just like they did when Carter and Clinton were elected.

I am sure many Germans didn't think their government would take their guns in 1938, either. There is absolutely no reason for citizens to register their guns other than for the government to know who has guns and whom they need to target should they decide to take them "For the public good." I see the government doing a lot of things not guaranteed or required of them by our constitution. The government is becoming more fearful of the American citizens. When that happens they are likely to do whatever it takes for them to remain in power. The only thing gun control really does is control law abiding citizens. I don't recall hearing about any criminals who register their guns.

[GMAN]

Originally Posted by golfhobo

Shortly after personal computers were "invented," and before Al Gore "invented" the Internet, it was said that computers would be the downfall of America. It seems that, moreso than gun control, they have been just that!

I agree with you about computers. They have been both a blessing and a curse. People would rather get on the internet than have a one on one conversation.

Originally Posted by golfhobo

I would sooner surrender my ARMS than I would surrender my educated THOUGHT! Because, to do the latter would make me a Conservative! :rofl:

The KING (Bush) is dead. Long live Rush Limbaugh and Right Wing Propagandists! :lol::lol::hellno::hellno::hellno::lol2:

Actually, I think the opposite is true. The extreme left seems to follow what these radical say without taking time to investigate the truth for themselves. Liberals are now in the process of attempting to silence conservative talk radio. That is also what oppressive governments tend to do. Silence the opposition in the name of "fairness." The "fairness doctrine" is not fair. It actually silences those who disagree with them. Like the Patriot Act it is not in the interest of the American people. So now we have "King Hussein" the self anointed Messiah to lead and guide us.

I don't like some of the things we saw being done under the guise of conservatism, either. We need opposition on both sides. Either can become corrupt. Nancy and the other Socialists/Communists want to force ammunition manufacturers to number their ammo. It will do nothing but discourage honest citizens from buying ammo. So far, they have not been able to completely restrict or prevent gun ownership, but are on their way. Any group who will push through the largest spending bill in history, during the darkness of night and without even bothering to read it, cannot be trusted.

[Biscuit Lips]

Originally Posted by TimberWolf

I do think we need to look at ownership of automatic weapons or weapons that are capable of mass destruction.

Everything in moderation.


Timberwolf

So you are not interested in owning a automatic weapon? Good for you, but why are you so opposed if I want to? I just do not understand why liberals want to ban things they either do not like or disagree with. I get the same thing from liberals about by Honda motorcycle.They say that there is no need to have a motorcycle that can do 186 MPH
so therefore I should not have one because they are dangerous. Why infringe upon my rights because you are a big giant VEE-JAY-JAY? Hell, a big truck could be a vehicle of mass destruction. Let's ban those.



SOCIALISM : The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.


SOCIALISM LEADS TO COMMUNISM, AND COMMUNISM ALWAYS LEADS TO GENOCIDE!

[TimberWolf]

Biscuit lips it is a matter of opinion thats all, you have yours I have mine, I could care less about who owns an automatic weapon if you want one then get one, but I have the opinion that they are useless for everything else other then to raise your testosterone level when shooting one ( I have) and killing lots of people very quickly, (I have not) that's it there is no other practical use for those types of weapons.
I also would not waste my cash on a motorcycle that goes 186 mph, the consequences of getting caught going that fast are not worth it to me, hell I don't even jump on my 67 fastback like I used to, it's just not worth it. In florida they can confiscate your vehicle for excessive speed all they have to do is say you were racing and the vehicle belongs to the state.

I am a Disenfranchised liberal American or what ever you choose to call it, Our country is a victim to all the freedoms our forefathers fought for, there will always be someone who wants to push the rules to the limit. There will always be someone who disagrees with another, and there will always be one side agaisnt the other as long as you have democracy, both sides have an agenda and it is not to help you or I.

My 22 year old daughter is a huge Obama fan so much so as she waited 8 hours to see a pre election rally here in Central Florida on a raining night (Crazy if you ask me, however I did sleep on a side walk overnite to get tickets for Pink Floyd the Wall) My point being is she believes a change is coming to the Country and works her magic to try to convince me of the same and all I can do is say "I hope so time will tell" I want to believe but I have seen to much crap from all parties who operate our government that I have come to the self realization that all that matters is the four walls of my home, I live for my family and nobody else as in the end they will be the ones standing next to me on my death bed. If good comes to our Country in the next 4 to 12 years then I will be happy for my daughter's and my grand children. I will be happy that some where along the line her mother and I instilled some sort of belief that there is light at the end of the tunnel even when all else looks like crap, even when her father says that light is a train JUMP!!!!

I may be of liberal thought but I do not care what you do or what you believe in. live and let live...


Timberwolf