[GMAN]

Originally Posted by Windwalker

How much more effective would it be to give financial grants to people to start up small businesses, and start putting people back to work? Can you imagine how many businesses could be started with $800 billion? If each employs at least a dozen people, how many would that put to work?

I like your idea, Windwalker. Statistically there are more jobs created by small business than large ones. Your idea makes much more sense than throwing away all that money to these huge companies. Smaller companies are more able to rapidly respond to changing market conditions than these large companies. They create more jobs, pay more taxes and do more to build the economy than these big corporations. Just imagine how many jobs could be created with only 1% of that bailout money? That little amount alone would likely create more jobs than the $800 billion with all those pet programs hidden away.

[Windwalker]

Originally Posted by GMAN

I like your idea, Windwalker. Statistically there are more jobs created by small business than large ones. Your idea makes much more sense than throwing away all that money to these huge companies. Smaller companies are more able to rapidly respond to changing market conditions than these large companies. They create more jobs, pay more taxes and do more to build the economy than these big corporations. Just imagine how many jobs could be created with only 1% of that bailout money? That little amount alone would likely create more jobs than the $800 billion with all those pet programs hidden away.

I told you all that I was running for President last year.
What'd you all think? I was joking???
I was being completely serious.
Now, you're... WE'RE all stuck with at least 4 more years of "more of the same".
Except, now the $$$ figures are much higher.

Look at something very realistically...
What is the current population of the United States?
Spread around evenly, how much would each person in this country get?
What portion do you think you'll ever see under the current plan?
How much do you think the current plan is going to cost each and every one of you/us?
Personally, I think we'd all be far better of if nothing was done.

Don't know just how accurate my figures are, but $800 billion spread around the country would be about $828 for every single man, woman, and child, regardless of their station in life.

There's also another $410 billion that they have left from "somewhere"...
Let's add that in.
That's $1.21 TRILLION...
That's $1252 for every person in this country.
A family of 4 gets more than $5000.
(we might have just bailed out the auto industry.)

Obama says he will cut that in half by the end of the year...
Do I smell a "FREE LUNCH" here???

There are several problems facing people that might otherwise start up a business. The first is, of course, the funds it takes to start up that business.

The second is LIABILITY insurance. And, that is brought about by our courts (and lawyers one of which is now the President of the United States) that order punitive damages in the amount of $15 million for spilling coffee (that you know full well is hot) in your own lap. Fulton Mfg makes trailer hitches and tongue jacks. When a customer bought a ball that was too big, he put it in a lathe and cut it down. When it broke, there was a lawsuit. Even though the customer admitted, in the courtroom, to altering the ball, which means taking off the "CASE HARDENING" ( where the strength is located), the company still had to pay out big damages.

Now, with that kind of legal environment, I'm supposed to start up a business and place myself in a position to get sued? Not just no, but HELL NO!!! Let some other sucker do it.

Why do you suppose it's so attractive to place your company in another country? Much more impunity from the liability.

My son has a franchise with "Guardsman Furniture Pro". He also has a shop that is 100' X 40'. He talked to his insurance carrier about having a public showroom. His insurance premiums would have gone up more than 10 times over because he would be subjecting himself to "SLIP & FALL" liability. Even a fake slip & fall is worth $600,000 in our courts... As of about 20 years ago, and I expect it's gone up since then. Now, start up a business... Sorry about the people that honestly get real serious injury, but someone is going to have to put a stop to "WINNING THE LOTTERY" from lawsuits. You don't expect a lawyer to do that, do you?

And, if Obama is not successful in cutting this deficit in half by the end of this year, guess who gets to work at paying it off...
That family of 4 that might have gotten more than $5000 will be paying more than $15000 the way pockets get lined.
There's your "LAND-SLIDE VICTORY", folks.
I'm afraid we've been "HAD".

Now, go ahead and tell me I'm wrong, then wait and see.

[Windwalker]

In spite of a new year, and a new President, companies and businesses are still going out of business and closing down. Let's not even look at Circuit City. One example is Cox Lumber. They were located at the corner of US 41 and SR 54, in FL. The complex covers about 4 city blocks. A building supply that size employs how many people? The beginning of January, this year, they were still working. Now, they're empty and the buildings are boarded up. Take a drive through some of the industrial areas in northwest Indianapolis and see how many places are vacant... "REALESTATE AUCTION". How many people did all that put out of work?

I know of a number of businesses that can be started with as little as $100,000, and would employ about 8 people at start-up, with the potential to add more as business improves. I sure don't see it this way.

[jonp]

Your way low with the $800 billion figure. Thats without interest, the 2 Trillion they are going to throw at the banking industry and The Dems are already talking about another stimulus.

When are the Messiah Worshipers going to admit that he is an empty suit that can read a speech but has no idea what he is doing and the Dems in Congress just want to spend money we don't have on pet projects to re-make the country into a Socialist Utopia that has failed everywhere it has been tried?
There is a good reason that Russia and China have warned us in the last few weeks not to head into Socialism like they did because it cratered their country.

[GMAN]

We keep electing the same lawyers to office that are supposed to represent us. Lawyers should not be allowed to hold public office where they can pass laws and enact legislation. It is a conflict of interest. They continue passing laws which affect our lives and enhance their pocketbooks. In any other profession they would not be allowed to hold such a position where they are enhancing their own interests. Bush attempted to limit punitive damages in lawsuits. He also wanted to limit the amount a lawyer could receive in a lawsuit. Of course, he wasn't a lawyer. The legal community has a very strong lobby. They should. Most legislators in the state and federal houses are lawyers.

True change must come from the grass roots in America. Millions of American citizens don't understand how government functions or what the true cost of freedom entails. So many people are looking for a handout from the government. They don't seem to understand that a handout from the government must be paid for by someone. That someone is the American taxpayer. The bigger government becomes the more it costs to run it. The more people who work for the government the fewer who are available to pay for it. The smaller government becomes the less it costs to run and everyone needs to pay a smaller amount. People need to work to earn a living. They either work for government or private enterprise. Government takes money from private enterprise to function. Government doesn't produce or make anything but rules and taxes. Private enterprise makes our lives better, employs people and pays taxes to support the government.

We have gotten so far away from what our forefathers intended when it comes to our government. They would not recognize the government of today. Our founders were producers. They earned their own way. They didn't rely on government to subsidize them or their families. They relied on themselves and each other for their very existence. They worked out differences with words or fists. Today they call the government or a lawyer to beat someone up. I think we have lost our moral fiber, our sense of right and wrong.

This country has elected someone who promised change. Well, change is coming and at a very rapid rate. I don't think most of us will like the change these lawyers and socialists want to bring. Americans need to stand up and be counted. There are no free rides and the government isn't going to give citizens something without wanting something in return. What they want is our freedom. They want control. They have been getting more control incrementally over the last several decades. They are now in a position to push ahead at an alarming rate. I wonder how many will stand up and simply say NO?! I hear a lot of dissention but it is still mostly from the mouth out. I wonder if Americans will actually stand up to these anti American changes which will alter this country forever? What amazes me is when I hear about polls that tell a big percentage of Americans actually want more government. They want the government to provide health insurance and other services for them. They want someone to take care of them. Many Americans want to avoid taking personal responsibility for themselves. What will it take for Americans to get back to wanting a constitutional government by and for the people? When will change be too much change?

[BigWheels]

Well said GMAN and WindWalker....

Regarding the "Stimulous package", I am just thrilled (not) to be getting a tax credit of $13.00/month until next January when it will be lowered to $8.00/month. Yeah like that will stimulate the economy....

My question is how much exactly will I (and you) be paying on Tarp 1, 2, 3, 4, etc., over the coming years???? Although the government can't say, I can -- WAY TOO FREAKIN' MUCH!

Some links to ponder:
- Taking Apart the $819 billion Stimulus Package - washingtonpost.com
- Federal obligations exceed world GDP

[golfhobo]

Windwalker asked:

What percentage of the American workforce is employed by the big businesses that are getting bailed out, and what percentage of the workforce is, or was, employed by small, privately owned businesses that are now boarded up?

From: The New American Work Force

Between 1950 and late 1999, total U.S. non-farm employment grew from 45 million workers to 129.5 million workers. Most of the increase was in computer, health, and other service sectors, as information technology assumed an ever-growing role in the U.S. economy.

Much of this was part of the Dot.com "balloon and bust."

In the 1980s and 1990s, jobs in the service-producing sector -- which includes services, transportation, utilities, wholesale and retail trade, finance, insurance, real estate, and government -- rose by 35 million, accounting for the entire net gain in jobs during those two decades. The growth in service sector employment absorbed labor resources freed by rising manufacturing productivity.

Read: LAYOFFS by the manufacturing industries. Not jobs CREATED.... just laid off workers taking "service type" jobs.

Service-related industries accounted for 24.4 million jobs, or 59 percent of non-farm employment, in 1946. By late 1999, that sector had grown to 104.3 million jobs, or 81 percent of non-farm employment.

20% of workforce shifted to "lower paying jobs" (with less benefits) in the last half of last century.

Conversely, the goods-producing sector -- which includes manufacturing, construction, and mining -- provided 17.2 million jobs, or 41 percent of non-farm employment in 1946, but grew to just 25.2 million, or 19 percent of non-farm employment, in late 1999.

50% reduction in "benefited" manufacturing jobs in the same period.

But many of the new service jobs did not pay as highly, nor did they carry the many benefits, as manufacturing jobs. The resulting financial squeeze on many families encouraged large numbers of women to enter the work force.

Nothing against women working but... this means MANY of the new "service" jobs were taken by members of the SAME household. "Creating" a SECOND income job in the same household (to pay the bills) is NOT a sign of a growing economy. In fact.... they are not really NEW jobs, just "appended" jobs in the same economic household.

In the 1980s and 1990s, many employers developed new ways to organize their work forces. In some companies, employees were grouped into small teams and given considerable autonomy to accomplish tasks assigned them. While management set the goals for the work teams and monitored their progress and results, team members decided among themselves how to do their work and how to adjust strategies as customer needs and conditions changed.

Read: increase in robotics and more tasks placed on fewer workers. Higher "productivity" means fewer jobs and more profit for the companies.

Yes, restaurants qualify as a small, privately owned business. In my area, McDonalds, Wendy's, Burger King, and Checkers are still staying open, but have cut their workforce by half. Not that 12 hours/week is going to pay any bodies' mortgages.

Mega Burger joints are NOT "small businesses." They are corporations and they pay minimum wage with no benefits.

How much more effective would it be to give financial grants to people to start up small businesses, and start putting people back to work? Can you imagine how many businesses could be started with $800 billion? If each employs at least a dozen people, how many would that put to work?

In addition to the regularly budgeted expenditures for small business start-ups, there is a minimum of $640 million in the stimulus package for NEW small business start-ups. That doesn't even include the billions scheduled for energy companies, green jobs, new technology companies, etc. MOST of this money will go to small businesses

The "gubbamint" doesn't build roads, bridges, or factories. Small business CONTRACTORS do! If there are no "projects," there are no contracts for small businesses to get. Who do you think will get the MANY contracts let for rebuilding the Power Grid?

GMAN said:

Statistically there are more jobs created by small business than large ones.... Smaller companies are more able to rapidly respond to changing market conditions than these large companies. They create more jobs, pay more taxes and do more to build the economy than these big corporations.

See my above commentary. In additon, consider that MANY small businesses depend on local, state or federal "projects" for their contracts under which they employ people.

But, are we talking about the SAME kind of "small business?" If you're talking about Mary's Quilt Shop, your job outlook is skewed. I read somewhere that approximately 40% of new small businesses "FAIL" each year.

Now, in all fairness, as part of my research for this response, I see that there are different ways of looking at those "failures." But, the biggest reason for failure is lack of "financing." With banks not lending, where will they get that money?

Here's just ONE article that gives a good idea of what is going on.

Small Business Failures and Financing – The Real Story

But, my points are these:

1) When someone tells you how many jobs are "created" by small businesses each year, please don't IGNORE the fact that approximately HALF of those jobs are LOST within the first few years due to business failure. This has been a real sticking point with me when Dubya announced how many jobs were "created" during his administration.

2) Many of those "created" jobs were lower paying, unbenefitted jobs to replace the GOOD jobs we shipped overseas for the benefit of corporate PROFITS.

3) Many of those jobs were taken by a second worker in the same household, and therefore really don't count in economic terms.

4) Small businesses that are started to "service" the public.... remodeling, cleaning, driveway repair, landscaping, dog walking.... you NAME it... depend HIGHLY on the "public's" ability or NEED to pay for those services. When the PUBLIC loses it's good paying factory job, they cut those "services" out!

5) There are not enough RICH people in the country to employ the rest of us in "service jobs" (read: The Help.) Without a STRONG manufacturing based economy, there is no middle class to DRIVE the economy, and an ever-increasing LOWER class fighting for the few disappearing "service jobs" available.

Obama is doing his best to rebuild the manufacturing and LONG-TERM service type jobs for a NEW economy based on new energy technologies and revitalized infrastructure and PUBLIC works that are badly needed in this country.

At least he is planning on spending the money in AMERICA for AMERICAN jobs, instead of lining the pockets of the M/I/C to produce BOMBS to be dropped on vacant mountainsides in Asia!

SOME people want to compare his plan to the NEW DEAL that (along with WWII) helped to bring us out of the Great Depression, but NO one is talking about what got us INTO the Great Depression! And, I'll admit that I really don't KNOW cuz I never gave it much thought! Why don't you "skool me?"

I don't like EVERY aspect of Obama's economic plan. I will critcize certain aspects of it when I KNOW enough facts to support my position (unlike so many of you all.) But, I voted for "change" because I was born in the 50's and I have seen nothing but a downward slide in all aspects of this country since the end of the Eisenhower administration and the Interstate Highway project that was, arguably, the greatest "public works" project in our country's history! (Actually, I would include Kennedy's Space program in that although I believe too much is wasted on NASA at this point.)

In fact, I see a very clear demarcation line at the point that LBJ increased our involvement in a war that SPLIT the conscience of America. I see that as the FIRST time in our history that we were SO divided as a nation, and that many of us felt disenfranchised...followed closely by the betrayal of the Office of the Presidency by Nixon. The difference is that LBJ had the decency and humility to NOT seek another term (fell on his sword) whereas Nixon LIED to the nation in an attempt to KEEP control by the GOP.

Americans are never satisfied with their government, but they draw the line at DECEPTION. You may not LIKE Obama's ideals, but I don't think you can say that he is not telling you the truth about what he is doing.

Give the man a chance! At LEAST give him a year or two! He is facing a "unique" situation as to consumer confidence, financial institution crisis and corruption, and spiraling foreclosures of both homes AND businesses! If the GOP had better ideas, they should have instituted them when THEY were in power! But, they DIDN'T.... did they?! :hellno::roll:

[Syncrosonix]

9/11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB, LOUD NOISES, THE NEW WORLD ORDER, OKLAHOMA CITY WAS AN INSIDE JOB AS WELL, BARACK OBAMA IS THE SECOND COMING OF JESUS, MORE LOUD NOISES, ALIEN ABDUCTIONS, HILLARY CLINTON AND JANET RENO ARE LOVERS, WE NEVER LANDED ON THE MOON, FOLLOWED BY EVEN LOUDER NOISES! THE WORLD IS GOING TO END IN 2012! AHHHHHHHHHHHH! SUICIDE IS YOUR ONLY OPTION! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! Run to the chopper!

[dobry4u]

Originally Posted by Syncrosonix

Run to the chopper!

[Windwalker]

Originally Posted by golfhobo

Mega Burger joints are NOT "small businesses." They are corporations and they pay minimum wage with no benefits.

The "mega Burger" name is corporate, but the individual business location is a local franchise. While a franchise may own more than one location, it is NOT CORPORATE. Instead, the franchise may pay corporate $5000 or more annually for corporate support.

The local franchise is part of small business the same as an O/O is his own business even though he's leased onto Schnieder National.

Originally Posted by golfhobo

In addition to the regularly budgeted expenditures for small business start-ups, there is a minimum of $640 million in the stimulus package for NEW small business start-ups. That doesn't even include the billions scheduled for energy companies, green jobs, new technology companies, etc. MOST of this money will go to small businesses

Now, do yourself a favor and see just what it will take to get one of those grants to start up your own business. I have.

Originally Posted by golfhobo

The "gubbamint" doesn't build roads, bridges, or factories. Small business CONTRACTORS do! If there are no "projects," there are no contracts for small businesses to get. Who do you think will get the MANY contracts let for rebuilding the Power Grid?

GMAN said:



See my above commentary. In additon, consider that MANY small businesses depend on local, state or federal "projects" for their contracts under which they employ people.

But, are we talking about the SAME kind of "small business?" If you're talking about Mary's Quilt Shop, your job outlook is skewed. I read somewhere that approximately 40% of new small businesses "FAIL" each year.

Now, in all fairness, as part of my research for this response, I see that there are different ways of looking at those "failures." But, the biggest reason for failure is lack of "financing." With banks not lending, where will they get that money?

Here's just ONE article that gives a good idea of what is going on.

Small Business Failures and Financing – The Real Story

But, my points are these:

1) When someone tells you how many jobs are "created" by small businesses each year, please don't IGNORE the fact that approximately HALF of those jobs are LOST within the first few years due to business failure. This has been a real sticking point with me when Dubya announced how many jobs were "created" during his administration.

2) Many of those "created" jobs were lower paying, unbenefitted jobs to replace the GOOD jobs we shipped overseas for the benefit of corporate PROFITS.

3) Many of those jobs were taken by a second worker in the same household, and therefore really don't count in economic terms.

4) Small businesses that are started to "service" the public.... remodeling, cleaning, driveway repair, landscaping, dog walking.... you NAME it... depend HIGHLY on the "public's" ability or NEED to pay for those services. When the PUBLIC loses it's good paying factory job, they cut those "services" out!

5) There are not enough RICH people in the country to employ the rest of us in "service jobs" (read: The Help.) Without a STRONG manufacturing based economy, there is no middle class to DRIVE the economy, and an ever-increasing LOWER class fighting for the few disappearing "service jobs" available.

Obama is doing his best to rebuild the manufacturing and LONG-TERM service type jobs for a NEW economy based on new energy technologies and revitalized infrastructure and PUBLIC works that are badly needed in this country.

At least he is planning on spending the money in AMERICA for AMERICAN jobs, instead of lining the pockets of the M/I/C to produce BOMBS to be dropped on vacant mountainsides in Asia!

SOME people want to compare his plan to the NEW DEAL that (along with WWII) helped to bring us out of the Great Depression, but NO one is talking about what got us INTO the Great Depression! And, I'll admit that I really don't KNOW cuz I never gave it much thought! Why don't you "skool me?"

I don't like EVERY aspect of Obama's economic plan. I will critcize certain aspects of it when I KNOW enough facts to support my position (unlike so many of you all.) But, I voted for "change" because I was born in the 50's and I have seen nothing but a downward slide in all aspects of this country since the end of the Eisenhower administration and the Interstate Highway project that was, arguably, the greatest "public works" project in our country's history! (Actually, I would include Kennedy's Space program in that although I believe too much is wasted on NASA at this point.)

In fact, I see a very clear demarcation line at the point that LBJ increased our involvement in a war that SPLIT the conscience of America. I see that as the FIRST time in our history that we were SO divided as a nation, and that many of us felt disenfranchised...followed closely by the betrayal of the Office of the Presidency by Nixon. The difference is that LBJ had the decency and humility to NOT seek another term (fell on his sword) whereas Nixon LIED to the nation in an attempt to KEEP control by the GOP.

Americans are never satisfied with their government, but they draw the line at DECEPTION. You may not LIKE Obama's ideals, but I don't think you can say that he is not telling you the truth about what he is doing.

Give the man a chance! At LEAST give him a year or two! He is facing a "unique" situation as to consumer confidence, financial institution crisis and corruption, and spiraling foreclosures of both homes AND businesses! If the GOP had better ideas, they should have instituted them when THEY were in power! But, they DIDN'T.... did they?! :hellno::roll:

And, as I said, the "bill for our PART-TIME ECONOMY" has come due.