[golfhobo]

I am copying a response from Big Wheels into this new thread because I'd like to discuss it some more. I will TRY to keep my emotions in check! But, this issue is one that is emotionally charged for me.

In preface, let me say that I found Big Wheels's response VERY educational and heartfelt. I ALSO have enjoyed my "debates" with Terry Lamar. (I found out what an FFL is! :lol: ) I urge BOTH, and any others, to join in this discussion. I believe, in the larger scope, it may well reflect the biggest concern of our time.

Big Wheels wrote:

9/11/01 forever changed the landscape of this country and the world. Misguided spiritual zealots--we know them as terrorists--murdered 3,000+ people. Their war is a holy war. Most Americans don't get that.

In a holy war, the rules of engagement are different. There is one rule--namely, that there are no rules. Simply win at any cost--whatever it takes. Consequently it's OK to slaughter innocent civilians. In the minds of radical, right-wing Muslims, 9/11 was a huge victory. Their ultimate goal is to destroy western civilization and specifically America.

Fighting this war is unlike any other war that this country has ever fought. As such, mistakes will be made. And we will be in it for the long haul. To sit back and armchair quarterback the way in which we have gone about it so far makes me puke. Can you hear our enemies laughing? I can.

Too many of us in this narcisistic culture blow a fuse when something like 9/11 happens. This can't be happening we think. This is only supposed to happen on TV. Consequently, after a few months/years go by, we start blaming somebody for all the bodybags that are coming back from Iraq & Afghanistan. War is hell and it always will be. Anyone who thinks the war we are currently fighting is an unjust war and that our men and women are needlessly dying needs their head examined. Tell ya what--they are also more than welcome to make their permanent residence in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Iran, or for that matter, any country that knowingly harbors terrorist scumbags.

golfhobo wrote:
7) And that ALL of these societal problems are DIRECTLY related to the availability of firearms which the conservatives REFUSE to help us curtail....


That is ridiculous. Who makes the rules--you? me? A society defines morality--what's right and what's wrong--based on an ethics system. This society's system of right/wrong is based on Judao/Christian principles--the 10 commandments. Nowadays we pay lip service and treat them as the 10-suggestions. In so doing, we have strayed from rules that are designed for our good. As a result, societal decay has set in. Removing, for example, all firearms from our society won't stop the societal decay we're witnessing. Remember, the criminal/deviant/deranged individual will always be able to find a tool of destruction (whether it's a gun or not) to accomplish what he/she intends. Therefore, this isn't a conservative or liberal issue. It is a moral issue.

Golfhobo, I don't disagree in much of what you said. However, you got my dander up on some of it. That said, I respect you as an American--always will and I'd fight to the death for your right to say it.

It is perhaps a uniquely American trait that we will "fight to the death" for another's right to free speech, and in the next breath, trash them for saying something we disagree with! :lol:

I hope we remember that as we "debargue" with each other over this. We are ALL Americans, and we have, at heart, the same goal. Freedom for ourselves, and any who can achieve it; PEACE throughout the World, and, as a result, the ability to enjoy whatever life we can make for ourselves, free from oppression and turmoil.

I hope MANY of you will join me in this discussion. I promise to TRY to remain civil! And, if I fail.... I ask in advance for your patience and forgiveness. Please do not take anything I might say PERSONALLY. I don't KNOW you, and therefore, can't or shouldn't "judge" you. I just "come off" that way, sometimes.

Hobo

[Mack2]

What am I suposed to disagree with? :?

[golfhobo]

Okay, I see a few people have viewed this thread without comment. No surprise. I'm sure you're waiting to see just WHAT my point is! :lol:

As I see it, there are two "camps" with opinions of how we should have responded to 9/11. Not surprisingly, they are usually divided between GOP and DEM's. Some Dems say the GOP are overly aggressive and want to start a shooting war over everything. Some GOP's think the Dems are weak and want to "hug" it out. Neither is probably true.

There is no doubt that the events of 9/11 were as devastating to our nation as was Pearl Harbor. But, there was a difference. Pearl Harbor came at a time when the U.S. was trying to stay OUT of WWII. It was an attack BY a "sanctioned" military force ON our military forces. As such, it cannot by definition be considered a "terrorist" attack. I have often wondered WHY the Japanese chose to, in their words, "wake a sleeping giant," but I suppose it was mostly to "pre-emptively" destroy our ability to enter the war on the side of Great Britain.

9/11 was NOT such a "sanctioned" attack by a military ON a military. And thus, in MY opinion was a CRIMINAL act of agression. Since WE were allready the target of their agression in other parts of the world, it cannot be said that they were attempting to "pre-empt" our involvement. Also, since it was an isolated attack on our homeland, with little or NO plan (or ability) to follow up with additional attacks, it can hardly be expected to be part of an organized plan of terrorism within our borders.

They MUST have known they would, like the Japanese, be waking a sleeping giant who would come down on them with a massive force. Were they truly "suicidal" as a society or movement? Or might there have been other motives?

Either way, in MY opinion.... it was a CRIMINAL act, and not necessarily an act of war. Remember, there WAS NO active "war" at that time, and it could have been said that ANY of the numerous attacks on our embassies or ships could have constituted an "act of war."

Considering that, in recent months, some of our most impressive accomplishments in this "war" have come from utilizing "special forces teams," acting on good Intelligence to take out top leaders of their movement, with little or no loss of American lives, I can't help but consider that our response should have been JUST this "stealthy" and "strategic."

If you are grouse hunting, and you don't care WHICH grouse you shoot, you STOMP into a field and let the dogs "flush them out." Then you shoot a few and go home. But, if you want to kill a FOX who is raiding your henhouse, you stalk him, bait him, trick him into feeling he has a free run of your land, and then you "net" him and cut his throat!

It is MY opinion, and that of many other Dems, that we should have gone after Bin Laden in total SECRECY, with the help of our partners and their "intelligence units," and caught him napping and cut his throat! I believe that MIGHT have been the end of it all. Justice served for the lives of those lost on 9/11!

But instead, our President took a bullhorn and declared that, "the WHOLE WORLD will hear from us!" :roll:

And they have! And, as a result, they have turned out in droves to join the Jihad against us! They NEED no draft, while we refuse to enact one for this so-called "all important" WAR! They have managed to "suck us in" to a war on THEIR turf, where they can employ the Guerilla tactics that proved so successful in Vietnam!

THEY have done their homework, and learned from our past mistakes. But, I fear that WE have learned NOTHING from them, ourselves.

My position is this: Either treat 9/11 as a criminal act, and sneak up on them and capture them and bring them to justice.... or....

Declare this as a World WAR against Muslim fundamentalists, and mobilize the forces similar to those employed in WWII, and put an END to this threat to world peace!

Teddy Roosevelt said: "Speak SOFTLY and carry a BIG stick!"

Dubya has done nothing but "yell loudly over a bullhorn," and then fail to back it up by under-utilizing the greatest military in the world!

Personally, I don't believe there was a "world wide" Jihad against us until Bush invaded Iraq! But once he DID so, he has FAILED the American people by mismanaging this war to apocalyptic levels! To avoid his PERSONAL disgrace of having to re-institute the draft (following the displeasure with it from Vietnam,) he has put his "legacy" above the interests of our nation!

BigWheels said:

9/11/01 forever changed the landscape of this country and the world.

Not so much more than Pearl Harbor did. This is not necessarily so NEW.

Misguided spiritual zealots--we know them as terrorists--murdered 3,000+ people. Their war is a holy war. Most Americans don't get that.

You're right. It was "murder." That is a CRIME. That's what Terrorists do, and have done all over the world for decades. They commit CRIMES against civilians. There is, and always HAS been, ways of dealing with this that did NOT impel us to WAR. Their "beef" was to get us off their HOLY lands. We failed to recognize the importance they put on that "value," and we paid the price. I hesitate to say it, but 9/11 did NOT rise to the level of the attack on Pearl Harbor. It was NOT a declaration of WAR, even by these terrorists. WE are the ones who responded with a declaration of war, and by doing so, have given the impetus for recruitment to our enemy.

In a holy war, the rules of engagement are different. There is one rule--namely, that there are no rules. Simply win at any cost--whatever it takes. Consequently it's OK to slaughter innocent civilians.

I don't mean, or intend, to sound like a Muslim apologist here, but can you see that this is not so different from the Crusades (a Holy War) that was once waged AGAINST the Muslim nations? British troops slaughtered Muslim women and children in similar fashion. They have NOT forgotten! Indeed, Saladin (or whatever his name was) drew his sword and fought BACK (like WE are now) to protect his people's way of life! He is as much an ICON to them, as Patton or MacArthur (sp?) is to US!

In the minds of radical, right-wing Muslims, 9/11 was a huge victory. Their ultimate goal is to destroy western civilization and specifically America.

On THIS point, there is some room for discussion. Even if it IS their goal, there is no HISTORICAL precedent for their success. MY contention is, that their most important goal IS (or WAS) to simply expel our "infidel" forces from THEIR "sovereign" lands! (specifically, Saudi Arabia.) I don't really think the "fundamentalist Muslims" would know what to DO with America IF they "conquered" it! I don't think they WANT it! I'm quite SURE that the more "moderate" Muslims don't want it.

The WORLD used to be a place where only TRADE influences "invaded" other cultures. With that came Education, for which I believe they were somewhat grateful. That was followed by technical advances in agriculture, water treatment, and medicine. All "good" and peaceful ventures.

In the early part of this past century, (which we are still living in,) came two World Wars, which threatened the "sovereignty" of all world nations. People were no longer "FREE" to continue being the societies they grew up knowing. To accept "liberation" from the aggressor nations (Nazi's and Fascists) they were forced to "accept" the presence of the "superpowers" that liberated them. Some got Russia.... others got US! Although WE see the difference.... I'm not so sure THEY did!

NEITHER of us ever "learned" it was time to go home and let people BE!

We divided their lands, drew lines that included peoples who didn't like each other, and propped up oppressive governments that were meant to "ameliorate" the population to our needs.

The situation we find the world in today has LESS to do with "Jacob's heel" than it does with Caesar's LUST!

Do I think that pulling ALL our troops out of Muslim lands, at this late stage, would make a difference? I can't say that I KNOW! But, with the concerted aid of REAL truthful diplomacy, it MIGHT work! But, we will NEVER know, if we don't start a "dialogue" with these people to find out just what they REALLY want!

But, I can't help thinking it is not so different from the Middle Ages. They want our IPODS, but they don't want our troops or our "government." When America was YOUNG, we went to foreign lands with respect and "gifts" of tobacco and medicine. THEN, we started to bring them GUNS! The REST of history can be blamed on the PRO-GUN, "anti-smoking" lobbyists! :lol:

Oh... I KID the MIC (Military Industrial Complex) and the "ME Generation," now..... but, I have made my points. And it's REALLY all about OIL, anyway! :lol: Anybody who's ever seen the movie "Three Days of the Condor" knows what I'm talking about.

Hobo

[golfhobo]

Originally Posted by Mack2

What am I suposed to disagree with? :?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Thanks, Mack2, for jumping in! :lol:

You're supposed to disagree with EVERYTHING that "I" didn't say! :lol:

Just kidding! :wink:

Of course, I hadn't really SAID anything yet, so you were a bit "premature!" Kind of like my last sexual episode! :lol: :lol:

It happens to us "young" guys, now and then! :shock: :lol:

[o.k. so I'm 50 now! That should tell you how long it's been! ] :shock: :lol:

But, enough about my life! :lol:

As a "youngster" facing what we've made of this world.... whaddaya think?

when YOU are 50, do you want to STILL be fighting in Iraq? Or do you see another road to peace? I've served my time, and done my duty. Now it is up to YOUR generation! What SAY you? Will it be another of history's "100 year wars?" Or do you have a better answer? I sure HOPE you do!

[greg3564]

Hobo,

9/11 was, as you said, not a war in a conventional sense. It was an attack by an organization that is both well funded and well equiped. I was and still am 100% behind the operations in Afganistan. I feel that Bush made the poorest decision is his career by pulling resources to go after Iraq.

Iraq was a complete farce. That said I support our troops and this in no ways is to be construed as an attack on them. But, Bush blatantly lied to our faces about WMD's. It turns out, after we dismantled his government, that he and his government were on the verge of collapse due to sanctions imposed all these years. I do agree that the Iraq people were suffering. However, Iraq posed NO threat to the USA. There were no WMD's and there was no Al Queda. It wasn't until AFTER we occupied Iraq did Al Queda exist. Talk about irony!

Now Iraq is in a civil war. Turkey wants to invade to north to take out the Kurds. Iran is helping insurgents and operating their own special forces in Iraq. Over 3000 American soldiers have lost their lives. Over what? Lies.

Now before I start getting labeled a Bush basher, I voted for the man twice. I'm a life long Republican and a conservative. Bush is trying to do things that majority of Americans don't want- 1. Staying in this war with Iraq. 2. Trying to pass this horrible immigration law.

Off the soap box now. Thanks!

[Mack2]

Golfhobo I don't know what I would do but I do know or think this will end up being World War 3 just a whole lot longer than the last 2.

Well to fix the problem in Iraq the simplest answer I can come up with is turn them into a giant parking lot.

Though what I recomend is to identfi sertain targets and use these smart bombs to take those targets out also using special forces to kill there leaders and just disrupt the whole terrorist activite.

Also we need to do somthing about Iran.

[usedup]

OK, I'll bite......These are my crib note views only as I don't want to start any hate and disconnect.
GUNS... I feel any "qualified" citizen should be allowed to conceal carry if they feel the need. The police can not protect you, they can only fill out the reports after the fact. I hope I never need one...
MORAL DECAY...Morals started going down the tubes when people started thinking more about ME instead of WE or US......
JIHAD... Understand this.. These people want to kill you because you are different, Jewish, American, White, or whatever. They are taught to hate from an early age. Very similar to the NAZIS of the 30s and 40s.
ME.. I'm old enough to remember WWII, Korean Conflict, and served during Viet Nam. This country has lost it's collective backbone. There is no way you can negotiate with a fanatic. Look at history.
Sorry to ramble, my mind goes faster than my fingers.

[BigWheels]

Hey Hobo,

Thanks for the invite....

Hmmm...Guns, Moral Decay, and Jihad. That's three distinct topics! And yet they are intertwined....

As I tucked my 8-year-old son into bed this evening, I got to thinking on how he pretty much trusts me and depends on me (and his mom) for everything in his life. He makes sense of his world through his mom and dad. As he gets older, he will use what he's learned from his parents and combine that with his own knowledge and experience to forge his own "worldview."

All of us have a worldview. It helps us make sense of this gig we call life.

The challenge we face in discussing Guns, Moral Decay, and Jihad is to realize that we don't have the same worldview. As such, it's difficult for us to arrive at the same conclusion on various topics such as those mentioned.

Do you recall Pilate asking Jesus Christ the question "What is truth?" That question reveals what mankind wrestles with on a daily basis. We are on a quest for finding truth--not subjective truth which is subject to interpretation--but objective truth--truth which is not subject to interpretation.

As long as we all can realize that our playing field consists of various worldview points as well as different perspectives on what truth is (subjective/objective), we should have a lively discussion. If we fail to realize these things, than we might as well call our conversation a circus and charge admission...at least we'd get paid for our time and energy!

I'll chime in as time permits....

[golfhobo]

Originally Posted by greg3564

Hobo,

9/11 was, as you said, not a war in a conventional sense. It was an attack by an organization that is both well funded and well equiped. I was and still am 100% behind the operations in Afganistan. I feel that Bush made the poorest decision is his career by pulling resources to go after Iraq.

Al Queda, at the time, was well funded, but NOT so well "organizesd" or equipped. And, it CERTAINLY was not in Iraq! They got "lucky" with the collapse of the towers. More "bang" for their "buck" so to speak. It was a "coup" of sorts. But, it may have turned into a "coup de grace!"

I, too, was behind my President, when he dedicated military forces and hardware against the Taliban for supporting Bin Laden! I have a "conservative streak" in me, and I wanted to see blood and guts as a result of our resolve to catch this "criminal" and depose any government that suported him. But, It didn't take long for me to realize that we had taken the wong "tack." I quickly realized that we should have used a more "stealthy" approach. Sadly, my President never even stopped long enough to "consider" this option.

He was "Hell bent for leather" and wanted Bin Ladin "Dead or Alive." He had no choice but to continue his "Buckaroo" tactics to the stage of "Mission Accomplished." It is in his DNA, and his programming.

But, his "foray" into Iraq, I believe was personal, and preplanned. And, as you say, was Ill advised. It will BE his downfall, and his legacy. And has stirred up a hornets' nest that even the "truest" of intelligence experts could not have foreseen.

He has, in OUR lingo, driven down a one way street, and has no PLAN as to how to "back out." He's a "noobie" turned loose by an ignorant company!

Iraq was a complete farce. That said I support our troops and this in no ways is to be construed as an attack on them. But, Bush blatantly lied to our faces about WMD's. It turns out, after we dismantled his government, that he and his government were on the verge of collapse due to sanctions imposed all these years. I do agree that the Iraq people were suffering. However, Iraq posed NO threat to the USA. There were no WMD's and there was no Al Queda. It wasn't until AFTER we occupied Iraq did Al Queda exist. Talk about irony!

Nearly EVERY member here is ex-military of some sort! We ALL support our troops! These men and women are performing to the best of their ability and training! You might forgive me if I don't call them ALL "heroes" as I believe that diminishes the bravery, dedication and sacrifice of those who lie under white crosses in France, Italy, and Britain! .... and plays right into the hands of the "propaganda machine of the Bush Administration!

Now Iraq is in a civil war. Turkey wants to invade to north to take out the Kurds. Iran is helping insurgents and operating their own special forces in Iraq. Over 3000 American soldiers have lost their lives. Over what? Lies.

Now before I start getting labeled a Bush basher, I voted for the man twice. I'm a life long Republican and a conservative. Bush is trying to do things that majority of Americans don't want- 1. Staying in this war with Iraq. 2. Trying to pass this horrible immigration law.

Dubya couldn't care LESS what the American people want! His polls show, as you mentioned, that he is alone in his agenda! At this point, there is no better rationale than PRIDE. At this point, I believe even GOD has quit talking to him! :roll: :lol:

It is no longer a matter of "Bush Lied, Americans Died." It is now, For Bush's PRIDE, Americans have DIED!

And THIS is what I"ve been saying all along!

[golfhobo]

sorry, double post due to problems with CAD and "invalid sessions."

Ha Ha, NOW, I have to hit submit on THIS post. Better "back it up" by copyiing it and htting Preview first, then submit, submit, submit, submit, submit, until my fingers are numb!

Ha ha....told you so!

Submit, dammit!!! This is NOT an "invalid session!" :roll:

and again, he tries!