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Papa Rick · Joined: 07 Sep 2006 Posts: 307 Location: North Alabama

I got my package from the Alabama DOT, and have a few questions:

1. In the papers there was a post trip sheet? I have always done my Pre-Trips prior to starting my driving day, but never did a post-trip? I do check everything out on my truck/trailer every weekend very well, and annotate anything that is wrong.

The letter states that this is one of the first forms that will be asked for in an audit or if you have an accident.

Does anyone do a Pre-Trip and Post Trip every day, and if so how do you annotate it on your inspection sheet?

I have the inspection sheet, but it does not say pre-trip or post trip on it?

2. The letter states I must be involved in a drug program for drug testing, and that I need to join a consortium that does this type testing. I thought that when I got my Health Card that this would be ok for my drug testing, but the letter clearly points out this has nothing to do with a drug program.

How would you suggest that I find a company that does this, just start calling up Trucking Companies to try and find one that does this or what?

kc0iv · Joined: 03 Feb 2005 Posts: 1081 Location: Kansas City, MO

Papa Rick wrote: I got my package from the Alabama DOT, and have a few questions:

1. In the papers there was a post trip sheet? I have always done my Pre-Trips prior to starting my driving day, but never did a post-trip? I do check everything out on my truck/trailer every weekend very well, and annotate anything that is wrong.

The letter states that this is one of the first forms that will be asked for in an audit or if you have an accident.

Does anyone do a Pre-Trip and Post Trip every day, and if so how do you annotate it on your inspection sheet?

I have the inspection sheet, but it does not say pre-trip or post trip on it?

2. The letter states I must be involved in a drug program for drug testing, and that I need to join a consortium that does this type testing. I thought that when I got my Health Card that this would be ok for my drug testing, but the letter clearly points out this has nothing to do with a drug program.

How would you suggest that I find a company that does this, just start calling up Trucking Companies to try and find one that does this or what?

Per FMCSA regulations Part 396 Inspection, Repair, and Maintenance you are required to do a Post Trip Inspection and recorded the results of that test. Quote: §396.11 Driver vehicle inspection report(s).

(a) Report required. Every motor carrier shall require its drivers to report, and every driver shall prepare a report in writing at the completion of each day's work on each vehicle operated and the report shall cover at least the following parts and accessories:

see: http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.asp?section=396.11#49CFR396.11

If you look at (d) of this rule there is a exception Quote: (d) Exceptions. The rules in this section shall not apply to a private motor carrier of passengers (nonbusiness), a driveaway-towaway operation, or any motor carrier operating only one commercial motor vehicle.

I would not recommend using this exception however.

Pre Trip Section 396.13 requirement
Quote: §396.13 Driver inspection.

Before driving a motor vehicle, the driver shall:

(a) Be satisfied that the motor vehicle is in safe operating condition;

(b) Review the last driver vehicle inspection report; and

(c) Sign the report, only if defects or deficiencies were noted by the driver who prepared the report, to acknowledge that the driver has reviewed it and that there is a certification that the required repairs have been performed. The signature requirement does not apply to listed defects on a towed unit which is no longer part of the vehicle combination.

As you can see the Post Trip is required with a report. The Pre Trip while not requireing a report you must be inspect the previous report and be satisfied the motor vehicle is safe to operate.

While reading the interpretations on section 396.13 I find something I would call a little odd
Quote: Question 2: At the end of the day's work and upon completion of the required DVIR, what does the driver do with the copy of the previous DVIR carried on the power unit?

Guidance: There is no requirement that the driver submit the copy of that previous DVIR to the motor carrier nor is there a retention requirement for the motor carrier.

So you do not have to retain the previous copy of the DVIR. You only have to have the last inspection report.

I wouldn't recommend NOT keeping it in the file however.

As far as using a consortium for drug testing I would recommend OOIDA.

kc0iv

Papa Rick · Joined: 07 Sep 2006 Posts: 307 Location: North Alabama

When I read over the letter ADOT sent me, it said that the pre-trip was prior to starting my driving, and the posttrip was to be done at the end of the day?

It also states that any type of maintenance done on the truck must be annotated on the post trip inspection sheet.

I could not find in the letter if I am to do a inspection sheet on both my:

Pre-Trip Inspection and Post-Trip Inspection.

The letter states that the Pre-Trip should take 5 minutes, just a quick walk around to check: Tires, etc......, and the reason for the 5 minutes is that at the end of the previous day, it should have taken 30 minutes to 1 hour to do the post-trip, which is very detailed.

I don't have to keep a log book due to the fact that I stay within 100 air mile radius so I don't have to log it, but just want to be sure to be legal.

Any suggestions and advice would be greatly appreciated.

glasman2 · Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:55 am Post subject:

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought it was the other way around.
Per-trip 15 to 30 minutes to make sure it's safe to drive, post trips during stops and at the end of the day.

Rev.Vassago · Joined: 04 Apr 2006 Posts: 5171 Location: Green Bay, WI

Papa Rick wrote: I could not find in the letter if I am to do a inspection sheet on both my:

Pre-Trip Inspection and Post-Trip Inspection.

The letter states that the Pre-Trip should take 5 minutes, just a quick walk around to check: Tires, etc......, and the reason for the 5 minutes is that at the end of the previous day, it should have taken 30 minutes to 1 hour to do the post-trip, which is very detailed.

I don't have to keep a log book due to the fact that I stay within 100 air mile radius so I don't have to log it, but just want to be sure to be legal.

Any suggestions and advice would be greatly appreciated.

The paperwork sheet gets done on the post trip inspection.

Good luck doing a pre trip inspection in 5 minutes. :lol:

Here's what a pre-trip consists of:

Quote: §383.113 Required skills.

(c) Air brake skills. Except as provided in §383.95, all applicants shall demonstrate the following skills with respect to inspection and operation of air brakes:

(c)(1) Pre-trip inspection skills. Applicants shall demonstrate the skills necessary to conduct a pre-trip inspection which includes the ability to:

(c)(1)(i) Locate and verbally identify air brake operating controls and monitoring devices;

(c)(1)(ii) Determine the motor vehicle's brake system condition for proper adjustments and that air system connections between motor vehicles have been properly made and secured;

(c)(1)(iii) Inspect the low pressure warning device(s) to ensure that they will activate in emergency situations;

(c)(1)(iv) Ascertain, with the engine running, that the system maintains an adequate supply of compressed air;

(c)(1)(v) Determine that required minimum air pressure build up time is within acceptable limits and that required alarms and emergency devices automatically deactivate at the proper pressure level; and

(c)(1)(vi) Operationally check the brake system for proper performance.

§392.7 Equipment, inspection and use.

No commercial motor vehicle shall be driven unless the driver is satisfied that the following parts and accessories are in good working order, nor shall any driver fail to use or make use of such parts and accessories when and as needed:

Service brakes, including trailer brake connections.

Parking (hand) brake.

Steering mechanism.

Lighting devices and reflectors.

Tires.

Horn.

Windshield wiper or wipers.

Rear-vision mirror or mirrors.

Coupling devices.

Here's what a post-trip consists of, besides the paperwork:

Quote: §396.11 Driver vehicle inspection report(s).

(a) Report required. Every motor carrier shall require its drivers to report, and every driver shall prepare a report in writing at the completion of each day's work on each vehicle operated and the report shall cover at least the following parts and accessories:

Service brakes including trailer brake connections

Parking (hand) brake

Steering mechanism

Lighting devices and reflectors

Tires

Horn

Windshield wipers

Rear vision mirrors

Coupling devices

Wheels and rims

Emergency equipment

Papa Rick · Joined: 07 Sep 2006 Posts: 307 Location: North Alabama

Thanks Everyone this is what I thought also, that the Pre-Trip would be the longest one, and post trip shorter.

I have ordered the FMSCA Book, as could not find one at the Truck Stops where I travel. I am looking forward to getting this book and getting a better understanding of everything.

Thank You Everyone for the great advice that you have gave me. I really appreciate it very much.

Does anyone know where I could find the FMSCA on line, as well as a on line place that explains this book?

Papa Rick · Joined: 07 Sep 2006 Posts: 307 Location: North Alabama

Hey Rev, forgot a question for you, does this mean that I don't have to do paperwork on the Pre-Trip in the morning, but to wait until I get through in the evening and do the Post Trip and annotate it?

Papa Rick · Joined: 07 Sep 2006 Posts: 307 Location: North Alabama

Sorry Rev, just got through reading your 1st reply to me and saw what I just asked you. I have to read things sometimes 3 or 4 times before I get it in my thinking.

Thanks Rev for the great information.

GMAN · Joined: 13 Feb 2005 Posts: 9282 Location: Tennessee

Just a couple of notes on your questions. You should allow at least 15 minutes for your pre-trip on your log book. All you really need to do on the post trip is to note that it was done on the log at the end of the day. There are several companies who will help you with the drug consortium. OOIDA has a source that runs about $125/year, I believe. You can call them and ask. Most of them seem to run around $100/year per driver. There is a new log book which might help you keep your mileage, logs and inspections together. I found them at Pilot. Everything you need is on one sheet with perforations. The size is about letter size. I don't know exactly were you live in North Alabama, but I have also seen them at the Petro II at the Rainbow City exit, just South of Gadsden.

Papa Rick · Joined: 07 Sep 2006 Posts: 307 Location: North Alabama

Thanks GMAN, I don't use a log book, but time sheet as I never go over 100 air mile radius. I found a website JJ Keller, and plan on ordering some inspection reports from them.

Thanks again.

Useless · Joined: 08 Oct 2005 Posts: 3136 Location: Canyon Lake, Tx.

Regarding the Pre-Trip and Post-Trip Inspections, the issue is not strictly a regulatory matter. effective and thorough inspections also serve as a tool to ensure not only compliance and safety, but also serve as an effective tool to keep you rolling, and avoid breakdowns as well.

Pre-Trip Inspection:
It would seem natural to me, and I sincerely hope that it would seem natural to you, to ensure that your T/T is properly prepared to roll , with everything working as it should be. if something is wrong, then you want it fixed before you start rolling.

Post-Trip Inspection:
Before you shut down, would it not make sense to identify anything that is not working properly, and have it tended to before you head out, rather than facing a delay to address a problem before you can start driving again??

Both Pre-Trip, and Post-Trip Inspections should serve as a valuable tools to allow you to operate more safely, and more efficiently. Use them as tools.

I would always make note of whatever repairs or adjustments were needed, record my tire pressure, and how many lbs. of air I added to a tire when needed, as well as type and quantity of fluids I added. That way, if I ever got pulled behind a chicken house for an inspection, I could effectively demonstrate that I had, in fact, conducted a true inspection, as opposed to perfunctorily marking checks on a check list.

Doing that saved me from having to worry so much about regulatory compliance issues.

Papa Rick · Joined: 07 Sep 2006 Posts: 307 Location: North Alabama

Thanks Useless, I do a inspection of my Truck and Trailer prior to starting out, and at the end of the day. Sometimes when I am waiting to get loaded I do the minor things of inspection and have caught a few items doing this.

I bought a 1985 FLC, and although it has been taken good care of, just the fact that it is 21 years old is enough to make me pay close attention to it.

It also serves me well to document anything wrong with the Truck in case of an accident.

The main question I was wanting to know is which one to write on the inspection sheet as a Pre or Post Trip, and this has been answered.

I do appreciate the advice and info though, as one can never learn enough in life.

Useless · Joined: 08 Oct 2005 Posts: 3136 Location: Canyon Lake, Tx.

I drafted a checklist on my computer, and used it for both Pre-Trip and Post-Trip Inspections. I completed the company inspection form and indicated that it was a Post Trip inspection; can't quote any statutes here, I just checked with our Safety Dept, and asked them what they wanted.

Seems as though most attention is focused upon the Post Trip, although in my mind, they are both equally important!!

kc0iv · Joined: 03 Feb 2005 Posts: 1081 Location: Kansas City, MO

Useless wrote: I drafted a checklist on my computer, and used it for both Pre-Trip and Post-Trip Inspections. I completed the company inspection form and indicated that it was a Post Trip inspection; can't quote any statutes here, I just checked with our Safety Dept, and asked them what they wanted.

Seems as though most attention is focused upon the Post Trip, although in my mind, they are both equally important!!

Check
http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.asp?rule_toc=765&section=396.11&section_toc=1953

kc0iv

golfhobo · Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:29 pm Post subject:

Papa Rick wrote: Thanks Everyone this is what I thought also, that the Pre-Trip would be the longest one, and post trip shorter.

I have ordered the FMSCA Book, as could not find one at the Truck Stops where I travel. I am looking forward to getting this book and getting a better understanding of everything.

Thank You Everyone for the great advice that you have gave me. I really appreciate it very much.

Does anyone know where I could find the FMSCA on line, as well as a on line place that explains this book?

As for the OVERALL regs concerning CMV's, start HERE:

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrguide.asp?section_type=A

It sounds like you may be an O/O as WELL as driving shorthaul. I'm not terribly familiar with either. You may find MORE help from O/O's on their forum on this message board. Shorthaul provisions will be found within the link I gave you.

I'm not familiar with the "package" you got, nor the inspection sheets. I guess my company does things differently. I will say THIS: I don't care what ANYONE says, the PRE-TRIP is the most important from a SAFETY standpoint! If you don't fill out a log, you don't have the box that you check for pre and post trip inspections, or the info on the back of the logsheet. Your situation is very different from most of ours!

I beleive the biggest failing of the fmcsa and it's regulations is their "supposition" that ALL CMV's are driven by company drivers with "garages" to handle their repairs. Followed immediately by their misunderstanding of the HOURS that many of us work.

Edit: Actually, the biggest failing is their "tailoring" of their rules around SOLO drivers.... as if there were no TEAMS!

The fact that you have been "directed" to find a drug testing "consortium" leads me to believe you are not a company driver.

I suggest you also check out the OOIDA website for more info that applies to you. I don't have the link handy. Google it.

More info on your situation would be helpful. In the absence of that, I HOPE we have been helpful.

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