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Thread: Replacing EGR ISX with Non-EGR

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    Copperhead's Avatar
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    Default Replacing EGR ISX with Non-EGR

    Curious about those with more mechanical /technical knowledge than me. How difficult would it be to replace an EGR ISX engine with a pre-EGR ISX? Are different wiring harness' required? Anyone done this or seen it done?

    I have the EGR unplugged (with excellent results) on my '06 ISX. But when the time comes to rebuild, was considering getting a pre-EGR engine assembly and rebuilding it instead. Then replace the current engine with the other engine.

    Any thoughts? California not an issue since I do not go there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Copperhead View Post
    California not an issue since I do not go there.
    I don't think, it's going to be legal,, on 06 truck.... in any state.
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    Quote Originally Posted by solo379 View Post
    I don't think, it's going to be legal,, on 06 truck.... in any state.
    It is legal. Right now, a person could buy a 2010 Coronado, Columbia, or Pete 389 and have a rebuilt pre-egr engine put in it. Emissions are tied to the engine..... not the chassis. As long as the engine complies to the year which IT was manufactured, it is legal. The only issue involved is CARB acceptance would not be there. Not because of the swap, but because a pre-egr engine will not be allowed to operate in California.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Copperhead View Post
    It is legal. Right now, a person could buy a 2010 Coronado, Columbia, or Pete 389 and have a rebuilt pre-egr engine put in it. Emissions are tied to the engine..... not the chassis. As long as the engine complies to the year which IT was manufactured, it is legal. The only issue involved is CARB acceptance would not be there. Not because of the swap, but because a pre-egr engine will not be allowed to operate in California.

    It IS ILLEGAL to remove any diesel engine that meets post-'04 (EGR) emissions standards, to be replaced with an engine that meets previous, non-EGR (pre-'04) emissions levels.

    Also, it is ILLEGAL to remove a '96 (OBD2) gasoline engine and replace it with an older engine that does not meet OBD2 certification; examples - OBD engines... or 'carburated' engines for the performance guys.

    ...just as a couple of examples.

    Your example with the 2010 Columbine is a loop hole used by truck manufacturers to get away from selling the currently undesirable '10 compliant engines; they spend epa emissions credits to certify these vehicles.

    I have the EPA documents that describe this regulation in great detail. Take a look here (U.S. Environmental Protection Agency) or contact them ... however, if you plan to go ahead with the swap either way, I wouldn't leave your contact info ;]
    Bob H

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    Quote Originally Posted by Copperhead View Post
    Curious about those with more mechanical /technical knowledge than me. How difficult would it be to replace an EGR ISX engine with a pre-EGR ISX? Are different wiring harness' required? Anyone done this or seen it done?

    I have the EGR unplugged (with excellent results) on my '06 ISX. But when the time comes to rebuild, was considering getting a pre-EGR engine assembly and rebuilding it instead. Then replace the current engine with the other engine.

    Any thoughts? California not an issue since I do not go there.

    Your ECM would need a new, pre-EGR program. It might be easier on the engine side if you had the ECM to match the older engine, but you may then find differences between the OEM connections from the truck chassis, if the chassis's are the same.
    Bob H

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob h View Post
    It IS ILLEGAL to remove any diesel engine that meets post-'04 (EGR) emissions standards, to be replaced with an engine that meets previous, non-EGR (pre-'04) emissions levels.

    Also, it is ILLEGAL to remove a '96 (OBD2) gasoline engine and replace it with an older engine that does not meet OBD2 certification; examples - OBD engines... or 'carburated' engines for the performance guys.

    ...just as a couple of examples.

    Your example with the 2010 Columbine is a loop hole used by truck manufacturers to get away from selling the currently undesirable '10 compliant engines; they spend epa emissions credits to certify these vehicles.

    I have the EPA documents that describe this regulation in great detail. Take a look here (U.S. Environmental Protection Agency) or contact them ... however, if you plan to go ahead with the swap either way, I wouldn't leave your contact info ;]
    Ok. Instead of a link to the main site and making someone search thru that government junk, then provide the documentation. I would contend you are correct regarding an auto or pickup, but with class 8 trucks, the emissions is tied to the engine and not the chassis. Else you would not be able to buy a 2010 Coronado or Columbia and then put in a 2000 DDEC IV engine legally, which of course, is legal to do. Has nothing to do with emissions "credits". You are only buying the chassis from the OEM parts stream, not off a lot, and then you provide the engine and drive train. Check with a number of dealers that are putting these together, including Fitzgerald Truck out of TN. They specialize in doing this. OEM's have nothing to do with this, so no "loophole" as you suggest. Like I stated, check with Fitzgerald and even a few FL dealers that are doing these "kits" and see if I am full of buffalo bagels. But regarding the OEM's, this also is why a 2010 model year from a manufacturer can have a 2009 engine in it. The engine and the chassis are considered separate entities. Only engines manufactured in 2010 have to meet 2010 emissions requirements. Same was true for when the '07 emissions requirements were implemented. A 2007 truck could have a 2006 emissions engine in it, until the 2006 engines ran out and then the 2007 manufactured engines had to meet 2007 requirements with the DPF. This is why Cummins, Detroit, and Cat have ramped up production in the past just prior to a new emissions change. So the OEM's could meet customer demand and provide a lot of engines that were made before the newer emissions requirements kicked in.

    But if you can prove me wrong thru the documentation, you could also make a killing proving the OEM's and third parties are wrong also. Since there are no government lawsuits to date against companies like Fitzgerald, I am skeptical of your claims.
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    im a little confused.......you say you have a isx egr 2006 engine? was it a late model egr isx? cuz most started 2007?
    anyway u probably have got info now ...but u do know that the harnesses for pre isx egr are differrent than egr models
    the plug connections are completely different..... egr model 2006? to 2008 are 1-power plug 1- 60pin plug and 1-50pin plug
    whereas the good old pre egr has 3 of the same plug connections. my 2 bits anyway
    dj

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    moe
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    Default confused

    Yes you are confused. You are confusing egr with dpf maybe. I also have an 06 egr Isx and I am positive of that because I disconnected it myself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JBALLELECTRONICS View Post
    im a little confused.......you say you have a isx egr 2006 engine? was it a late model egr isx? cuz most started 2007?
    anyway u probably have got info now ...but u do know that the harnesses for pre isx egr are differrent than egr models
    the plug connections are completely different..... egr model 2006? to 2008 are 1-power plug 1- 60pin plug and 1-50pin plug
    whereas the good old pre egr has 3 of the same plug connections. my 2 bits anyway
    dj
    The DPF was new for '07 engines... the EGR valve was already there for years.....

    That's some good info for someone who is selling #5200$ re-programmed Cummins ECMs..... seemingly quite knowledgeable about the product :-(

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    I too have an '06 EGR ISX (unplugged like Copperhead) and was thinking the same thing about JBALL's post. Scary.
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    are tese new motors not trusted in U.S.A we have had trouble with signature but got isx in new trucks now

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    It is illegal to take an existing truck and replace the engine with an older model. What you are describing is a glider kit and it is designated as such on the title. This loophole was intended to allow a trucker to salvage a perfectly good drivetrain from his wrecked truck and get up and running without incurring the cost of a brand new truck. Of course, with the advent of the emissions engines the industry morphed into something else. Nevertheless, putting an older engine in a new glider is not considered the same as replacing an engine with an older engine.

    If the legality isn't a concern, you can get the components to return your current engine to the pre-EGR state. The full package will cost about $7400 for parts, including a reprogram of the ECM.

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    Got the info I needed. I can get a pre-egr ISX, rebuild it, and put it in. I can send the existing firewall to engine wiring harness to Mawk Industries and they will rewire for the pre-egr engine. Total plug and play deal. Mawk can redo a wiring harnes for just about any engine to truck combination.
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    Came across another option that might be better. A company out of B.C. is offering reprogrammed ECM's that eliminate EGR's and/or DPF's. Can then remove EGR, cooler, and associated plumbing from engine and maintain same serial number engine that was put into the truck. These guys will reprogram or supply replacement ECM's for Cat, Detroit, Cummins that will remove function from EGR and sensors. If one wants, then can remove all the hanging equipment. Anyone interested, do a search on Ebay under your favorite engine brand/model and you should find them.
    A superior driver uses superior judgement to avoid situations which require superior skill.

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