Dear Golfhobo,

[Rev.Vassago]

The driver simply cannot operate a CMV while OOS. He can be on duty (not driving) as much as he wants. (So says the REV!)

You've had that in your sig line for a very long time now, and I still stand by it as much today as the day I posted it. So now it's time to put up or shut up. Here's the pertinent regulation:

Part 395.13: Hours of service of drivers - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration


Prove me wrong. I dare you. I TRIPLE DOG DARE YOU.

[allan5oh]

Which part, the first or the second?

[Rev.Vassago]

Here's the context:

No Luck!!!!

[golfhobo]

You've had that in your sig line for a very long time now, and I still stand by it as much today as the day I posted it. So now it's time to put up or shut up. Here's the pertinent regulation:

Part 395.13: Hours of service of drivers - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration


Prove me wrong. I dare you. I TRIPLE DOG DARE YOU.

Gee.... I can't BELIEVE we are back to THIS one! Methinks you are afraid I will go away (after my LAST post) without suitable contention to deal with.

What IS a "triple dog dare?" Does that mean if I WIN, I have to babysit 3 of your coondogs?

The PROOF that you desire is in the post you linked to as the "context" post. I've already PROVED this! [And so did YOU by quoting the regs!]

But.... if you desire more conversation and further humiliation on the subject, I'll oblige..... if I have time.

On "the other hand," I've grown weary of having that accusation in my sigline, and am willing to delete it. But, NOT because it is not TRUE! You DID say that, and it IS proven incorrect by the regs.

I realize how HARD it is for you, REV, to admit that I am right. But.... you HAVE done it before. IF you admit it now, in THIS case, I will remove the sigline and replace it with something that makes you smell like a rose!

[Rev.Vassago]

Gee.... I can't BELIEVE we are back to THIS one!

You're the one who is keeping it alive.

Sabine: I see what you wrote, and thanks for agreeing with me!

[golfhobo]

Golfhobo (the resident expert on regs,) quoted the REV as saying:

The driver simply cannot operate a CMV while OOS. He can be on duty (not driving) as much as he wants. (So says the REV!)

You've had that in your sig line for a very long time now, and I still stand by it as much today as the day I posted it. So now it's time to put up or shut up. Here's the pertinent regulation:

Part 395.13: Hours of service of drivers - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration


Prove me wrong. I dare you. I TRIPLE DOG DARE YOU.

I WELCOME this discussion. But first.... let's begin with a disucssion or an agreement on what constitutes ON DUTY TIME.

Or more specifically.... what is meant by "operating a CMV."

In the "Alcohol and CMV" thread.... I contend that a PARKED truck with all brakes "popped" is NOT IN OPERATION. I guess I should have specified (and I believe I did) that I meant one that is parked in a truckstop and the driver is considered "off duty" for a 10 hour break.... NOT waiting on a dispatch, etc.

I believe that a truck parked AT A DOCK, where the driver is "in readiness to move the vehicle" UNLESS he's been given notice of a timeframe that allows him to enter the SLEEPER BERTH for a designated amount of time, is ON DUTY/NOT DRIVING.

He is responsible for exchanging paperwork with the shipper/receiver, and possibly "monitoring" the loading/unloading of the freight. ALL OF THESE duties are considered line 4 activities. And ALL LINE 4 time is ON DUTY time.

Now... according to the REG YOU cited....

(d) Responsibilities of the driver. (1) No driver who has been declared out of service shall operate a commercial motor vehicle until that driver may lawfully do so under the rules of this Part.

(d)(2) No driver who has been declared out of service, for failing to prepare a record of duty status, shall operate a commercial motor vehicle until the driver has been off duty for the appropriate number of consecutive hours required by this part and is in compliance with this section.

That CLEARLY means that a driver put OOS MUST log the required 10 hours (or more) in an OFF DUTY status before "operating a CMV."

As I believe I said in that thread, the LEO probably broke the law by allowing him to continue to the receiver. That is a discretionary decision NOT addressed by the FMCSR's. However..... ONCE he entered the receiver's property.... bumping the dock WAS clealy an ON DUTY activity.

But.... EVEN if you allow LEO discretion to allow him to continue down the road, enter the property, and bump the dock..... and EVEN allowing him to present his paperwork... ... At SOME point you HAVE to agree that he is OOS and cannot perform ANY work on lines 3 or 4 for a MINIMUM of 10 hours!

Now.... HOW many receivers do YOU know that will allow him to spend his OOS time.... 10 full hours.... taking up one of their docks?

But, MY response ALSO still "stands" until YOU can refute it. No driver put OOS can perform ANY work on line 3 OR LINE 4 UNTIL he has completed the 10 hour OOS requirement!

I don't know about YOU.... but, I've BEEN in this situation and the LEO offered to let me go to the next overpass and return to the truckstop behind me. He sat and watched me do it! Then followed me into the truckstop and put me OOS!

THEY take this very seriously! NO WAY an LEO is going to (or SHOULD) allow someone to more or less "finish his run, and bump the dock!" NO way.... NO HOW!

NOW.... YOU get on board with this.... agree that I am right.... and I'll remove that stupid statement of yours from my sigline. If not.... I think I'll enlarge the type size, change the color, and put SPARKLES around it!

And YOU will acquiesce to it the same way you did Belpre's attacks on ME! AND.... the increased attention will be "ON YOU!"

OOS means OUT OF SERVICE! Means you can't do ANY WORK! IF you don't understand that.... you shouldn't be driving a TRUCK!

......... Wow! That was better than SEX! Makes me want to smoke a cigarette! BUT.... I QUIT smoking about a month ago! This time it's for REAL!! I ain't PAYING those stinking taxes NO MORE!

[Rev.Vassago]

I WELCOME this discussion. But first.... let's begin with a disucssion or an agreement on what constitutes ON DUTY TIME.

Let's not.

Or more specifically.... what is meant by "operating a CMV."

That's something entirely different, and it's something you clearly don't understand.

In the "Alcohol and CMV" thread.... I contend that a PARKED truck with all brakes "popped" is NOT IN OPERATION. I guess I should have specified (and I believe I did) that I meant one that is parked in a truckstop and the driver is considered "off duty" for a 10 hour break.... NOT waiting on a dispatch, etc.

Irrelevant to the discussion.

I believe that a truck parked AT A DOCK, where the driver is "in readiness to move the vehicle" UNLESS he's been given notice of a timeframe that allows him to enter the SLEEPER BERTH for a designated amount of time, is ON DUTY/NOT DRIVING.

Absolutely. If he's not in the sleeper, he's on duty(not driving)

He is responsible for exchanging paperwork with the shipper/receiver, and possibly "monitoring" the loading/unloading of the freight. ALL OF THESE duties are considered line 4 activities. And ALL LINE 4 time is ON DUTY time.

Yup. On duty (not driving).

Now... according to the REG YOU cited....

(d) Responsibilities of the driver. (1) No driver who has been declared out of service shall operate a commercial motor vehicle until that driver may lawfully do so under the rules of this Part.

(d)(2) No driver who has been declared out of service, for failing to prepare a record of duty status, shall operate a commercial motor vehicle until the driver has been off duty for the appropriate number of consecutive hours required by this part and is in compliance with this section.

That CLEARLY means that a driver put OOS MUST log the required 10 hours (or more) in an OFF DUTY status before "operating a CMV."

Yup. Absolutely.

As I believe I said in that thread, the LEO probably broke the law by allowing him to continue to the receiver. That is a discretionary decision NOT addressed by the FMCSR's. However..... ONCE he entered the receiver's property.... bumping the dock WAS clealy an ON DUTY activity.

Again, irrelevant to the discussion we're having here.

But.... EVEN if you allow LEO discretion to allow him to continue down the road, enter the property, and bump the dock..... and EVEN allowing him to present his paperwork... ... At SOME point you HAVE to agree that he is OOS and cannot perform ANY work on lines 3 or 4 for a MINIMUM of 10 hours!

Nope. The FMCSA does not regulate how long one can be on line 4, and they never have. They only regulate when and for how long someone can be on line 3.

Now.... HOW many receivers do YOU know that will allow him to spend his OOS time.... 10 full hours.... taking up one of their docks?

Irrelevant to the discussion we're having here.

But, MY response ALSO still "stands" until YOU can refute it. No driver put OOS can perform ANY work on line 3 OR LINE 4 UNTIL he has completed the 10 hour OOS requirement!

The regulation itself refutes it. It states that he cannot operate the CMV (that's line 3 time) until the OOS order has been rescinded.

I don't know about YOU.... but, I've BEEN in this situation and the LEO offered to let me go to the next overpass and return to the truckstop behind me. He sat and watched me do it! Then followed me into the truckstop and put me OOS!

Again, irrelevant to the discussion.

THEY take this very seriously! NO WAY an LEO is going to (or SHOULD) allow someone to more or less "finish his run, and bump the dock!" NO way.... NO HOW!

Still irrelevant.

NOW.... YOU get on board with this.... agree that I am right.... and I'll remove that stupid statement of yours from my sigline. If not.... I think I'll enlarge the type size, change the color, and put SPARKLES around it!

And YOU will acquiesce to it the same way you did Belpre's attacks on ME! AND.... the increased attention will be "ON YOU!"

Whatever. You've proven nothing, other than you think line 3 and line 4 are identical.

OOS means OUT OF SERVICE! Means you can't do ANY WORK! IF you don't understand that.... you shouldn't be driving a TRUCK!

Nope, you're wrong. Out of service means you can't operate the CMV. The reg is riddled with references to this. Furthermore, in the interpretation for the reg, it states the same thing. Twice. OOS orders only apply to the operation of a CMV. When I'm on a dock, I'm not "operating" a CMV. When I'm dealing with paperwork, I'm not "operating" a CMV. When I'm taking a drug test, I'm not "operating" a CMV. But all three of those things are On Duty (not driving) activities, and all three could LEGALLY be done during an OOS order.

Just to drive this issue even further, I'm going to give you a hypothetical. Let's say you were involved in an accident with another vehicle which required your vehicle to be towed. You were over your hours when it happened, and the cop who arrived at the scene immediately looked at your log book, and placed you OOS as a result. Now you're out of service on the side of the road. While you are giving police reports, you are on duty (not driving). While you are dealing with the tow truck driver, you are on duty (not driving). While you are riding in the passenger seat of the tow truck, you are on duty (not driving). While you are off taking that REQUIRED alcohol test as a result of the accident (which you are LEGALLY required to do so within 8 hours of the accident per 382.303) you are on duty(not driving).

So by your contention, you could do NONE of these things because you've been placed OOS, and I guess you're just going to have to take that automatic positive as a result of a refusal to be tested. That is by far the DUMBEST argument I've ever heard.

[golfhobo]

You're the one who is keeping it alive.

Sabine: I see what you wrote, and thanks for agreeing with me!

REALLY???? "I" am the one who started this thread?

I had ALMOST forgot about that sigline. I have to admit, I sometimes feel a pang of guilt when I post something and see that I am STILL "blowing your azz up" with it.... but, I get over it.

But, there is NO DOUBT that YOU are the one "keeping it alive" with this NEW thread. Let's START with you taking "ownership" of THAT!

Apparently, it bothers you. Perhaps because you KNOW that you are wrong. I felt the same way about certain siglines other posters used in the past. I had to deal with them directly and honestly. You COULD do the same.

I SUPPOSE you could PM me about it. You know.... OVERRIDE the IBADMIN restrictions.

Or you could just post an "open comment" on my profile site. OR you could just bring it up on the open forum.... as you DID.

The "media" is not what interests me. It is the fact that you have "entreatied" me that piques my interest. And the "timing."

I am a reasonable person, Rev. My belief that "YOU" also are one has probably cost me a good friend.

Asking me to "prove it or shut up" is not a good route for you to take. I believe I once lowered myself to the point of just "ASKING" a poster who I considered a friend to remove an offensive sigline worked for me. It was "cathartic" for me, and it worked. I'm not suggesting that YOU could withstand such a "reality check."

However, since I believe I have ONCE AGAIN proven my point as to the meat of the discussion, and at SOME point in time, you MAY admit it....

And to prove that I have no malicious intent to continuously hurt a fellow CAD poster, let alone one of YOUR obvious "standing," I will make the requested "adjustment" just as soon as I can remember HOW to do so!

A mere "thank you" hidden somewhere in some future post, will be enough. In fact.... You COULD have just "asked."

[SickRick]

Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water...

The way I read the regs - and OOS driver CANNOT OPERATE a CMV. OPERATE MEANS DRIVE.

If he happens to do line 4 work - his OOS "sentence" (for 11 hour for example) us NOT SERVED, until he is on line(s) 1 or 2 for TEN CONSECUTIVE HOURS.

I think Rev. is still "razzing you" for the (perceived or not) misconception that Line 4 is OPERATING and violates on OOS. ALL the guidance I've seen for 49 CFR 395, leads me (and apparently Rev.) to believe that OPERATING MEANS DRIVING, behind the wheel, in motion. Previous arguments that y'all have had (like, reporting an accident while struck by another truck in a truckstop during a 10 or 34 reset being line 4), would tend to REINFORCE THIS POSITION.

From 395.2 - Definitions

Driving time means all time spent at the driving controls of a commercial motor vehicle in operation.

On duty time means all time from the time a driver begins to work or is required to be in readiness to work until the time the driver is relieved from work and all responsibility for performing work. On-duty time shall include:

(1) All time at a plant, terminal, facility, or other property of a motor carrier or shipper, or on any public property, waiting to be dispatched, unless the driver has been relieved from duty by the motor carrier;

(2) All time inspecting, servicing, or conditioning any commercial motor vehicle at any time;

(3) All driving time as defined in the term driving time;

(4) All time, other than driving time, in or upon any commercial motor vehicle except time spent resting in a sleeper berth;

(5) All time loading or unloading a commercial motor vehicle, supervising, or assisting in the loading or unloading, attending a commercial motor vehicle being loaded or unloaded, remaining in readiness to operate the commercial motor vehicle, or in giving or receiving receipts for shipments loaded or unloaded;

(6) All time repairing, obtaining assistance, or remaining in attendance upon a disabled commercial motor vehicle;

(7) All time spent providing a breath sample or urine specimen, including travel time to and from the collection site, in order to comply with the random, reasonable suspicion, post-accident, or follow-up testing required by part 382 of this subchapter when directed by a motor carrier;

(8) Performing any other work in the capacity, employ, or service of, a motor carrier; and

(9) Performing any compensated work for a person who is not a motor carrier.


Definition 4, would tend to reinforce YOUR (GolfHobo's) position that ANY TIME IN THE TRUCK other than SLEEPER BERTH - IS - in fact ON DUTY TIME (so if yer watching TV or cruising the interweb in a truck stop, you'd better be IN BED wile doing it). But, despite the (obvious) vagueness of some parts of 49 CFR - OOS PROHIBITS YOUR FROM OPERATING (DRIVING) a CMV and DOES NOT PROHIBIT ANY OTHER ON DUTY TIME. Just that you don't get out of "OOS Jail" until you meet the OFF DUTY REQUIREMENTS to correct WHY you were placed OOS in the first place. If you're OVER 70, then you don't get HOURS BACK until MIDNIGHT - and if you were placed OOS after only being on duty a 1/2 hour in the current day - you would (concievably) get back 14 that would otherwise have been USED THAT DAY at midnight - in addition to whatever you would have gained back ANYWAY by losing the 8th day previous. If you were OOS for an 11/14 violation - the ONLY WAY to "get out of jail", is with 10 hours OFF DUTY (line 2 for 8 + line 1 for 2 OR line 1 for 10). In the case of the original thread - if the driver was not IN THE SLEEPER BERTH or OFF THE PROPERTY, he would still be considered to be ON DUTY - and though not in violation of his OOS - may not accumulate the OFF DUTY HOURS to get OUT OF JAIL

The ONLY ISSUE OF CONTENTION HERE IS: what constitutes "OPERATING". LINE 2 - On Duty - Driving...

Rick

[Rev.Vassago]

REALLY???? "I" am the one who started this thread?

I had ALMOST forgot about that sigline. I have to admit, I sometimes feel a pang of guilt when I post something and see that I am STILL "blowing your azz up" with it.... but, I get over it.

But, there is NO DOUBT that YOU are the one "keeping it alive" with this NEW thread. Let's START with you taking "ownership" of THAT!

Apparently, it bothers you. Perhaps because you KNOW that you are wrong. I felt the same way about certain siglines other posters used in the past. I had to deal with them directly and honestly. You COULD do the same.

I believe I did just that by challenging you to prove it. Not because it bothered me, but because I thought it might be fun to discuss, and I happened to notice it today when you were posting.

I SUPPOSE you could PM me about it. You know.... OVERRIDE the IBADMIN restrictions.

Or you could just post an "open comment" on my profile site. OR you could just bring it up on the open forum.... as you DID.

Sure did!

The "media" is not what interests me. It is the fact that you have "entreatied" me that piques my interest. And the "timing."

I am a reasonable person, Rev. My belief that "YOU" also are one has probably cost me a good friend.

Excuse me? And how exactly did I do this?

Asking me to "prove it or shut up" is not a good route for you to take. I believe I once lowered myself to the point of just "ASKING" a poster who I considered a friend to remove an offensive sigline worked for me. It was "cathartic" for me, and it worked. I'm not suggesting that YOU could withstand such a "reality check."

However, since I believe I have ONCE AGAIN proven my point as to the meat of the discussion, and at SOME point in time, you MAY admit it....

And to prove that I have no malicious intent to continuously hurt a fellow CAD poster, let alone one of YOUR obvious "standing," I will make the requested "adjustment" just as soon as I can remember HOW to do so!

A mere "thank you" hidden somewhere in some future post, will be enough. In fact.... You COULD have just "asked."

Talk about reading more into something than there really was. I thought it might be fun to have a classic Rev/Golfhobo argument over the FMCSA regulations. But apparently that's too much to ask. Whatever personal issues you are having that affect your friendships is nobody's blame but your own. Trying to pin other peoples' opinions of you on me is a cop out. I cost you absolutely nothing, because I never discuss you with others privately. I don't really care if you quote every single one of my posts in your sig line (although I'm sure others might get worried about obsession if you did).

Playing the victim is unbecoming of you, especially in something as trivial as a silly thread about a regulation. If I didn't want the sig line there, I could have deleted it myself without ever asking you. But I wouldn't do that, just as I wouldn't ask you to delete it for me. In fact, I remember LightsChromeHorsepower using a quote by me in his sig line for a long time. I never complained about it, and I even found it to be humorous. If you didn't want to play, you could have ignored the thread. I wouldn't have cared one way or the other. I was bored, and thought it might be a fun topic to discuss. Sorry for trying to engage you in conversation. I'll be sure to avoid it in the future.

[wanderingson]

I thought it might be fun to have a classic Rev/Golfhobo argument over the FMCSA regulations.

This IS classic Rev/Hobo argument material!

Doesn't line 4 activity count against your 70 hrs though? I think it does. Once the 70 is reached, a driver cannot log on line 3 or 4 until after the 34 hr reset.
I know a few drivers who have side jobs, and they are required to log that as on duty/not driving, even though it may be a non-driving job.

Yes, I think the Rev is right though about being on line 4 for as long as you want, but after the 70 hrs is up, thats it. Of course, a driver cannot continue to drive or be on duty/not driving after the 11/14 hr reg is reached.

As far as a driver being OOS, I think that a driver cannot perform ANY function of line 3 or 4 until the OOS order is satisfied.

Ok guys, continue the argument! I love it!

[ssoutlaw]

This IS classic Rev/Hobo argument material!

Doesn't line 4 activity count against your 70 hrs though? I think it does. Once the 70 is reached, a driver cannot log on line 3 or 4 until after the 34 hr reset.
I know a few drivers who have side jobs, and they are required to log that as on duty/not driving, even though it may be a non-driving job.

Yes, I think the Rev is right though about being on line 4 for as long as you want, but after the 70 hrs is up, thats it. Of course, a driver cannot continue to drive or be on duty/not driving after the 11/14 hr reg is reached.

As far as a driver being OOS, I think that a driver cannot perform ANY function of line 3 or 4 until the OOS order is satisfied.

Ok guys, continue the argument! I love it!

Nope! Rev is right! Did I say that....lol and yes line 4 does count against your 70!
Yes the driver put OOS can still be on line 4 for as long as he wants, and even repair his truck if he so wishes, but must watch his hrs and adjust his rest or off duty to comply with the law!!!!!!
You can be on line 4 for 90 hrs if you want, but you better not drive until you have satisfied a 34 hr reset!

[Rev.Vassago]

Doesn't line 4 activity count against your 70 hrs though? I think it does. Once the 70 is reached, a driver cannot log on line 3 or 4 until after the 34 hr reset.
I know a few drivers who have side jobs, and they are required to log that as on duty/not driving, even though it may be a non-driving job.

Yes, I think the Rev is right though about being on line 4 for as long as you want, but after the 70 hrs is up, thats it.

Incorrect. The 11 hour, 14 hour and 70 hour clock is only to determine if (and for how long) you can drive. The FMCSA has no regulations regarding how long you can be on line 4. They only have regulations on when (and for how long) you can be on line 3. The only regulations the FMCSA has regarding line 4 are what activities count as line 4 time.

And 34 hour resets are never mandatory.

[ssoutlaw]

Incorrect. The 11 hour, 14 hour and 70 hour clock is only to determine if (and for how long) you can drive. The FMCSA has no regulations regarding how long you can be on line 4. They only have regulations on when (and for how long) you can be on line 3. The only regulations the FMCSA has regarding line 4 are what activities count as line 4 time.

And 34 hour resets are never mandatory.

Ya, but if you were on line 4 for 90 hrs, a reset would be needed....lol

[Rev.Vassago]

Ya, but if you were on line 4 for 90 hrs, a reset would be needed....lol

Yes, there is a point when a 34 hour reset is the shortest way to gain back hours. I can however, think of a scenario where you could gain enough hours to drive if you had 90 hours on the clock without doing a 34 hour reset. But it depends how the hours are spread out.

[SickRick]

Yes, there is a point when a 34 hour reset is the shortest way to gain back hours. I can however, think of a scenario where you could gain enough hours to drive if you had 90 hours on the clock without doing a 34 hour reset. But it depends how the hours are spread out.

Think he was talking about 90 hours on line 4 - IN A ROW.

But we STILL haven't cleared up the MAIN POINT IN CONTENTION HERE - that being, just what constitutes OPERATING A CMV - which we all KNOW to mean - DRIVING. The regs don't say anything about doing any other work NOT on line 3. But again, you would come OFF an OOS, until you've logged 10 off (or gained back hours in the case of a 70). In the case of a 70, you could be off OOS at midnight - depending on how many hours you've gained. You COULD be put OOS for a 70 at 11:30PM, and be out the door in a 1/2 hour.

We could muddy the waters a bit, say, by looking at a situation where the Tractor is the O/O's personal conveyance.

He is put out of service for an 11/14 hour violation, that can ONLY BE RESOLVED by 10 hours OFF DUTY (line 2 for 8 + line 1 for 2 OR line 2 for 10). If he LEAVES HIS TRAILER at the coop, and drives off to Chuck-E-Cheese for a pizza in his tractor - he is no longer "under load" he is OFF DUTY and using the Tractor as a POV, he CAN LOG on Line 1 - go putz around for 10 hours, go back and get his trailer and have SATISFIED his OOS. In this case, the tractor would NOT BE OPERATED as a CMV, he is not UNDER LOAD or DISPATCH and has no responsibility to his employer (or himself is he is under his own authority). He could lay in his sleeper in the Walmart parking lot drinking BEER for 6 hours, nap for 4 and be good to go. Or pull off the coop without his box and go get a motel room. Wouldn't THAT P.O. the DOT guy? Pull around the coop, drop your box, and take off for 10 hours...

Rick

[Rev.Vassago]

He is put out of service for an 11/14 hour violation, that can ONLY BE RESOLVED by 10 hours OFF DUTY (line 2 for 8 + line 1 for 2 OR line 2 for 10). If he LEAVES HIS TRAILER at the coop, and drives off to Chuck-E-Cheese for a pizza in his tractor - he is no longer "under load" he is OFF DUTY and using the Tractor as a POV, he CAN LOG on Line 1 - go putz around for 10 hours, go back and get his trailer and have SATISFIED his OOS. In this case, the tractor would NOT BE OPERATED as a CMV, he is not UNDER LOAD or DISPATCH and has no responsibility to his employer (or himself is he is under his own authority). He could lay in his sleeper in the Walmart parking lot drinking BEER for 6 hours, nap for 4 and be good to go. Or pull off the coop without his box and go get a motel room. Wouldn't THAT P.O. the DOT guy? Pull around the coop, drop your box, and take off for 10 hours...

That would be a violation of the OOS order. The regs specifically address this:

Question 2: May a driver operating a CMV under a lease arrangement with a motor carrier, after being placed out of service for an hours of service violation, cancel the lease and continue to operate the vehicle as a private personal conveyance?

Guidance: No. Cancellation of a lease does not relieve the driver of the responsibility of complying with the out of service order which prohibits the driver from operating a CMV.

The CMV doesn't cease to be a CMV just because it is being used as personal conveyance.

[SickRick]

That would be a violation of the OOS order. The regs specifically address this:

Question 2: May a driver operating a CMV under a lease arrangement with a motor carrier, after being placed out of service for an hours of service violation, cancel the lease and continue to operate the vehicle as a private personal conveyance?

Guidance: No. Cancellation of a lease does not relieve the driver of the responsibility of complying with the out of service order which prohibits the driver from operating a CMV.

The CMV doesn't cease to be a CMV just because it is being used as personal conveyance.

Interesting, since you CAN operate a CMV as a personal conveyance and be on Line 1.

That specific instance (canceling a lease-on agreement) is weird unto itself. According to that guidance - would he be able to cancel the lease, fulfill whatever requirements the OOS calls for (and again, the guidance didn't say whether it was a 11/14 or 70 hour violation), and THEN use the vehicle as a personal conveyance. These regs are still arbitrary and vague - as a lease/op upon canceling the lease would be under an obligation to the carrier to return the vehicle. And OWNER, that was leased-on, would only be obligated to return the Qualcomm and any other "company issued equipment". After the OOS is satisfied, the truck still BELONGS TO the O/O, and as long as he has the proper Non-Trucking-Liability and whatever other insurance is required to operate Bobtail, he can use the tractor as a personal conveyance to his hearts content - all on line 1.

Rick

[Rev.Vassago]

That specific instance (canceling a lease-on agreement) is weird unto itself. According to that guidance - would he be able to cancel the lease, fulfill whatever requirements the OOS calls for (and again, the guidance didn't say whether it was a 11/14 or 70 hour violation), and THEN use the vehicle as a personal conveyance.

Yes, although what purpose would cancelling the lease at the scale house be then?

These regs are still arbitrary and vague - as a lease/op upon canceling the lease would be under an obligation to the carrier to return the vehicle. And OWNER, that was leased-on, would only be obligated to return the Qualcomm and any other "company issued equipment". After the OOS is satisfied, the truck still BELONGS TO the O/O, and as long as he has the proper Non-Trucking-Liability and whatever other insurance is required to operate Bobtail, he can use the tractor as a personal conveyance to his hearts content - all on line 1.

Rick

The point wasn't about canceling the lease. The point was about putting the driver in a situation where he could legally log the truck AND trailer on line 1 as personal conveyance by becoming "not for hire." But the FMCSA made it clear that the CMV is still a CMV even when being used as personal conveyance (which is why you need a CDL to operate it no matter what), so dropping the trailer and taking off with the truck would be a violation of the OOS order, as the OOS order applies to operating a CMV.

[mike3fan]

Well, obviously I'm not gonna change anyone's (Golfhobo) opinion here with my argument, but I think it's pretty obvious that the rule and it's penalty (OOS) is put into place to protect the motoring public by not allowing a unsafe driver (in their view) back in operation (driving) of a CMV until his off duty requirements are met. No where imo does that have anything to do with non driving work related duties. So to me the driver could spend as much time as needed at the customer doing anything he wants, including unloading the trailer by hand if he so chooses for 12 hrs. before satisfing his sleeper berth/off duty time.


Although, what are the regs for operating a CMV on private property? Could the driver pull out of the dock without violating any rules? Could a non CDL driver move the truck out of the dock for him?