K...what am I missing?
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#141
05-05-2021Quote:
You didn't read what I wrote. Your theory is to dead head out to a better freight lane. I'm saying why not take the $1.10 and at least have expenses paid. Am I missing something? You paid out of your pocket to dead head out, I got paid to dead head out.
So, answer me this. Your sitting in a bad place. 500 miles away is a good area. Your offered $1.10 to go there. Exactly, how many days or weeks do you sit there? Do you finally give up after x amount of days and what do you do? Dead head out of your own pocket or take the $1.10 so your not in the hole?
Steve, there are some people who feel the way you do and will take anything they can to pay for their fuel in order to get out of a bad area. I have a minimum haul rate and won't deviate from it. And $1.10 is well below my minimum. The problem with hauling for rates that cheap is that there is no reason for anyone to pay more if they can continue to get people to haul them who need fuel money. Rates will continue to be low in those areas until people stop taking them. Originally Posted by SteveBooth
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMAN
That is fine if all you want to do is buy fuel, a shower and food. Personally, I prefer to make a profit. Everyone must decide what they want or need to do in their business. As long as brokers and/or shippers can move freight for $1.15/mile there is no reason to pay more. That is the main reason some areas have cheap freight. There is someone who is willing to haul it to pay for their fuel money. You see, I ALWAYS have fuel money. What you don't see when you haul these cheap loads is that you are spending more money on fuel plus wear and tear on your truck to haul a load for FREE. You are also wasting your time to haul a load for FREE. If you aren't making a profit on a load, you are hauling it for FREE. Charities do things for FREE. Businesses make a profit. This is a business. If you have a cheap load on the truck what happens if you get a call from a broker or shipper who has a decent paying load? You can't haul it because you have a cheap load on the truck. I won't haul a load for $1.15/mile, period. So, am I stupid? Perhaps, but I am still in business. And when I move my truck, I make a profit. 8)
You didn't read what I wrote. Your theory is to dead head out to a better freight lane. I'm saying why not take the $1.10 and at least have expenses paid. Am I missing something? You paid out of your pocket to dead head out, I got paid to dead head out.
So, answer me this. Your sitting in a bad place. 500 miles away is a good area. Your offered $1.10 to go there. Exactly, how many days or weeks do you sit there? Do you finally give up after x amount of days and what do you do? Dead head out of your own pocket or take the $1.10 so your not in the hole?
There is nothing wrong with sitting a day or two if you are putting a good load together. I won't sit for days on end unless I am working something which will pay me for my time. Some people think that unless they are moving they are not making money. Just because you move doesn't necessarily mean that you are making money. You may just be moving dollars around. I used to run Denver from time to time. I had a regular shipper for whom I hauled and he had shipments around Denver that I would take on occasion. I found a long time ago, that unless you can find something quickly, it is better to deadhead out of Colorado. I nearly always deadheaded about 500 miles over to Kansas to pick up a load which was profitable. There are drivers and owner operators who will sit for several days in Denver, just to get a load. There are others who will take a load even if it only pays $0.90/mile.
To cite another reason I refuse to haul cheap freight, there have been a few occasions where I have gotten a call on my way out of town with a good paying load. If I had the cheap load, I would have missed the good paying load. I am not going to tell you what to do in your business. I will tell you what I would do. Perhaps it is more a matter of principle for me. In looking at my personal numbers, I seem to do all right the way I do business. To give you a recent example, I just deadheaded out of a bad area to one where a good paying load was offered. Even with the deadhead, I still averaged $2.08/mile for that run. If I took one of the cheap loads I was offered, my average rate would have been much less. In other words, even if I had taken a cheap load to avoid any deadhead, I would still have made less, even though I had a higher percentage of deadhead. This is not an isolated incident for me.
#142
I'm not the sure of the wisdom of what I'm about to do, but....
Quote:
There is nothing wrong with sitting a day or two if you are putting a good load together. This is different from the above argument, this is an argument based on your own best economic interest. This argument is standard and reasonable in the context of a market based economy I won't sit for days on end unless I am working something which will pay me for my time. Some people think that unless they are moving they are not making money. Just because you move doesn't necessarily mean that you are making money. You may just be moving dollars around. I used to run Denver from time to time. I had a regular shipper for whom I hauled and he had shipments around Denver that I would take on occasion. I found a long time ago, that unless you can find something quickly, it is better to deadhead out of Colorado. I nearly always deadheaded about 500 miles over to Kansas to pick up a load which was profitable. There are drivers and owner operators who will sit for several days in Denver, just to get a load. There are others who will take a load even if it only pays $0.90/mile.
To cite another reason I refuse to haul cheap freight, there have been a few occasions where I have gotten a call on my way out of town with a good paying load. If I had the cheap load, I would have missed the good paying load. Standard and reasonable in the context of a market economy I am not going to tell you what to do in your business. I will tell you what I would do. Perhaps it is more a matter of principle for me. In looking at my personal numbers, I seem to do all right the way I do business. To give you a recent example, I just deadheaded out of a bad area to one where a good paying load was offered. Even with the deadhead, I still averaged $2.08/mile for that run. If I took one of the cheap loads I was offered, my average rate would have been much less. In other words, even if I had taken a cheap load to avoid any deadhead, I would still have made less, even though I had a higher percentage of deadhead. This is not an isolated incident for me. Again, a standard and reasonable business decision within the context of a market based economy. No one is questioning this. In economics, we talk about 'ceteris parabis' which just means 'all things being equal'. The only point in dispute is when, with 'all other things being equal', the cheap freight is the better business decision without regard to how that one load affects the freight rates for everybody else. One individual can take on the world, one individual can defy basic market principles and turn down a situation that is economically profitable to himself but is a drop in the ocean towards affecting the overall freight rate, it's a choice that you can make. But to say that others ought to stand in defiance of our basic economic system along with you is nothing short of asking them to take on the world along with you. Our economic system has helped us to prosper way far over much of the rest of the world. It's good just to embrace it and to cooperate with it...again, all things being equal.
Originally Posted by GMAN
Steve, there are some people who feel the way you do and will take anything they can to pay for their fuel in order to get out of a bad area. I have a minimum haul rate and won't deviate from it. And $1.10 is well below my minimum. The problem with hauling for rates that cheap is that there is no reason for anyone to pay more if they can continue to get people to haul them who need fuel money. Rates will continue to be low in those areas until people stop taking them. This flys in the face of the basic structure of a market economy, the very thing to which we attribute most of the prosperity of our nation and the West. True, there is no reason to raise rates when people will do it on the cheap. But the market economy model doesn't accomodate the price changing significantly because of people making decisions based on the common good ie., 'let's all refuse to take that cheap freight until the price rises'. The only way to effect a collective effort on the market price is through something like a labor union or a cartel (which is illegal). There is nothing wrong with sitting a day or two if you are putting a good load together. This is different from the above argument, this is an argument based on your own best economic interest. This argument is standard and reasonable in the context of a market based economy I won't sit for days on end unless I am working something which will pay me for my time. Some people think that unless they are moving they are not making money. Just because you move doesn't necessarily mean that you are making money. You may just be moving dollars around. I used to run Denver from time to time. I had a regular shipper for whom I hauled and he had shipments around Denver that I would take on occasion. I found a long time ago, that unless you can find something quickly, it is better to deadhead out of Colorado. I nearly always deadheaded about 500 miles over to Kansas to pick up a load which was profitable. There are drivers and owner operators who will sit for several days in Denver, just to get a load. There are others who will take a load even if it only pays $0.90/mile.
To cite another reason I refuse to haul cheap freight, there have been a few occasions where I have gotten a call on my way out of town with a good paying load. If I had the cheap load, I would have missed the good paying load. Standard and reasonable in the context of a market economy I am not going to tell you what to do in your business. I will tell you what I would do. Perhaps it is more a matter of principle for me. In looking at my personal numbers, I seem to do all right the way I do business. To give you a recent example, I just deadheaded out of a bad area to one where a good paying load was offered. Even with the deadhead, I still averaged $2.08/mile for that run. If I took one of the cheap loads I was offered, my average rate would have been much less. In other words, even if I had taken a cheap load to avoid any deadhead, I would still have made less, even though I had a higher percentage of deadhead. This is not an isolated incident for me. Again, a standard and reasonable business decision within the context of a market based economy. No one is questioning this. In economics, we talk about 'ceteris parabis' which just means 'all things being equal'. The only point in dispute is when, with 'all other things being equal', the cheap freight is the better business decision without regard to how that one load affects the freight rates for everybody else. One individual can take on the world, one individual can defy basic market principles and turn down a situation that is economically profitable to himself but is a drop in the ocean towards affecting the overall freight rate, it's a choice that you can make. But to say that others ought to stand in defiance of our basic economic system along with you is nothing short of asking them to take on the world along with you. Our economic system has helped us to prosper way far over much of the rest of the world. It's good just to embrace it and to cooperate with it...again, all things being equal.
Well, I guess my principles are a lot different. My questions are being ignored and have not been answered. Not sure why, they are simple ones?
There is no way any of you are going to change the world on rates unless you band together into a union. CAD represents probably a fraction of 1% of the drivers out there.
If I'm stuck again for more than a day and offered $1.10 or $1.25 to get out then I'm gone. You'll still be sitting there waiting for that high dollar load that may NEVER come. That's why I asked 3 times, how long do you wait?
I took the cheap money which paid for my expenses. I now have the high paying load and waving to you as I pass the empty truck stop. At the end of the month I have more money than you.
My mother did crap during the depression and got paid nothing but she didn't sit home waiting for Microsoft to call and offer her a better paying job. I guess that rubbed off on me from both my parents.
There is no way any of you are going to change the world on rates unless you band together into a union. CAD represents probably a fraction of 1% of the drivers out there.
If I'm stuck again for more than a day and offered $1.10 or $1.25 to get out then I'm gone. You'll still be sitting there waiting for that high dollar load that may NEVER come. That's why I asked 3 times, how long do you wait?
I took the cheap money which paid for my expenses. I now have the high paying load and waving to you as I pass the empty truck stop. At the end of the month I have more money than you.
My mother did crap during the depression and got paid nothing but she didn't sit home waiting for Microsoft to call and offer her a better paying job. I guess that rubbed off on me from both my parents.
#144
no_worries , 05-21-2007 08:17 PM
You're forgetting the fact that the idea of all things being equal also encompasses the notion of fair competition. Somebody trying to run a business, which includes making a reasonable profit, cannot operate on the same rate structure as someone who's only concern is making a minimum amount of money after the basic expenses. The market system in the U.S. breaks down when you have cheap labor from abroad enter the workforce because you're introducing an element of unfairness. It's the same with a deep-pocketed corporation that intentionally sells a product at a loss to drive out competition.
#145
uuuuw thats what I am doing! Driving out my competition!
Hmmmm I thought it was I just was too stupid to ask....hey are those 4 pallets?...or 4 tractors you gonna stick n there...n I got pissed when they hammered blocks in my van, but what the hell was I gonna do at that point? Already had signed the areement by then tho
N you know whats even worse....damn this load feels way heavier then 20,000 pounds (Dont care bill says otherwise, they lied! Does that justify keepin one of the tractors?) ....i got tripply screwed :P
Hmmmm I thought it was I just was too stupid to ask....hey are those 4 pallets?...or 4 tractors you gonna stick n there...n I got pissed when they hammered blocks in my van, but what the hell was I gonna do at that point? Already had signed the areement by then tho
N you know whats even worse....damn this load feels way heavier then 20,000 pounds (Dont care bill says otherwise, they lied! Does that justify keepin one of the tractors?) ....i got tripply screwed :P
No Pepe, you didn't get screwed, you learned something.
I'm hauling 25' long steel rods right now. The load is pretty small and stands only 8" high but it's 47,000 pounds. I was scaled. But, it hauls like it's 20,000 pounds. Go figure. I've hauled loads that were 20,000 pounds and tall and felt like it weighed 100,000.
The one thing I don't like about this load is that the steel rods act as reinforcement to my trailer so it doesn't have the flex when hitting dips in the road.
I'm hauling 25' long steel rods right now. The load is pretty small and stands only 8" high but it's 47,000 pounds. I was scaled. But, it hauls like it's 20,000 pounds. Go figure. I've hauled loads that were 20,000 pounds and tall and felt like it weighed 100,000.
The one thing I don't like about this load is that the steel rods act as reinforcement to my trailer so it doesn't have the flex when hitting dips in the road.
#147
Quote:
Hel-lo :P So, you speak, the language? :lol: Before wrongly asserting that I've forgotten something or going off into predatory pricing, how about just acknowledging my underlying thesis, that we truckers are properly subject to market forces just like the butcher, the baker and the candlestick maker, this latter if they haven't already been driven out of business. 8)Originally Posted by no_worries
You're forgetting the fact that the idea of all things being equal also encompasses the notion of fair competition. Somebody trying to run a business, which includes making a reasonable profit, cannot operate on the same rate structure as someone who's only concern is making a minimum amount of money after the basic expenses. The market system in the U.S. breaks down when you have cheap labor from abroad enter the workforce because you're introducing an element of unfairness. It's the same with a deep-pocketed corporation that intentionally sells a product at a loss to drive out competition.
#148
Quote:
There is no way any of you are going to change the world on rates unless you band together into a union. CAD represents probably a fraction of 1% of the drivers out there.
If I'm stuck again for more than a day and offered $1.10 or $1.25 to get out then I'm gone. You'll still be sitting there waiting for that high dollar load that may NEVER come. That's why I asked 3 times, how long do you wait?
I took the cheap money which paid for my expenses. I now have the high paying load and waving to you as I pass the empty truck stop. At the end of the month I have more money than you.
My mother did crap during the depression and got paid nothing but she didn't sit home waiting for Microsoft to call and offer her a better paying job. I guess that rubbed off on me from both my parents.
Originally Posted by SteveBooth
Well, I guess my principles are a lot different. My questions are being ignored and have not been answered. Not sure why, they are simple ones?There is no way any of you are going to change the world on rates unless you band together into a union. CAD represents probably a fraction of 1% of the drivers out there.
If I'm stuck again for more than a day and offered $1.10 or $1.25 to get out then I'm gone. You'll still be sitting there waiting for that high dollar load that may NEVER come. That's why I asked 3 times, how long do you wait?
I took the cheap money which paid for my expenses. I now have the high paying load and waving to you as I pass the empty truck stop. At the end of the month I have more money than you.
My mother did crap during the depression and got paid nothing but she didn't sit home waiting for Microsoft to call and offer her a better paying job. I guess that rubbed off on me from both my parents.
Steve, I don't really have a hard rule as to how long I will wait. It depends on what is going on in the area and how far I would need to deadhead. I did say that I will usually not wait more than a day unless I am putting a load together. I have sat about 2 days when I am in a bad freight area if I think I can get something out that pays decent. Otherwise, I will usually deadhead out to a better area. I sometimes put LTL's together if I am in a cheap freight area. In that case, I may take a partial for $1/mile or so. But I still have 30' of deck left to put other things on the truck. It can take a few days to put a decent load together this way, but it is worth it to build a good load. To me, it is better to spend the time putting a good paying load together rather than hauling something cheap just to keep moving.
I suppose I look at profitability differently. I consider a load being profitable if I can pay my expenses INCLUDING the cost of a driver and have a little profit left over. If fuel costs $0.60/mile, driver $0/40, then you are already at $1/mile without even considering any other costs. I consider that my time has value. Just because I happen to own the truck doesn't mean that I want to work for FREE.
I don't expect to change the world because I refuse to haul cheap freight. Until more people feel the same as me and follow through with action, rates will continue to be low in certain areas. Unfortunately, there are way too many who feel the same way as you do about hauling for fuel money or expenses. If you pass on one of these cheap loads it won't change the world, either. However, if enough were willing to make that decision, then rates would go up. One reason so many owner operators go out of business is because they either can't or won't turn down loads which are unprofitable.
My family also worked hard through the depression. We all learned a good work ethic. We all were expected to work in the family businesses, usually for FREE. We did it because of the better good of the family. Trucking used to be more like a family. Today, it seems most are only out for themselves.
I have managed to survive more than 30 years working the way I do. I don't believe you have been in this for a year, yet. I must be doing something right. By the way, cash flow is not necessarily profit. If you only have cash flow and no profit you are only prolonging the inevitable bankruptcy.
OK Mike, thanks for the response and I hear you.
I'm just thinking about my father this morning. He was a Army drill seargent but the kindest man to me you would ever meet.
I had a paper route when I was 12 and a job every since. He would always tell me I could quit any job I wanted just as long as I already had another one to start on Monday.
If I was sick I still had to go to work or school. If I was still sick after being there for an hour I could come home.
Things I passed onto my kids too.
I found a better way to pass on my earnings to other people reading this. For the first few months I was averaging $1.60 a mile and the past few months have been $1.80 to $2.10. I think when the year is done $1.80 would be a good rule of thumb.
So, given that, break out your calculators and make your own decisions about doing this based on $1.80 per mile and as far as I can tell, all the miles you want in a week.
I did run hard for a few weeks this Spring and I didn't like it. I went from one load to another. I like the day off in between a long load and the afternoon off when it's 3 days or less and I deliver in the morning.
I'm just thinking about my father this morning. He was a Army drill seargent but the kindest man to me you would ever meet.
I had a paper route when I was 12 and a job every since. He would always tell me I could quit any job I wanted just as long as I already had another one to start on Monday.
If I was sick I still had to go to work or school. If I was still sick after being there for an hour I could come home.
Things I passed onto my kids too.
I found a better way to pass on my earnings to other people reading this. For the first few months I was averaging $1.60 a mile and the past few months have been $1.80 to $2.10. I think when the year is done $1.80 would be a good rule of thumb.
So, given that, break out your calculators and make your own decisions about doing this based on $1.80 per mile and as far as I can tell, all the miles you want in a week.
I did run hard for a few weeks this Spring and I didn't like it. I went from one load to another. I like the day off in between a long load and the afternoon off when it's 3 days or less and I deliver in the morning.
#150
I hear ya too Mike. The funny thing is....I CAN make enough $ on these cheap loads if they are really light generally speaking, and could even hope to LTL partial one and cram something else in if I get really lucky (didnt know if that will ever work....still hopping?) I do and wish to get more, and I didnt try and do it that way because of market forces or anything...just I am cheap SOB and when buying things and setting up, plus my own unique situation, thats the way it turned out. The reason I hope for that is some trailer loads they manged to book at a FULL rate, but they really are LTL partials IMO.....The second I got was like that.....I know I could hav got at least TEN more pallets in there. Its just I was tired and too short a distance, too little time, etc... to really set something else up. I thought this one was possibly going to work that way
As I said tho...on this 1 I really screwed up, as Steve said, it may say 21,000 on the bill, but it pulls like damn 44,000 and its tearing up my equiptment and using way TOO much feul....dang! (can i plz keep a tractor for compensation?)
I know the guy said 4 PALLETS when I first called...dang i think he used some bait n switch trick, knowing i am a very green O/0p
Latter as I remember he was saying 4 PIECES, but my mind had already heard Pallets n I am too new at this too clarify.
He wants 4 check calls a day cuz its high value......I KNOW he didnt clarify that...he gets 1 whether you like it or not.....dont give a shit about the rate agreemnts personally (yeah I know I should), I do my buiz VERBALLY, if you are purposly trying to trick me I dont feel honor bound!
Sure you can try and sue me, but take a #....I got creditors thinking I owe them that can KMA till the sun dont shine cuz they are some hose ya artist rackets in my opinion. For example, back home some tow CO towed my old van away for sitting on a street too long, now they want $, you steal my van and want $, whata joke, KMA, keep the dam van, I aint giving you naughta!
Nother guy trying to sue me...oh well, Prime take a # LOL
Say tho really wondering about this....I see so many brokers on the boards offering 1.10 maxed out weights, they are a dime a dozen! (WELL thats the freight I cant afford to haul.....No hope to ever even partial one and bring the rate up.)
I was seriously considering trying to make it as a broker in 4 years, but I would certainly hope to broker better crap then that! Is that what would await me??? :=p Certainly hope not. Say saw a post from a guy named Apache here, hoping to make it as a broker......ummm did he ....any one know??????Would love to hear hw he is doing?
I would bet no broker thinks; hmmm I am going to get just broker some cheap ass loads hoping to make $ trying to sell a driver to take them? Or do they? I would think they want to get the best loads to move them and feel good about the job they are doing????? Knowing that everyone is making a decent dollar? Or are they just being greedy? ....n can bring their rate up. Like I said, I am a little intimidated to ask the mega-carriers for more $ of the bat, but thats gotta change huh?..(.question is, does it work?) .......
Dang I wish I knew more what was going on with that end of the equation!
As I said tho...on this 1 I really screwed up, as Steve said, it may say 21,000 on the bill, but it pulls like damn 44,000 and its tearing up my equiptment and using way TOO much feul....dang! (can i plz keep a tractor for compensation?)
I know the guy said 4 PALLETS when I first called...dang i think he used some bait n switch trick, knowing i am a very green O/0p
Latter as I remember he was saying 4 PIECES, but my mind had already heard Pallets n I am too new at this too clarify.
He wants 4 check calls a day cuz its high value......I KNOW he didnt clarify that...he gets 1 whether you like it or not.....dont give a shit about the rate agreemnts personally (yeah I know I should), I do my buiz VERBALLY, if you are purposly trying to trick me I dont feel honor bound!
Sure you can try and sue me, but take a #....I got creditors thinking I owe them that can KMA till the sun dont shine cuz they are some hose ya artist rackets in my opinion. For example, back home some tow CO towed my old van away for sitting on a street too long, now they want $, you steal my van and want $, whata joke, KMA, keep the dam van, I aint giving you naughta!
Nother guy trying to sue me...oh well, Prime take a # LOL
Say tho really wondering about this....I see so many brokers on the boards offering 1.10 maxed out weights, they are a dime a dozen! (WELL thats the freight I cant afford to haul.....No hope to ever even partial one and bring the rate up.)
I was seriously considering trying to make it as a broker in 4 years, but I would certainly hope to broker better crap then that! Is that what would await me??? :=p Certainly hope not. Say saw a post from a guy named Apache here, hoping to make it as a broker......ummm did he ....any one know??????Would love to hear hw he is doing?
I would bet no broker thinks; hmmm I am going to get just broker some cheap ass loads hoping to make $ trying to sell a driver to take them? Or do they? I would think they want to get the best loads to move them and feel good about the job they are doing????? Knowing that everyone is making a decent dollar? Or are they just being greedy? ....n can bring their rate up. Like I said, I am a little intimidated to ask the mega-carriers for more $ of the bat, but thats gotta change huh?..(.question is, does it work?) .......
Dang I wish I knew more what was going on with that end of the equation!
