Signature on log book
 

Received a paperwork\log book check today at the rest area in Nichols, NY. No violations:clap:

However the Trooper said I should not sign the Log Book until the end of the day. It says next to the signature area "I certify these entries are true and correct". Obviously I have been in the habit of signing the form at the beginning of the day to show that I do certify the entries are correct. Hypothetically if I did not sign the box and I made a log entry error then I can't receive a ticket for the error since the log is not certified for that current day. [No violations were issued, I am just thinking lawyer style]

Found this - Obviously the record must be signed, but no mention of when.

Also I disassemble my log book pages or to put it another way I use loose log book pages. The Trooper had a major problem with this. He wanted to know why and I explained that "it's the way I was trained". I even showed him my clipboard, demonstrated the manner in which I used the loose pages, and the benefits for me. [Easier to show than to write so I'll leave out the details] Like I said no violations so the earful must have been my punishment for that. Part 395.8 said nothing about requiring the pages to be bound, nor are the words book or bound even in that section.

I have been checking the FMCSA rules and regulations pages online looking for the legal\correct way(s) but I keep losing my connection. I'll keep trying and post an update if I find anything useful.. If anyone has definitive information or can point me in the right direction I would appreciate it.

Thanks,
Dan

There are not any regulations saying exactly when you must sign your log book, however it can be taken, by signing it first thing, that you are certifying all the log entries on that page are accurate and then making any new log entries on that page could be seen as tampering with an official document.

Also there are not any regulations saying what style of log book you must use. The only regulations governing the actual log book contains what each log page must contain. (24 time grid, carrier name, etc. )

The only other reg pertaining to the actual physical log book really is the one telling you that you must have todays and the last 7 days log book pages in your possession and be ready to provide for inspection upon request.

The whole reason cops hate loose leaf is because it makes it a lot easier to cheat that the bound version. With the bound version if you remove more than a page or two it becomes obvious and if you do remove a page from it you have to make sure to get the part of the page under the binding.

Some DOT types have been known to actually count how many log sheets are in a log book and if they come up with less than 31 they start hearing alarms and the ching ching of the fine register.

The NY trooper had a bug up his butt.....and you were next in line.

It doesn't matter when you sign the log..... and to give you the opposite of NY, if you got checked in CA....its probably more than likely CHP would gripe that you didn't sign it.

I have always signed mine when I begin the day.....and since its the only place that my name appears on the log sheet....and I have been "Level 1'd" a number of times, and it has never come up.

As to loose leaf.....been doing it for years....and again...never had a word said about it.

I guess some DOT/Troopers have to complain about something..... And on the other hand, others apparently don't automatically "assume" you are up to something illegal.....

Thanks Uturn2001 & Skywalker. Just wanted to make sure I did'nt goof.

Thanks Again,
Dan

I was taught to never sign it until the day was over, because signing it would signify you say it is a complete and accurate document.

Just to toss in my two bits, What I was taught, 30 years ago, was that you are required to sign the log book, to identify that it is "Your" logbook, and to certify that "You" are the individual making the entries, and that you sign it, "When you start the day".

You can read this part of the regulation just about anyway you choose,



Now, 30 years ago things were different.

Would never stand up in court, there is no regulation saying when it must be signed, only that you sign it and confirm the entries as correct.

If you sign a log book at 06:00 when you wake up/start your day/do your PTI, whatever, are all your entries done for the day? No. Your line is not at the end of the 24hr block, thus ALL ENTRIES are not completed. And signing a log book at 06:00 would/could be considered falsification. Much like if you were parked for the night, knew your 11 and 14 hr clocks were burnt up, and it was 23:00, most drivers draw the line to the end of the day....that is falsification. Do i do that? sure, who dont. But i dont sign my logbook till the end of the day.

Thank you for getting us all straight on that Kev.

i am correct, arent i?

Ok, if your the DOT/Tropper please show me which Reg, you are gonna cite to write an infraction that clearly states that the log [must] be signed at the end of the day?

No, you're not. Even if the log is not signed, you can still be cited for falsifying your log.
The regs do not say when the log needs to be signed, only that it needs to be signed. What I am assuming is the confusion here is this:


But the vehicle inspection report is not the log.

dont disagree with you there, but re-read my post and tell me where i'm wrong?

Okay...just to do a little Lawyer thinking of my own....

If you sign it at 0h dark thirty as you say, and you have ONLY entered the PTI and (I guess started a line or indicated the beginning of line 3) are stopped 15 mins down the road, at the TIME you are stopped and inspected, ALL your entries would be current and correct.

The reg you quoted only says that your signature certifies ALL entries that are ON the log. Now.... you wouldn't want to get caught having finished out the day's log (as you stated) before you have actually arrived at a delivery and/or made it.

I doubt finishing out the night once you are ROD and can't legally move would be a major problem. EVEN if you got rousted at 11 p.m. for a logbook check, it would not be "untrue" that you are OFF DUTY at that time.... and WILL be until after midnight.

I agree that there seems to be no clarification in the regs (big surprise) about WHEN to sign the log, but I believe the "spirit" of the reg assumes that it will be signed after the LAST duty status change of the day.

I also found very interesting the concept that until you sign it, you SHOULD be allowed to correct it without getting a ticket. But, I also know that the DOT probably don't THINK that way.

You have NO IDEA how lucky you might be! ONE slip of the tongue, and you COULD have received a ticket for falsification based on your OWN testimony.

NEVER offer more information than you are asked for.

Loose leaf logs are an immediate "flag" for the officer that you might be cheating your logs. Whether you are or not... you could "explain" yourself right into an OOS order AND/OR a ticket.

BTW.... I'm pointing you toward the "Rules, Regs, and Dac, oh my" subforum on this site (where this thread actually belongs.) You will find more info on logging there.

Tell us more about yourself, and welcome to CAD!

Where are you getting this from?

this line right here:

No, it wouldn't. The regs do not say when the log needs to be signed. The regs only indicate when the vehicle inspection report needs to be signed.

You're not correct. You're Kevin. The Supah truckah.

From the "hypothetical" in the O.P. It's called English Comprehension, Rev. You should try it sometime. :lol2:

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

This is one of those nice....read it any way you like it regs.

The regs say that signing the log book certified that all entries are correct.

Valid arguments can be made as to this meaning (for those who advocate signing 1st thing in the day) all entries up to the current one are correct or for those who advocate signing at the end of the day it can just as easily mean that you have completed all entries for the day and certify them to be correct.

Because no specific time frame is given for the signing off on your log entries you are going to be right and wrong in the eyes of a DOT cop depending on how they personally and/or their state interprets this rule, but because of the same vagueness they would have a very hard time making any citation stick for signing it either way.

ok...ill do my best perry mason impression....

first off, nowhere did i say in my post that you should be able to go back and make changes to your logbook up until you sign it. If you and others have read that into what i actually posted, then that is your fault.

what i'm saying is that in the regs that says "ALL ENTRIES". Yeah, you are current in your senario, Golf, and correct that all your entries up to that point are accurate. So I would assume that you are going to resign the logbook after every entry?? I take things literally, and when something says 'all entries', that means ALL. If you go back a day later and realize you forgot to put your miles down, and you happen to have signed it, BOOM.....ticket. If you signed it, and then after you pulled it out to turn into the company, and you happen to find that you forgot to write anything on your last 'flag' in remakrs at the end of the day....BOOM.....ticket.

Now i'm saying 'ticket' if you were pulled around a scale house, and a DOT punk was auditing your logbook. The question is, you are in the middle of your day, you've signed your logbook, and the DOT guy sees you've just started your day 2 hours ago, and in conversation with you knows you still plan to work/drive 10 more hours, CAN he legally give you a ticket?? yes he can. Just like in Ohio...if u was clocked doing 56, can u legally get a ticket?

and please, rev or whoever, show me where used these words and said 'until you sign the logbook, you can go back and make changes even with a DOT guy standing right there'.

Doubtfull. Untill you exceed the hours no ticket.

Personally I don't think any ticket they give you would stick in court, because the reg just doesn't specify. But I do think whoever wrote it was thinking sign it when complete, name another document you sign before it is complete? I can't think of any.

it says you certify all entries are correct, so as long as all future entries are correct, what's the problem, you have only certified that entries made are correct. if you havent made an entry you havent certified it. if I tell the officer I plan on speeding later can he give me a ticket for that?

Whether or not you signed it, you could still get a ticket for incomplete log. In one scenario, your log is incomplete because you didn't put the total miles down. In the other, it is incomplete because you didn't put the miles down, and you didn't sign it.

He can give you a ticket for whatever he wants, but that would be speculation, and wouldn't hold up in court.

Too bad the wording in the reg dont say 'future entries'.

and Rev.....i totally agree.

Jesu Christo! Doesn't ANYBODY learn English Comp anymore??

Rev asked me where I "got" that from. I said from the O.P. Perhaps, you don't realize that means Original Post(er). Are YOU the original poster on this thread? :hellno:

I suppose I confused you by adding that little tidbit to my response to YOUR post. That happens. Just because I am quoting and answering YOUR post, does NOT mean that I can't say something about a "concept" I read in someone else's that I found interesting. It ain't always about YOU, Kevin. ;)

As for your Perry Mason interpretation.... you fail. Perry would NEVER have missed that vital piece of information as to where that "concept" was mentioned. :lol2:

For the record, however, I agree with you that the "usual, legal practice" is to sign a document AFTER you have read it, or completed it, to show that you understand it or certify it. Unfortunately, the regs just DON'T make it clear as to whether that is what is expected.

There are certain college exams where you are required to sign/certify the validity and truthfullness of your OWN answers before you even start the test. You don't sign?..... You don't get to take the test. Just an example.

It isnt? you SURE????? :P

there is a bit of a difference between a college exam and federal paperwork.

Just to throw a little gas on the fire. When in court you swear to tell the truth before NOT AFTER! I sign it at the start of my day That's that, I have spoken!

hope someone's listening

again, like the college exam....not relevant.

I disagree. I believe it IS relevant. (and a very good point!)

Courts are federal, state or other and as such are on a par with the "testimony" one is about to give on a log sheet.

No one asks you to SIGN your testimony after you give it in court. You have already sworn that it is/will be true. This is very much like signing the logsheet in advance to "swear" that you will only make true and complete entries.

Again, I still believe in signing it AFTER all entries are complete.... but, you can't argue with Repete's logic. :thumbsup:

incorrect. When you give a sworn statement of fact, an affidavit, you sign it AFTERWARDS. When you give live testimony in open court, you 'swear to tell the truth, blah blah blah...' beforehand, yes. But any testimony you give in court that is on paper, is signed afterwards.

I have given sworn testimony in court several times. It was NEVER on "paper." I NEVER signed anything afterwards.

As "professional" drivers, we are required to fill out an ROD. It is incumbent on us that we will make only "truthful" entries. It is also required that, before that ROD is submitted to our company and the DOT, that we sign it to attest to it's validity. I see nothing in the regs that specifies the time that we should sign it, nor anything that relieves us of any liability if we DON'T!

The regulations are at times VERY vague, Kevin. We can argue about specifics all we want, but the "spirit" of the law is what is important. :lol2:

On the other hand.... the regs say that ANY method of correction is allowed on our logs. This begs the question that we might make a mistake concerning an entry, especially for those of us who cross many time zones (and especially those who change their watches to reflect local time.) It is even allowable for a company to return a logsheet to us FOR "correction" before it is submitted. :eek1:

This is why I mentioned that I was supportive of the idea that we should be able to make CHANGES to our logs, as long as the effort was there to keep them current, EVEN in the face of a roadside inspection, whether we have signed the log or NOT!

I don't believe that states should be able to generate revenue off of a simple mistake made by a driver that cannot be substantiated as a CLEAR violation of the HOS rules.

But, as I stated, the DOT doesn't think that way.

My last company had a place on the log sheet for you to sign showing that this was your log sheet and this was your hand writing; you signed this at the beginning of the day. There was another place to sign that stated entries were true and correct; you signed this at the end of the day. It also had a 8 day recap on the sheet which I found very convenient.

My current company just has the one place to sign that the entries are true and correct. I complete that at the end of the day. I have had a number of level 1 and 3 inspections, and couple traffic stops :-( with this company; officer never said a thing about my not having signed it.

No, the precedent set by judges' interpretation of the regulation is what is important. Your interpretation of the "spirit" of the regulations is completely and utterly irrelevant. Unless, of course, you've recently been made a judge.

As such, the "layperson" can only go based upon past precedent, or the specific wording of the regulations themselves. To do otherwise is setting up for disaster.

I would love to see a defendant go into court and try to argue with the judge about the "spirit" of the regulation.

There are many vagarities and inconsistencies in the regs. I can think of several situations where a "spirit" defense, or one based on conflicting/vague regs COULD be successful.

If I ever find myself in that situation, I will be sure to invite you to the trial!

BTW, one wouldn't be arguing with the JUDGE about the law. One would be arguing with the D.A. and perhaps the "precedents." I have read MANY rulings by judges who decided that the precedent was either wrongly decided or inapplicable to the case.

Precedents are useful but not compulsive. The great thing about our judicial system is that EACH case MUST be "judged" based on the merits of that case.

The Annenberg letter makes several references to what could be considered the "spirit" of the regs. By doing so, she has opened the door to using that as a defense.

Please cite one example where it has been used successfully.

I don't really have the time, Rev. I never SAID that I could cite a reference. I said I could THINK of some scenarios where it COULD be used.

Are you EVER going to learn how to READ and comprehend? :hellno:

I can think of scenarios where I can fly and walk through walls. That doesn't mean it will actually ever happen.

I was WONDERING who had all the good drugs these days. Now I know. :eek1: