You believe what the ATA tells you? The ATA has an agenda to put illegal aliens behind their wheels so they constantly spout off about the driver "shortage".

If there were a true shortage, you'd see freight piling up on the docks, produce rotting in warehouses, stuff not getting delivered, etc.

Nope. The more you make, the more vacation time you have vested, the more they want to get rid of you and get a guy to do your job for .26 cpm. There's a reason so many trucking companies were unionized back in the day.

Oh really? Name them.

Mine doesn't. Snowman's doesn't. Belpre's doesn't.

Yeah, that's great advice. Get stuck sitting around waiting on loads, doing short-hauls, not getting home...and suck up the BS just to hone your skills. LOL there's a big difference between paying your dues and playing the fool.

Hence, the unfortunate birth of irregular route, hobo style, coolie carrier OTR trucking.

We are fortunately watching the demise of that circus.

Don't know what that has to do with unions KC0IV, but as long as it hastens the end of irregular-route, hobo style coolier carrier OTR trucking, I'm all for it.

73

I think if GMAN were to compare those employees to his own business relationships, he might sing a different tune. When an O/O accepts a load, he does so based upon certain criteria, most of which have to do with profit. If the load has some unusual circumstances about it, then the O/O will adjust the rate accordingly. Running OTR as a company driver should be no different. Being forced to spend weeks (even months) away from home should be considered an "unusual circumstance", and should require a higher rate of pay than a local or regional driver who gets home more often. But it doesn't, and the OTR carriers know they don't have to make it so. The reason they can get away with this is for one reason, and one reason only:

The drivers don't know any better, and the OTR carriers take advantage of it. It's really not all that different from the lease purchase scams, only in one scenario they own you because you are renting a job, and in the other scenario they own you because you think that's the way it has to be.

Unfortunately, an OTR driver's worst enemy is himself, and the coolie carriers laugh all the way to the bank knowing it.

I'm sure the OTR carriers love those phrases (It's a lifestyle, it's what you make of it, etc etc etc), because it helps them pull the crap they do when their employees develop that type of attitude.

Belpre...I'm still not getting this here....

Why and how do you see OTR driving dissappearing? I just don't get it. There are companies going under, but there are others, like MINE who are expanding in the current market.

How else are they gonna do it? Send everything LTL? :P Dedicated runs for EVERY business? :roll: Every business having it's own FLEET? :?

How's it gonna work, oh all-knowing oracle? :twisted:

Here in Ohio I think they will be an abundance of people willing to become truckers. It is estimated that 250,000 people lost jobs in manufacturing from 2000-2005.

General Motors has been shutting down plants about every other year here in Ohio and just announced it will be shutting down its SUV plant in Dayton in 2010, that will affect about 5,000 people directly but will indirectly impact several thousand more.

THERE WILL BE NO MORE GM PLANTS IN THIS PART OF OHIO AFTER 2010 :sad:

I was a machinist making $35,000 a year ( for 5 years) till I was laid off in 2004.

In 2005 I had the great oppurtunity to work at Walmart, Target and Lowes for a whopping $190.00 a week and decided to try OTR. I did OTR for 15 months with Schneider/Walmart then found a local company and i am home daily :lol:

OTR was no picnic but kept the bills paid and sure beat retail but I have decided to go to school online while I drive locally.

Rail is expanding at a dramatic pace. Coolie carrier companies like JB Hunt and Schneider are moving a HUGE portion of their long haul freight via rail now. They are even expanding the size of many tunnels to accomodate these intermodal cars.

OTR will never entirely disappear, but in today's market it doesn't have as much of an impact.

Oh, I agree, the industry will have to change with the times, and that's to be expected. I heard one major railroad company is investing over 5 billion dollars into expanding it's network and improving tunnels, as you just mentioned. Much of the long haul, coast to coast stuff IS moving to rail...

But there is so much a train just can't do, and never will be able to do. Like it or not, OTR driving will NEVER disappear; I don't even think it'll get a whole lot smaller than it is right now.

Which is fine, as it serves as a great way to get into the industry, and there are those of us who really enjoy the traveling.

May not be your cup o' tea, but that doesn't mean that there aren't people who enjoy it... :)

The funny thing is, those guys running the coolie carriers' trailers on rail are getting paid a heck of a lot better than the guys running those same trailers on the road.

The rail companies know that it's a difficult profession, and they pay better rates to get better employees. If rail companies paid lousy rates, they'd get lousy employees too. But they know they cannot afford to do put a multi-million dollar piece of equipment with millions of dollars of freight into the hands of an unqualified person. Perhaps if the OTR carriers would reach this same conclusion, we would see a change.

they wouldn't do that rev, it would be the INTELLIGENT thing to do!

I'm not getting it. Why were turn around routes the reason trucking companies were unionized?

Yes, such an arrangement would help facilitate an organizing effort. But you dodged the question: WHY were trucking companies organized in the first place?

LeBron James of the Cleveland Cavaliers made $40.5 million last season. And you know what? He's a card-carrying union member who shells out union dues. Hmmmm...why would someone who earns $40.5 million see the value of a union?

Here we go again. Deregulation did not CAUSE irregular-route trucking, but I would agree that it did help to facilitate it.

Here are some amazing numbers to look at.

When I went to Schneider to train in 2006 they were taking in about 80 students a week like 50 weeks out of the year.

About 50 out of 80 students graduated each week.

A trainer who worked there for several years told me that basically out of the 80 students who came each week only 10-15 students actually complete 1 year.

80 students X 50 weeks= 4,000 students a year
12.5 students X 50 weeks= 625 who complete 1 year

Bring in 4,000 a year end up with 625 :? :?

In order to maintain a fleet of 15,000 + trucks, Schneider has to hire several thousands to keep hundreds.

Those are just rough numbers out of thier Green Bay facility, they have like 5 other major training facilities.

Let's not forget that most of the problems encountered by these drivers were caused by the drivers themselves. By no means is the company responsible for problems.

True belpre122, Schneider is a good company. I left them because I am not a fan of OTR. If I ever decided to go back to OTR I would probably go back. I found a local Class A position and now get home daily :)

I was treated well by Schneider for the 15 months I was there, I would suggest them to anybody trying to get started.

15,000 drivers and a 120% turnover rate in 2006 meant that Schneider had to hire 18,000 people per year to replace those that quit. :shock:

No they vote on whether to keep the NBA Player's Association every year. Believe it or not, a union is a very democratic institution. For a couple of years, the NBA Player's Association was actually voted out and the players operated without a contract. This is also true of the NFL and MLB Player's Association as well.

The answer to the question is that these players earning millions see value in having a collective bargaining agreement with the owners. That's the advantage of operating under a legally binding contract - both parties sit down and negotiate a set of written agreements such that neither side can screw the other over.

In trucking, the carriers hold all the cards. They can starve a man out, leave him sitting, roll back pay, play dispatch headgames, etc because the driver's only recourse is to quit or say "that's trucking" and suck up the BS.

Or, what is the standard mantra of the apologists? Oh yeah.

"It's a lifestyle."

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Your lifestyle maybe.

LeBron James wrote:
Because if the NBA wasn't unionized, those guys would all be getting paid a flat fee per game, cutting each others throats for the opportunity to play, and the race to the bottom would be underway, just like in OTR trucking. :lol:

I find it interesting that the thread has taken an anti/pro union twist.

I haven't been approached by any union trying to get me interested. That intrigues me because it seems like we are a very large pool of potential dues payers.

If any company Driver has been approached, please speak up.

To the contrary, company Drivers might be interested to know that a large portion of the warehouse network we deliver to/from were and are being built with union pension money. Has anyone else noticed how much new warehouse space is being built? Anyway, we have a close relationship with the union(s) but no one is trying to sign us up . . and it makes me wonder . .

The Teamsters owned a big chunk of Swift stock. In fact they were suing Swift prior to Moyes, etc, buying the shares back and taking the company private. There has been some speculation that the Teamster suit was the reason . . and it makes me wonder . .

I'm kind of suggesting the mega-carriers may have a "hands off our Drivers" arrangement with the union(s) but who knows? Anything is possible, I guess. At the same time, maybe the unions are in the process of building a nationwide feeder system and, once in place, they'll come knocking on the sleeper to try to sign me up.

If you like the mega carriers being in control, don't do or say anything.

If you want the unions to be in control, give them a call and sign your ass up.

If YOU want to be in control, you're going to have to get active and get the law changed.

Be thankful for your freedom! Have a safe and happy 4th!

So, you are saying that it OK for drivers to STEAL from their employers and ABANDON the equipment that they have been assigned? :roll:

Although the contracts are often multi-year agreements, there is a provision in every contract that states the union can be decertified at any time during the year. The NFL Player's Association was decertified in 1989 and was re-established in 1993. Yes, it does take a majority vote to do so.

Yes:

Article V, Section 1: "Every NFL player has the option of joining or not joining the NFLPA"

OK, then according to that logic why do these players who earn millions and have skills that are obviously in demand agree to join a union and pay dues?

You either trucked 20-some odd years ago or you just didn't realized you were getting screwed or just went along with the screwing thinking you were making big $$$$.

Landstar has no company drivers, so their turnover rate is irrelevant to this discussion. But whoever told you they have lost 1500 drivers is wrong. Their total driver count has remained flat this year.


I think you better read what I wrote again. If you rented a house to a bunch of crack dealers, would you really be justified in complaining that they were dealing crack out of the house? The same applies to companies hiring less than desirable drivers to operate their equipment. If they don't want the problems of dealing with lousy employees, they should pay a rate that will attract better employees, or STFU.

There isn't a good way for carriers to screen everyone to see who will steal from them or abandon a truck. It is difficult to find this information out unless the driver was charged by a previous action. To say that all problems are the cause of the carrier is as wrong as saying that ALL problems with this industry are caused by the drivers. Neither are true. There are problems on both sides. Not all drivers steal. Not all carriers are bad. There is absolutely NO excuse for someone to steal from the company for whom they work. In fact, I see no reason for anyone to steal. I wish more carriers would prosecute those who steal. Unfortunately, it is sometimes cheaper to simply get rid of the driver than go through the process of filing charges. It has the same effect as an insurance company paying off a claim that they know is wrong, but it is less expensive to pay the claim than take it to court. Rather than steal from his company or abandon a truck the driver should quit. That is the right thing to do.

While I will concede that there problems on both sides, the side that has the ability and need to take action is the CARRIER. The fact that they don't take action causes those bad apples to continue in the industry.

Many carriers don't even go that far. They let these bad apples mess up time and time again because it is cheaper to fix their mistakes than to put someone else into the truck. When they finally do fire them, they do so quietly.

The right thing to do only applies to the good apples. The bad apples don't give a damn. What the industry needs is more good apples. They will not get them when they are paying substandard wages.

What happens when the airline industry gets a pilot who doesn't cut it? They get fired. Does that pilot immediately go get into another plane and fly for someone else? No. The trucking industry should be no different.

If they abandoned their truck...They're probably not coming in tomorrow GMAN! :lol:

It would help if carriers could put more specific information in a DAC report. The way it is now, there is only certain information that can be placed in a driver's report. It is too generic. Carrier's are too afraid of being sued. Some of the carriers just don't want to have to deal with litigation. It makes it more difficult for others to get accurate information. That is one reason some of these bad apples slip through the cracks. They need to make a lot of noise about these drivers. If we could get rid of some of these people it would make it easier to justify paying higher wages.

We do need more good apples. We have some good drivers now. It is a shame that there are so many on the lower end of the performance scale. I don't consider $40-50M+/year as substandard wages. That is a higher wage than most people in this country earn.

You think? :P

Most people in this country dont work 100hour work weeks.

That is also a higher wage than most OTR drivers earn.

Most people in this country don't want to work 40 hours a week. :P


I have no idea of what the national average for OTR drivers is when you factor in those just coming into the business. Most will not start in this salary range, but could be consistently earning in this range within a few years. There are a lot of experienced OTR drivers who earn over $40M/year.

You mean 40k/year, right G?

That comes out to $10-$12 an hour. Do you honestly think $10-$12 an hour is a fair wage for what is expected of an OTR driver?

Furthermore, do you honestly expect that $10-$12 an hour is an adequate wage to keep good experienced drivers in the industry?

I can tell you already that if it was, there wouldn't be the problems with turnover that there is. There would never be any talk of a driver shortage. Nobody would ever leave the industry until they retired.

There is a reason why people don't compare truck drivers to airline pilots, but rather compare trucking to working at McDonalds......

This discussion is getting pretty juicy here....

I can see both sides of this, but there are problems with each. Sure, I agree $40-50k a year is more than most make in today's economy, but because of the long hours, it attracts more "bad apples" than good.

Rev, and everyone else is very quick to point out that they should pay more and have higher standards. My question is this:

Where does it come from?

Freight rates just AREN'T that high! How is a company...any company...going to be able to afford a 'resonable' wage for a driver? I agree, what we do is worth WAY more than $10-12 an hour...but who's gonna pay it? NOT our customers, because the minute a company raises it's rates to reflect a higher pay for the driver is the minute that company signs it's death certificate, as NOBODY will pay that much for freight! There will ALWAYS be companies who will undercut you. Always.

Nowadays the only good way a carrier can pay more than it's competition is if it runs a leaner, more efficient business, with less losses and overhead. Some companies, like mine, are more picky with drivers and are more apt to fire a driver over being abusive and/or wasteful, and so they can pay a bit more than average. But...how can a company as big as Swift, Schneider, or any of the other big ones do that, when they are desperate to keep drivers in the seat already? Furthermore...how's a company NOT as big as swift or Schneider going to raise their rates, when the big guys are just going to undercut them, keep stuffing drivers in the seat for the current pay rate, and drive them out of business?

What's the solution? More regulation? :x That's the LAST thing this country needs at the moment, for the government to start getting it's hands in things it doesn't need.

What do you guys suggest? That's REASONABLE??? :twisted:

Thanks for the nod, Tom. Taking the time to acknowledge my brilliance is something that most simply do not take the time to do. I sense that it is heartfelt and sincere. Thank you.

Regarding your inquiry in the above post? I have to go to bed for a few hours and recharge my thinking cap and will let the Reverend, LeBron or one of the boys take care of you. If you are still in need of a bit of my forward thinking advice when I wake up, I will gladly come to your rescue. :wink:

Simple. Eliminate OTR company drivers. There are plenty of carriers who run intermodal who can handle more freight, and I'm positive the independent truckers would love to see rates increase for OTR runs. Let the company drivers do short haul and regional. Then that $10-$12 an hour isn't as bad.

It will never happen though. Not as long as there is a steady stream of suckers lining up to get into the coolie carriers' shiny Freightliners with the promise that they'll make it rich, and will simply have to eliminate their real lives because "it's what you make of it".

Like I said before. Rates wont go up until the drivers refuse to do it anymore. The industry (carriers, shippers and receivers) pays for the mininum level of acceptable performance and that's what they get. They're happy with it and they wont pay more so its up to the driver to say I wont do it. Until then, nothing will change. If your hauling cheap freight you get cheap wages. If you want more money switch to a commodity that requires more skill, experience, and responsibility.

Bottom line is too many guys say yeah I'll do it. Why should a carrier pay more than they have too?