Just an Thought About The Turnover Rate
 

i have a thought, albeit i'm not yet a driver so if you guys give me heat just be easy and tell me if i'm wrong or not and i'll accept it..
I'm in school right now to get my cdl and so on.. i've been wanting to be a truck driver since i was 3 years old, from my dad, to 3 uncles, and a few cousins i've always been around and riding in trucks. Since i was a kid i was never the type to just sit and play video games or jump back in the sleeper and go to sleep in the truck, i was always up and asking questions (not to the point to get on my family nerves), so i've known about the industry and what i was about to get into since i was young..

The point i'm trying to get to is that so many of these "Coolie Carriers" put ad's in the paper saying free training, make up to $45,000 your first year and get great hometime!! Little do the general public knows who calls to respond to that ad, that don't usual know about the one year contract and if u break it you owe up to $6,000, and if they recruiter tells them, he usual does he's job and sells him on, little do they know that making up to $35 to $45 thousand is nearly impossible unless they run team with some person they don't know or never go home for months at a time, and the recruiter also tells them that yeah "you will be home every weekend" little do he know that means getting in sometime saturday and leaving on early mid day sunday... Once that driver who went through all that mess from training to on the road training, and found out 3 to 4 months down the road that if he's not going to make no more than $400 to $500 dollars a week for sometime (and i hear thats for a good week at .30 cents a mile), get's tired of only being home 34 hours on a weekend which he thought he would have the whole weekend off and see's that another coolie carrier will offer him better which they won't he'll get mad and quit his current job.. cause little did he know he didn't know what he was getting into and went on some guy word who odds are have never even been inside of a truck before and neither did he..

Me on the other hand, i know the questions to ask these clowns and i also know what i'm getting to.. another is i'm looking around both local and otr position which i know could best suit me. Since i'm 21 and i live in a remote area in virginia i know OTR is a big possibility for me. I've heard other trainees talk about how their going to make such and such money when they first get out that it's funny!! sure u can make hell of money so what i've heard by first starting delivering cokes, propane tanks, and being a local P&D drivers, but they see those orange pumpkins and the big blue going up and down 95 and based on what that guy told them on the phone that they are going to make over 40 just starting off.. and i just laugh... for example schenider has the wal mart dedicated in zion cross in virginia.. the recruiter came to my school and told me that i could make over 35 my first year!! i looked at him and said "dude i did the research, how could i make 35 first starting off at .30 cents a mile only running 2000 a week if i'm lucky with no stop or drop and hook pay??" i got pure silence from him and all he could do was look at my trainer and go "where did you get this kid from" Cause i did my home work, know what i'm getting into, and be damn if i'm going to go with a company i'm going to quit 3 to 4 months down the road..

PLAIN AND SIMPLE, NEW DRIVERS NEED TO DO THE RESEARCH OR ASK SOME FAMILY AND FRIENDS BEFORE GETTING INTO THIS TYPE OF WORK.. KNOW WHAT YOUR GETTING INTO.. DON'T SAY TRUCKING SUCKS OR YOU GOT SCREWED CAUSE YOU DIDNT KNOW WHAT YOUR GETTING INTO... I'VE READ PLENTY OF STORIES ON THIS BOARD AND FACT OF THE MATTER WAS IT SOUNDED LIKE IT WAS THE NEW DRIVER, NOT THE COMPANY, WHO WAS PROMISED EVERYTHING THE RECRUITER ONCE TOLD HIM AND HE HATES TRUCKING TO A T!!! DONT GO ON THE WORD OF A DORKY TEENAGE GUY OR GIRL SITTING BEHIND A DESK READING A COMPUTER...

Thats the reason i think the turnover rate is so high

guys you can tell me if i'm wrong or not...

Turnover rate is caused by companies paying low wages and the availability of new student drivers.

That's why I always say If driver TRAINORS would drive solo, all current drivers pay would go up.

"Just A Thought..."
 

"i'm 21" You're gonna be limited in the companies that will take you on due to your age. But since you've done the research, I'm sure you already know that. BOL

There are a number of reasons why there is such a high turnover in trucking. There are some recruiters who are not truthful with new applicants. There are also some applicants who are not truthful with the recruiters. There is also a problem with many carriers who hire people to dispatch who have no driving experience. This can create conflicts with the driver by having unrealistic expectations from the driver. Rather than trying to work through the conflict the driver will often quite and go to the next carrier. I have been a proponent of only hiring dispatchers who have at least 2 years of driving experience.

Part of the reason is the quality of new drivers coming into the industry. While some are good and have a good work ethic, many do not. A driver will leave one company and go to another for as little as a penny a mile raise. For those who complain about low driver compensation, you need to look at some of these drivers and how they take care of their equipment. I have seen some new trucks that have been trashed by the drivers. It costs a lot of money to detail that truck for the next driver. Some won't even raise the hood to check the oil and water. The more money a carrier has to spend on keeping up their equipment the less money their is for driver pay. To be honest, I have seen some drivers who aren't worth what they are being paid. On the other hand, there are those who give the extra effort and will eventually be compensated for their extra care.

There are false expectations by some who come into this business. Many problems could be alevieated by good communication. There are those who expect top pay right out of driving school. About the only thing you learn in driving school is how to get a CDL. The real learning comes when you get with your trainer and start hitting the open road.

I think many of the large carriers have contributed to this high turnover by hiring people to fill seats instead of looking deeper at the individual and their work habits. If a drive moves around a lot then he is likely looking for something that he won't find in this industry. Some companies will hire about anyone who has a CDL. That can also contribute to the turnover rate.

The main thing is to do your homework about this industry and the carrier for whom you plan on working. Carriers may move the numbers around, but most compensate their drivers about the same. There are some who pay more. Those carriers tend to be a little more selective.

When you look at the turnover rates they can be misleading. Much of the turnover is from those moving from one carrier to another. There are those who decide to leave the industry, but the raw numbers don't tell the entire story. There is much more movement within the industry than he raw numbers would indicate. It would be good to have numbers that would break down the figures to those moving to another carrier to those leaving the industry.

Driving a truck is much different than most other jobs. You are away from home for extended times and basically live a different lifestyle than other types of jobs. Most people don't live and work in the same place. In trucking you take two steps from your work place to your bed. Some people thrive in this type of environment. Others falter. It is difficult to compare otr driving with any other job. There really isn't any other job quite like driving otr.

After 18 years in this biz...doing everything from loading package cars at UPS to logistics in the Air Force to management at FedEx to multi-stop produce to LTL and mail hauling...I've come to several conclusions:

1) there is no driver "shortage", just a lack of blue-collar Americans willing to be used, abused, short-changed, lied-to, stolen from, hung out to dry, ripped-off, blamed for everything, disrespected, etc.
2) log 70, work 80-100, paid for 50.
3) the vast majority of OTR van/reefer haulers stink to high heaven.
4) most good trucking jobs are union or there exists some type of union influence in the biz whereby other non-union companies pay close to union scale (LTL is a good example).
5) the industry at large is trying their darndest to put illegal aliens behind their wheels by falsely promoting said driver "shortage" (see #1).
6) deregulation of the industry was good for consumers and investors but terrible for drivers.

It's true you gotta have a plan to reach the brass ring in this biz, but as time marches on that ring gets higher and higher and higher as more and more good-paying truckin' jobs go by the wayside. Dunno that I'd enter this profession if I could roll the clock back and have another go at it. But as long as I'm pulling down a good buck, I'll keep on truckin' I guess.

Very well said LBJ. I dont understand how anyone can disagree with you.

Well said LBJ.

If I was young, OTR would be the last job on this planet I would want.

Wait until next year when the Mexican Carriers Pilot Project is finished (September 08 ) and the border is wide open, rates are going fall and fuel is going to keep rising.

[quote="GMAN"]

When you look at the turnover rates they can be misleading. Much of the turnover is from those moving from one carrier to another. There are those who decide to leave the industry, but the raw numbers don't tell the entire story. There is much more movement within the industry than he raw numbers would indicate. It would be good to have numbers that would break down the figures to those moving to another carrier to those leaving the industry.
quote]

Our resident recruiters will (should) be able to provide some real numbers. No need to divulge company numbers but if they have industry numbers, I'd like to see them. My company keeps exit interview numbers but I have no idea where to find them.

My understanding is that #1 is GONE! It's high . . something like 50% of all new to driving Drivers are gone within 6 months and most of them just didn't like it for any number of reasons.

As to the "Driver shortage" . . The law of supply and demand would dictate wages should be rising. If there is a shortage, the law is being broken.

I was in Carney's Point at the Flying J yesterday. While in the restroom, there were a couple of maintenance men talking. They were discussing something about an electrical problem in the store. One told the other that he wasn't going to do anything with electricity. He didn't want to learn anything or know how to do anything other than what he was doing. He said that the more he did the more the company would expect. He only wanted to do just what he had to do to keep his job. In fact, he started to talk to himself after the other guy left. I am not sure he even cared whether he kept his job or not. This guy didn't seem to understand that when companies hand out raises or look for people to promote, they look for those with initiative who will go the extra mile. They don't look for those who only do what they must to keep their jobs. Unfortunately, this seems to be more wide spread than I would have expected. There are drivers who will only do the minimum to keep their jobs. They never clean their trucks or do anything that will put them out. They won't even change out a trailer light. In some cases, all they have to do is unplug one and put in the new one. Instead, they would rather wait 4 hours at a TA to have the mechanic put one in and charge their company $80+ for a 5 minute job. The driver not only cost his company money, but he also lost 4 hours of driving time. If he had gone slightly out of his way and changed the light he would have been on the road and made money instead of sitting on his hands.

Companies want people who will take initiative. They want those who are honest and who will take care of their equipment. There seems to be more than enough of those who want to whine about this industry, yet they don't want to do anything to make things better. Unions are great for those who don't want to work. It always takes me longer to get unloaded at a union facility. There always seems to be 5 people standing around to watch one guy do the work.

This country used to have a work ethic that the world envied. In recent years, we seem to have more whiners than hard workers. When you can make $40,000+ in a job, you are making a decent wage. In fact, you are making more than most jobs in this country. You can make that much money or more by doing a good job. You don't even need a college education. You can go to a CDL school for a few weeks and within a year or two be making $35,000-40,000. There aren't many jobs where you can start with no experience or education and earn that much money in such a short period of time.

The problem we have is not enough people want to work. They would rather complain than do their job. They want the big bucks, but are not willing to do what is necessary to make the money. If you think you are under paid then find another job. Save your money and buy your own truck. Get your authority. There are options available to you. Most people are paid what they are worth. In this industry, most people are paid by the mile. If you want to make more money, then you can either drive more miles or find a job that will pay you more per mile. The mileage rate usually increases with experience. Starting out you won't make top mileage rates. If you work in a factory, you won't start out at top pay, either. People need to learn their jobs. That takes time. If you are new to this industry, you will not make as much as you will 2 or 5 years down the road. You can't have everything your way. You work for the company. They don't work for you. If you want everything your way then go buy your own truck, get your authority and see what you are worth. By the way, you still won't have everything your way. Life is about compromise. We all give up something to achieve our goals. I like performance pay. It is the best form of compensation. You find out very quickly who is working and who is not. When you pay people by the hour they tend to only do what they must to get by. When people are paid on their personal performance they tend to do more. There are still those who will wallow in their mediocrity. It is often easier to complain than do something.

But not many other professions where you live out of a 8X10 fiberglass box for weeks (and weekends) on end and put in 70-100 hours per week on the job.

Plenty of people who want to work, but not at the wages the trucking industry pays.

Well, that in part explains the turnover: drivers jumping from one outfit to the next hoping things will get better. But usually, it's the same $hit, different colored truck. As far as becoming an independent, that's stellar advice with all these O/O's going belly-up and parking their rigs due to sky-high diesel prices. And I think we both can agree that lease-purchase is for suckers.

Performance pay is OK until the wheels stop rolling because there's no freight or something on the truck/trailer breaks down or you're sitting at a dock, in traffic, Blue Beacon, fuel island, PM, doing inspections, scaling loads, dropping/hooking trailers, etc, etc, etc. Than you ain't making jack.

If I run linehaul and get stuck in traffic or a storm, etc I call up dispatch and they put me on the clock. I simply note in my logs when and how long I was delayed and I get clock-time on my next paycheck. If I gotta go into a food warehouse and break down skids, I'm on the clock. Ditto for paperwork, waitng for a dock to open, waiting to check-in/out, fueling, dropping/hooking trailers, inspections, etc. Last year, a brake-can went out on my tractor and I had to call in roadrepair. Got paid 2 hours for my time just as if I was delivering freight. A week ago, I clocked in and they made me go down to the clinic for a randon whiz-quiz...got paid to take a pi$$. :lol:

All time spent on the job should be compensated. All time working past the 8th/40th hour should be overtime. Anything else is uncivilized...

Turnover Rate
 

The turnover rate is purposely caused by the companies in order to keep drivers at the low end of the pay scale.....thus higher profits for the company. Plain and simple.

And another thing...most people don't want to spend their summertime Saturdays at the Carney Point hook...one of the shittiest truckstops in fricking New Jersey...which if it ain't the asshole of the world, then it's a good farting distance close enough.

That's the problem right there. You're a lifestyle trucker and you just can't comprehend why someone would not want to hobo around for what the job pays.

How much money is worth spending nights, weekends, and holidays at the Carney Point hook away from family and friends? A helluva lot more than $40k if you ask me...

You speak the truth. Dead on.

Exactly why these outfits pay CPM! Biggest scam going. The CPM scam simply diverts losses from inefficient operations and bad business practices to the driver.

I'll never turn another wheel for CPM. No freebies, no way!!!!!

Werd.

[quote="belpre122"]Ya know, this kind of thinking just kills me...

How do you think the carrier gets paid? What do their rates depend on? Paid by the MILE. OTR rates are very competitive, and their rates are based on a calculated cost PER MILE to run the truck, plus a small amount of profit. How much profit? Not much. My company makes an average of $25 per load, after all the bills are paid. This includes paying the driver, fuel, wear and tear, insurance, depreciation, break downs, maintenence, etc.


So, with that low of a margin, how can the average carrier AFFORD to pay drivers by the hour, when production isn't optimal? If that were the case, with OTR rates being what they are, every time a traffic jam happened, the companies would lose a fortune...and eventually go out of business! Now, all the b!tching drivers complianing about thier paycheck are on unemployment.

Much better, right?

In the first quarter of this year, more than 1,000 carriers (more than 5 trucks) shut their doors for good. Poor fiscal management destroys companies, familes, and lives. You CAN'T ask for more than can be given.

On edit:

Seems that the vast majority of people, both in this industry and out, are concerned with only one thing. Money.

They are obsessed by it, being ruled by the absolute necessity to get the most money they can for the least amount of time put in to earn that money. Money this...money that...

I tell ya what...if you don't ENJOY what you are doing...it just isn't worth it. ESPECIALLY driving a truck. Don't be ruled by the dollar...much better to worry about finding a job you can be HAPPY doing...

[quote="TomB985"][quote="belpre122"] They will be out of business soon.



So the drivers should work for free to protect the companies fortune?


Its called business

Thats called working efficient

Survival of the fittest is healthy to the industry. Good riddance to those coolie carriers.

I respect your opinions Tom. I wish, however, that you would take a moment to review your post and see that it mostly affirms my position.

Irregular-route coolie OTR trucking is a thing of the past. Especially the long haul aspect. INEFFICIENCY INEFFICIENCY.

When a driver is paid by the hour he isn't necessarily paid what he is worth. Some could be underpaid for their effort while others are over paid. I think everyone should be paid on performance, regardless of what they do for a living. When you are paid to produce there is an incentive for you to find better ways to do your job. There is also an incentive to get the work done in a timely manner. One of my biggest complaints with unions is the lack of incentive for the worker. In fact, there seems to be an incentive to be unproductive. I have heard a lot of workers over the years complain about the company making all the money and not giving a fair share to the workers. That is why I like percentage pay. The worker can share in the profits based upon their efforts. I think we would be much better off, as a nation, if we got rid of the hourly pay. It doesn't necessarily compensate people for their efforts. When a company pays on percentage or piece work they can better forecast costs. When a worker is paid percentage or piece work then he has an incentive to work harder. If he wants to earn more money then all he has to do is produce more. The guy who wants to sit on his hands won't make as much because he is not as motivated to work. Of course, he will complain. The guy who produces will be too busy to complain. He is the guy who will likely wind up running the company one day. That is the way with mileage pay. The more miles a driver turns the bigger his paycheck. What could be more fair?

I like the deal the teachers have. Paid all holidays, storm days, sick days, summer vacation 10 weeks, meeting paid ,paid benefits, retirement. Weekends off, no nights, 8 hrs work.

They should be on production pay also. Any students don't pass the teacher shouldn't get paid....just a little incentive to motivate those teachers,,right Gman

[quote="TomB985"]

So, with that low of a margin, how can the average carrier AFFORD to pay drivers by the hour, when production isn't optimal? If that were the case, with OTR rates being what they are, every time a traffic jam happened, the companies would lose a fortune...and eventually go out of business! Now, all the b!tching drivers complianing about thier paycheck are on unemployment.quote]

There is such a thing as rotten Drivers and they deserve to be fired.

Beyond that, nearly every inefficiency I've encountered has been due to poor management, poor planning, poor dispatch or equipment deficiencies, all of which are beyond my control.

Weather? It's applied equally. Traffic jam? Ditto.

My favorite inefficiency: Night/weekend dispatchers with no access to planning screens and no authority to move an idle(ing) truck.
EXAMPLE: I can't begin to enumerate the times I have sat waiting for a plan only to learn the p/u was scheduled 10 hours ago and I've been sitting for 14. So, not only have I waited for the load information, now at the shipper, I get pushed to the back of the line because I didn't make the appointed hour.

My second favorite recurring inefficiency: Empty trailers. Everyone loves drop and hook, right? Except when there is no hook. Every single one of our trailers is equipped to talk to the Qualcomm. The only thing it knows how to say is "This is where I was dropped." My company knows where the closest trailer is but they don't know whether or not it's empty. Now it's up to me to go out and bird dog them . . on the house!

These problems occur for thousands of drivers, every single day. Read the threads on here. The biggest insult is that every one in the chain of command or our "Circle of Service" gets paid . . EXCEPT ME. Completely beyond my control and I'm the only one to suffer the economic consequences. Our employers enjoy a tremendous economic benefit, at our expense, under the existing rules.

The solution? Get out of trucking you whiner? No. The freight has to move and with all the whiners gone . .

The law has to change. CPM/PPM has to go. Some would like to see hourly pay, I would like to see a day rate. Pay me by the day for every day or part thereof that I'm out. Be good employers, be good managers and keep my truck moving. You'd better or it's going to cost you!

The law needs to be changed because it needs to be applied across the board as to effect all carriers equally. The truly efficient companies will prosper and the POS losers will go under. That's business, my friend.

Remember: The rising tide floats all boats. Say goodbye to artificially low freight rates and you shine a new light on the future and fortunes of owner operators.

I recall you took a nasty spill and banged up your leg pretty bad . . any chance you might have bumped your head, too?

Piece work is against the law in this Country in every single industry except one. Care to take a guess?

Piece work was outlawed and replaced with the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1936. Truck Drivers were exempted from the overtime provision of the Act. Piece work was eliminated because workers were forced to pay the consequences of ruthless and/or inefficient management. Truck Drivers were exempted due to the inability of management to exercise control over their far flung employees. The fear was that the unsupervisable Drivers would drive to the ends of the earth and never rest if it meant making more money. You know this business, you know the technology, you read the posts here and you know as well as anyone that is simply no longer the case.

Managers set up their systems and managers impliment the controls. When the systems and controls fail, who should pay?

I agree that rotten Drivers should be canned. I also think good Drivers should have incentives. But when a good Driver can't drive because some inept manager can't get his head out of his rearend, I don't think I should be forced to take the rap.

You run your own show and I applaud you for that, especially since it sounds like you run a pretty good show. At the end of the day, you get to say how the check gets distributed and you get to call your cut whatever you want . . CPM/PPM . . hourly rate . . daily rate . . whatever you call it, you likely feel sufficiently compensated and you probably feel as though you ran your day in the most efficient manner you can.

If you order repairs, they have to be paid for. You buy fuel, it has to be paid for. You say screw it, I'm going on vacation, it has to be paid for. If you have employees, they have to be paid NO MATTER HOW EFFICIENTLY OR INEFFICIENTLY they perform on your behalf. Unless they happen to be the folks that make everything move.

At the end of my day, I have to confront the fact that no matter how efficiently I ran my day, as often as not, my compensation is predicated on the efficiencies of others over whom I excersize no authority or control.

Today, I ran 660 beautiful and uneventful miles. Man! Talk about efficiency! I'm on the tail end of a great 2200+ mile load. I got a message yesterday that there's a conflict with the delivery appointment as in, it's scheduled for tomorrow morning and I can't legally be there until late tomorrow afternoon . . I'm on plan and on schedule but somebody else isn't and I haven't heard a word since. It's a beautiful summer weekend! My support network is . . indisposed.

The shipper has already been paid, the CSR, my managers and the dispatcher will all be paid . . the bill states the freight is prepaid so the company is covered. But something tells me that I'm going to be sitting while this gets sorted out and that may take some time . . my time. I'll be off the board; unpaid and unavailable for pay. Somebody else screwed this up and I'm going to pay. I don't own the company, G-man . . tell me why it's me who has to pay . .

I was kidding about the head bump. You're an asset to the board and I, for one, have never made fun of your avatar.

First of all it takes a different breed to want to do OTR. You have to enjoy it. Then the issue of pay has to be agreed on. As others have stated the problem with performance based pay is that so many other factors are out of the drivers control but yet he/she pays the price. I'm not your "partner" in business. You enjoy the reward and you suffer the risk. I'm your "employee" and all I can offer you is my time. For this I want compensation. If I wanted a risk/reward situation I would start my own business. I love my union job. I work hard and so do my coworkers. And when my work is done I go home and I dont think about work until its time to go back in. I enjoy my family time, my home, weekends off, holidays off, etc. etc. But thats just me. We're all free to do what ever type of work we want. Thats the beautiful thing about America!

Why not give it a try? Performance based pay sounds good to me! Maybe we would all be making more that way.

Thank you for reinforcing my earlier post . . AT LEAST MINIMUM WAGE!

How many times I have posted that on this and other forums?

The only obligation an employer has to a Driver is MINIMUM WAGE. If an investigator from the Department of Labor stops by to audit the books, he won't be interested in how many miles everyone is running and he won't be comparing it to the number of miles reported to have been driven. He is going to compare the hours REPORTED to the wages paid and as long as it adds up to at least minimum wage he'll be one happy investigator.

Using your example, I hire your company to tile my new kitchen. We agree on a time and a price. You go out to by the tile and tell your employee to meet at my house at the agreed upon hour. Your employee shows up on time. You, on the other hand, slipped on a banana peel, fell down an elevator shaft and the box of tiles lands on your head.

You show up 3 hours late, swathed in bandages and with no tiles. You apoligise to your employee and tell him to report back again tomorrow and we'll try it again. Your employee sticks out his hand and says "So sorry to hear of your misfortune and that will be $24.00, please." (WA state minimum is 8 something) You declare "My friend! You didn't lay tile one! He whips out his cellphone with the DOL on speed dial . . " You owe him the money. There is no such thing as piece work.

ok something i hear about otr trucking that i dont really understand and i hear the OTR bashers talk about it all the time.. Detention Pay and Layover Pay.. How in the hell can you make less for sitting in one spot all day then sitting in a spot for 15 to 20 hours?? i don't understand that... For example i think roehl's is $10 for every 30 min's after 2 hours but you get $70 dollars for staying at that spot for more than 24 hours?? doesn't make sense.. albeit i'm not a trucker yet and haven't been in the industry like you guys have i just don't understand that setup... some one care to explain.. i might have something wrong

Ah, to be young again. Hawk, one of the OTR types can best explain this burn job.

[quote="kc0iv"]Piece work has been doing well for many decades. When I worked piece work I was paid minimum wage and could earn more based upon my personal production. This was in the late 1960's. I ALWAYS earned more because I worked harder. There were some who only did the minimum so they only earned minimum wage.

[quote="GMAN"]
You should move to China and work cleaning shrimp...I think you could make millions. 1 penny a pound..lol

So what do you do when your company keeps turning down your max speed, but expects you to be able to do the same loads in the same time? My truck has been turned down from 67 mph to 65, and will probably be down to 63 (pedal)/61 (cruise) when I launch out next. Yeah, the MPG's will improve, but it will take longer to deliver the loads -- but not according to dispatch. We're "supposed" to take VC breaks every three hours. To keep up my mileage, I'm now doing those breaks every 5 hours if I can hold out that long.

Some of my employer's trucks have APU's, most of them don't, including mine. If I get sent down south (I'm a Wisconsin girl -- I like it cool), I have to keep the truck running 24/7 (if I'm in the truck) to keep the cab/sleeper comfortable enough to work and sleep in, which produces horrible MPG ratings. But I'm being judged on my MPG in direct competition with the privileged APU drivers who rarely, if ever, have to idle their trucks. So in reality, it can easily be that I am using LESS fuel to actually RUN the load than the APU driver, but then I get dinged for having to idle.

Detention pay. HA! Charade it is. You are not considered to be "detained" until you have sat for two hours beyond your appointment time (if there is one) or arrival at the customer if there isn't an appointment. You will then not collect a dime of detention pay until you have waited ANOTHER 30 minutes, which earns $5 (half hour detention) -- and even then, only if your DSR approves it.

I routinely sit for at least two to three hours before Lumpy, in all his many incarnations, even touches my cargo. It is not at all uncommon (though not exactly the rule) for me to sit for 6 hours waiting to be loaded or unloaded. I've collected "detention pay" less than five times in 8 months. But then, I'm a reefer driver, and they compensate me by paying an extra .02 CPM, so I have nothing to complain about. Uh huh. When I can, I take my ten at the customer while they're taking their sweet time unloading or loading me -- but it is rarely an efficient use of my time.

IMO, the biggest problem in this industry is customers who WASTE MY TIME. They can make me sit so long that I run-out my 14 hours, when I had plenty of time left when I arrived early/on-time, and then act like I'm a waste of parking space. A pox upon all their houses.

Kay!!! Where have you been all these years!! I think I am already in love!
XOXOXO
Belpre

In the tall grass, I imagine. lol

So what happened when your machine broke down? Did you stand around for a couple hours unpaid with your thumb up your a$$ while they fixed it? Did the foreman say "Hey GMAN, no work this morning so I need you to chill in the breakroom for 4 hours until the material comes in." Did you sleep in your car in the parking lot instead of going home and did you take showers at the YMCA? What about safety meetings? Did you attend those for donuts and stale coffee?

What's funny is that the average 16 year old wouldn't hang around a McDonalds 7 days a week and get paid per burger and think it was a good deal spending endless hours at the place while business was slow.

BTW, what's up with that creepy avatar you've got, anyway?

[quote="GMAN"]Once again, thank you for reinforcing my point. Minimum wage was the basis for your pay. If the widget welder standing next to you keels over and the production line is shut down, you are still being paid minimum wage, welding widgets or not. You may not be earning your best rate but you're still earning.

Now comes managements call. Do they pay to keep you onsite and ready to go? It's the only way they can expect you to stay. How much is that going to cost short term? They can't kick you off the clock but expect you to hang around. How much would it cost in the long term, especially if this kind of thing happens a lot? Would you be tempted to look elsewhere if they did?

I don't have the luxury of choice and I don't know if it's going to take 15 minutes or 15 hours to resolve the problem. Regardless, I am expected to "stay on the line" and be ready to roll just as soon as the Qualcomm beeps and we restart the line.

Where is the incentive for management to step it up and get me rolling? When my piece rate stalls, there is no fall back position. The pay clock stops. The cost of the truck doesn't change (unless I happen to be idling to stay comfortably unpaid.) The rest of my "team" is still on the clock. Why not pay me, too, moving or not? You'd see some real urgency on everyones part to get that truck moving.

The point of this thread is retention and attrition. How can any company expect to keep it's best people if we don't know from one day to the next if or how we're going to get paid? The only two things we know for certain are . .

1. If I screw up it's going to effect my pay.
2. If somebody else screws up it's going to effect my pay and not theirs.

The slant of this thread was leaning toward "unpredictable and unreliable drivers in search of greener pastures." I say balogna. Even those you don't like, the unwise, unkept, unwashed, vagabonds and job hoppers know when they're getting screwed. They reach their breaking point and, rather than shoot the place up, move along.

I love what I do. But I'm becoming a little annoyed myself with getting screwed without my permission. Give me predictable work, predictable pay, realistic incentives and I'll stay.

Open your mind . . just a little. The fact that this rotten system has been in place as long as it has does not mean it has to stay that way. Companies do what they do because the law says they can get away with it. It works for them. Who the heck can blame them?

The rules can be changed and can be changed equitably. To be fair to everyone, the law needs to change. The last day of the Driver subsidised trucking company will be the last day of artificially low freight rates.

I'm all for productivity pay. When it works, it works for everyone . . except when I'm the producer and I don't get to participate.

Actually, I think it would be a good idea to pay teachers on their productivity. Teachers complain about being underpaid, but when you consider all their off time, most bring in a pretty good salary. Part of the problem in our educational system is that students have been passed to a higher grade even though they didn't do their work or learn what they needed to go to the next level. Many colleges have had to institute remedial classes just to get these high school graduates to the level they need to be to do the college work. That is a failure of the public school system. The NEA (teachers union) has been a major contributor to this failure. It is very difficult to get rid of an incompetent teacher in some areas.


We had a good maintenance man on site. He kept the machines running pretty well. If they broke down, then the operator could go into the break room until it was repaired. Anytime it took longer to repair the operator could usually be assigned something else to do while it was repaired.



It grows on you with time.

Over a 10 hour period of constant running a 2 mph reduction in speed would only make a 20 mile difference, provided that you could maintain a constant maximum speed for all of those 10 hours. It isn't going to happen. You cannot keep a constant speed for that long. It will make little if any difference in your paycheck.

Unless you are sitting for a day or two in extreme weather (i.e.- hot or cold climate) you should not need to idle more than 30 percent of the time to be comfortable. Some carriers will offer bonuses for those who keep idle time down.

I agree that some shippers don't value our time. Unless the shipper is forced to pay for excess waiting times, some will continue to waste our time. For every hour we needlessly sit, we are losing money. Unfortunately, some carriers are unwilling to challenge shippers on the excess waiting time. Until they do, expect to continue to have to wait. This waiting is one reason many carriers have primarily gone to drop and hook.

But we are talking about a 6 MPH difference (67 cruise vs 61). And while it is true that I would not maintain full speed (actually I generally run at 63 anyway), turning down the max speed on the truck means that I will almost always be going slower than I would have driven otherwise. Since I'm starting out hills at a slower speed, I will climb that hill at a slower speed, and it is likely that I might need to downshift where I otherwise wouldn't have had to do so. Power that was once available to me is no longer available.

Over a 10 hour period, yes -- we're talking about 20 miles in your example. Let's cut that in half just 'cause. Now we're talking about 10 miles in 10 hours. In a 70 hour driving week, that's 70 miles that I could not drive. It may not affect deliveries (although it very well might), but it absolutely WILL mean that I have to work longer in order to perform the same amount of work. But it could just as easily mean some 200 or so miles that I could not drive, because I WILL drive my truck at 65 when pressed, and when safe and legal. But now I can't. Even if the speed limit is 70, I'm stuck at 61, 63 if I go to the pedal.

The fact of the matter is that I am a "runner." I want to keep my truck moving, and I have little use for truck stops. If I'm out for a duty cycle, I want my truck to be rolling and productive every minute possible. I don't make unnecessary stops and strive to be as efficient as possible. But those 10 miles in one day might be the difference between my getting to a customer or not. And since this is hypothetical and you will say that I should have planned my day better, I will hypothetically say that my day was driven as perfectly as possible and I made no mistakes whatsoever.

Regarding personal comfort and idle time:

I live in northern Wisconsin, and I'm used to cool weather and moderate humidity. It is physically impossible for me to acclimate to 85 degrees (or more) and 60% humidity (or more) in the course of a day or three. I will go where my dispatch sends me, but I will NOT try to sleep in a sweat box. For another person to arbitrarily state that I only need to idle my truck a certain percentage of time is ludicrous at best, insulting at worst. I idle as necessary to maintain a comfortable living and working environment -- no more, no less.

I don't govern my trucks. If I want to run at 75 or 85 mph I could do it. I don't because of fuel costs. A truck burns much more fuel at 75 than at 65. I agree that running at a slower top speed can cause you to gear down more than if you could start your pull at a higher speed. More carriers are slowing down their trucks to save money on fuel costs. A carrier who has 1,000 trucks who can increase their fuel costs by as little as 1/4 mpg can save a lot of money over the course of a year.

I understand that you are accustomed to a cooler climate. I don't think any carrier wants their drivers to be uncomfortable. It is in their best interest to see that their drivers are comfortable so that they can get their rest. I have never told my drivers to not idle more than a certain amount of time. There should still be few times where a driver should need to idle (on average) more than about 30%. I think it is best to look at idling on a monthly or quarterly basis. There may be times when idle time is less than 20%. On the other hand, idle time could exceed 30% during warmer or cooler times of year. However, on average drivers should not need to idle more than 30%. I base this on my personal experience. I don't idle my truck unless I need to do so for my personal comfort. I would expect the same thing from my drivers. I don't expect them to turn the truck off if they are going to be uncomfortable.

Their are some drivers who will idle their trucks continually, whether they are in the truck or not. I have seen them idle trucks for hours while they are in the truck stop.

By the way, when I started driving most trucks didn't have air conditioning. If we wanted to be cooler we rolled down the window. Some had fans above the windshield or on the dash. At that time, most companies recommended we keep trucks idling almost all the time. :wink: