Trucker's math.

2008 - 1971 = 37 years

37 years is almost 40 years.

More trucker's math.

$0.10 - $0.14 per mile X 3 = $0.30 - $0.42 per mile. That is certainly not the average. $0.30 is near the top. It definitely hasn't "more than tripled".

Thanks for clearing things up REV.. :wink:

I don't see how anyone could ever disagree with the Reverend. :wink:

As I've said on countless occasions, I know everything. :rock:

Ever hear of myopia, Tom?

Used in a sentence:

"Tom and GMAN have an extremely myopic take on the current state of the trucking industry. They both suffer from myopia."

Looks like the good reverand knows the score!

Hell in 1971, the minimum wage was around $1.45/hr. The 2008 minimum wage in most states has been bumped up to about $7.50/hr. So a guy flipping burgers is making nearly 5X the wages he did over 37 years. And a guy driving truck OTR is making 3X?!?!?

WTF? :shock:

Oh that's right, I almost forgot. McDonald's won't work you 80-100 hours per week. :roll:

Or require you to "sleep in a box for no money.

I'd take the Mickey's deal anytime over irregular-route coolie carrier OTR trucking!

Also - " Not see family or friends for weeks at a time"

So now you want a carrier to pay you to sleep? :roll:


By the way Rev, you could buy gas at some discount self service gas stations for around $0.25/gallon. We sold regular for $0.32/gallon and premium for $0.36/gallon for full service. I paid $0.45/gallon for gas in California during the early 1970's.

The cost of living was much less than today. People actually expected to work for what they had. Most people had little debt.

That'd be a big negatory G.

I do, however, expect to be appropriately compensated for the willingness to do so on behalf of the carrier's best interest.

Lifestyle trucker?

This is one of the big disconnects.

Having one or a hundred trucks, trailers and Drivers in place and ready to roll is a strong selling point any way you look at it. Whether I'm the only truck in town chasing the only load in town or it's my company bidding a big contract, my availability has real value. My company gets a lot of business on that basis and it's not all cheap freight.

Unfortunately, the rates are based on the truck and trailer being there and the fact that I'm not being paid. Not for waiting, not for fueling, not for fixing, not for cleaning, not for . . you name it. My time is exempted from the equation but it's not because my employers are all rotten SOB's. It is because Federal law allows it, so long as I'm being paid minimum wage (at least) for all the hours I report to be working. Unless and until that law is changed, what carrier is going to step up and say "it really isn't fair and we should be paying these guys"?

The exception is the State of Washington and that's why I'm so thrilled to see that lawsuit. Washington State requires ALL employers to pay time and a half after forty, with most salaried employees excepted. If it is successful, I expect to see a big push to get the State to go after all the other carriers as opposed to the State sitting back and waiting for more Drivers to sue.

You can bet that every carrier based out of or with a significant amount of business in, out or within Washington State are taking a real serious look at this.

They all gonna bail? I don't think so. They're going to stay and pay. Then comes Oregon and then comes Idaho . . and, ultimately, the Feds . . YAAAAHOOOOOOOO!

GMAN dont take this too personally because I dont for one minute think you alone created the current OTR environment but you do seem to want to defend it. That being said, the main reason for turnover in the industry is because people wont do it for what companies are willing to pay. OTR is a hard job, some would say it plain sucks. Its real simple, if the job paid enough people would do it, but apparently it doesnt. For the right amount of money people would be willing to put up with the BS that goes with the job. Either decrease the amount of BS and abuse of the driver's time or increase the money. Real simple. You say that drivers expect too much and companies dont screen well enough. I say bull! People aren't stupid. When the job is worth it to them they'll do it. I've been at my current job almost two years and I'm still 13th out of 14. No one quits. Why? Because they make damn good money that's why! Our top driver makes 90k a year, gets 4 weeks vacation, and goes home every day. Thats the main reason for turnover, too much BS and not enough money. Fix one or the other and turnover goes down! :wink:

DDCavi


So why is it weird to get paid for working? and paid more for excessive hours ?

Exactly Snowman! Until either the bullshit goes away (never happen). Or the pay is brought to an acceptable level, the industry will continue in it's current job-hopping, drifter/hobo attracting march.

Regarding turnover. My company had 0%, again ZERO PERCENT turnover last year. Not one driver left.

It really is that plain and simple.

Wake up and smell the coffee GMAN. You can recover from myopia. :wink:

I am glad that you aren't blaming me for the current otr environment. :wink:

I agree that there are things which need to be changed. Money may attract people to a job, however they will not stay with any carrier if money is the only consideration.

Well G, they aren't staying at any of the carriers right now. Money would be a great first step in the right direction.

100% wrong about that GMAN. No need to muddy things up here G.

If the money is right, they will stay. Good money takes the sting out of all the crap that you have to deal with. The 'good money' concept works in many other industries. Why not trucking? I'm even going to answer that one..........

COOLIE CARRIERS

I wish you would leave me OUT of this discussion, Belpre!! I am NOT responsible for all the problems in this industry!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

:wink:

Hobo

I'll remember that from now on Golf. :lol: :wink:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You crack me up, Evinrude!! :wink:

Not W-E-I-R-D............ WERD!


:lol: :lol:

Let me ask you a couple questions GMAN, and I'm not trying to be sarcastic. When you started back in the day was turnover as high as it is now and did companies need recruiters?

When you think about it, what other blue collar industry needs recruiters? If the answers are no and no then it has to make you wonder.

Wage comparisons
 

There are other industries that draw from the same blue collar male pool that require you to be away for 2-3+ weeks like oil rigs and remote construction.

They pay significantly better than OTR. reading the WSJ the other day the starting wage for a greenhorn in oilfield labor in W Texas right now is $20/hr.

Money is probably the most important consideration for me. But I also want good health insurance and to be treated nicely. I'd probably pass on a job even if it paid a couple bucks more if magangment at that place was a jackhole. There are unquantifiable things that are worth giving up a few dollars on the hour. I want to live a long life and not die early of stress because the company is pushing drivers to cut corners, treating drivers like livestock, and not giving good benefits.

Most people probably spend the majority of their time at work. Why not have it be a good environment? It does not cost the company anything to set a good example and treat drivers with respect, honesty, and kindness.

I have done some research on this. People will not stay with a company strictly for the money (not just trucking). There have to be other considerations. If a worker has a high income and poor working conditions they are not going to stay with that company for very long. If the pay is high enough they may stick around for a longer period than a low paying job with poor working conditions. I have also seen people stay with a carrier where they are treated well even though the pay was less than they could command at another company.

Trucking as always had turnover. I think that it is the nature of the business. However, I don't think it was as great then as now. I started with a smaller company. I didn't see much turnover with drivers. My company didn't have anyone specifically assigned to recruit. I am sure some of the larger carriers were more active in their recruiting. The entire industry was somewhat different back then. We had some larger carriers but not like the mega carrier we see today. I know people in health-care who constantly need to recruit personnel, and these people are highly paid. There is quite a bit of movement within companies, although I don't think it is as great as trucking.

One major difference 30 years ago compared to today is that rates were regulated and if you look at rates of recent years, we did much better back then. Freight rates were deregulated in the 1980's. Since then increased competition has kept rates down and driver pay has also suffered. Most trucking companies back then were run by the founder who was usually a driver himself. That made a major difference. Many of the large carrier today are run by people who have never driven a truck. The work ethic is also different today. I believe we had a stronger work ethic 30 years ago.

As to your question about recruiters. Most any business of any size will need to recruit personnel. The larger the company the greater the need.

Correction: OTR has high turnover. At my outfit, we just put 2 men on...last time we hired was 2.5 years ago.

To put that in perspective: in 2.5 years, the typical coolie outfit has burned through it's entire fleet of drivers more than TWICE!!!

It's because there's an actual SHORTAGE...meaning, they simply can't find people with the right skills, education, and experience. There is no shortage in OTR trucking - just a lack of people willing to live on the job for fast-food money.

I can think of a thousand examples and you are absolutely right. Today at a SUBWAY, I had to all but go back there and make the sandwich myself.

OTR Trucking is no different. Pay per mile can be dressed up to look pretty good to a prospective Driver, as it did me. I would need to put forth a considerable effort in order to make any money. I have a great work ethic and it didn't bother me. But you're right, the majority don't make it, they go away and we never hear from them again for any number of reasons.

It didn't take long for me to realize that I love driving. In order to make any money I would need to figure out the system and learn to work with it. That was over four years ago. I'm still driving because I still love it. In fact, I really love it. The more miles I drive, the more I get to see and experience and I kick myself in the ass for not taking it up sooner.

I love it so much I go out of my way to learn all that I can about it. You complain about Drivers hanging out in the video lounge, etc. Me? Today, I logged 11 in the seat and now I'm out here online learning everything I can about the business because I'm going to be around for awhile.

I do my homework. I don't speculate; I learn.

I know why Drivers aren't paid overtime.

I know why my company will pay $35 for a tractor wash but they won't pay me to wash it.

I know how and why my company and both ends of the load exploit pay per mile.

I know what efficiency means in order to be succesfull.

I know how and why the incredible majority of inefficiencies are absorbed by pay per mile Drivers.

I know why 85% of the people who get into this business wake up one morning with a sore head and say "this sucks".

I know the trucking business is "confronted with many challenges" and, from my perspective, foremost among them is Driver compensation . . and . .

I know the freight will be moved.

ClassB. What you have described above are textbook coolie carrier operations. Sadly, that is just a small sampling. Most people would simply not believe and/or not be able to comprehend what these companies put these drivers through. It only gets worse. Much worse. Despicable comes to mind. Shameful...................

That and Healthcare is technically white collar above the LPN level. The lower jobs require less training and the pay is fairly low to boot. If a hospital/nursing home can't recruit people in those positions when literally dozens "graduate" (more like certify) from every vo-tech and comm. college around the country every semester then they are not PAYING enough or working conditions stink. Now as far as RN's go there has been a severe shortage of personnel in that area due to the reason lebron mentioned.

According to the ATA there is a driver shortage. We have a problem for finding people for the same reasons you listed above for health-care. I think that there is a shortage of people who are willing to work. I don't know of any fast food company where you can make $50,000/yr. Most fast food managers don't make that much money. It is easy to sit back and blame the company. Turnover costs money. It costs the carrier in recruitment costs and it costs drivers in somewhat lower pay due to the lost revenue. I think one problem we have is that some people want to start out at top pay without any skills or experience. The longer you stay in this business the higher pay you should be able to expect. When you switch jobs often you are not doing yourself any favors. It makes you appear to be unreliable and unwilling to work through problems. That doesn't look good to any employer, whether it in trucking or another industry. There are some carriers who seem to do a decent job in retaining drivers. ALL carriers have a more than desired turnover rate. There are some ways in which you can get driver pay up. Stick with your carrier for at least a year or two. That will reduce their turnover costs and give you an opportunity to hone your skills. Every time you change jobs you will lose 1-2 weeks income or more. Don't steal from your company. This is wide spread in the industry. Drivers steal fuel, accessories and equipment from their carriers. This also costs carriers money. If you see or know of a driver who is stealing from their carrier, call the company or police and turn them in. There is only so much money to go around. In truth, carriers only keep a small percentage of the money they turn for profit. When drivers fail to do their job, abandon their equipment, steal fuel or other items from the company they are lowering YOUR pay. These carriers must offset these costs in some manner.

Much of the problems that drivers have with their carrier are brought on by the drivers themselves. I didn't say "ALL" but much of the problems I hear drivers complain about could be alleviated by the driver. All too often a driver will leave a carrier on a whim because he didn't get his way about something. Rather than trying to work through a problem he will leave.

By the way, you keep talking about driver pay being too low. I would be interested in knowing what you think a carrier should pay you.

I just did a search, and every article about the ATA claiming a driver shortage was from 2005. Do you have access to some more recent documents where they are claiming a shortage?

My turnover rate is 0. I have, however, considered firing myself.

Just like the ghetto attracts a certain type of person to live there, OTR trucking attracts a certain type of person to do the job. If the industry wants to change that, they need to change the working environment and make the job harder to get into. If every Tom, Dick, and Harry couldn't just walk in off the street into a training company, then those companies wouldn't have to deal with those type of people anymore. They would, however, have to raise the working environment and compensation package to attract the elite group they are striving to get. That isn't likely to happen, though, because it would cost the carriers more money than they pay out due to turnover.

All the problems you listed though are caused by the carriers. If a carrier is actively seeking the type of person who would steal, fail to do their job, abandon their equipement, and quit, they certainly can't whine and complain that those things happen.

Rev you basically said what I was thinking and wouldnt say because I didnt want to offend anyone. :lol:
They set the wages where they can get people just below what they really need to do the job properly.
You get what you pay for.
Obviously this doesnt apply to all drivers and certainly no one on CAD!

(I debated a long time before hitting the submit button on this one!)

How can you say that GMAN after I just told you that my carrier had a 0% turnover rate? LeBron advised that his company added a couple of drivers. Want to try again? Let me do it for you.

ALL coolie carriers have a more than desired turnover rate.

That's better.

It would never happen but for me to do OTR i would have to make atlest 85,000. For all the hours and time you put in.

When i worked on tug boats (for 2 months) Off the street if i stuck with it i would make around 45k 1st year to work 6 months out of the year. 7 days on/ 7 days off. After so many hours at sea they bump you up to a able seaman and you can make 55k-60k for the samething. All food was paid for by the tugboat. It didnt cost you a dime. Only worked 12hrs a day. About 6 of them where in the boat looking at TV.

A captain made over 100k for 6 months. So to work all year long at OTR coolie trucking i would need atlest 85k.

I know Coolie OTR trucking and Tugboats are two diff. things but they both make you be away from home.

Correct Mackman. How anyone could ever disagree with you is way beyond me!

I have 2 brothers that are towboat captains on the Ohio River. They both earn in the area of $100,000 annually. 6 months a year. They wouldn't have it any other way. Great benefits, retirement etc.

Compare that to the coolie carrier, hobo servant. Home a couple of days a year. Treated like garbage. Minimal benefits. Work 80-100, log 70, paid for 50. Scammed for CPM pay. Sleep in a box for no money, etc.

I don't know why they do it.

lets do some numbers Gman. I say min wage is around 7.50/hr. OT after 40.

7.50x40= $296.00
11.25x30= $337.00

296+337= $633.00 a week gross.

633 x 52 weeks = 32,916

So a min wage fast food worker that puts in the same hours as a coolie OTR driver will gross 32,916.

I think my numbers are right but if they are not i know the all mighty REV will be by to let me know about it.

That has to be one of the most irresponsible, biased and uninformed statements that I have ever seen on CAD.

GMAN, there is really no need for me to question your credibility. You are handling that quite well for yourself.

Drivers are professionals and should be paid enough to live a comfortable life. A professional driver is not just another person on the road. We are responsible for our saftey, the saftey of everyone around us, and the cargo or people transported.

A person flipping hamburgers at McDonalds isn't responsible for a million dollars in cargo.

Very good point.Sad point,but true none the less.