Crosses along the highways
 

I know that SOME of you think I'm some kind of bleeding heart Liberal, who would stand behind everything the ACLU stood for. But, that is NOT true!

I appreciate SOME of what they've done for equality in America, but I deplore some of their blatantly Anti-Christian stances.

Others of you might ALSO believe that I have a "Christian" soul.... and you may be right. My personal relationship/beliefs are not easy to understand.... nor explain.

But, I am BOTHERED by the MANY displays of crosses, with flowers and sometimes flags, little stones and stuffed puppydogs that I see around nearly EVERY curve in the highways/interstates that I travel every day!

Some on the shoulder.... others in the median. They are EVERYWHERE, and each one seems to be intent on "outdoing" the last! Bigger crosses.... bigger flowers or wreaths....bigger flags! :roll:

On ONE basic level.... I'm not sure I want to be REMINDED of what can happen to me every mile or so. And on the other hand....

I sincerely believe that the Separation of Church and State "concept/laws/whatever" SHOULD, in fact, make it illegal for such "displays" to be located on the "easement" or "right of ways" of public highways!

I have NO problems with the big crosses (sometimes a triple display) that are put on PRIVATE land that borders the highways..... but, I JUST can't get over what I feel is a Constitutional "invasion" of PUBLIC displays of religious symbols on FEDERAL or STATE land!

Please.... don't anyone try to argue the fact that the medians and shoulders of Interstate highways are NOT part of the government/public land. You ALL know they ARE!

But, am I missing something?? WHY has the ACLU not questioned this practice? HOW can this be "sanctioned?"

Has my heart grown too cold? Is my soul too black? Am I the ONLY one who thinks this is not RIGHT?

For those of you who don't drive OTR, and may not see this everyday, I'm telling you.... it's approaching epidemic levels! Two years ago, I saw maybe 10 per trip. Today, I would lose count after 200!!

I don't expect this thread to go on for 10 pages.... but, please.... give me some responses!

Thanks! Hobo

Your gripe wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that this kind of thing is a tradition that has a strong following among Latin American immigrants would it?

Re: Crosses along the highways
 

You're joking right? Surely you can't be that much of an ass...

That's a good question, Packrat! (though a loaded one!) I have given that some thought. I was married to a Mexican American, and I got along with her family and "people" very well (except the Mother-in-law!) :lol:

And, yes.... I can tell the difference between the "hispanic" tributes and the others, but I don't think that's it! Years ago, I passed by the shrine on the way up La Veta Pass in Colorado. I didn't object to it, and in fact, felt my heartstrings being pulled. Now, I actually LOOK for it!

BTW, two of my best friends were Latino, as well. I've spent time with ALL their families both here and abroad! I am NOT "mexiphobic" as Fozzy says. Some of my best and favorite years were with my hispanic family and friends in southern Colorado!

Many of the crosses I see are very "plain." (Probably Lutherans! :lol: )

It doesn't really matter if they have a little rock garden in front of them, or just a cross. I just don't feel comfortable about seeing them there!

Funny thing is (concerning the ACLU,) I didn't really have a problem with the 10 Commandments on the steps of courthouses, and other such "cases." It's just these dang crosses on the easeway! :?

But, I appreciate your insinuation! :lol: :lol:

I simply view crosses as little road signs warning me that that particular area might be hazardous as a driver I appreciate being warned. Crosses are not considered so much as a religious symbol anymore in the context of their use. I have many aethist friends as well as other friends of other cultures who use crosses for gravemarkers in the context of use it is not a christian symbol but a recognizable symbol of respect. Perhaps you are being a little too sensitive about the shape after all it is just a shape like a stop sign or a road flare. But then again maybe you view the shape of a flare to be an offensive misuse of a triangle.

Re: Crosses along the highways
 

Well... yeah.... I guess I CAN.... if that's what you think of it! :lol:

I suppose that makes TWO of us, eh? :wink:

But, hey!..... thanks for your insightful response! :roll: :lol:

There is a local guy here that has tried repeatedly to get our city to remove the 3 crosses logo from the city seal because it violated the separation of church and state.

The seal is 3 crosses within a blazing sun. The seal was designed in 1948 t be premiered for the city's centennial celebration in 1949.
http://scienceblogs.com/corpuscallos...CrucesLogo.jpg

The ACLU has refused to help him with this case because the NM chapter acknowledges that the three crosses are historical, not religious in nature. While the exact origin is in dispute, most stories seem to follow along a similar theme, that a group of Spanish travelers heading to Santa Fe from El Paso Del Norte (now Cd. Juarez) were attacked and killed by Apache raiders. The dead were buried and the scene marked by crosses. When the Spanish later started settling in this area, they named the area" "El Pueblo del Jardín de Las Cruces" (The Village of the Garden of the Crosses). It was later shortened to Las Cruces when the town was officially founded in 1849.

The gentleman in question has filed the lawsuit on his own behalf, as well as a lawsuit against the public schools for a sculpture that used the 3 cross symbol and against the NMDOT, which put the 3 cross design on the new I-25/US70 interchange. The lawsuit against the school was later dismissed because it was discovered that he lived outside of the Las Cruces school district and thusly had no standing to file a lawsuit on behalf of his daughter (who was actually in the legal custody of her mother/ the parents were divorced) and Gov. Bill Richardson personally ordered the NMDOT to not remove the symbol after the DOT administrators considered removing it in order to avoid a lawsuit. That lawsuit was dismissed as well.

His lawsuits are more of an attention getting method for his little "atheist rights" group which is comprised of about 2-3 members, depending on who you talk to.

Hmm... maybe going a bit overboard on this one, don't ya think? I'm also very liberal and not Christian in the least, but I don't see anything wrong with people marking the sites of where their loved ones died along the highway. I suppose many of them are Christian so... therefore, crosses. And I'd think it very callous for the state DOT's to remove them.

I strongly believe in the separation of church and state, but I'm not buying your argument on this one. :roll:

I seem to recall that it was decided that this wasn't a violation of the separation of church and state because it was private individuals putting up the crosses, not the state and it fell under the same category as students holding their own prayer meetings on school property or at intramural activities. The only legal violations may be state specific laws against placing private "signs and memorials" on state right of ways.

The regulations vary from state to state. They're more restrictive in Colorado, Massachussets and Wisconsin, where the law specifically prohibits them. Other states don't seem to take a position. Other states allow a family to have a state maintained sign placed at the scene of a fatality accident, usually restricted to DWI accidents. Colorado changed their law to allow CDOT maintained signs placed at all accident scenes with fatalities that took place after May 1, 2004. The families pay the cost of the sign installation and it's maintained as any other road sign by the DOT.

FWIW, the Spanish name for these memorials is Descansos, which literally means "place of rest"

I really don't see why you have a problem with this.The family and friends Leaving flowers or crosses or whatever where there families/friends died.It's a sign of respect and grief.

Thanks for your insight and response, Malaekat. (I know I am not a favorite of yours.) About how you like being "warned"... I guess I can see that. Perhaps, it is that (although I don't run a dedicated route,) I take these same interstates to the West Coast every other week or so. I am not a stranger to these roads, or vice versa. I KNOW this curve or that is dangerous, and each week I see ANOTHER cross on some of those curves! And each one seems to try to OUTDO the other! They are not gravemarkers, as the dead are not buried there, they are Memorials. I can tell by the sizes of the crosses, exactly how many children died, and whether the mother died along with the father! As for shapes, some of them are Byzantine in nature ( I guess those are orthodox Catholic or something ) and some are Jewish. Others are plain, as I said. Some have flags waving off of them, as if to say, THIS guy was patriotic, and the rest of you weren't! :?

I've seen rows and rows of small plain white crosses in National Cemeteries, and I can hardly keep from crying! I hope someday to be buried in a National Cemetery with but a simple white cross, and I barely know if I deserve it!

But, if I die on some dangerous curve on a public highway, I DON'T want or expect to be "memorialized" there! I believe memorials are for the great people of our society. But, it seems that EVER since Columbine, this nation has gone crazy with memorials to every tragedy, no matter how simple or inconsequential.

And how SAD it is, that SOME of these "roadside memorials" often fall into disarray, when those who cared enough to plant them, move on with their lives, and no longer maintain them. So, NOW.... I'm not only faced with a reminder of a death, but ALSO of a life long forgotten!

I don't really KNOW what motivates my distaste of these memorials. Is it Constitutional correctness? Moral Majority paranoia? A sense of my own mortality? Or unwanted episodes of sympathy? If I KNEW the answer.... I wouldn't have asked the question!

I do NOT believe it is antiSemitism (I have many Jewish friends as well,) or anti Hispanic bigotry. I may be a bit Agnostic, but I don't believe I'm atheistic.... or at least not militantly so! :lol:

I hope others will respond with opinions OR castigations! I have truely been searching for the answer to this for months now. It took me that long to decide to make this thread! I no longer know if I am bothered MORE by the crosses.... or by my reaction to them!

It is not easy for me to ask for help.

Thanks,

Hobo

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.



There is no such thing as separation of church and state. The state cannot legally prohibit those who wish to express their religious beliefs. Unfortunately, the ACLU and others have pounded into our heads that there is a constitutional separation of church and state until some actually believe it. The amendment prohibits the state or government from establishing a state religion, such as in some of the Islamic states like Iran.

I don't have a problem with people putting crosses up on public highways where they have lost loved ones. After all, the government is or should be made up of us, the citizens of the U.S. The land on which those roadways were built was taken constitutionally by using eminent domain. It was the people who owned that property before the government took it. Having crosses on the highway should remind us that we need to be careful. I think it can give solace to those who place them.

Well... I'm not really asking anyone to BUY my argument! And perhaps it IS over the top, but I didn't intend it to be so! I was only asking for opinions and insight, and you have given me a GOOD one! Thanks!

VERY good points and information, Packrat! I hadn't heard about this. (the roadside cross decision.) I can SEE where it is similar to the decision to allow prayer meetings on school grounds, as long as they weren't LED by, or IMPOSED by school officials. That WAS a "compromise" that allowed state property to be used for religious purposes as long as it was not "mandated" or supported by the school system. I agree that it would not be fair to DISCRIMINATE against religious groups, in favor of non-religious, when EACH pay the same taxes for the property! But, I am STILL uncomfortable with THIS "display." (perhaps, your info will help me get over it.)

I also want to thank you for introducing me to the word Descansos! I am always eager to learn MORE of any foreign language! Of course, I have to point out that this word is not proper... as this roadside spot is NOT the "place of rest" for these who have passed on! I'm pretty sure they have found a place of rest in a cemetery somewhere, but I'm pretty sure that I am the ONLY one who cares that something was lost in translation!! :lol:

{{ Unless, of course, they think that the SPIRIT remains "at rest" where the bodied died! }} :shock: :shock:

Thanks again!

Well I agree with GMan on the understanding of the seperation of church and state..

But that being said I agree with Hobo on the crosses and other things on the side of the road..I think it is a distraction, and could cause an accident No matter what Religion, or ethnic background..

We really should ask the Native Americans what they think of land that was "private", "domained", "given".

Back to the subject. I think the crosses or whatever marker, is fine and at the very worst it will remind you that someone died here and to be careful.

Interesting tidbit about church and state. I grew up in Simi Valley, CA. On a prominent hilltop there is a large cross that goes back at least a hundred years or more. The missionaries placed it as a marker for others to find while travelling in between the various missions.

The land the cross sat on eventually belonged to private owners. When those owners were looking to sell the land to developers approx 10 years ago, the Simi Valley Parks Dept bought the land. The reason they bought it was because the Cross Hill overlooked the Ronald Reagan Library, and thus wanted the hill to remain free of development.

Here's where the lunacy starts. Some self described atheist filed a lawsuit against the City of Simi Valley. He stated that the cross is a religious symbol affiliated with mainstream religion. So he sued the city and in his lawsuit he wanted the cross to be taken down. Some people have too much time on their hands.

So the city beat him at his own game and turned the property over to the Nature Conservancy, "all in the name of conservation."

Lots of things get lost in the literal translation between English and Spanish. Some things that sound very nice in Spanish don't quite have the same ring to it in English. A friend of ours who is a musician was singing a song called "Boracherra" which means "Drunken woman". He translated some of the lyrics into English. For example: "With your ass up in the air you are a very good friend of mine" sounds much better in Spanish. :lol:

The tradition of descansos started in Latin America. Being predominately Catholic, they go all out to memorialize the dead. There is a large cemetary in Ciudad Lerdo (which is the Mexican sister city of Las Cruces) that is a tourist attraction because of some of the beautiful marble architecture of some of the tombs. Even pauper graves get a marble headstone. There are many marble quarries in the that area and marble is dirt cheap. My dad got 3 new marble grave stones made for my grandparents and aunt's graves at a marble memorial shop for less than $100. The same kind of stone here in the US would probably have cost twice that for each stone.

Those things were f---ing heavy, but they sure smoothed out the ride in the big Chevy Express 3500 van we took down there. :lol:

I've always thought of them as a way for the family to grieve, nothing more, nothing less.

You want a warning memorial...the most eye-opening one I ever saw was a good decade ago on I-77 in Virginia or West Virginia...not sure where on the interstate exactly.

Anyway, in the median, there was a car. It was absolutely totalled....looked like it had rolled many times at a high rate of speed. There was a big sign that said something like "my son got drunk and this is what happened. RIP". It was pretty sobering. I believe it was up for most of the summer as I saw it a few times on my way to and from Ohio from North Carolina.

As far as the memorial crosses and such, I don't necessarily have a problem with them but I do agree with Hobo about his statement when they are forgotten and left to the elements. My thoughts are that if you care enough to set up a roadside memorial to an accident victim, then care enough to take it down when you can no longer maintain it.

There is a road in western Maryland - can't think of the road number or the name of the town it goes through. Anyway, at the base of this mountain is a Wyerhauser plant.

The hill going down has a 10 mph limit for trucks. There are 2 or 3 locations for trucks to stop and check their brakes. Along this hill are signs about every 1/2 mile stating that if you lose your brakes, put the vehicle into the ditch immediately.

When you get to the bottom, you understand why. On one side of the road is a grade school. About 1/4 mile from the school is a 90 degree left turn. If you don't make this turn, well, you get to see the geology of Maryland up close as there is a solid rock cliff about 200 feet high to stop you. There are probably over 20 crosses painted on this cliff, indicating how many people (mainly truckers) who have died in that turn.

Now, if you have a problem with that (crosses painted as a memorial to someone killed on a road) you need to take a serious look at yourself, because you're obviosly not worth a f*ck in my book.

On an I-65 exit in Mobile AL, is an extremely wrecked car that is set on the grassy median by the city with a large sign stating "DON'T DRINK & DRIVE". Everytime I pass that area, there is a different car there but the sign remains the same. ...A powerful reminder of the consequences of drinking and driving.

Regarding crosses....to me, its a sad and poignant reminder of the danger that lurks just one bad decision away. It does not bother me that they are there and it might pass on a sense of peace to the relatives of whoever died there. Perhaps there should be a length of time that they are allowed to be there....for example, 5 or 10 yrs then they are removed.

There used to be one on I 97 in Maryland that was in the grassy median, they kept it up nicely for a long time with flowers on the ground surrounding a white cross that stood about three or four feet tall. Around the cross sometimes they would drape a wreath of flowers, and on top they placed the guys motorcycle helmet, or a motorcycle helmet. Now, the ironic part was the guys nickname that they painted across the front of the cross horizontally in black letters and it said "Bump"

I don't mind the crosses, you shouldn't leave them unkept though.

I have a problem with roadside crosses, thats when people do stop to care or pay there respects. That crash that killed there loved one many times happened there for a reason such as a bad curve. When they stop to visit the site they really need to consider that fact and chose there parking spot carefully. I for one don't want to have to add to there sorrow, I had one very close call on a small road in Ga.

I am going to quote myself, to expound..

Malaki86 said the below
Something like this I could understand.. And some of the others that have posted..
Where I come from it is flat, and not alot of curves.. I had to think back to when I drove, so on some occasion yes I guess it could be alright..

I don't know about other states, but in Wisconsin, they are illegal, and are sometimes removed because of this (but usually aren't). There was a HUGE one south of Sheboygan a few years ago when there was an enormous pileup in the fog, and many people died. The display that came up afterwards was very large, and very distracting.

IMO, if a family wants to use something like this to help their grieving process, then let them. If it makes even one person pay attention a little bit more to what they are doing, then it served its purpose.

personally

other than a reminder that this area can be dangerous, why do people put these things there?

i thought graveyards were where we remember our dead, not the place where they died

seems very morbid to me

so if i died in a bus, do we put a cross in the seat?

i dont know when this started, it may have been a good shock therapy for drivers education in high school but as the original poster said, its all over the place now

and a cross is religious, whether the person puts it there for religion or just out of tradition, its still a religious symbol

For crying out loud golfhobo....

You're starting to sound like a truck driver.

Malakai said:

What denomination (or should I say sect) do YOU belong to? I want to be able to send them my thanks for sending their BEST ambassador of Christ's love to our little corner of the world!

For what it's worth.... I don't think the PAINTED crosses on a rock wall would bother me as much. But, like someone said about dying on a bus.... why don't we have little crosses (descansos) in several classrooms and schoolyards throughout the country? And why not at nearly every intersection in any city?

And the bigger we make them, the MORE poetry and such we can write on them.... so that someone trying to READ them, can get HIMSELF or others KILLED?

As for the grieving process: I was brought up to believe we should do our grieving in private, or with close friends and relatives. I didn't come to "your" funeral because I didn't KNOW you, (although I once spent several hours sitting by the grave of a young girl who committed suicide in my H.S. and I never knew HER, either.) I'm sorry, but I just don't NEED your grief shoved in my face all day long.

I appreciate all the answers given on this thread, I'm leaving out again today, and will give it much thought as I pass all the "memorials." That is... if I can quit thinking about WHY the family died there.... cellphone call? text messaging? slapping the kids in the backseat? too fast for conditions? DUI? showing off?

...trucker lost in his own thoughts obsessing over nothing?

I can see it now...20 years ftom now families all over the country will be wondering who removed the little cross they placed where they one day lost a loved one along the roadway.

...meanwhile, in a small storage shed somewhere in NC....

Here's an interesting "read" on Descansos. Besides the obvious bias toward any American who doesn't subscribe to the authors' religious beliefs, notice how many times they personally, "screetched to a halt" to look more closely at them. Sure would hate to be a trucker following THEM, and expecting traffic to move somewhat normally. Although, I always try to pay attention, and drive carefully, I DO have to check my mirrors or guages occaissionaly. It only takes a second for some idiot to cause another fatality.

http://www.roadsideamerica.com/rant/descansos.html

Note the use of rebar in some states.... this is because some poor guy has to try and MOW these grassy areas!

They had a similar display here for a kid named Jason Jiron, who was a year ahead of me in HS. He was killed on May 5, 1995 by a drunk driver, who was estimated to have broadsided Jason's car at 71 mph, over twice the speed limit. The city police have his wrecked Datsun 210 on a trailer and take it to be viewed by kids attending drivers ed. The city later renamed a small park in his honor.

In Mexico, the operators of the toll roads often place a wrecked car at the toll booths with a sign asking you to please drive carefully.

The states that allow families to purchase state maintained memorial signs usually remove them after 1-5 years (depending on state) and give the family the sign.

Here in Las Cruces, the site of two deadly DWI accidents, the one involving Jason Jiron and the other involving a father and two children, have permanent signs installed by the city.

If there are that many then the Highway Patrol should be there making the roads safe, not the ACLU.

Classic example of someone not paying attention. In Kalispell, MT a state trooper was killed in a head on collision on US Hwy 2 on Tuesday. The female driver of the pickup truck was attempting to pick up something on the floor and swerved into the trooper's vehicle and killed him instantly. I hope they DO put up a nice cross for the trooper as a reminder to those who pass it to remember the troopers sacrifice and how carelessness can cost a life.

http://www.dailyinterlake.com/conten...ews/news01.jpg

I dont even know how to respond. Someone died there suddenly and unexpectantly. Very likely not of their own doing, even so, they still died. Their family still grieved. Next you'll be complaining the funeral procession was too slow and made you wait too long.

If they are as plentiful as you say then maybe I see your point, I dunno. I dont notice them that often and when I do they dont bother me at all. I think if one of them was my family I'd be pretty offended right now to tell ya the truth.

I drove from Laredo to Cancun and back last summer, and there are less crosses in Mexico than there used to be.

I think the reason for this, is because, they have all moved up here to continue their tradition.



jonboy

[quote="DaveP"][quote="golfhobo"]Malakai said:

Why would you want to memorialize the very spot where something horrific happened? I would want to remember the person in another way.

I saw one the other day with a six pack of beer left under it. :roll:

Even war memorials need approval on public property, what gives any individual the right to use public property for their own use?

Being a christian or not has absolutely nothing to do with this debate.

jonboy

[quote="jonboy"][quote="DaveP"]Well, war memorials on public property are maintained by a governmental body, not a private person. So, because the taxpayers are footing the bill, approval must be made.

Completely different with an individual/family setting up a memorial for their loved ones and maintaining it themselves.

How bad is this really? You can drive for 100 miles and not see one. Typically you see them more as you get closer to the big cities. Personally, when I see one, I tend to refocus on what I'm doing and they serve as a reminder to drive safe.