God is an Outlaw (for Slimland)
 

Slim: Well, here it is. The thread we promised to further discuss whether God is subject to his own (or some universal) law, or not.

As we discussed, I would appreciate if you would list any thread links that I may need for research. I need them HERE and not in a PM.

This is NOT going to be argumentative, or in any way disrespectful to God or to you (if I can manage it.) This is a discussion thread.

I only ask that you MINIMIZE your quoting of scripture. If you'd like to give them as references, I'm sure I can find them in my Bible. Small excerpts will be accepted. But.... I REALLY want you to speak from your OWN heart as to what you believe, or have been taught, or conclusions you've come to.

If I understand you correctly, and without yet researching ALL your threads, you believe that God instituted a LAW that he cannot break. In this way, you feel he is subject to his own law, and that somehow... if he broke his own law, he could NOT exist. Please correct me if I misunderstand your premise.

Just because my father is a minister, and I've heard the Gospel and other sermons ALL my life, does NOT make me an expert. I will not presume that I know ALL the answers. But, I ask that you keep your arguments brief and to the point, and try not to talk in circles. Religion is a very confusing and deep subject, and it is hard to address your concerns/beliefs when they are MANY and cyclical. (i.e: don't talk yourself into a corner.)

Regardless of my personal beliefs about the existence of God, I will respond as though there IS one for the purpose of discussion. I will try not to muddy the waters with questions about his existence. However, please do not assume that I believe as fervently as you do, and try to answer me on a philosophical level instead of an evangelical one.

For the purpose of this discussion, MY vantage point is this:

God created ALL in heaven and Earth, including all laws. He put himself below NO laws. The fact that he cannot, or MAY not, violate any law that we have ascribed to Him, in NO way means that he is subject to any law that HE made, or that if he chose to break one, he would somehow cease to exist, or would not ever HAVE existed.

If I read you right, you seem to believe that IF he broke his own law, he would not be, and could not be, God.

There have been many things you've said that I might want to debate, but for now, the subject is God's law and whether or not he exists ONLY because he does not or cannot break his own law.

Are we agreed on this? Or have I missed your point?

Hobo

Universal law does not require a god....

It does if you believe God created the universe and therefore all the laws that govern it. :lol:

Be NICE, Fozzy. Slim hasn't even weighed in yet, and this is a discussion he wanted to have concerning God's Law and whether or not he is subject to it.

You, and anyone else, are welcome to join in if you like. But, try to stay on topic. :wink:

[And please, folks... no HUGE pictures of trucks that exceed the limits mentioned in the TOS. They make me have to scroll back and forth JUST to read each line of every post on the page.]

EDITED one time to correct a bad impression I made. :D

Consider: Slimland just PM'd me Saturday morning saying he thought I'd decided NOT to have this discussion. I didn't see his message until last night, and told him actually I was just about to start it now.

I guess he's out of town for the weekend or something. In case you missed it, this is a continuation of a discussion we were having on the Big Bang Theory thread. It didn't belong there, so we decided to move it to here.

Here it is, Consider. Sorry, I couldn't remember the actual title of it before.

http://www.classadrivers.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=20866

Helloo-- am I in the right place :lol:

Well GolfHobo--you put down my thought exaclty the way I said them, so you are correct in your presentation.
I will try to keep it simple, and I will try to keep it from circling back into the same point. "you know me too well"

As for links to other discussions, I will galdly give them or just repost them on this thread. whatever you like.

As for scripture-- I will do my best to paraphrase-and follow with the verse key, and not the actual verse, that way you can read it for your self..


Lets start with the question.

Is God subject to His own Law??


I had stated befor that Jesus was the Word of God, and therfor God, and also thus the Law. This is backed up in John.

So the Word became flesh and dwelt amongst men. How does this make Him subject to Himself?

But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

This can be found in Galations-- And In my understanding, God made Himself subject to His Own Law, and He was the only one who could fullfill the Law.



This should be a good starting point on this thread-- Sorry it took so long to answer--and as I said via pm-- we are both busy, but I will do my best to get on here during the weeks and not just the weekends, God willing!

Okay, Slim: From your first post....

Galations 4:4-5

"But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons."

This can be found in Galations-- And In my understanding, God made Himself subject to His Own Law, and He was the only one who could fullfill the Law.

**********

In MY humble opinion and interpretation of this verse [last time I will precede my comments with that... but it will always apply]:

What is being said here is that God sent his son, Jesus, to be born as the son of MAN so that HE (Jesus) would be subject to the Laws of MAN so that he would be an example to those he witnessed to, those that ARE under the law, of how to live one's life for GOD while yet subject to the laws of the "tribe" so to speak.

He could have sent him to Earth on a winged horse and Jesus could have walked among us as a GOD. He didn't want this. He wanted his son to be born "under the law" by being born of a woman.

We often talk of the Trinity as though they are all one in the same, and "in spirit" they may be. But, I believe God is a separate entity from his SON at the time of Jesus' birth. Otherwise, how could he have SENT us his son out of his love for us, and why would Jesus - on the cross - cry out to his father for a reprieve from his will?

So.... he sent his SON to be born "under the law" but this in NO way indicates that God himself has subjugated himself to Man's Law. (Jesus might have to "render unto Caesar... but I can't see GOD doing such.) And that is still different from being under his OWN law.

Okay... that's what I get for reading and interpreting a few scriptures out of context. I had to go back and re-read all of Galations to get this straight. Although, I stand by what I said above, I have a better understanding of the context now.

Paul was writing to the Galatians concerning an issue about serving "the Law." This was not so much laws like taxes and things. This WHOLE book, which comes from ONE letter to the "church," is about the Jewish Law concerning circumcision.

I believe the point is that Jesus was born a Jew and as a child, not yet aware of his calling, was circumcised "Under the Law." Paul is explaining to his Church that this has NO bearing on whether or not one is "justified" by God.

At any rate, this scripture is not about God being subject to his own laws and whether or not he could exist otherwise. Please find another reference to back up your argument.

Hobo

I see it the same way that golfhobo does but those who have read my posts already know that.

If no one lives up to the law that God gives to men to obey, all men must pay the penalty for falling short of the law.

Slimland may be saying that God must act according to what He says which of course is true. In essence as far as we understand it, God's power culminates from His Word. If God accepted men into His kingdom that fell short of His law without the penalty being paid, the Truth would have lied. Since Jesus Christ became a man and upheld the law God gave to man as a man, there exists a way for mankind to be saved from the penalty of God's law.

Since God wanted reconciliation (for whatever reason) with mankind, He upheld the law He gave to man but He was in no way required to do so in order to continue to exist. God existed without mankind in the past and could have existed without mankind in the future.

NOW I understand completly what you are saying. Got-it!


I cant help but laugh at this :lol:
I didn't even realize that I had not given the verse number or chapter, sorry you had to read all that. :lol: 8)


Ditto


Not the Laws of Man, but of God. And He "Jesus" was subject to those Laws. That is the whole of the book-- Paul with stood Peter--because the Laws forbid the Jews to eat with the gentiles--But Now that the Christ has come and Fulfilled the Law, and brought in the New Covenant in which God had cleansed the gentiles. These Laws no longer applied.
Peter himself had witness this in acts, but as we all Know, the old man is hard to get rid of, and he "peter" was found to be a hypocrit--because he proclaimed the new, and still tried to follow the old. This is why legalism--is called Galationism.
This book goes hand in hand with Romans, Hebrews, Corinthians, and Ephisians
And I am sure in the futur of this discussion, these books will be discussed.

Galatians 3:19-25
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

He wanted His Son who is His Word Born under His Word, and to do this He "Jesus" had to be born of a Virgin. For the man carry's the seed of sin.
The first prophecy of the Christ talks of this.

Genesis 3:13-15
13 And the LORD God said to the woman, ?What is this you have done??
The woman said, ?The serpent deceived me, and I ate.?
14 So the LORD God said to the serpent:
? Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.

15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.?


Yes and No-- For God the Father Spoke, and the Word is Him, just as your words are you. Thus the Word became Flesh.
This is why Jesus said He and the Father are one. As for the Holy Spirit--God is Spirit.
Jesus Cried out because He bore the sins of the whole world, and therfor was seperated from God.
I am sorry, but I can not fathom you not understanding this.

God creats a Law, This Law is His Word, and this Word when man hears it-- It flows through him-killing him. Becuase of the unrighteousness of man. So The Word dies to itself, to creat a New Law, to wich man can live by.

Huuugghhh "bangs head on computer"

Yes it does, the above is talking of God's Law. For it was a shadow of the true law, the substance is of Christ!
And Jesus being God, is subject to Himself!

Where are you getting mans law from?
Justifacation through faith, Not by Works of the Law.. As for cicumsision, Paul tells us that if one is to be circumsised because of the Law--then they are debted to do the whole law, and for man that is impossible. But for Christ it was not.

God is requiered to uphold the Law, because He is the Law!
Paul tells us it is impossible for God to lie!

I read through all this pretty fast, so I'm sure I missed the whole point. Everywhere on these forums there are those of you that just go back and forth over "There is a God; No there's not!; There is...etc". What I do not understand is this: If you believe in God above, then WHY question his word? And if you do NOT believe in him at all, the WHY keep asking questions about him?! If you are a self-proclaimed non-believer, yet you want believers to PROVE to you why they say there IS a GOD, then you must be curiouse about him then, right? If you really do not believe in him, then you would not give it a second thought. Or else maybe your on a mission to prove to the world that he does not exist. I told myself to not get in on this, its such a 'touchy' subject.

The problem is when "believers" want to start legislating their version of god. Especially a country like ours that forbids it! Religion is like anything else in the world, if it makes YOU happy.. kookie. If somehow this kookie feeling makes you want to subject others to it by illegal or forceful means, then it is NOW dangerous to the well being of societies. As we are now seeing and have seen in the past, when it was ir is our version of god that is being enforced its somehow "OK" Now that it's some other religions turn behind the trigger, it's not fair and the other religion is now "bad". We as a planet are just re-living history and we who claim that organized religion is dangerous are AGAIN caught in the cross fire between the rabid followers these supposed "loving and merciful gods".

I wish there was a way to just allow them a corner of the world that they could play their dumb a**ed games and leave everyone else alone.

Oh. I see what U-R saying. What a backwards country we have. People need to either quit breeding for a while, or be like Canada and close the borders for a while- I think the USA has too much on its arrogant plate. I've never paid too much attention to politics, but its a nervy feeling to know that the majority of the world hates us, all b/c of our tendency to mettle! (Think I may be diggin' myself a hole here...)

That will never happen as the only people who can seem to breed like rodents, cannot seem to be able to (or wont) support themselves or there numerous offspring by several broodmares. I find this the most ironic part about those who repeatedly bash homosexual unions and homosexual couples adopting children.

I've never come close to hearing that Canada has closed anything.. other than to continue to bar people with criminal pasts. (too bad the US cant seem to do that too well).

The problem with that theory is that you have to believe that it is first arrogance and or that the situation did not deserve what you refer too as "meddling".

Probably, but hang in there... :P

I was led to the understanding that you can GO to Canada, but you cannot become a permanent resident there. Is that incorrect?

Please find another thread. Note the topic of this one, and reread my first post. Thanks.

Hobo

sorry.

No harm... no foul. Thanks for being considerate. You DID say that you only read it "quickly." Maybe, you didn't read any of Slimland's earlier posts, or even the tail end of Rocky's Big Bang thread. So, you might not have understood the context and purpose of THIS thread.

Fozzy raises some interesting points, although USUALLY in the wrong thread. I agree with MUCH he says, I just wish he would ALSO respect the topic of THIS thread.

Thanks again, Shyykatt! Why do you have TWO "y's" in your name?

Quoted to get us back on topic, and to jump over unnecessary chatter.

yep- looks like I have some reading to do. :D

(The 2 "Y's"; Coz I'm extra shy- and mostly b/c I wanted to be different!)

Links---

Here's a few of them-- I am waiting for a response on some others-- so I don't have to spend all night looking for them.

Slimland




http://www.classadrivers.com/phpBB2/...840&highlight=

http://www.classadrivers.com/phpBB2/...681&highlight=

http://www.classadrivers.com/phpBB2/...361&highlight=

http://www.classadrivers.com/phpBB2/...294&highlight=

http://www.classadrivers.com/phpBB2/...736&highlight=

http://www.classadrivers.com/phpBB2/...731&highlight=

http://www.classadrivers.com/phpBB2/...681&highlight=

http://www.classadrivers.com/phpBB2/...479&highlight=

http://www.classadrivers.com/phpBB2/...364&highlight=



Well I think that is all of them, and it didn't take me all night!

Slimland

Just wanted to let ya know.....
I have gone back and read some of the things ya'll have been discussing in other threads- I had no idea it was there;
I just want to say that I feel bad for interrupting; since I did not read everything else, I was assuming this wasn't a very in-depth, seriouse conversation- I was totally wrong. I apologize.
It is good to see there are those of you that carry such strong convictions and faith- if only there were more people like you in this world!

There are too many in the world... not too few.. We see actions all over the history of the planet brought on by those who have gods to appease or to defend. It's VERY sad really that beings that are supposedly so advanced still need all of this mumbo jumbo.

Come on now, Fozzy! Slim and I are taking up only a few bytes of memory on a message board to "discuss" whether God would be subject to his OWN law or not. There's no mandate for killing in his name being discussed here... by anyone but you.

If you read my last few posts on the Big Bang thread, you would see that I discussed the possibility that God was a figment of our lack of knowledge. But, for THIS thread, I am assuming he is real. Perhaps, you could do the same, and JOIN in the discussion. Otherwise, I suggest you are only fitting the description of a TROLL.

If you HAVE, or would like to START a thead discussing how God came to be - or not be. I might be glad to join in. However, unlike you, I will TRY to stay on topic there.

This is a discussion board...not a personal chatroom. The gneral topic is on the table and there are comments that can be discussed within the topic. A poster brought into the discussion a point that adds to the interest of the topic. I didn't slam anyone or use vulgarity and the topic is still being discussed. The only way to have a two way private discussion is through email, personal messages or IM. This even falls into the topic that you two are discussing.

Okay, Fozzy... whatever you say. I read your posts and couldn't see how they were "on topic." But, maybe that is MY failing. MANY of Slimland's topics could have been between two people in an email setting, but they weren't. So, I felt this was a forum on which we could have ONE thread concerning this question of subjugation to the Law.

I don't see how your general disdain for anyone who 'believes' is germain, but go ahead, if you want. If I don't see the relativity, I don't have to respond.

For the record, as I've said before, I agree with much you say about how religion has caused problems in the world. But... that is a topic for another thread. Or, you could just PM everyone with your beliefs.

Where's the 'ignore' button? Could ya'll move on- some of us actually are open to others' ideas/opinions.

Slimland: Sorry about any confusion in my first few posts. I referred to Man's Law, AND God' law. I believe that, at the time, they were pretty much the same thing. Much of man's law, as it concerned the Jews, was based on or completely, God's law.

My point was that the scripture you quoted meant that Jesus was born of Man, so that he would be "under" the laws of the land, and therefore Jewish Law.

This in NO way implies that God was subject to these laws that he laid down for his "children."

I"ve scanned the links, thank you. Some of them are 12-17 pages long, so I haven't got the time right now to read every post.

My problem with you lies in only two areas. 1) that you quote yourself into a corner, adding your own interpretations, and end up saying things about God being FORCED to live by his own laws, or that He is powerless to do otherwise. and 2) This stuff about "dying to the law."

My point is that God would have created ALL things, including the Law he laid down for his creation, but would not cease to exist just because HE chose to do other than to follow his own law.

I'll get back to this as soon as I've gotten a better grip on what you are saying, and what the Bible says about it.

I never said that God was Forced into His Own Law--But let me clarify-- I believe that God subjected Himself to His own Law.

As the scripture states-- That the Law "10 Commandments" and the "ceremonial laws" are the Laws of sin and death. And from what Paul tells us is that Man cannot live up to this Law--Because we fail in every catagory of this Law. Therfor it brings nothing but sin and death. This is why he says--that wich is Holy, brings death--because it shows us our sin, and unrighteousness, therfor brings spiritual death or shows our spiritual death!
Jesus being God--subjected Himself to this Law. Therfor is my stance.
Why do I think that Jesus is God? Because -- The Word was with God and WAS God, and became FLESH and dwelt amongst men.
So being fully man concieved by the Holy Spirit, being born to a Virgin. This Man who is God in the flesh, does not have the evil seed, that we as normal men carry. Thus he was born spiritualy alive, this is why He was the best sacrifice. Not to mention that the WORD of God was the Law. So this would mean that Christ is the Law. This is why Paul states the Law wich was Givin to man, was a shadow of what was to come--The substance is Christ.
So God subjected Himself to His Own Word.
This is where the New Covenant comes in---Jesus fulfilled the Old Law "Covenant" Why? Because, man could not live up to it!
So He takes the Sin of the world upon Himself and dies to the Law. Becuase sin is dealt with by the shedding of blood. and what a better sacrifice than God Himself, the creator of the Law. Now under the New Covenant-- We forever have a intersessor, and a New Covenant. Did this change the principal of the Law--NO. It just made it easeir to believe. Cause anything not of faith is sin. This is why the Just shall live by faith. And there sins and lawless acts God says He will remember NO More. Where these have been forgiven, Now there is NO more sacrifice for sin.
The Old Law-- The priest would sacrifice every year, the blood of bulls and goats etc. and though this would cover sin, it could not take it away. But the Blood of the Son of God, is forever. Not to mention since there was a change in the Law, there must be a change of Priest hood. Now we are no longer under Livitical Priesthood, but under the Priest hood of Mekelsedik.

I can go on and on--but if you where to read Hebrews and Romans, then Galations and Ephisians, not to mention 1John, Peter, James, and Corinthians. You would get a better picture of what I am saying.

Slimland

Can God make a law that is legally binding to man :?:

Slimland: I didn't get a chance to read your last post before composing this offline. But, since I went through all the trouble.... I'll post it and then come back to your last, which I must say... is much more conversational and less recitational! :lol:

------------

Slimland: For what it's worth, I've been reading my Bible off and on for many years. I have scraps of paper marking many scriptures that have guided my life. But, in researching this topic, I find that NONE of them concerned this issue of "the Law."

I'm not sure why you (or I) find it so fascinating, other than the possibility that you feel that your past life has taken you so far away from it. And you are looking for "rules" that you can follow to bring yourself closer to Him.

I just read the first 8 chapters of Romans, and I'm convinced that MOST of what is discussed in the Bible concerning the LAW, is as I said, about Jewish law concerning circumscision and other statements by the priests as to HOW one can be justified by God. Paul is mostly concerned with telling his Gentile churches how and why they can be "adopted" as sons of God through faith, though they live outside the Jewish laws.

Heb 8:19:

For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope DID; by the which we draw nigh to God.

He made a point in the book of Timothy, to warn against those who try too hard to discern and interpret the law:

I Tim: 1:6-9:

From which SOME having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, NOR whereof they affirm. But we know that the law is good, if a man use if lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is NOT made for a righteous man,but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners....

In Romans 7, Paul (once the blasphemous Saul) is saying that until he KNEW of the Jewish law, he was unaware of his sin. He even says that "what is good and holy" was NOT the death of him... God forbid. But, that once recognized as sin, the continuance down that path led only to eternal death and damnation.

His point is that the Gentiles, ignorant of the Jewish law, are not subject to it, but rather are redeemed through Christ and made righteous by their beliefs and their works. (And don't NEED to be circumscised!) It is unbelievable almost, how much of the scripture concerns this ONE aspect of the "law." Cirmcumscision!

Now... to the question of God being subject to his own law:

Rocky said: "The thing is if YOU could create the Universe, would you have any choice NOT to, and it COULD not be any different than it is, other wise it WOULD be."

God certainly was under NO mandate to create the universe JUST because he could. This shows that he had a choice, and always HAS had one, in ALL things. Could it NOT have been different than it is? I'm sure it could have been. All things are possible through God, therefore, he could have made the universe any way he wanted to. He was not subject to ANY law that dictated HOW he created the universe. The fact that it is NOT different than it is, in NO way indicates that it COULDN'T be. Only that it ISN'T, and if it was...then it would be as he wished, and STILL could have been different.

Someone said: "...But sorry I feel that God has to follow the laws that govern the Universe, Or he will not be God." This is unfounded, and Littleman's response:

"If I find out someone or something else created the laws that govern the universe that God has to follow, I will worship him or it because it would seem to me that this entity would certainly be able to beat up the god of the Bible"

is exactly correct! God MADE the laws that govern the universe, and therefore can change them whenever he wants.

Chapchap said: "I do not understand the thinking that God is subject to the laws of the universe. If this were true, wouldn't the laws of the universe be God, and the god of the Bible be a servant?"

Absolutely. Only in science fiction novels, can a creator be subserviant to his creation.

Slim said: "God, making the Law of the universe, would be subject to the Law, Why? Because He is Just and Good. And to deny the Law would be to deny Himself. Because He is the Law."

This flimsy defense wouldn't even hold up in an American court of law!
Isaiah 33:22:

For the Lord is our Judge, the Lord is our Lawgiver, the Lord is our King; He will save us.

The Lord GIVES the Law. Like many judges and lawmakers and Kings... he is ABOVE the law he GIVES. He has absolute POWER, and thus cannot be impeached, regardless of his acts.

I Cor 6:12:

All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: All things are lawfull FOR me, but I will not be brought under the power of ANY.

Now... that may NOT have been God talking through his apostle, but it sounds like it was. It CERTAINLY sounds like something GOD would say if someone tried to tell him he must obey his own laws! (kind of like Saddam!)

Quoting Slim:

The law of Sin and Death, is the Law in which you speak. For this is the Law Which gives us the Knowlege of Sin and the Righteous requirments of this Law produces death in man.

The WAGES of sin is death. And this stems from the time of Adam and Eve. It may be true that, once aware of our sin, the turning away from God's gift of salvation brings eternal death, but again... this is a law God gave to Man. It is not the "knowledge" of this law that produces death, but the breaking of it.

We know that the knowlege of Evil comes from the Law of God. Other wise, we would have never Known, thou shall not covet! But now we know, we are condemned. For the breaking of 1 commandment is to break all, and the punishment for this is death.

We are not condemned simply because we KNOW the laws of God, but because, as humans, we cannot be perfected to a level above the law. I found no scripture that says the breaking of ONE commandment is to break them all! And not even one that says breaking any of these commandments is a death sentence. As you stated, these commandments were a "primer" on how God would have us live to glorify HIM.

And remember, these commandments were part of Mosaic law. They were given to the early Jews, and were superceded by the death of Jesus on the cross.

But... back to the point:

Slimland says: "The Law is Holy, but when it flows through man it kills him."

I can't find the scripture that backs this up. I'm sure the POPE can't either.

"Now as for God being subject to His own Law--

Hebrews 6:18
18 that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.

I've studied this scripture over and over, and all its references, and cannot be sure what TWO things are being cited. But... it sounds as if it refers to only TWO things about which God cannot lie. I don't know for sure as of this writing. But, even IF so....

The Above scriptur, says that is Impossible for God to lie, Why? Because He is subject to His own Law.

NO... but because he is TRUTH. That is different than being subject to his own law, and your reasoning needs substantiation.

If He were to Lie, then He could be Tempted,

If, as you say, the three are one... then he WAS tempted. Jesus was tempted by the Devil while wandering in the wilderness. And even GOD was tempted, or tested, debated or challenged by Lucifer as concerned JOB.

for the Lie is the sin, but sin does not take root, untill the fall into temptation.

You're talking in circles again. If lying is a sin, then the sin is committed as soon as the lie comes out of our mouth.

For ANYTHING that is not faith is Sin.

No basis for this in the Bible. Good works are mentioned, and it is said they will not get us to heaven. But NOWHERE are they considered a SIN.

So if God were to Sin, and Sin according to scripture is to go against God's Word "i.e: unbelief" then God would no longer be.

You have NO basis for this in the Bible. Please quote one scripture that says that God would cease to be if he went against his own word, or in any other way "sinned."

Why? Because that wich created, would no longer believe in Himself. And what happens if Sin, i.e: Unbelief, were to happen? God would have to die!!! This is according to His own Law, This is Why He cannot be Tempted Nor Can He Lie.

Give me ONE scripture that says God could EVER die... for ANY reason! God's LAW, best as I can tell, applied ONLY to his creation. Show me ONE tennet under God's Law that says 1) that HE is subject to it or, 2) that the penalty for him breaking his own law is his death or cessastion of existence!

Even JESUS... who took on ALL the sins of mankind, and DIED "to the law" as you say, rose to live again in glory with God!

This is why I say you talk yourself into a corner. You try HARD to understand his word, but it is hard for ANY of us to do so. Then, when you think you've "got it" you come to some totally unbelievable and unsubstantiated "truth."

I don't question your faith, and absolutely am not ridiculing your belief! But, when you quote scriptures as answers to questions from the unbelievers, and talk yourself into a frenzy of "immortal suicide," you do no favor to your convictions, and give "aid and comfort" to the unbelievers like FOZZY!

Now, before someone JUMPS me, I don't CLAIM to know all there is to know about God! And I have ALMOST as much trouble as others understanding the redundant babbling that someone wrote down in the Bible. But, I am not NEW to this "religion" thing. And IF I have a talent at ALL... it is in comprehension. So... sue me!

If I thought one could understand the Bible by praying, and that God would answer us, I would be on my knees every free hour of the day! For, I too, want to know the truth!

There are MANY who have spent their whole lives trying to interpret the Word, and I believe only a part of what they say. I'm sorry, Slimland, but until I see a glowing light around you, I am not inclined to take YOUR word for it, either.

I don't debate you to discourage you! Rather, I encourage you, as I did before, to investigate what OTHERS say. To me, your "interpretations" as you feel God has revealed them to you, are at least SOMEWHAT a figment of your own human understanding... and I hate to see you lead yourself astray.

In that God is all things to all people, there may be no harm in it. But, you seem to genuinely want to know all you can, and I am only pointing out that you are new to it and, "when we were Babes, we thought as babes." (or however it goes.)

I don't know for sure that God talks to me. And I'd be surprised if he still listens to me. [I refused a calling to be a minister.] But, if so... He'll get my vote that YOU be accorded all blessings of the faithful. And I'll PRAY that he doesn't hold that against you!


HOBO

This is exactly why I put the links GolfHobo--Because I knew that it would be missunderstood. Unlike you--I do not have the ability to break things down to a short and to the point story. I feel compelled to explain, and sometimes I explain to much! So the links though it is jumpy--all put together helps one to understand.
Out of all the debates and discussions can one understand what I have said, I wish it where just one--but it did not work out that way. As you can see--you yourself where wondering where I had come from.

This thread should have been started along time ago!


Now let me explain my thoughts in which you quoted, though I do believ you understand them now. But not all have the understanding nor the backgroung that you and I have!!!!



My point exactly on this!

[quote]Slim said: "God, making the Law of the universe, would be subject to the Law, Why? Because He is Just and Good. And to deny the Law would be to deny Himself. Because He is the Law."

If God is Truth--and His definitiion of Truth is Holyness without Sin, What would be the definition of Sin?

Romans 14:22-23
22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.


The law of Sin and Death, is the Law in which you speak. For this is the Law Which gives us the Knowlege of Sin and the Righteous requirments of this Law produces death in man.

Romans 3:19-20
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 4:15
15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

Romans 5:12-21
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned? 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man?s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man?s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man?s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man?s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man?s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man?s obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So if the definition of Sin is to go against Gods Word "ie Law" Then God Himself could not either, Because He is Just and Good, and cannot Lie, and lying is against the law, and is not of Faith. and anything that is not of Faith is SIN. and God is not Sin, and He cannot deny Himself. So He "GOD" has made Himself subject to His own WORD!


Romans
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, ?You shall not covet.?[a] 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

The Pope needs to read more then!

Temptaion is not sin--but the fall into it is.

James 1:12-15
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, ?I am tempted by God?; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Now the reson that God cannot be temted, is that He had already proved that He cannot fall into temtation wich is sin "to deny Himself" as for Christ being temted, He had to be in order to fulfill the law without sin.
Do you understand this, or do I need to explain more?

.

Romans 14:22-23
22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

Now who is talking in circles?
I have explaind this above!
You are right no scripture ever said God could not die-- But Jesus being God, died for us, to redeem us from the consiqueses of the Law, and rose again to give us new life in HIM!
Why did He die? Was it because He became sin for us? Thus subjecting Himself to Himself "the law" and the law says those who have sin must have the shedding of blood! So HIS blood was shed, because of Sin, He became sin to deliver us. thus He was subjected to His own Law.
Then He made the New Covenant come into effect, which still has the prerequisit of believ or not, but now it is easier to come to the throne, for our sins and lawless acts He remembers no more.
So here we have the discussion of is God subject to His own Law?
We know that Jesus was and is God, and He himself subjected Himself to His own word. and became the curse for us, so we would not have to tast death, for those who believ in Him. Thus it fulfilles the Holy requierment's of the Law, and the basis of the Law still stands. and the Hole bassis of the Law is belief in Him. cause anything that is not of faith is sin.

Slim: I certainly don't want to be guilty of talking in circles, but with all these subtopics going, it is hard not to. So, in an attempt to clarify or simplify the "discussion:"

First, we now have identified at least 3 different laws, and it is hard not to confuse them. 1) The law of God given to the Jews, 2) the law of sin and death (i.e: the NEW covenant that ALL must be justified by, and 3) the law of the Universe.

One of the original claims (not even sure if YOU made it) was that God created the Universe and therefore was subject TO those laws.

To me... here we are discussing the laws of physics that explain how the universe began or continues. I see no reason or proof that God is "bound" by any of these physical laws. Indeed such miracles as the burning bush, immaculate conception, raising of the dead, feeding of the multitudes, and others prove this.

As for the Mosaic Law, I believe we are in agreement that this was a primer meant to keep the Jews closer to God, and never even promised Eternal Life to those who followed it. I believe it is clear, from the scriptures we both discussed, that there was MUCH discussion in the day about whether the Gentiles could be "adopted" if they didn't follow these laws. The letters of the apostles are almost wholly dedicated to resolving this dispute between and amongst the various tribes.

At one point there, Paul talks HIMSELF into circles and comes close to confusing the law of the Jews with the law that you refer to as Sin and Death. Keep in mind, he was not composing a research paper, a codicile, or an instruction manual at the time. He was getting emotional while writing a letter to the church, and knowing them to be almost totally ignorant of the things of which he spoke, he tried to give too much information to clarify himself. This is why these books of the Bible are so difficult to understand.

At this point, my concern is with some of the things you say concerning this NEW law, and whether God subjected himself to it; and some of the things you say about it being the death of someone. To that end...


[quote="Slimland"][quote

Quote:

Slim said: "God, making the Law of the universe, would be subject to the Law, Why? Because He is Just and Good. And to deny the Law would be to deny Himself. Because He is the Law."

This has been an interesting discussion, Slim. But, I believe I've said about all that I can. (for now, anyways.) I will let YOU have the last word. And then we can argue with Fozzy some more! :lol:


Hobo

You two should just write a novel together; it's gonna take me a whole night to read all of this- and to even understand most of it! :D

That's okay... you've got a whole 42 hours! :lol:

Now you know why, for the most part, I stayed OFF of his other theads! :shock: :lol:

Brew a pot of coffee, and call me about 41:45 tomorrow! :lol:

Yes.... sort of. MANY ancient legal systems were based on God's law. Many women were convicted and stoned to death for committing adultery. The Spanish Inquisition and the Salem Witch trials were other examples of humans being punished by other humans for breaking laws that were based on the Bible.

Give the Conservatives another term and we will see similar examples in our OWN "enlightened" society.

Even NOW, a man can be sent to prison for committing sodomy, even with a consenting adult.

Your just not gonna' let me live that down, are ya'? :lol:
Hey, '84' hours is on tv right now :D How 'bout that! Think I'll go watch- maybe I will learned somethin'! :shock: