[TCT]

Even the anti-war crowd is starting to come around. This piece was printed in the New York Times nonetheless. Somebody pinch me.

Op-Ed Contributor

A War We Just Might Win

By MICHAEL E. O’HANLON and KENNETH M. POLLACK
Published: July 30, 2007

Washington

VIEWED from Iraq, where we just spent eight days meeting with American and Iraqi military and civilian personnel, the political debate in Washington is surreal. The Bush administration has over four years lost essentially all credibility. Yet now the administration’s critics, in part as a result, seem unaware of the significant changes taking place.

Here is the most important thing Americans need to understand: We are finally getting somewhere in Iraq, at least in military terms. As two analysts who have harshly criticized the Bush administration’s miserable handling of Iraq, we were surprised by the gains we saw and the potential to produce not necessarily “victory” but a sustainable stability that both we and the Iraqis could live with.

After the furnace-like heat, the first thing you notice when you land in Baghdad is the morale of our troops. In previous trips to Iraq we often found American troops angry and frustrated — many sensed they had the wrong strategy, were using the wrong tactics and were risking their lives in pursuit of an approach that could not work.

Today, morale is high. The soldiers and marines told us they feel that they now have a superb commander in Gen. David Petraeus; they are confident in his strategy, they see real results, and they feel now they have the numbers needed to make a real difference.

Everywhere, Army and Marine units were focused on securing the Iraqi population, working with Iraqi security units, creating new political and economic arrangements at the local level and providing basic services — electricity, fuel, clean water and sanitation — to the people. Yet in each place, operations had been appropriately tailored to the specific needs of the community. As a result, civilian fatality rates are down roughly a third since the surge began — though they remain very high, underscoring how much more still needs to be done.

In Ramadi, for example, we talked with an outstanding Marine captain whose company was living in harmony in a complex with a (largely Sunni) Iraqi police company and a (largely Shiite) Iraqi Army unit. He and his men had built an Arab-style living room, where he met with the local Sunni sheiks — all formerly allies of Al Qaeda and other jihadist groups — who were now competing to secure his friendship.

In Baghdad’s Ghazaliya neighborhood, which has seen some of the worst sectarian combat, we walked a street slowly coming back to life with stores and shoppers. The Sunni residents were unhappy with the nearby police checkpoint, where Shiite officers reportedly abused them, but they seemed genuinely happy with the American soldiers and a mostly Kurdish Iraqi Army company patrolling the street. The local Sunni militia even had agreed to confine itself to its compound once the Americans and Iraqi units arrived...

Link to entire article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/30/op...=1&oref=slogin

[Useless]

If we should have learned any lessons at all from The (illegal) Vietnam war, they should have been;

No Army can successfuly defeat an armed citizenry.

We can not win a war where the people we are supposed to be helping are set against us.

We can not win a war where the politicians in Washington, D.C. are calling the shots.

The concept of Democracy is a noble one, but in that corner of the world, it only serves to allow the hands of oppression to shift from one faction to another.

As far as "Winning the war in Iraq" is concerned, Chenney, Busn, and KBR Inc. have done something that they castigated Bill Clinton for doing; they never formulated an exit strategy. Bush has already washed his hands of this responsibility, saying that it will be up to his successor to deal with those matters.

[tthunderdan]

...the Iraq war has been somewhat of a success for those who started it, the oil is going thru the proper channels and we are paying more and more for it, the loss of life is unimportant to them...the democracy was just part of the smokescreen, you know like the homeland security gold mine and the war on terror, but hey the borders issue is settled, isn't it...our leaders, dem and repubs both are nothing but line towing suck ups to whoever has the cash at the moment...at least they hit a snag trying to make 80 across PA a toll road...darn, someone could've lined alot of pockets if they were to lease that one out for billions, c'mon...

[golfhobo]

Originally Posted by TCT

Even the anti-war crowd is starting to come around. This piece was printed in the New York Times nonetheless. Somebody pinch me.

TCT, I don't really KNOW you, so I don't want to come off as criticizing you for posting this. But, it is a bunch of B.S!

Op-Ed Contributor

A War We Just Might Win

By MICHAEL E. O’HANLON and KENNETH M. POLLACK
Published: July 30, 2007

Washington

VIEWED from Iraq, where we just spent eight days meeting with American and Iraqi military and civilian personnel, the political debate in Washington is surreal. The Bush administration has over four years lost essentially all credibility. Yet now the administration’s critics, in part as a result, seem unaware of the significant changes taking place.

First off, NO INTELLIGENT American belives the "dog and pony show" that we get everytime a member of Congress or the DOD goes to Iraq!

Here is the most important thing Americans need to understand: We are finally getting somewhere in Iraq, at least in military terms. As two analysts who have harshly criticized the Bush administration’s miserable handling of Iraq, we were surprised by the gains we saw and the potential to produce not necessarily “victory” but a sustainable stability that both we and the Iraqis could live with.

Finally getting somewhere? After 5 years? What happened to "shock and awe?" What happened to "Mission Accomplished?" Fact is.... if we are "FINALLY" getting somewhere NOW, we could have gotten there YEARS ago by committing the necessary forces to get the job DONE! But, NO.... we were convinced that we would be "welcomed" by the populace with open arms! So we "drew down" to a "police force" and a "training force" and the opposition ruled the day! That is a FACT that NO ONE disputes!

After the furnace-like heat, the first thing you notice when you land in Baghdad is the morale of our troops. In previous trips to Iraq we often found American troops angry and frustrated — many sensed they had the wrong strategy, were using the wrong tactics and were risking their lives in pursuit of an approach that could not work.

ABSOLUTE PROOF that our strategy for 4 years was NOT working! And that morale was no higher in Iraq than it was at HOME! I'm not blaming the Military, but rather their Commanders.... including the CIC!!

Today, morale is high. The soldiers and marines told us they feel that they now have a superb commander in Gen. David Petraeus; they are confident in his strategy, they see real results, and they feel now they have the numbers needed to make a real difference.

I'm absolutely shocked! 3,000 soldiers had to DIE before SOMEONE came up with a winning strategy?? Bush wouldn't have taken this step of a "surge" if he weren't pressed by EVEN his own party! He is a LOSER in terms of military strategy! CIC's of other countries have been HANGED for such incompetence, but here in America.... he was RE-ELECTED!

Everywhere, Army and Marine units were focused on securing the Iraqi population, working with Iraqi security units, creating new political and economic arrangements at the local level and providing basic services — electricity, fuel, clean water and sanitation — to the people. Yet in each place, operations had been appropriately tailored to the specific needs of the community. As a result, civilian fatality rates are down roughly a third since the surge began — though they remain very high, underscoring how much more still needs to be done.

Are you REALLY buying this?? By ALL accounts, their is NO OIL flowing out of Iraq these days, which was supposed to PAY for this war, and little or NO public services! Electricity is available for only a few hours a day, and gasoline costs more than here in America!

In Ramadi, for example, we talked with an outstanding Marine captain whose company was living in harmony in a complex with a (largely Sunni) Iraqi police company and a (largely Shiite) Iraqi Army unit. He and his men had built an Arab-style living room, where he met with the local Sunni sheiks — all formerly allies of Al Qaeda and other jihadist groups — who were now competing to secure his friendship.

So... he and his men have "sold out" to the Iraqi way of doing things? I suppose it was "forboden" to display an American flag? Have you HEARD that the Sunni's have withdrawn from the "Al Malike" government because it has shown NO possibility for an "equal" participaton by the Sunni's?

In Baghdad’s Ghazaliya neighborhood, which has seen some of the worst sectarian combat, we walked a street slowly coming back to life with stores and shoppers. The Sunni residents were unhappy with the nearby police checkpoint, where Shiite officers reportedly abused them, but they seemed genuinely happy with the American soldiers and a mostly Kurdish Iraqi Army company patrolling the street. The local Sunni militia even had agreed to confine itself to its compound once the Americans and Iraqi units arrived...

Until they LEFT.... then it goes back to normal! Dog and Pony show! Dog and Pony Show! What part of this charade do you NOT understand, or are unwilling to believe??

NO Sunni or Shiite neighborhood will put up with Kurdish policemen after the Americans leave! Have you NO IDEA of the history of this country?


Link to entire article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/30/op...=1&oref=slogin

Sometimes, you Republicans remind me of the passengers on the Hindenburg who, while riding first class, and thinking this ship couldn't FAIL, cried out, "give the captain a chance! He'll save us!" Right up till they hit the ground and burned up in the flames!

You grab onto "straws" because you can't admit this policy is not working, and soldiers are dying! And the country we are supposedly trying to save, doesn't CARE! They have NO concept of Democracy or equal rights! And if THEY are our "allies" against Al Queida or any other terrorist group, we are doomed! They have the spine of a jellyfish!

I can't friggin BELIEVE you posted this, and thought it indicated a shift in policy of the Democrats! It is the REPUBLICANS who are "coming around" and seeing that the "Emporor has no clothes!"

It is SO typical of the Republican mind, with blinders on, to believe that we are somehow WINNING this war, that the outcome will be "rosey" and that somehow even a few Democrats are "coming around" to your side! :shock: :roll:

The FACTS tend to prove the exact OPPOSITE!

[Twilight Flyer]

First off, NO INTELLIGENT American belives the "dog and pony show"

You start out with an insult, rendering the rest of your post completely without value.

I can't friggin BELIEVE you posted this, and thought it indicated a shift in policy of the Democrats! It is the REPUBLICANS who are "coming around" and seeing that the "Emporor has no clothes!"

It is SO typical of the Republican mind, with blinders on, to believe that we are somehow WINNING this war, that the outcome will be "rosey" and that somehow even a few Democrats are "coming around" to your side!

And it is SO typical of the Democratic mind, with their damned defeatist attitude and blatant pessimism to think that ANYTHING good coming out of Iraq is a lie.

Frankly, you don't know squat and neither do I. The only thing that any of us knows is what the press prints or shows on TV. We are treated to soundbites and political hay, nothing more.

That said, if the op-ed piece that was posted has no value or weight, then your opinions regarding said piece are of the exact same pointless fluff. They are your opinions, nothing more, and outright disdain and sarcasm at the most. Some might share your views and others might scoff at them. But they are no more the 'truth' than anything else anyone hears. If you truly want the truth, hop a plane to Bagdahd and take a walk-about and see for yourself.

The bottom line, though, is simple. If you cannot dissect the op-ed piece without throwing insults to the poster for his hopes and beliefs, then don't reply at all. I, for one, am flat sick and tired of the sniping between posters over political ideals. We don't have a political forum over here for a reason, but we don't frown on political posts. We simply expect the posters to post within the T.O.S. guidelines they agreed to when registering as a member. Attack the piece, post your thoughts, but keep the insults out of it.

[golfhobo]

Okay, Twilight..... I've been properly "chastised" and I apologize if I got out of hand. I DID tell the O.P. from the beginning that I wasn't attacking HIM, but rather the "fluff piece" he posted. But, it seems I DID fall away from that resolve just a bit. I apologize to TCT and you and anyone else that felt insulted.

There are MANY Republicans on here that I consider friends, and I didn't mean to insult THEM either. When I refer to Republican thoughts and beliefs, I am usually referring to the "mouthpieces" I hear on FoxNews all the time. Those "Beltway Boys" drive me nuts! That guy who sits on the far left (George?) would call a blue sky RED, if it fit the Republican agenda! :shock:

They must think we're all idiots!

Originally Posted by Twilight Flyer

You start out with an insult, rendering the rest of your post completely without value.

Sorry, I didn't think that was an insult. My parents are both Republicans, and even THEY know when someone is blowing smoke up their butts! As for "no value," that's okay..... NO CHARGE! :lol:

And it is SO typical of the Democratic mind, with their damned defeatist attitude and blatant pessimism to think that ANYTHING good coming out of Iraq is a lie.

I don't think I have a "defeatist" attitude, anymore than the 70% of Republicans who have lost faith in Bush's ability to manage the Terrorist Crisis. If I'm "pessimistic," it is because I hear people like Warner and Hagel and others who have finally come out and started speaking the truth.

I would like nothing MORE than to see some REAL progress in Iraq! But, I don't see much more than the occaissional "hopeful" twist on a situation, that indicates anything is improving over there. Those who SAY they've had a peacefull "walkabout" often have to be forced to admit that, yeah.... there were heavily armed U.S. troops protecting the area while they "strolled." When (and IF) those American troops are ever withdrawn, I doubt seriously that things will remain so "peaceful" and "secure."

You can call that defeatist or pessimistic if you want. I call it REALITY based on HISTORICAL evidence.


Frankly, you don't know squat and neither do I. The only thing that any of us knows is what the press prints or shows on TV. We are treated to soundbites and political hay, nothing more.

Well, I don't claim any "superiour" knowledge of the facts on the ground, but I don't get my information from "soundbites." I listen to programs where there is an indepth interview with those NGO or government workers who HAVE been there. I read full length articles from several newspapers, and many INTERNATIONAL news websites. Foreigners often have a more "neutral" opinion of what is going on over there.

THAT is how I KNOW when someone is blowing smoke! And THIS article was very HEAVY smoke! (And mirrors... AND innuendo.... and Polyannaism.)

That said, if the op-ed piece that was posted has no value or weight, then your opinions regarding said piece are of the exact same pointless fluff.

If I follow your logic, you MAY have a point. But, like I said.... no charge! Besides, MY opinions were in RED LETTERS, which outweighs and cancels out normal type fluff!


They are your opinions, nothing more, and outright disdain and sarcasm at the most. Some might share your views and others might scoff at them. But they are no more the 'truth' than anything else anyone hears.

Again, I apologize for the disdain and sarcasm. But, I believe this IS a forum where EVERYTHING posted (or most of it) is someone's "opinion."
However, I will TRY real hard to maintain a more "neutral" position in the future.


If you truly want the truth, hop a plane to Bagdahd and take a walk-about and see for yourself.

That's EXACTLY the problem. It can't be DONE! If I'm not mistaken, there is STILL a "travel ban" on citizens going to Iraq just cuz they WANT to see what's going on. Hmm...... maybe that's because the Gov't doesn't really WANT us to see it?? Hmmm.....

Even when our country's "leaders" make a trip there, it is ALWAYS unannounced.... otherwise, they'd be blown out of the sky on arrival!
Naw... I think I'll settle for TRUTHFUL reports from those who CAN get in there. And, overwhelmingly those reports contradict the ones offered in this op-ed piece! Perhaps YOU would like to go over there and see for yourself!?

The bottom line, though, is simple. If you cannot dissect the op-ed piece without throwing insults to the poster for his hopes and beliefs, then don't reply at all.

10-4!! MOST of my reply WAS a "dissection" of the piece. I SHOULD have left it there! I certainly didn't INTEND to insult the poster for HIS hopes and beliefs. We ALL HOPE for a resolution to the war, and an improvement for the country of Iraq! Unfortunately, MOST Americans don't see it happening... and wouldn't have posted this Op-Ed piece as some kind of "evidence" that it is. But.... that's just MY opinion.


I, for one, am flat sick and tired of the sniping between posters over political ideals. We don't have a political forum over here for a reason, but we don't frown on political posts. We simply expect the posters to post within the T.O.S. guidelines they agreed to when registering as a member. Attack the piece, post your thoughts, but keep the insults out of it.

I "understand" your reasons for not having a political subforum, and I APPRECIATE your tolerance of such threads! Truckers, in general, are quite "political," and I must admit that I'm somewhat of a political "animal." (Surprise anyone???) :shock: :lol:

For what it's worth, I didn't just SKIP over the T.O.S. when registering. I read EVERY word of it/them. I will go back and read them again. And I will make a renewed attempt to stay within them (or ONLY 5mph over!)

But, your POINT is taken! My apologies AGAIN to TCT and all my Republican friends if I insulted you. I didn't really mean to! But, "lack of intention" is not a valid excuse! You guys and gals, and THIS board, are the greatest bunch I've EVER had the pleasure of offending... I mean KNOWING!! :wink:

Now, back to our regularly scheduled soap opera! 8)

[Twilight Flyer]

However, I will TRY real hard to maintain a more "neutral" position in the future.

And that's not an easy thing to do when talking politics or religion. Both topics tend to get heated and require the occassional moderater intervention. I don't want to censor anyone's opinions or lock or delete threads, but I gotta call foul on things that are or can be taken as an insult. Thanks for your understanding.

Regarding the good or bad over there, I have always found it interesting that the 'news' takes on the slant of the person's beliefs. For example, those with hope, tend to come out with good information. Those that want it over, tend to paint a bleak picture.

I have a couple of friends over there in combat roles (and have sadly lost one, too, who believed fully in what he was doing before he died), as well as a driver friend of mine driving for KBR. To hear them speak, there is real progress being made, morale is up, and they are really seeing a difference. When I match that up with the media with their everything bad and dreary 100% of the time, it raises an eyebrow.

Personally, I believe we are making progress over there, albeit too slowly. I believe we are making a difference. But like you, I want things kicked into high gear and wrapped up much quicker. The war weighs on everyone from both sides of the issue. I tend to believe, though, that the truth resides somewhere between the bad and the good. It's a war, afterall.

[golfhobo]

Originally Posted by Twilight Flyer

And that's not an easy thing to do when talking politics or religion.

Or after a few beers! But, that's not really the problem.

Surprisingly, I don't get "heated" over religious discussions that much. But, politics is my "trigger." I don't know WHY... it NEVER really concerned me during the Reagan years, or the Clinton years. It's just something about BUSH, Jr. that gets me riled up!

I THINK it is his "betrayal" of our Constitution based SOLELY on his "religious" beliefs! AND, his "incompetence!" He's got his hands FULL with a war he started over his shame about his father's "failure" as HE SEES IT! ( I have NEVER blamed his father for NOT going to Baghdad in the first Gulf War, because he HAD NO U.N. MANDATE to DO so!)

Yet, he has time to ABRIDGE a good part of my Constitutional rights, snoop in my bedroom, deny medical research on stem cells based on a RELIGIOUS belief of when life begins, FIRE Attorneys General for not following the "Plan," and Stonewall Congressional oversight committees over "Executive Privilege!"

One of my FAVORITE Presidents, Eisenhower, in his farewell speech, WARNED us against the influence of the Military Industrial Complex and ANY president who would do their bidding. I believe he was speaking of THIS President!

Nixon's crimes PALE in comparison to what Dubya is doing to this country and the Constitution that is our "Cornerstone."

I am MORE "conservative" than many of you give me credit for. I'm, at least, a "Constitutionalist." and I believe it was intended to PROTECT me from a government that would use "religious beliefs" to control my life!

I believe the government should SERVE the people, not CONTROL them. We may disagree as to the level of "support" the government should give to the less fortunate, but I don't see why we are opposed on the question of Citizens' Rights!

I'm not jealous of what YOU have, and I don't expect you to be condescending towards ME for what I DON'T have! This is not supposed to be a country where only the "gentry" has a vote, but rather one where even the HOMELESS has a vote! THAT is "Democracy" and even fits the description of a "Republic."

Dayum! See what I mean? I can't even accept an "acceptance" of my apology without getting "political." :lol:

I should be SHOT and put out of my misery! :shock: :lol:

I just LOVE my country... and want to see it live up to the promises it MADE to me, and for which MY ancestors died!

OFF the soapbox now....Twilight, you're a good man, and an excellent moderator! Regardless of what Ridgerunner says about you! :lol:




[/quote]

[Ridge Runner]

Originally Posted by golfhobo

Or after a few beers! But, that's not really the problem.

Surprisingly, I don't get "heated" over religious discussions that much. But, politics is my "trigger." I don't know WHY... it NEVER really concerned me during the Reagan years, or the Clinton years. It's just something about BUSH, Jr. that gets me riled up!

I THINK it is his "betrayal" of our Constitution based SOLELY on his "religious" beliefs! AND, his "incompetence!" He's got his hands FULL with a war he started over his shame about his father's "failure" as HE SEES IT! ( I have NEVER blamed his father for NOT going to Baghdad in the first Gulf War, because he HAD NO U.N. MANDATE to DO so!)

Yet, he has time to ABRIDGE a good part of my Constitutional rights, snoop in my bedroom, deny medical research on stem cells based on a RELIGIOUS belief of when life begins, FIRE Attorneys General for not following the "Plan," and Stonewall Congressional oversight committees over "Executive Privilege!"

One of my FAVORITE Presidents, Eisenhower, in his farewell speech, WARNED us against the influence of the Military Industrial Complex and ANY president who would do their bidding. I believe he was speaking of THIS President!

Nixon's crimes PALE in comparison to what Dubya is doing to this country and the Constitution that is our "Cornerstone."

I am MORE "conservative" than many of you give me credit for. I'm, at least, a "Constitutionalist." and I believe it was intended to PROTECT me from a government that would use "religious beliefs" to control my life!

I believe the government should SERVE the people, not CONTROL them. We may disagree as to the level of "support" the government should give to the less fortunate, but I don't see why we are opposed on the question of Citizens' Rights!

I'm not jealous of what YOU have, and I don't expect you to be condescending towards ME for what I DON'T have! This is not supposed to be a country where only the "gentry" has a vote, but rather one where even the HOMELESS has a vote! THAT is "Democracy" and even fits the description of a "Republic."

Dayum! See what I mean? I can't even accept an "acceptance" of my apology without getting "political." :lol:

I should be SHOT and put out of my misery! :shock: :lol:

I just LOVE my country... and want to see it live up to the promises it MADE to me, and for which MY ancestors died!

OFF the soapbox now....Twilight, you're a good man, and an excellent moderator! Regardless of what Ridgerunner says about you! :lol:

[/quote]

Now I have to cry foul. Bush has NEVER denied medical research on stem cells. He has only refused to fund it ( research ) with federal dollars. Of course there are about a million other things that should NOT be funded with federal tax dollars also.

[golfhobo]

Okay, Ridge! You got me on a "technicality." I should have said FUNDING...

Anyway, here's an interesting article I missed on STATE funding for research!

http://www.reason.com/news/show/34993.html

Funny thing.... just when I thought you'd "hijacked" this thread.... it turns out (see the article) that this really IS a war we just might win! :lol: