The Changing Industry

[str.whl.hldr]

Although I do appreciate the, don't just abandon the truck and move on with your life pay, such as breakdown pay, detention pay (if your lucky), layover pay...


I want the company not to insulate itself against the countless foreseeable and unforeseeable loss of productivity issues that it shields itself from by not putting a value on my time

In till that happens this industry will be filled with, well, the undesirables.

Guys that drink on job or in the truck, ask for drugs or prostitutes on the CB, job hop, have very low standards of health and hygiene, have mental health issues, and some that are sociopaths. ( the other day I saw a driver at the rest stop with a dash full of doll heads leering at ALL the females, kids too)


There are companies in this industry that keep the standards and pay very low- comparative to liability, work hardships, hours...- by they're labor trafficking. How people think they will make a decent living at 26 cents a mile, HHG nonetheless, is beyond me.


All anyone has to do is look at the difference in the way local truck drivers are payed compared to the way irregular route carriers do, to know which employee is valued more.


At 80 hrs a week most people could average $15 dollars a hr doing all but the lowest forms of work, without the liability issues. This is an industry where companies under 75% turnover can boast. I guess the former employees made it big in the trucking biz and retired.

Unless things change, companies will get what they pay for. I see them everyday at the T/S.

[belpre122]

Excellent post str.whl.hldr!

[GMAN]

Higher pay will not change someones work ethic. Either someone has a good work ethic or they don't. If a driver, or anyone else for that matter, has a good work ethic, they will advance in pay and opportunities with most companies. Drivers are their own worst enemies. They expect top pay starting out without proving their worth to the company. Most will not stick around long enough to receive the higher pay. It isn't always the fault of the carrier. Drivers need to take responsibility for their own career path. The better companies will steer clear of those who don't stick around long. Job hoppers will never get the top pay. We don't talk much about work ethics. I have seen janitors and others on the bottom of the economic scale who take pride in their work. These people have a good work ethic. Some will gain an education while doing a good job at minimum wage. These people have something to offer an employer. I have also seen others who will barely do what they must to keep their job. They find all sorts of excuses as to why they should not stay with their employer or do a good job. They may say something to the effect that if they were paid more that they would do a better job. That is simply not the truth. These people will not do a job at any price. If you want to make more money as a company driver then you need to have a good work ethic. Plan on staying with an employer for at least a year or two. I have seen many new drivers come on this forum and talk about going with a "starter company." They will only stick around long enough and then go to another carrier. They don't look at the big picture. I have met people with these so called "starter" companies who are earning big paychecks. But they stuck around after they got their training and proved their worth to their carrier. There is no need to pay someone top pay who is only going to be with you for a few months only to go somewhere else for a few months. I think that if new drivers had a different attitude about starting out they would find the pay increase. Starting pay with these starter companies is low. If you look at it as someone paying you to learn a job, then the pay isn't so bad. Carriers assume a lot of risk when they put an inexperienced driver in a big truck.

[bigtimba]

Alright, GMAN, here I go again . .

I was issued a new truck last Thursday. I had "taken the day off" to get everything moved from old to new and to get myself situated. I didn't get paid for it though I should have been as it was certainly in the companies interest. Oh well.

I got up Friday morning and didn't have any fuel. I requested some, got some and began my 14 hour clock with the fill up at 0700. Ready, willing and able to go and, in the eyes of the DOT, on line 4, supposedly. I waited a little while and got a preplan with a wide open pick up window, 1000 - 1800.

Stop right there. You know what that means. If I get there and there's no one waiting, I'm in, loaded and on my way. If there are a few trucks waiting I have to give up my two hour grace period. If there's a pantload of trucks waiting, I give up my two hours and with the grace of God, detention might kick in. There is no expectation of efficiency because the odds are pretty good the driver won't get paid. The incentive is reflected proportionately to the benefit or consequences. Don't get me wrong. The forklift driver will be running his ass off as long as there are trucks to load. His employer is paying him and needs him to be efficient.

It was a live load and it required an empty, obviously. This terminal assigns empties on the basis of pick up time and I was told not to expect one until the back end of the pick up window.

Stop right there. The company was ready and willing to have me sit for 9 - 10 - 11 hours because it was convenient though not at all necessary. I wasn't costing them anything, right? I explained that my 14 hour clock was ticking and under this scenario, I wouldn't be able to run the load. The response? What about a split sleeper?

How do you like that? Not "Then we'll get right on it!" The default response was to further inconvenience me and to perpertrate a felony while we're at it. Do you think that would have happened if I was getting paid and that the schmuck had someone breathing down his neck to see that he was working efficiently as opposed to conveniently?

I've been at this for awhile and was able to get around it thanks only to my experience and managed to lose only a couple of unpaid hours.

The problem is that these frauds and felonies are perpertraded on the new and inexperienced and experienced but ignorant Drivers, everyday. They don't know any better. All they know is that it means miles and what difference does it make if I start this load at noon or midnight.

You and I both know that these shanannigans go on everyday. It happens at every company and it represents an enormous amount of money. If that crap was converted to cost and that cost was reflected in freight rates, there would be no such thing as cheap freight.

In my world, whether the Driver was brand spanking new, or me, if we were being paid, the appropriate and efficient solution would always be the default. If all the individual cogs are working efficiently then the whole machine works more efficiently. In the business world, that means more money.

In your world, there will always be bad apples conspiring to subvert the interests of the employer and you conclude it could never work. Better aka fairer pay will NOT attract and retain better employees and, in the long run it's in everyone's interest to hang on to the lowest common denominator at the expense of the top performers.

The ignorant stay, the disgruntled regurgitate themselves and the fools like me try to get things changed.

[GMAN]

I won't disagree with you about some shippers wasting the drivers time. I rarely sit for very long without letting the shipper know that I am on the clock. I don't want my drivers sitting waiting to get loaded or unloaded, either. I think in a perfect world we would collect detention from a shipper or consignee for sitting for extended periods of time. Unfortunately, there aren't enough carriers and owner operators who are willing to stand their ground on this issue. Unless a carrier collects detention from the shipper or consignee he cannot afford to pay the drivers. It is basic economics. You cannot pay out more than you collect in. Margins are very slim in most segments of this industry. The way I usually handle it is that if a shipper keeps me waiting for an unreasonable time and refuses to compensate me for my time, then I won't haul for them again.

There are ways to split your sleep berth and make it work, but when you sit for extended periods of time you are not going to feel like running very long. I won't run when I am too tired. I also don't expect any of my drivers to drive beyond what they feel is safe. I would rather lose a load than take a chance of having an accident and someone getting hurt.

I think most drivers want to do a good job. They know that if they are not running they are not making money. The problem comes in with the minority of those who waste time, abuse their equipment, etc., Unfortunately, we all pay a price for their inefficiency and abuse. The one area that we can agree is that there are those who waste our time and we should be compensated for that waste. On the other hand, with the slackers that will not happen in most cases.

There are some things which are part of the job description, such as doing logs, fueling your truck, checking oil, tires, etc., We could break it down into smaller increments where the driver would be paid for doing those things, but the total pay would likely not increase. From the employers point of view, there is no way to know for sure that the driver checks the oil, tires, etc., until you see the evidence such as irregular tire wear.

We all want to make more money. If the driver wants more equitable pay, then he should seek a company who would pay him a percentage of the line-haul rate. I keep coming back to this method of compensation, but if a driver thinks the company is making too much money or he isn't getting a fair share of the profits, then he would find out very quickly what they are making and he would be getting his FAIR share of the revenue by taking a percentage rather than running by mileage. The more the company makes, the greater his compensation.

[str.whl.hldr]

Originally Posted by GMAN

Higher pay will not change someones work ethic. Either someone has a good work ethic or they don't.

I completely agree. But I was referring to the low pay equals lowly employees and high turnover.

Originally Posted by GMAN

If you want to make more money as a company driver then you need to have a good work ethic. .

Or just have more miles if on mileage pay.

Originally Posted by GMAN

Starting pay with these starter companies is low. If you look at it as someone paying you to learn a job, then the pay isn't so bad. Carriers assume a lot of risk when they put an inexperienced driver in a big truck.

One of the few reasons I haven't left the industry. BUT most company drivers end up working hrs that are uncompensated. That alone shifts even more of the true cost of doing business on the driver. Working six hours for $5 will make any one question their employment. Happens all the time. And for someone with many choices it stings the pride.

[GMAN]

If you hang in there and learn your craft you will see the bigger paychecks. There will always be those who want to start out at the top even though they have little or no skills. This is a profession where proficiency comes with doing. You can't learn how to drive a truck out of a book. You can learn how to pass the written test out of a book. The only way to learn how to drive is to get behind the wheel and practice. The longer you practice the better you will become at your job.

[BlooMoose]

It's that way with anything you do, really. You will never take the next step up the ladder if you are constantly returning to the bottom rung. I have seen that in my life, anyway. I have waffled between two careers and have never excelled (financially) in either as I would have if I had stayed with one.

[GMAN]

There are too many people who expect to be paid top pay when they first start out. They have little or no education, little or no experience, yet expect top pay. It takes time to learn a craft or trade. Any job you do requires a learning curve. Some professions take longer than others. It isn't difficult to learn the basics of this business, but it does take time to hone your driving skills. Anyone who drives the roads can attest to that.

[Walking Eagle]

GMAN and BlooMoose are right you have to earn the right to be able to demand, and get, the higher paying jobs. You also have to be able to handle what that high paying job entails ! When I started I was in a cab over (that was older than I was) and a 40 foot flat and worked my way up. Very often today I drive along thinking "what if they had put me in something like this way back then ?" I would probably have killed a lot of people including me
With any job you have to start at the bottom and work your way thru the lumps.
If I was to apply to Swift or Werner or ???????? now they wouldn't offer me the .28 CPM (or whatever their starting is) (not that I am going to ) it would be "based on experience".
Stick with it and build that experience and then you can get the better paying possitions.

[BIG JEEP on 44's]

Originally Posted by GMAN

If you hang in there and learn your craft you will see the bigger paychecks. There will always be those who want to start out at the top even though they have little or no skills. This is a profession where proficiency comes with doing. You can't learn how to drive a truck out of a book. You can learn how to pass the written test out of a book. The only way to learn how to drive is to get behind the wheel and practice. The longer you practice the better you will become at your job.

This is truck driving you can add a vail of mystique an mystery to it ...but it's not a trade that takes years to master ...For most on here only pulling dry van I would say 6mo-1yr and you pretty much learned your craft... Not trying to discredit you I'm just saying the job is pretty well mastered in 1yr sufficiently so a company should'nt be able to justify a driver only earning 25-30k and working 24/7 for 4-7wks by claiming it's a rookie wage thus a fair one.

[Twilight Flyer]

Keeping the whole monetary issue out of it, I've heard it said many times that as soon as you think you're a master at your craft (driving), then it's time to get off the road because you're a danger to yourself and to the motoring public.

I agree that when you hit that magical year of experience, you should not be considered a rookie and your pay should increase drastically. But at 1 year, you are nowhere near a master at your craft, not only in driving but in anything. I've talked to 30 years drivers who say the same thing about their experience. When you think you know it all, you're in trouble.

Just sayin'

[navydad]

Originally Posted by Twilight Flyer

Keeping the whole monetary issue out of it, I've heard it said many times that as soon as you think you're a master at your craft (driving), then it's time to get off the road because you're a danger to yourself and to the motoring public.

I agree that when you hit that magical year of experience, you should not be considered a rookie and your pay should increase drastically. But at 1 year, you are nowhere near a master at your craft, not only in driving but in anything. I've talked to 30 years drivers who say the same thing about their experience. When you think you know it all, you're in trouble.

Just sayin'

You know, we hear this conversation out on the road everyday and I ask the driver saying it, you still learn about truck driving every day, What have you learned today. You know what the answer is, I don’t know but I learned something.... lol this is just my opinion but after 30 yrs I have been driving its just the same thing, but a different day!!! Now I ask you TF, what did you learn yesterday?????? I also believe you cant master your craft in 1 yr also!!!

[BIG JEEP on 44's]

Originally Posted by Twilight Flyer

Keeping the whole monetary issue out of it, I've heard it said many times that as soon as you think you're a master at your craft (driving), then it's time to get off the road because you're a danger to yourself and to the motoring public.

I agree that when you hit that magical year of experience, you should not be considered a rookie and your pay should increase drastically. But at 1 year, you are nowhere near a master at your craft, not only in driving but in anything. I've talked to 30 years drivers who say the same thing about their experience. When you think you know it all, you're in trouble.

Just sayin'

Well I wouldn't say any one person knows every subtle nuance about every aspect of driving I don't ...But let's be real if you're pulling a dry van it's not a 30yr science to master the task ... you either can or can't dirve well ...I've asked a few drivers to elaborate on their specifics of what major awe inspring things in trucking take more than a couple years to grasp sufficetnly well after making a statement like...I've been driving for 30yrs and i'm still a rookie, and I've yet to be enlightened with an aswer supprting the statement ...

[GMAN]

Originally Posted by BIG JEEP on 44's

This is truck driving you can add a vail of mystique an mystery to it ...but it's not a trade that takes years to master ...For most on here only pulling dry van I would say 6mo-1yr and you pretty much learned your craft... Not trying to discredit you I'm just saying the job is pretty well mastered in 1yr sufficiently so a company should'nt be able to justify a driver only earning 25-30k and working 24/7 for 4-7wks by claiming it's a rookie wage thus a fair one.

I don't think someone with a year of experience should still be considered a rookie, but I don't think they have mastered this trade, either. You can learn the basics in a year but I would not consider that as having mastered the profession. It doesn't take all that long to learn the basics, but becoming proficient takes a while. I doubt you will find many in this industry who will be earning less than $35,000 after a year. Most should earn between $30-35,000 their first year. Their level of compensation will increase with their experience, as it should. I have thought for some time that we need to have different levels of drivers based upon their skill level and experience. It would make it easier for carriers to evaluate drivers. Most carriers primarily base their pay on two factors. They pay based upon the years of experience in the industry and how long the driver has been with the carrier. It isn't a bad way to do it but I think that the better drivers should be evaluated a little differently. If a driver is more proficient, then he should be compensated accordingly. At this point, that isn't necessarily the case. Part of the problem is with the drivers themselves. They don't get their way about something and they are off to the next company. Rather than trying to work things out with their current employer they just get angry and leave. It is easy to complain about the low pay in this industry. I don't think that is true. Pay is low the first year, but that should be expected in any new endeavor. On the other hand, there aren't many new jobs where you can train for a few weeks and earn $30-35,000 your first year without a degree or formal training other than a few weeks of driving school. There aren't many jobs where you are in so much control of your income as a truck driver. Most carriers pay by the mile. The more miles you drive the bigger your paycheck. You are not limited by an hourly wage. For the most part, you decide when you run. With most jobs, you come in and punch a clock at a certain time and clock out at a certain time. There are few jobs where you can exercise that much control over your job and income. That doesn't mean that you have no one to answer to, but it does offer flexibility. There are drawbacks to the business, as with any other. There are some things I would like to see changed. That would be true with any industry. You are not going to find the perfect job. It doesn't exist. You are not going to be happy 100% of the time with any job. You just find one that has more things you like than dislike.

[GMAN]

Originally Posted by bigtimba

Alright, GMAN, here I go again . .

I was issued a new truck last Thursday. I had "taken the day off" to get everything moved from old to new and to get myself situated. I didn't get paid for it though I should have been as it was certainly in the companies interest. Oh well.

The company gave you a new truck to drive and you are upset that they would not pay you to take your personal items out of the old truck and put them into the new truck? I would be thrilled to have the new truck.

Originally Posted by bigtimba

Stop right there. You know what that means. If I get there and there's no one waiting, I'm in, loaded and on my way. If there are a few trucks waiting I have to give up my two hour grace period. If there's a pantload of trucks waiting, I give up my two hours and with the grace of God, detention might kick in. There is no expectation of efficiency because the odds are pretty good the driver won't get paid. The incentive is reflected proportionately to the benefit or consequences. Don't get me wrong. The forklift driver will be running his ass off as long as there are trucks to load. His employer is paying him and needs him to be efficient.

It was a live load and it required an empty, obviously. This terminal assigns empties on the basis of pick up time and I was told not to expect one until the back end of the pick up window.

I agree that there are shippers who waste our time. This is something that the ATA should address with their members. If most carriers went along with this then things would change. Unless the majority agreed to make this part of their agreement with shippers things will not change. Carriers should be compensated when their trucks are kept waiting excessively. Drivers should also be compensated for having their time wasted. However, carriers cannot afford to pay drivers to sit when they are not being compensated. Until the industry stands up on this issue things will not change. I pay my drivers percentage. If we collect detention then the driver receives his fair share of that revenue. It is an industry challenge.

Originally Posted by bigtimba

The problem is that these frauds and felonies are perpertraded on the new and inexperienced and experienced but ignorant Drivers, everyday. They don't know any better. All they know is that it means miles and what difference does it make if I start this load at noon or midnight.

You and I both know that these shanannigans go on everyday. It happens at every company and it represents an enormous amount of money. If that crap was converted to cost and that cost was reflected in freight rates, there would be no such thing as cheap freight.

In my world, whether the Driver was brand spanking new, or me, if we were being paid, the appropriate and efficient solution would always be the default. If all the individual cogs are working efficiently then the whole machine works more efficiently. In the business world, that means more money.

I disagree that this happens at EVERY company. I have NEVER expected any of my drivers to run illegally. NEVER!! I agree that there are some who do, but not all. It is up to the driver to say no.

Originally Posted by bigtimba

In your world, there will always be bad apples conspiring to subvert the interests of the employer and you conclude it could never work. Better aka fairer pay will NOT attract and retain better employees and, in the long run it's in everyone's interest to hang on to the lowest common denominator at the expense of the top performers.

The ignorant stay, the disgruntled regurgitate themselves and the fools like me try to get things changed.

There are good drivers and bad. I don't think there are always bad apples conspiring to do anything against their employers. There are enough to impact the industry in a negative way. There are sufficient numbers where paying an hourly wage for all their time will not work. When people are paid by the hour there is no incentive for them to perform at peak levels. They will only do what is necessary to keep their jobs. Not all, but some. Some people will do their best no matter what they are paid. Better pay is earned based upon the employee's performance, as it should. Other than detention for excessive waiting times at shippers, I don't see that there is anything that is unfair about the pay. And with detention, the carrier cannot afford to pay detention unless they collect it. If an employee will not do his best at the lower wage then there is no expectation that paying him more will enhance his job performance. Employers will pay top performers more than those who perform at mediocre levels. Paying drivers mileage or on percentage works for both the driver and carrier. It provides compensation for performance and has accountability. The only area I see that should be addressed is detention time. That needs to be addressed by the industry as a whole.

[Part Time Dweller]

Most companies are moving toward eliminating long haul runs and going more to the short to medium haul freight. That's where the money is. Technically, it's been where the money has been for a long time.

That is where the money is for the companies maybe, as long as drivers are paid piecework style, as in mileage pay. But in reality the driver takes it up the ***** sitting in docks twice a day and trying to stay within the 14 hour rule.

[GMAN]

A lot of carriers who pull vans do drop and hook. That maximizes the drivers time and minimizes his down time.

[Part Time Dweller]

Many don't.And we all know that the load is always ready when the driver arrives to.:rolleyes:

I know you own trucks Gman and take full advantage of the free labor provided by your drivers. You may be able to sugarcoat it with your employees, but many of us know who makes the Big $$ off the piecemeal pay system.

[GMAN]

Originally Posted by Part Time Dweller

Many don't.And we all know that the load is always ready when the driver arrives to.:rolleyes:

I know you own trucks Gman and take full advantage of the free labor provided by your drivers. You may be able to sugarcoat it with your employees, but many of us know who makes the Big $$ off the piecemeal pay system.

My drivers don't work for free. I pay a percentage of everything the truck makes except the fuel surcharge. You should not assume things about my business that you have no way of knowing. I just paid one driver over $1,400 last week. I doubt that he feels he is working for free or minimum wage. :rolleyes: