§395.13 Drivers declared out of service

[Musicman]

Any input on the below rule? In the past, I’ve had discussions with many a safety director who refused to believe that your log did not have to be current, but in 395.13 (b)(3) is clearly states that you may not be placed out of service for not having a current log. Anybody ever try quoting this one to the DOT when being harassed about not having a current log? I know many claim to have put out of service for not having started the current day’s log. If not put out of service, can you still be fined?


(b) Out of Service criteria. (1) No driver shall drive after being on duty in excess of the maximum periods permitted by this part.

(b)(2) No driver required to maintain a record of duty status under §395.8 or §395.15 of this part shall fail to have a record of duty status current on the day of examination and for the prior 7 consecutive days.

(b)(3) Exception. A driver failing only to have possession of a record of duty status current on the day of examination and the prior day, but has completed records of duty status up to that time (previous 6 days), will be given the opportunity to make the duty status record current.

[Rev.Vassago]

Any input on the below rule? In the past, I’ve had discussions with many a safety director who refused to believe that your log did not have to be current, but in 395.13 (b)(3) is clearly states that you may not be placed out of service for not having a current log. Anybody ever try quoting this one to the DOT when being harassed about not having a current log? I know many claim to have put out of service for not having started the current day’s log. If not put out of service, can you still be fined?

As it states, if you have everything but today and yesterday, then DOT must allow you to bring your status current. They will then give you a nice ticket for not having a current status. Just because they have to allow you to bring your status current doesn't exempt you from getting a fine for not having it that way when you were first examined by them.

[DaveP]

As it states, if you have everything but today and yesterday, then DOT must allow you to bring your status current. They will then give you a nice ticket for not having a current status. Just because they have to allow you to bring your status current doesn't exempt you from getting a fine for not having it that way when you were first examined by them.


Exactly right.

I have the $115 receipt from my fine in PA to prove it.

[Musicman]

I assumed they could still fine you... important thing though is no out of service. I've been lucky, and only been DOTed four times in ten years, but I'm also lazy about keeping my log current, so this is good information to know. I've known about this reg for years but have never tried using it on an officer. I have argued the point with a few safety officers of companies I've been leased to and none of them knew that this reg was in the book.

[Myth_Buster]

Better read that carefully:

(b) Out of Service criteria. (1) No driver shall drive after being on duty in excess of the maximum periods permitted by this part.

(b)(2) No driver required to maintain a record of duty status under §395.8 or §395.15 of this part shall fail to have a record of duty status current on the day of examination and for the prior 7 consecutive days.

(b)(3) Exception. A driver failing only to have possession of a record of duty status current on the day of examination and the prior day, but has completed records of duty status up to that time (previous 6 days), will be given the opportunity to make the duty status record current.

You have to understand you have to read the entire regulation:

§395.13 Drivers declared out of service.

(a) Authority to declare drivers Out of Service. Every special agent of the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration (as defined in Appendix B to this subchapter) is authorized to declare a driver out of service and to notify the motor carrier of that declaration, upon finding at the time and place of examination that the driver has violated the out of service criteria as set forth in paragraph (b) of this section.

(b) Out of Service criteria. (1) No driver shall drive after being on duty in excess of the maximum periods permitted by this part.

(b)(2) No driver required to maintain a record of duty status under §395.8 or §395.15 of this part shall fail to have a record of duty status current on the day of examination and for the prior 7 consecutive days.

(b)(3) Exception. A driver failing only to have possession of a record of duty status current on the day of examination and the prior day, but has completed records of duty status up to that time (previous 6 days), will be given the opportunity to make the duty status record current.

IOW, if today is Wednesday and you have an entry for sometime on Tuesday, you may catch the log up and will be subject to any penaties associated for the log not being current; however, if the last enty was sometime on Monday, you're OOS.

Be safe.

[Rev.Vassago]

IOW, if today is Wednesday and you have an entry for sometime on Tuesday, you may catch the log up and will be subject to any penaties associated for the log not being current; however, if the last enty was sometime on Monday, you're OOS.

Technically, if your last entry was midnight on Monday, then you couldn't be put OOS (because Monday's log would be complete, and only Tuesday and Wednesday would be incomplete, thereby fulfilling the "6 days complete" requirement for the exception).

[Orangetxguy]

Technically, if your last entry was midnight on Monday, then you couldn't be put OOS (because Monday's log would be complete, and only Tuesday and Wednesday would be incomplete, thereby fulfilling the "6 days complete" requirement for the exception).


You are forgetting...the log for tuesday HAD to be started, to qualify.

[Bandit102]

Best just to keep them rather current, isn't it? I keep mine on the laptop. Current up to the second.

[Musicman]

Best just to keep them rather current, isn't it? I keep mine on the laptop. Current up to the second.

Unless they have changed the rules without letting anyone but you know, you are not allowed to use a laptop to do your log. Werner, of course is special, so it gets an exception. I direct you to the following regulation:

§395.8 Driver's record of duty status.

(f)(2) Entries made by driver only. All entries relating to driver's duty status must be legible and in the driver's own handwriting.

You have one of those nifty notebooks you can write on with a light pen? I doubt they would accept it, but at least it would be in your own handwriting.

[Windwalker]

Unless they have changed the rules without letting anyone but you know, you are not allowed to use a laptop to do your log. Werner, of course is special, so it gets an exception. I direct you to the following regulation:

§395.8 Driver's record of duty status.

(f)(2) Entries made by driver only. All entries relating to driver's duty status must be legible and in the driver's own handwriting.

You have one of those nifty notebooks you can write on with a light pen? I doubt they would accept it, but at least it would be in your own handwriting.
Guess you might like to go to this link... http://www.driversdailylog.com/images/fmcsa04Jan2002p3.gif
Also, this one... http://www.driversdailylog.com/ddllegal.htm

There is a letter available that is signed by USDOT, FMCSA, that says Driver's Daily Log is legal to use. That means your logging on a laptop IS legal.

I've been DOT'ed a number of times, and never once did any of them say one word about my logs being illegal on a laptop. As a matter of fact, the comments they make about my logs is more on the order of "THEY LIKE THEM... THEY CAN READ THEM." Logging on a laptop is legal, not only in the USA, but in Canada as well.

[Rev.Vassago]

Unless they have changed the rules without letting anyone but you know, you are not allowed to use a laptop to do your log. Werner, of course is special, so it gets an exception. I direct you to the following regulation:

§395.8 Driver's record of duty status.

(f)(2) Entries made by driver only. All entries relating to driver's duty status must be legible and in the driver's own handwriting.

You have one of those nifty notebooks you can write on with a light pen? I doubt they would accept it, but at least it would be in your own handwriting.

From the interpretation for §395.8:

Question 28: May a driver use a computer to generate his or her record of duty status (log book) and then manually sign the computer printouts in lieu of handwritten logs?

Guidance: A driver may use a computer to generate the graph grid and entries for the record of duty status or log book, provided the computer-generated output includes the minimum information required by §395.8 (http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.asp?section=395.8#) and is formatted in accordance with the rules. In addition, the driver must:


1. Be capable of printing the record of duty status for the current 24-hour period at the request of an enforcement officer.


2. Print the record of duty status at the end of each 24-hour period, and sign it in his or her handwriting to certify that all entries required by this section are true and correct.


3. Maintain a copy of printed and signed records of duty status for the previous 7 consecutive days and make it available for inspection at the request of an enforcement officer.

[Musicman]

Okay, it looks like I stand corrected. They should update the regs then, but of course this is the federal government we are talking about, the world's most expensive broken machine.

[Musicman]

From the interpretation for §395.8:

Sounds like about twice as much work as keeping a regular log to me. I'm all for using tech where it makes sense, but not when it complicates things. If you have to print and sign every day, it's just as big a hassel as writing one up. Not to mention that I refuse to drive with my notebook booted up... too big a risk for HD damage that way.

[Musicman]

Not only that, but why would I use a log keeping system that makes it EASIER for the DOT to see if I have a logging error? This is absolute lunacy!

From DDL website, instructions to DOT officers:

2. To open DDL Software, click on the icon on the desktop
3. To see a list of violations, click on the Violation icon located on the toolbar.
4. To see a recap of what the driver has done in the past 60/7 days or if the driver is a
70/8days, click on Details button located on the right side under Recap.
5. Violations will also show up in the “yellow” zone on the grid. “No Driving in the
Yellow”
6. A list stating the violation(s), section violated, and time/date violation began will be
listed in the remarks section.
7. You can see current up to the minute drivers information by clicking on Drivers Info
icon.
8. You may print any logs or details for a copy to attach to the citation.

[allan5oh]

So essentially you can have todays and yesterdays logs incomplete(or not even started), but the previous 6 done, and they cannot put you OOS? I know Canada is much more strict.

But when are you "in service"? When your logs are done? That's one things about regs, they state when you are OOS, but not always when you are in service. The way I read it, as soon as you're caught up, you're good to go.

Also, where is the regs regarding fines for not being up to date?

[Rev.Vassago]

So essentially you can have todays and yesterdays logs incomplete(or not even started), but the previous 6 done, and they cannot put you OOS?

Correct. They can still cite you, however.

But when are you "in service"? When your logs are done? That's one things about regs, they state when you are OOS, but not always when you are in service.

Any time you are not OOS, you are "in service".

The way I read it, as soon as you're caught up, you're good to go.

After they are done writing the ticket, of course.;)

Also, where is the regs regarding fines for not being up to date?

Fines vary from state to state.

[Musicman]

So essentially you can have todays and yesterdays logs incomplete(or not even started), but the previous 6 done, and they cannot put you OOS? I know Canada is much more strict.

But when are you "in service"? When your logs are done? That's one things about regs, they state when you are OOS, but not always when you are in service. The way I read it, as soon as you're caught up, you're good to go.

Also, where is the regs regarding fines for not being up to date?

Unless otherwise noted by the officer who put you out of service, you best not move your truck until an officer says it's ok. I know I got put OOS in OR and the officer told me when my time was up I could hit the road, but if you are caught moving when you should be shut down your ass, wallet, and freedom are in serious jeapardy.

[allan5oh]

I know in Canada if you're not up to date, they can place you OOS up to 72 hours.

[Myth_Buster]

allan5oh:

But when are you "in service"? When your logs are done? That's one things about regs, they state when you are OOS, but not always when you are in service. The way I read it, as soon as you're caught up, you're good to go.

Minimum OOS for a log being two days behind is 10 hours... If your log is semi current and you have a HOS violations with some sleeper berth you maybe placed OOS for eight hours or as little as two hours.

Also, where is the regs regarding fines for not being up to date?

The FMCSR are federal regulations adopted by each state and enforced by state officers. Penalties when cited by state officers are listed by state.

Currently there are only about 650 federal FMCSA inspectors that perform roadside inspections. The majority of those work full time on the border between Mexico and the US. If you are cited for a violation by a federal officer you are subject to the penalties listed in Appendix B of Part 386:

386appnB (http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.asp?rule_toc=755&section=Appendix%20B&section_toc=109785)

(a)(1) Recordkeeping. A person or entity that fails to prepare or maintain a record required by parts 40, 382, 385, and 390-99 of this subchapter, or prepares or maintains a required record that is incomplete, inaccurate, or false, is subject to a maximum civil penalty of $1,000 for each day the violation continues, up to $10,000.

(a)(2) Knowing falsification of records. A person or entity that knowingly falsifies, destroys, mutilates, or changes a report or record required by parts 382, 385, and 390-99 of this subchapter, knowingly makes or causes to be made a false or incomplete record about an operation or business fact or transaction, or knowingly makes, prepares, or preserves a record in violation of a regulation or order of the Secretary is subject to a maximum civil penalty of $10,000 if such action misrepresents a fact that constitutes a violation other than a reporting or recordkeeping violation.

(a)(3) Non-recordkeeping violations. A person or entity that violates parts 382, 385, or 390-99 of this subchapter, except a recordkeeping requirement, is subject to a civil penalty not to exceed $11,000 for each violation.

(a)(4) Non-recordkeeping violations by drivers. A driver who violates parts 382, 385, and 390-99 of this subchapter, except a recordkeeping violation, is subject to a civil penalty not to exceed $2,750.

(a)(5) Violation of 49 CFR 392.5. A driver placed out of service for 24 hours for violating the alcohol prohibitions of 49 CFR 392.5(a) or (b) who drives during that period is subject to a civil penalty not to exceed $3,750 for each violation.

(b) Commercial driver's license (CDL) violations. Any person who violates 49 CFR part 383, subparts B, C, E, F, G, or H is subject to a civil penalty of $3,750.

The above is a small sample of federal penalties... :)

Musicman:

Unless otherwise noted by the officer who put you out of service, you best not move your truck until an officer says it's ok. I know I got put OOS in OR and the officer told me when my time was up I could hit the road, but if you are caught moving when you should be shut down your ass, wallet, and freedom are in serious jeapardy.

Correct, the roadside inspection report will identify the time you are allowed to continue driving. Leave before that time? You now face running an OOS violation with more penalties. By-the-by, many weigh stations are now under video survielliance, so they know if you leave early... They just mail you the OOS ticket.

Be safe.

[golfhobo]

allan5oh:



Minimum OOS for a log being two days behind is 10 hours...

That's not what he asked. And if it IS the answer to what he asked, then there is no use in allowing a driver to "catch up his logs."

By-the-by, many weigh stations are now under video survielliance, so they know if you leave early... They just mail you the OOS ticket.

Be safe.

Since the purpose of OOS for log violations, or not having them current, is that the officer cannot be sure any other way that the driver is rested before operating a CMV, then wouldn't this "mailing it in" make the DOT an accomplice if the driver drives off and kills someone? If they are interested in protecting the public..... they better jump in their little scooters and chase him down.




filler, filler, filler.....

[GMAN]

It seems to me that it would be better to just keep your log current and then you would not need to test the law.

[Jackrabbit379]

:lol:

How long does it take to get your pen out of your shirt pocket, and draw a couple lines. :p

[Windwalker]

Not only that, but why would I use a log keeping system that makes it EASIER for the DOT to see if I have a logging error? This is absolute lunacy!

From DDL website, instructions to DOT officers:

2. To open DDL Software, click on the icon on the desktop
3. To see a list of violations, click on the Violation icon located on the toolbar.
4. To see a recap of what the driver has done in the past 60/7 days or if the driver is a
70/8days, click on Details button located on the right side under Recap.
5. Violations will also show up in the “yellow” zone on the grid. “No Driving in the
Yellow”
6. A list stating the violation(s), section violated, and time/date violation began will be
listed in the remarks section.
7. You can see current up to the minute drivers information by clicking on Drivers Info
icon.
8. You may print any logs or details for a copy to attach to the citation.
Perhaps, you should try it yourself. There are some very real advantages to using a laptop to maintain your logs. For one thing, you don't get to pay a fine for a very simple mistake in addition. Makes hand-written logs seem like the STONE AGE.

[Musicman]

Perhaps, you should try it yourself. There are some very real advantages to using a laptop to maintain your logs. For one thing, you don't get to pay a fine for a very simple mistake in addition. Makes hand-written logs seem like the STONE AGE.

First, I don't make mistakes in addition. Second, as I have said already, I will never, ever do something that makes the DOTs job easier. I do keep extremely neat logs and that may help them, but that's it. Most DOT officers I've encountered are either too lazy to do the math, not capable or don’t care. I don't run a recap with my logs for that very same reason. Nine times out of ten, they take my logs, thumb through the book, hand it back to me and tell me to have a nice day.

I agree with Gman and a few others here that the whole concept of logbooks and hours of service is counterproductive to safety, and I refuse to make the enforcement of those regulations covering such any easier than it already is.

[zipy46]

What about the 'safe haven' rule ?

You can go past your 11/14 in order to find a parking spot after unloading or picking up.

eh ??

[Rev.Vassago]

What about the 'safe haven' rule ?

You can go past your 11/14 in order to find a parking spot after unloading or picking up.

eh ??

The only time you are allowed to exceed the 11/14 rule is when there is adverse driving conditions existing which a motor carrier could not have known about prior to dispatching the driver, and in that case, it can only be up to 2 hours beyond the 11/14, and it must have been possible to complete the trip within the 11/14 hours if the adverse driving conditions were not present.

As far as "safe haven", that applies to certain HM commodities when leaving the vehicle unattended.

There is no regulation for "finding a parking spot after getting loaded or unloaded".

[golfhobo]

Rev.Vassago said:


The only time you are allowed to exceed the 11 hour rule is when there are adverse driving conditions existing which a motor carrier could not have known about prior to dispatching the driver, and in that case, it can only be up to 2 hours beyond the 11 hour rule, and it must have been possible to complete the trip within the 11/14 hours if the adverse driving conditions were not present. You cannot exceed the 14 hour rule, even under adverse driving conditions.


There ya go.... FIXED it for you, Rev! As you have said, those two rules are separate, and in this case, not equally applicable.

Here's the reference, if you want to refresh your memory:

395.1 (http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.asp?section=395.1)

;):thumbsup::moon::lol::lol:

[Rev.Vassago]

There ya go.... FIXED it for you, Rev! As you have said, those two rules are separate, and in this case, not equally applicable.

Here's the reference, if you want to refresh your memory:


So sayeth the guy who thinks that road construction is an "adverse driving condition".

[golfhobo]

So sayeth the guy who thinks that road construction is an "adverse driving condition".

You wanna QUOTE me on that? I believe I was talking about a road "closure." If it had anything to do with construction, it was like when the I-470 overpass dropped onto the interstate in Colorado.

Road construction is an expected part of the deal. If dispatchers don't know about it, drivers should. But, occaisionally, roads are CLOSED without notice for temporary construction requirements. At THIS time, the adverse driving condition WOULD apply if needed. (unless the driver sees a sign warning him of it before he gets TO it.) If he is PAST the last exit BEFORE they close the road, and he is stuck there, the adverse driving exemption applies, within the allowable regulations which you misquoted, of course.

[Rev.Vassago]

You wanna QUOTE me on that? I believe I was talking about a road "closure."

You were talking about road closures due to construction.

If it had anything to do with construction, it was like when the I-470 overpass dropped onto the interstate in Colorado.

You said:

The FACT is, that if I come across a "shutdown" road.... for ANY reason.... and I was not aware of it when I planned my trip, the FMCSA will allow me the exemption.

http://www.classadrivers.com/forum/rules-regulations-dac-oh-my/25678-traffic-stoppage-logbooks.html

That's a classic thread right there.

[golfhobo]

You were talking about road closures due to construction.



You said:



http://www.classadrivers.com/forum/rules-regulations-dac-oh-my/25678-traffic-stoppage-logbooks.html

That's a classic thread right there.


Yes, that WAS a good one. I don't think you ever DID realize that you were wrong on that one, (and so many others.) An overpass falling on a road, which closes it, is considered a construction road closure. The adverse driving exemption WILL be allowed. Now.... what was your point?

MY point was that you AGAIN misquoted a reg, or misinterpreted it, when answering a noobie's question. You implied that he could violate BOTH the 11 AND 14 hour rule under "adverse conditions." I corrected you (as I so often have to do,) to show that he could ONLY exceed his 11 hour rule, and NOT his 14 hour rule.

[Rev.Vassago]

MY point was that you AGAIN misquoted a reg, or misinterpreted it, when answering a noobie's question. You implied that he could violate BOTH the 11 AND 14 hour rule under "adverse conditions." I corrected you (as I so often have to do,) to show that he could ONLY exceed his 11 hour rule, and NOT his 14 hour rule.

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Especially people who made that same mistake in reg interpretation over a year ago.....

http://www.classadrivers.com/forum/rules-regulations-dac-oh-my/27698-working-after-14-hrs.html

But at least when I pointed out when you made the same mistake, I was nicer about it, and didn't come back with some snide remark like the one I just quoted from you. But I suppose I shouldn't have expected the same from you.

[Bandit102]

Keeping the logs on the laptop is SOOOO much nicer than paper logs for me. It tells me if I have any violations immediately. They can go back 3 years on my computer and find NO violations. Since I started using DDL, I've NEVER had an officer look past 1 or 2 days back.

[WHLSOFSTL726012]

As it states, if you have everything but today and yesterday, then DOT must allow you to bring your status current. They will then give you a nice ticket for not having a current status. Just because they have to allow you to bring your status current doesn't exempt you from getting a fine for not having it that way when you were first examined by them.

it says they may or will, not that they must

[Rev.Vassago]

it says they may or will, not that they must

(b)(3) Exception. A driver failing only to have possession of a record of duty status current on the day of examination and the prior day, but has completed records of duty status up to that time (previous 6 days), will be given the opportunity to make the duty status record current.