Ok people lets discuss predestination, I don't care what religion, or even if theres not one.

I will set down some rules

1) If we quote from the bible or any simular book and it is going to be more than lets say 4 versus, Just put down the versus "EX: John 3:16", That way if we are realy interested we will look at it ourselves, or maybe a web site link.

2) I cant think of any other rules.

The outcome of this is already written, except for some variables due to chance and circumstance, with free will into the equation, yet knowing the results will be the same, even if the route is altered.
I'll just read the last page.

Predestination=no free will. Since we have free will then there can be no predestination.

Or whatever we choose to do from our own free will was already predetermined? Just being facetious. This is an interesting topic and I hope it gets going.

I wonder sometimes where predetermination came from. Since God is omnipotent, omniscient, & omnipresent He sees and knows everything. God's view is not limited by time as we know it so He can see our beginning and our end. I can see where someone would say that means our outcome is predetermined but is it really? Just because He knows what we will do before we do it does not make it predetermined.

When I contemplate the great complexities of God, I never have a problem accepting being foreordained. He says he knew my name from before I was born. I can see myself with abilities to discern an outcome. I can see a Parent raise and train a child to make the right choices. Maybe the child pays the consequences for wrong choices, but if they are not fatal, the ultimate right choice, is usually made in the end.
I feel sometimes we are given Divine intervention, so the "right" outcome is made....dispite ourselves. This is "fate" in it's puerist form.

Let me use a personal example.
I was 25 years old, and racing a buddy of mine on a winding Lake Shore road. He was on a Sportster in front of me, and I was on my Triumph Bonneville. I had the superior cornering machine, and was determined to prove it. I started to really lay this Bonnie into the corners, but in a "S" curve, I couldn't recover. I was shooting off the road...and knowing I could not make the turn. There is only a second to react...you know you are going to crash....and the best you can do is try your best to pick your spot for the inevitable.
Straight in front of me is a telephone pole, and a curve road sign. All I had time for is to choose which of the two I was going to hit. Of course I chose the road sign, and leaned into it. It was going to be very close to the telephone pole as well, so I braced to make sure I didn't contact the pole.
Next thing I know, I see both the road sign and the telephone pole flash past me, and I bury the front of my Bonnie into a beach side sand dune, and come to a gentle stop. Not me, or my Bike had even the slightest scratch. How could that BE !! I was certain...CERTAIN I would have to hit something. By this time my buddy comes back looking for me. I'm by the edge of the road, bewildered by what just happened. My motorcycle tracks proved I just went between the sign and the pole...but HOW. Even surveying the scene...it seemed totally impossible. My friend and I pushed my Bonnie back up to the road and we even put it on it's very tire tracks.
There was absolutely no physical way we could fit the motorcycle on its tracks and lean the Bike or wiggle it, or in any way shape or form get it to go between the Pole and the Sign. The handle bars were actually hitting one or both, and the bulk of the bike would not fit.....yet there were the tracks....and I distinctly remember seeing I had to choose one or the other, and it would be a close call that I didn't hit them both anyway, and then seeing them flash between me.
This is one example of Divine intervention in my life. I have some even more bizarre stories, but the point I'm making is...there are some far greater things going on, and the magnificence of life is far greater than our comprehension. I see what we can accomplish, and know in my heart how much more God is capable of....and for me, mind-boggling. If I can predestine something...then I can say I have no question God can. If you measure all the combined wisdom and knowledge of man, and it equals less than the dust on the scales...what does that measure? I see the intricacy of life all around me, and it's everywhere, all the time. I have offered an example that life is there, even life we can not see, but it is there.
It's good for us to seek answers. But long as we are mortal...there are many answers we are not ready for. We are learning, and I for one would not consider a predestination as limiting my life to simple fate.

Let's say I chose to believe in God. This would mean that I have superior intellect to believe "The Truth". Wouldn't that be arrogant on my part? Since some do not choose "The Truth", it must be because there is a design flaw in human beings.

Let's say God chose me to believe in him. Is it fair that God is allowed to choose some and not others?


The reference to "The Truth" comes from John 14:6
Think about the statement, "I am The Truth" for a while and where it leads; it boggles the mind.

John 14:6 (KJV)
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

This is yet another area where the whole religious world flies apart. Either god is a simple voyeur who sits and watches things happen.. or he creates everything and makes things happen. The whole "gods will" thing must be complete fantasy?

Either EVERYTHING is predestined or NOTHING is.

Wow roadhog, that is an incredible story! And you walked away without a scratch. I have been in similar instances and can imagine how you felt sitting there after it happened.

I like the way you compared it to a parent/child relationship. That is basically what it is. God knows us better than we know ourselves. Like you said He knew our name before we were born. From His position I also believe he knows the date and time of our last breath and everything in between.

I also believe there are times when God intervenes in a life and predetermines it. The story of Moses and Pharaoh for example. The Bible explains that God hardened Pharaoh's heart and Pharaoh would not release the Israelites. This was done so that the Israelites would see God's hand in the events to follow.

I guess what is hard for me to conceive is God standing over a list and saying this one, this one, & this one will make it. These other three over here will not. That is what I see as predetermination. If that were the case then where is the free will that we were supposedly made with? God acting in a parental role standing over his creation and when appropriate interceding in it I understand.

I believe that with God's infinite knowledge of us He knows at what point in time our hearts become so hardened that we are lost. Being our Creator I guess you can say He did predetermine that in us. But I also believe until that point when we do become to hardened to believe He being the good parent never stops trying to help us take the right path. I am not sure but I think that is what you are saying in your post. If so, we agree.

Thanks,

There are many "safeguards" in place....and fortunately our time now, is only one aspect in our learning process. I think the choices will be very clear and easy to make when the time comes...for most.
There is going to be much confusion now, and frustration from deceptions, and what seems to be from a God who does not act, or care. Ride it out...now is not a good time to fight, or wish to be in the fight.