Off duty use of commercial vehicle
 

I know you can use your truck for off duty travel, can you when the trailer is attached, but is empty?

I'll let golfhobo take this one.

Specifically, I delivered and was told to go home. I was not under dispatch, I was relieved of all duties. Home was 170 miles away.

While at home, I accepted a load and now am dispatched. I have to return to where I had left 170 miles away.

As I understand the guidance, I didn't have a load from Houston, TX to Austin, TX and I used the Tractor/Trailer for personal use. I don't have to log this driving time.

Now on the return trip, I am dispatched and I have to log all 170 miles.

Or I could cheat, assuming nothing happens on the way back, and just say I never left.

Interpretation for Part 395: Hours of service of drivers

That is the guidance. Take it as you will.


My view.
Unless you normally report, physically, to the same terminal or facility every day or most every day you work you can not use a personal conveyance exception when deadheading home. If you were local and went home everyday from your last stop it could be argued that your home is your normal work reporting location, however if you are an OTR/regional driver you really do not have a normal work reporting location.

I don't see why that wouldn't apply. If you are empty and not in dispatch, and your home is only 2 and a half hours away. Now as the regs state however if you get a load while at home, you must log it leaving your home however.

Please notice the word "terminal" that appears over and over in the guidance.

It is because of this line:

How can an irregular route OTR or regional driver be said to have a normal work reporting location?

Beyond whatever way a person wishes to interpret this reg/guideline there is one other factor to consider. What is the trucking company policy on this? I know many companies do not allow, under any circumstances, the use of the truck as a personal conveyance or they do not allow the truck to be driven on anything other than line 3.

I have listened to several experts including Texas DPS Trooper Monte Dial on the "Road Dog", Sirius trucker channel about this. They all state that "unladen" means bobtail only, no trailer. I personally don't see this at all in the regulation or the interpretation but that is the way DOT interprets it. Also, I have heard some of the so-called experts that state that only owner/operators can take this, others state that anyone can as long as they have an authorization letter from their carrier.

If I bobtail from my house to the dealer to get my truck serviced do I have to log it? Why I ask is I was stopped for speeding by a DOT car. He asked to see my logbook.

He asked to see my cab card and insurance, then he asked to see my log book. I always log it when I bobtail to get my truck worked on then throw away the log when I get home and log the day off duty.

Yes...

It has always been my understanding, that when a driver is "away from the HOME terminal", his assigned tractor can be used for personal conveyance, as long as there was not a trailer attached.

That was how it was treated back in the 70's and 80's, and how my last "company" job and my current "lease" position treat(ed) the situation.
Bobtail the tractor as far as you want "off duty not driving", but if there is a trailer on the unit, loaded or empty, every mile had to be logged.

Did you ask the TMC log department what their preference is Terry??

I am no longer with TMC, I quit about 7 months ago to run a Martial Arts School, which failed and now I am with ATS. I didn't ask. I found my own solution. I am not a company driver. I am a Lease Operator.

Ouch Terry!!

Let us know how you do on the lease!

If you manage to actually end up owning the truck...let us know that as well!

As for the question you asked......I already told you my experience with that situation.

Yeah, I needed a job and no one was hiring. Going Lease Operator was the fastest way to get a job. I didn't have the magical two years experience, I had only 20 months with TMC.

I did a lot of research. I couldn't find anything, specifically, bad about the Lease Operator proggram with ATS. It is a truc Lease Program not a Lease Purchase Program, allthough at the end of your lease you are given the opportunity to buy your truck. I already know the cost.

Basically, I am assuming most of the risk and cost, they do provide a 30 day unconditional warranty and for they rest of the lease do cover the drive train.

Everyone I have talked to is doing well on their Lease Operator Program. From what I have seen they do not lie and will help you be as sucessful as possible. Most L/O are making more than company drivers.

Only time will tell. What I can see right now in the short time I have worked here is a greater selection of freight offered and much greater freedom. After all I am paying for the fuel, so I can go an do what I want as long as the bills are paid.

I learned some good habits at TMC. My idle time was 4.76 and I have learned to nurse every bit of mileage out of my fuel tanks.

After my lease is up in one year I will decide on whether to take my completion bonus and go elsewhere or lease for another year. By then I will have my magical two years in and will have greater options as a company driver.

I am liking it so far. To me it is a step toward being an Owner Operator. I am getting some valuable experience without assuming 100% of the risk.

Just wish you good luck. Your own work habits will make you or break you.

Unfortuntely that isn't the reason most lease purchase deals fail.

*sigh* Yeah...I know...but I still wish him luck.

Oh me too, I wish we had more info, but no sense hijacking this thread any farther.

Ahhh, but it is my thread, so you go ahead and post what you will! Actually, I should start a thread in the O/O forum. I can chronical my success or failure.

I would enjoy it, and it would surely be helpful to others.

yeah i would enjoy it too,,,,.....

Trooper Dial has been proven to be "misinformed" before.... and he is once again.

Unladen does NOT mean bobtail. It means "not under a bill of lading" and per the regs/guidance as Uturn quoted them, has nothing to do with whether or not a trailer is attached.

If I understand correctly, you are an O/O and OWN your truck. If you are at home and OFF DUTY, you do not need to log this. You would need your cab card (registration) and insurance.... like you would with ANY vehicle.... but you do not need to log it. You MAY need your logbook, but it can show that you are off duty from the time of your last duty change.

You would be wrong. The fact that he is an O/O is irrelevant. All time servicing a truck (which would include time driving to the dealer to have it serviced) is On Duty time, which means that the time driving would be on line 3.

No surprise, I'm sure.... but, I disagree with you Rev!

So, what YOU are saying is that the ON DUTY reg applies to an O/O (on his own hometime) while servicing his truck.... but NOT the alcohol carrying prohibition? Cuz.... that is what the FMCSA guidance says.

This goes directly to our "discussion" about the On Duty reg. Since it is CLEAR that the regs say you can drive your truck home OFF DUTY if you are unladen and ROD... AND that you are exempt from the alcohol prohibition reg while doing so.... it is clear to ME that the rationale is that ALL subparas of the On Duty reg are subordinate to the TOPIC sentence that distinguishes between being ROD and being ON DUTY.

Quote:

On duty time means all time from the time a driver begins to work or is required to be in readiness to work until the time the driver is relieved from work and all responsibility for performing work.

Obviously, subpara (3) "driving time" does not apply to any PART of your break time at home or on the road if you can log off duty while driving home. Why then, would you need to log line 3 if you wanted to drive your own truck to the grocery store OR to have it serviced? Besides.... note that Scott didn't say HE was servicing the truck. He said he TOOK it to be serviced.

And.... if (as I claim and have shown) subpara (3) is subordinate to the topic sentence criteria, then so would subpara (2) AND subpara (4) and all others. If not.... then once you got home, you would not even be able to enter your truck (or stand on the catwalk) for ANY reason during your 34 hour break without busting it. You can't clean it out. Can't take it to be painted or washed. Can't work on the generator. Nothing!

Almost forgot. You red-lettered subpara (8) in your post. By YOUR definition, this would include billing your customers and doing your "books" or filing your taxes. How about cashing your checks at the bank? Oh.... and don't BE on the load boards looking for a load during your 34 hour break!

Now... if YOU think that makes any sense, I submit that you are the LAST and ONLY one on this forum who DOES.

Let's see if this makes sense: You return to your terminal and are ROD'd for your 34 hour break. You can drive 8 hours or whatever to get to your home.... OFF DUTY. This time counts toward your 34 hour restart. Now... you GET home and are no longer driving (the part the guidance clearly exempts,) and you need to UNLOAD your dirty laundry. Ooops! You are ON THE TRUCK and not driving... and not resting in the sleeper!

By god.... the Rev says you must log this time as line 4!! Start your 34 hour restart ALL OVER AGAIN! :hellno::roll:

Your contentions defy ALL logic, Rev! EVEN that of the FMCSA. :eek2:

Hmmm....alot of legal talk for a 2 1/2 hour trip..

My question is, as long as your driving a commercial vehicle, with a trailer, and your going 170 miles, why wouldn't you log it in your logbook?

It's only 2 1/2 hours....unless you are going to be out of hours by that time, I would go ahead and log it.

After you take a 34 hour restart, it's not going to matter. You start over again at 0.

I don't suggest running at all without logging it in your logbook. Not in a CMV. And that would go for anytime you're on the road.

To me, I just don't see the sense in doing so.

:bigthumbsup::bigthumbsup:

I bet you get home every weekend and a three hour trip has little meaning. I have experiences in the past where 15 minutes could have made or broke me. I cannot count on a 34 hour restart on a regular basis and want to conserve every minute I can.

Because taking a truck to be serviced is performing a duty "in the capacity, service, or employ" of the motor carrier. Therefore such time needs to be recorded on line 3.

That's correct. I'm sure most drivers do not log it that way, however. But driving a truck to have service done to it, or performing work on the truck yourself is performing "in the capacity, employ, or service" of a motor carrier, and would be regulated by the FMCSA. The fact that an owner operator is the motor carrier is completely irrelevant.

Quote:

Almost forgot. You red-lettered subpara (8) in your post. By YOUR definition, this would include billing your customers and doing your "books" or filing your taxes. How about cashing your checks at the bank? Oh.... and don't BE on the load boards looking for a load during your 34 hour break!

The FMCSA does not regulate such things, unless they are compensated work.

Unloading dirty laundry is not performing "in the capacity, employ, or service" of a motor carrier.

Really? They HAVE to be "compensated?"

I knew you'd post that reg, which proves you incorrect on your initial claim. Thanks for falling for it hook, line, and sinker!
:clap:

Golfhobo's claim:
The truth:



At least now I know that all I have to do is sit back, and you'll contradict yourself and post the regs that prove you wrong. Thanks golfhobo!!!!:thumbsup::rofl:

Give it up, Rev. You are starting to sound desperate. The TRUTH is.... straight from the DOT man's mouth to the 20 yr veteran O/O who buttheads with me everyday.... that once you are ROD, and bobtail (or technically unladen,) you can do anything you want with that truck while you are at home.

The compensated/uncompensated thing means that when doing ANY work for your "employer," it should be logged. Apparently, the DOT doesn't consider you a "carrier" or employer when you have relieved yourself (or BEEN relieved) of duty.

If YOU want to bust your reset by logging everything you do with YOUR truck when at home, suit yourself. Might be HARD to find enough time to haul loads and make truck payments that way though!

But, quit letting your stubborness confuse and misinform the people here who are asking serious questions.

Terry: If you are ROD, and EMPTY and not under dispatch, you can log those 170 miles home as off duty. Since it was NOT your "normal reporting location, when you were DISPATCHED from home to go back there to pick up a load... you were ON DUTY even though empty.

Do you have Qualcom? If so, make sure you have an ROD message, and permission to go home on it.

please explain how you account for the personal miles on your ifta, as every mile has to be accounted for, if you do not log it

Well, as you surely know.... I'm not an O/O so IFTA reporting has never been my concern. However, even as a company driver, if I was allowed to bobtail off duty to a motel every night, those miles would be accounted for when I turned in my mileage sheet for that trip. We always wrote down the mileage when we crossed a state line, and I'm sure ALL miles driven within that state were reported to IFTA.

It apparently made no difference whether those miles were logged as ON Duty (line 3) or OFF DUTY line 1 while heading for a motel or the local Walmart.

It's an interesting question though, I suppose. Perhaps you should include them in your total miles driven for the day, yet list them in the remarks section as OFF DUTY / personal conveyance. Just a guess.

I suppose I could ask the O/O I butthead with everyday. He obviously drives about 500 miles every weekend OFF DUTY going to and from his home from his terminal. So.... apparently there IS a procedure for it.

Technically IFTA applies no matter what 'line' you are logging on. They don't match your log book to the miles reported for IFTA! All they care about is that the use of the truck is accurately reported for tax purposes.

One could argue though I suppose that the DOT could use IFTA data in an audit against your log books, so if you are doing long distances on conveyance that could be a problem I guess. But a few miles here and there going to a walmart or what not is not going to be a real big issue.

Okay, I asked him. He says they USED to put them on different forms, now all on one. He logs the mileage "out" when he heads for home each weekend, and "in" when he returns. About 500 miles EVERY weekend on line 1.

The office people (dispatch) simply "pull" the mileage from his log, and the miles he is NOT recording as being "driven," are reported to IFTA per company requirements.

I don't even know why this is a question. The regs CLEARLY state that an unladen truck may be driven as a personal conveyance. No limit is put on the amount of miles. And ALL time spent driving the truck while OFF DUTY is logged on line 1. It follows then, that all time spent ON the truck while OFF duty are logged/considered as such.

Matcat, you are putting too much emphasis on the "short distance to a motel or walmart" thing. This is an assumption by FMCSA that you are ENROUTE to a final destination, and are staying within a certain undefined radius of WHERE you logged going off duty. They use this wording for COMPANY drivers, because they ASSUME that you are OTR and on a long haul. They further assume that you will return the (company) truck eventually to your terminal and then drive your POV to your home for hometime. However, they clearly state that IF you are taking a company truck HOME for hometime, THAT time/distance is to be logged as off duty.

This all comes back to the topic sentence of the on duty reg. Whatever you do with/on your truck.... or on the premises of your employer.... are subject to whether or not you have been RELIEVED OF DUTY or not (and in SOME cases, whether or not you are under a bill of lading.)

This is one of the dumbest statements you've ever said on this site, golfhobo. The FMCSA makes no distinction between owner operators and company drivers when it comes to the HOS regulations. There is no "assumption" for one that does not apply to the other. You are talking out of your ass, and spreading some serious misinformation.:roll:

I made no such "assumption," Rev. I don't know WHY the regs sometimes DO make statements about O/O's as compared to company drivers, but they DO!

I don't feel like quoting right now, but the regs DO say, in effect, that a company driver going to a local motel OR an O/O using his truck in an OFF DUTY status, can log line 1 and be "outside the scope" of the alcohol prohibition reg. "I" didn't make that distinction.... THEY did!

I take that as an "assumption" on their part that a company driver is not likely to take his truck home for the weekend. Now... we ALL know that this can happen, but they seem to think - or speak - with a different "assumption."

It seems to ME that they are "assuming" that an O/O might take his truck home for the weekend, whereas... a company driver would ONLY be making a short trip to a motel or such. Can YOU explain WHY they think this is true?

My point to Matcat was that they DO make this "erroneous" assumption, but the regs apply regardless.

If I FELT like it, I could post several examples of how the fmcsr's seem to MAKE such a distinction, while not really making any different rules. On THAT we agree.

And that is my point. IF the regs say an Owner of a truck can do certain things while off duty, then they ALSO say that a company driver can do the same. That is why I told Matcat that he was reading TOO much into the distinction.

THEY didn't say that an O/O going to a motel would be outside the scope. They said a COMPANY driver doing so would be...AND that an O/O who is OFF DUTY could do anything he wanted. WHY did THEY make that distinction?

I contend that it is because they CONSIDER the actions of a company driver to be different than that of an O/O. They are trying....very badly... to "tailor" their interpretations to those whom they are "reaching."

The simple FACT is..... both company drivers (UNLESS they have company rules governing their actions,) AND O/O's who are OFF DUTY, can LOG their driving time as OFF DUTY, AND carry unopened alcohol on the CMV if they want! (as long as they are unladen.)

Rev, this is about the 5th time that you have accused me of making the most STOOPID statement on this board that I have ever made. And EACH time, I have explained myself. WHEN will you learn to say something like.... " I don't quite understand what you are saying, Hobo. Could you clarify that?"

I don't say YOUR statements are STOOPID! And there are no TOS rules against you calling my statements STOOPID. But, there SHOULD be!

I really don't CARE, because I have less respect for you every time you open your mouth here, lately. And that is YOUR doing!

I once welcomed you as a worthy adversary. I'm beginning to believe that the honor was misplaced. And that, TOO, is YOUR doing!

Show me some respect, Rev. That's all I ask. And I will do the same. Attack the POST.... and NOT the POSTER! I heard that somewhere! ;)

I believe I even read it in the TOS as YOU posted them.

Hobo

I'm SURE you will SAY that you were attacking my post and not ME. But, I don't BUY it! I took it as a personal attack. You can HIDE behind the "spirit" of the TOS if you want, but your intentions are clear.

I'd love for you to quote that reg.

I believe it's under 392.4 / guidance.

There ya GO, Rev! A distinction.... clear and simple. They SEEM to distinguish, or at least delineate, between a company driver who, for some reason, MUST be going to a motel, restaurant, OR HOME; AND an O/O who is just using his truck in an "off duty status."

WHY didn't they say the O/O must be going to a motel, restaurant or home?

WHY didn't they say a Company driver using his truck in an "off duty" status?

WHY did they even MAKE such a distinction? I contend that it is due to their "assumptions" of the possible activities of a company driver ENROUTE on an OTR run vs. an O/O doing the same.... or something different.

I AGREE that the regs cover each equally! But, the wording DOES show a distinction that betrays thier "assumptions."

Any MORE stupid questions? :moon::lol2:

I'm still waiting for you to quote a reg that states it, as you have claimed there is one.