Originally Posted by wheelturner (Post 492856)

...
Total does not factor in: gas , comdata fees and charges, communication devices fees, pre-scale receipts,tolls and fuel surcharges. As expenses may vary.

Originally Posted by wheelturner (Post 492856)

Hey guys , I had to type up a estimated expense and revenues report for my bank. I figured I would post it on here for you guys to look it over and tell me what you think :thumbsup::thumbsdown: any input would be awesome, thanks

Cost of operating 06' Peterbilt 387, 02' StepDeck 48'

Monthly Expenses:
1443.06 monthly (truck) after 9500.00 down payment
500.00 monthly (trailer) after 3750.00 down payment
248.00 monthly (insurance) after 495.00 down
3200.00 monthly (driver @ 800.00 wk)
700.00 monthly (maint. tires, servicing,ect.)
544.44 monthly (escrow, plates, and permits) LandStar deductions
6635.50 total monthly ; 1658.88 weekly ; 265.42 daily@ 25day month

Total does not factor in: gas , comdata fees and charges, communication devices fees, pre-scale receipts,tolls and fuel surcharges. As expenses may vary.

2000 mile wk 2500 mile wk 3000 mile wk 3500 mile wk 4000mile wk
expenses: expenses: expenses: expenses: expenses:
Gas 986.00 Gas 1224.00 Gas 1462.00 Gas 1700.00 Gas 1944.80
Exp.1658.88 Exp. 1658.88 Exp. 1658.88 Exp. 1658.88 Exp. 1658.88
total:2644.88 total:2882.88 total:3120.88 total:3358.88 total:3603.68
cpm: 1.32 cpm: 1.15 cpm: 1.04 cpm: .96 cpm: .90

Exp. /Expenses , cpm / cost per mile , Gas @ 3.40 a gallon

Profit Per Week/Mile (minus cost per mile)

2000 miles wk 2500 miles wk 3000 mile wk 3500 miles wk 4000 miles wk
cpm: 1.32 cpm: -1.15 cpm: -1.04 cpm: - .96 cpm: - .90
@1.75= 855.00/.43 1492.12/.60 2130.00/.71 2766.12/.79 3396.32/.85
@1.80= 955.12/.48 1617.12/.65 2279.12/.76 2941.12/.84 3596.32/.90
@1.85=1055.12/.53 1742.12/.70 2429.12/.81 3116.12/.89 3796.32/.95
@1.90=1155.12/.58 1867.12/.75 2579.12/.86 3291.12/.94 3996.32/1.00
@1.95=1255.12/.63 1992.12/.80 2729.12/.91 3466.12/.99 4196.32/1.05
@2.00=1355.12/.68 2117.12/.85 2879.12/.96 3641.12/1.04 4396.32/1.10
@2.05=1455.12/.73 2242.12/.90 3029.12/1.01 3816.12/1.09 4596.32/1.15
@2.10=1555.12/.78 2367.12/.95 3179.12/1.06 3991.12/1.14 4796.32/1.20
@2.15=1655.12/.83 2492.12/1.00 3329.12/1.11 4166.12/1.19 4996.32/1.25
@2.20=1755.12/.88 2617.12/1.05 3479.12/1.16 4341.12/1.24 5196.32/1.30
@2.25=1855.12/.93 2742.12/1.10 3629.12/1.21 4516.12/1.29 5396.32/1.35

Originally Posted by wheelturner (Post 492948)

I will do that, find the weak point. More miles I put in, the more tire expenses will increase. But income will increase as well, it just a matter of keeping a percent on tires per mile. My mechanic told me to at least put back 800 - 1000 dollars a month for maintenance cost ? Does this seem like a good estimate on tire cost ? !!

Originally Posted by Heavy Duty (Post 492971)

Several things the LS deduct for escrow and tags does not last all year
you will have to pay workers comp on your driver
forget 7 mpg plan on 5.5 - 6
Are you sure you and your driver will be accepted by LS, meeting their requirements and getting a lease are 2 different things, they are very picky.

Originally Posted by RostyC (Post 492996)

What's the reason for doing this venture?

Originally Posted by wheelturner (Post 492989)

I couldn't tell whether they will accept us or not, but my driver does have very good work history with only three companies over 25 years, with no accidents or tickets. Also, he has driven just about anything with wheels, and just about any load there is. The only reason he's not working with someone right now is because his father which is 94 yrs old needed help about 18 months ago, and his company he was driving for was in process of being sold to westco dist. He figure it might be time for change as well. So he hung it up to help out. But now is ready for one last go. He's a easy going common sense kinda guy with smarts in trucking. I actually got about 5 drivers lined up for a trucks, that are close friends of mine that I could truck with a 100k truck like it there own.

It is not always good to have friends work for you. Sometimes it works out well, other times it can be a major problem. You should have a contingency plan.


I'm working with Terry Briggs recruiter for LS (RANGER), and a couple of leased on drivers and brokers for LS, of which I'm using for references and advise.

Landstar did use an outside contractor to check out drivers. It can take several weeks to get through their process. I have a friend who wanted to lease to them and he gave up after 6 weeks and went with another company. I don't see why it should take them so long to check out drivers, but that is the way they operate. I would not make any plans based upon leasing to them without having an alternate plan. If your driver quits, you will need to go through the same process again with Landstar. During that time your truck will be sitting unless you plan on driving it yourself.


The one thing I keep hearing from the drivers is don't pull Van, it don't pay ****, and know what your truck cost you per mile.

I got to ask you though , what is your average worker comp insurance fee ? My quote for cpp was 198.00 month, and truck insurance at 248.00 month.

Rates for workers comp will vary from state to state.

And also taxes per quarter on average ?

I assume you are talking about IFTA? If so, I pay about $35-55/quarter per truck.

I know there deductions stop at certain periods and that will be great when they do go away after about 18 weeks, but its better than me coming up with my plates at 1800 bucks up front , I all ready have so many other expenses (15k) out of pocket to start. If me and my driver are accepted that would be a great thing knowing that they only accept about 1 out of every 10 applicants.

Being leased on with LS has so many other advantages. Money is guaranteed to be there,being number one.
Save on insurance cost, repair cost and tires at small or large discount, gas program, no cost pm, and being able to see loads before they get kicked down to there broker board, versus me getting my own authority and operating with LS broker services. Where they rip u pretty good.

When I leased to Landstar I found that I could get as good a price from Flying J as I could from some of their fuel stops. They get their deepest fuel discounts from TA, but their pump price is nearly always higher than their competition. You need to check before buying to see if you can get a better price using their fuel program or on your own. As far as I know they only offer fuel discounts on diesel, not gas. Most trucks burn diesel. You keep mentioning gas, but if you plan on buying a class 8 truck you will most likely be buying a diesel powered truck unless you go back to the early 1970's or earlier models. Flying J is not as cheap since Pilot got into the picture. You can get national pricing on tires and if you decide to purchase another truck or trailer you can also get some discounts. One thing that I found when I was leased to them was that I could get a better price from a Great Dane dealer about 100 miles from me than I could get through them in Jacksonville, even after their discount. In fact, I could have saved $500 by dealing with a dealer near me.

There are some of their agents who would rather put a load on an independent than one of their BCO's. Landstar calls their owner operators BCO's (Business capacity owners). You can make more as an independent with your own authority than if you leased to them. At least that is what they tell us. An independent is supposed to get 80% of what the load pays. When you are leased to them you will make about 73% if you have your own trailer. Using one of their trailers will result in a rate of about 65%. I think that they pay a small premium for some specialized equipment.


If I don't get accepted by LS I will try CRST Malone, also have about the same ratios of line haul at 73% for step/flat loads and I heard the new load board is holding it's own with LS's load board.

CRST Malone pays 75%, which is a little more than Landstar pays their owner operators. I also leased to them for about 3 years. They are a good company (or was at the time I leased). They also seem to treat their people better, most likely due to them being a smaller carrier. With Landstar it is either their way or the highway. There is little flexibility with Landstar. In fact, most carriers are fairly rigid in how they do business and treat owner operators.


I haven't done my mpg at 5.5 or 6 yet, as it takes a couple hours to do. But when I get done with it i will post on here. Also, I will increase maintenance to 1k per month and driver pay to 1k per week, just to see what happens based on 2000,2500,3000,3500, and 4000 miles per week.

You should ALWAYS calculate expenses high and revenue low. That is true no matter what type of business you are in. I would use 5 mpg as a basis for fuel consumption. You could very well do better, but it is best to figure on lower mpg when calculating costs. Keep in mind that your driver will most likely be idling for at least 10 hours per day. That will burn up about 10 gallons of fuel and that reduces your mpg. You cannot go by what your truck's computer says. I use odometer readings when I calculate my fuel consumption. By the way, your driver and his driving habits will dictate your fuel consumption and any other single factor.

Also the truck I'm buying has nothing to do with the mechanic I talked to about putting 1k per month away, he was just saying for worse case scenario. This mechanic actually owns a trucking company (quality carriers), repair shop, and a couple things.

Ideally, you should have enough put back to do the most expensive repairs on your truck before starting out. In this business it is usually an over haul. It can cost from about $10,000-18,000 to rebuild most diesel engines. And as I have stated many times, just because a truck is under warranty doesn't mean that it will cover an overhaul or any other major repair. If it doesn't, then you should be prepared to pay the cost out of pocket. In addition, you may also have a wrecker bill and cost of putting your driver in a motel for a few days.

My main thing I have working for me is I don't need the truck to pay my personnel bills (mortgage,car,etc.) All if any profit is going to stay in my business account, and used only on things pertaining to the truck. And possible 2nd truck down payment, or purchase. I would rather keep the money there for peace of mind. You never know whats going to come up or go down.. Thanks again guys for your input, Wheelturner

It is a good thing that you won't need the money from your truck to earn your living. It is difficult to make a profit with a single truck when you don't drive it yourself. Running trucks is time consuming. It takes time to keep them moving with decent paying freight.

firebird and heavy duty are u guys leased on to LS ? If so how long ? Are the loads there ? How is the dispatching starting out ? Do u have to negotiate every load even if your in the plus ? If u were able to have any of these trailers (53' SD steel/wood with container locks for 10k- 50' SD combo w/container locks, weight scale,for 22,5k-48' SD combo for 14k-48' flat for 7k) which would u run with ? from 2002 to 2006 models.

Originally Posted by wheelturner (Post 492997)

The money, being number one.
I need to build a business portfolio with up to 2 yrs experience for local dump truck business that I originally was going to start. But, need 2 yrs verifiable business to be eligible for a minority business in county I reside in. A very good friend of mine works for the county economics department where they screen companies to become eligible to bid on county wide hauling for minority owned business. So have upper hand when eligible. I have another friend that is a prime at a county and state level that has to contract out portions of projects for the state and county to a minority owned business in order to be eligible as a prime. A prime is a engineering or construction company that is very large that generally doesn't work on anything short of building new highways, environmental clean up, and basically anything with a lot of money involved that they then bid on against other big construction companies at local and state level, but the catch is that they basically have to if they get the contract have to sub contract out a percentage to minority owned business. My trucking company that I'm starting a stepping stone, to bigger things. I could go and buy a dump truck and beg for work locally but nobody is going to just hire one truck, when they can hire multiple to get the job done on schedule, plus those dump trucks cost just as much as the rigs I'm looking at. I need to play it safe with live load boards where I can actually see the work. After two yrs is up, if trucking company is making profit worth staying in, so be it. I 'll be here to stay, or use my rig for RGN for these construction companies to haul there heavy equipment regionally. Who knows, the only way to find out is to jump in the damn pool and see if ya like it....:lol:

Originally Posted by GMAN (Post 492999)

There are always quarries, asphalt plants and contractors you could contact to see if something can be worked out.

Originally Posted by wheelturner (Post 492997)

The money, being number one.

Originally Posted by no_worries (Post 493002)

You're going to hire a driver and make no allowance in your budget for workman's comp or bennies? Most banks experienced in business lending are going to see that as an omission indicative of unpreparedness. You can talk around the bennies (I know drivers work for peanuts in FL) but no getting around the workman's comp.

When you're going to the bank, you can inflate your numbers. What they're looking for is a reason to accept or deny you. A solid pro forma with numbers that pencil out is what they're looking for. They won't know if those numbers are 10-15% off.

Originally Posted by GMAN (Post 492998)

If you are going to buy a step deck then I would recommend that you get one with at least 40' on the lower deck. That will enable you to haul a loaded 40' container without any difficulty. Container locks are great when you have a container. They do add some weight and take away some flexibility on where you can put your straps and winches.

Many people fail trying to run the Landstar system. I think part of the reason is that some are accustomed to having a dispatcher and don't allow for the learning curve. It usually takes about 6 months to learn how their system works. I know of owners who have done well and others who have failed running their system.

No matter which direction you finally decide on going, it will take time to get accustomed to their system. Each carrier is a little different. I think that you are also underestimating the time you will need to spend finding good paying loads. The better ones usually don't make the loadboard and when some do they are usually gone very quickly. It takes time to keep your nose glued to a computer screen and your ear to a telephone calling about loads.

Originally Posted by Mackman (Post 493001)

That is true to a point. But the quarrys, black-top plants and contractors all ready have trucks lined up more then likey. The quarry i haul out of has not took a new truck on in about a year. We have enough trucks hauling out of there as it is. I was lucky to get on cuz my dad been hauling out of there for 25+ years.

Originally Posted by wheelturner (Post 493025)

I got my quote back today workers comp 140.00 per month for 2 mil in coverage. I've already done the bank thing, been approved by three and just waiting on lease answer from LS to sign on dotted line for truck, trailer, and insurance. They actually never asked about workers comp. The reason for not having it in budget is that my insurance company told me that it would be included in my new quote, and i didn't have it at time. LS did tell me at the beginning that I would need it. The reason for me starting this thread with my make shift spread sheet was to get criticized, so I could make the proper adjustments and financial obligations. And it's worked, You guys have been awesome. You definitely know your x and q's.

Originally Posted by no_worries (Post 493041)

Banks are lending now without a lease agreement or at least a promise-to-lease in hand? My how things have changed.

Originally Posted by Mackman (Post 493001)

That is true to a point. But the quarrys, black-top plants and contractors all ready have trucks lined up more then likey. The quarry i haul out of has not took a new truck on in about a year. We have enough trucks hauling out of there as it is. I was lucky to get on cuz my dad been hauling out of there for 25+ years.

Originally Posted by wheelturner (Post 493025)

I got my quote back today workers comp 140.00 per month for 2 mil in coverage. I've already done the bank thing, been approved by three and just waiting on lease answer from LS to sign on dotted line for truck, trailer, and insurance. They actually never asked about workers comp. The reason for not having it in budget is that my insurance company told me that it would be included in my new quote, and i didn't have it at time. LS did tell me at the beginning that I would need it. The reason for me starting this thread with my make shift spread sheet was to get criticized, so I could make the proper adjustments and financial obligations. And it's worked, You guys have been awesome. You definitely know your x and q's.

Originally Posted by no_worries (Post 493055)

When I started, they wanted to see a lease agreement in order to qualify for tier 1 terms. That was with sterling credit, putting $40,000 down on a factory ordered truck, and plenty in reserve. Of course, I was a start up. But without a lease agreement or promise to lease, what good are your numbers? You're presenting them with pro forma revenue numbers that are dependent on the situation you end up in. I'm not on your case, you've obviously done your homework. Just a little amazed sometimes at how banks conduct their business. Obviously you have some other assets and income that they feel insulate them from risk, but why ask for the projections then?

Originally Posted by GMAN (Post 493060)

He mentioned that his bank requires him to set up a LLC. That tells me that the bank is more than likely setting this up as a commercial loan or a commercial line of credit rather than as a personal loan. He will probably need to give a personal guarantee, but the terms are different than when you buy a truck as an individual. They may or may not require a signed lease agreement or an intent to lease from a carrier for this type of loan. Terms could also be stretched out beyond a personal loan with this type of financing.

Originally Posted by no_worries (Post 493069)

Unless you have an established business with the correlating business credit history, the underwriting procedure is going to be all about the individual...hence the personal guarantee. Whether its a business or personal loan makes little difference in the terms; it all boils down to the perceived risk. Once that's been established, you can tailor the terms to pretty much anything you want. It's all just a trade-off between length and rate. The sole fact that it is a business entity doing the borrowing does not answer the question, "From where will you generate revenue?"

You don't need to be an LLC or corporation to secure business credit. Simply establishing an EIN is enough to allow a sole proprietor to build credit separate from his personal. While you can't separate yourself legally from the obligation with this form, as soon as you sign a personal guarantee you eschew any protection you might have had with an LLC or corporation anyway. And banks rarely lend to new entities without that guarantee in place.

I've never done business as a sole proprietor and I've dealt with banks in various capacities when it comes to business lending. Obviously, they are satisfied with their level of risk in this case; probably due to other assets/income available. But I'm still surprised they don't require more in the way of revenue assurance. Then again, given what we've just gone through; much of banks' behavior is puzzling.

Originally Posted by GMAN (Post 493060)

He mentioned that his bank requires him to set up a LLC. That tells me that the bank is more than likely setting this up as a commercial loan or a commercial line of credit rather than as a personal loan. He will probably need to give a personal guarantee, but the terms are different than when you buy a truck as an individual. They may or may not require a signed lease agreement or an intent to lease from a carrier for this type of loan. Terms could also be stretched out beyond a personal loan with this type of financing.

Originally Posted by GMAN (Post 493080)

Some types of lending is only done to companies. The risk might be the same. It is only how the loan is structured. From his post, he may also be a member of a minority. There are loans that are available to minorities with different requirements than those who are not considered minorities. In any case, it sounds like he has his money lined up. I don't think that is would be an SBA loan, since they don't lend money for class 8 equipment, unless their policies have changed. They also don't make decisions that quickly. With SBA, they often will require significant assets to be pledged to cover some of the risk. Perhaps he does business with a smaller bank that he has had a long standing relationship. That can make a difference when it comes to this type of loan. I have done business with banks who state that they don't lend money on class 8 equipment, but gave me money anyway due to my long relationship with them. That happened with two lenders with whom I have done business. He also mentioned that he was making a significant down payment. A good down payment can make a big impact on the comfort level of a lender. They like to have a debtor have money in the mix.

Originally Posted by wheelturner (Post 493113)

I've got two personnel loans and one business loan approved. I'm going with the business loan, better rate and terms. I don't have a minority loan, but I am going to list my wife as 51% owner of business. I was ask to provide a lease agreement for one of the banks, but wasn't able to provide because didn't have available, so I moved on to the next bank. The interview I did over the phone was with the business loan (bank) I ended up going with. I do have the assets for emergency, and could probably come up with the full list price of tractor, but wouldn't be establishing business credit then. I know I'm taken a big risk on this venture, but I'm only 32 and I can afford to gamble a little. That doesn't mean that I'm just going to jump right in with my eye's closed. I'm going to get my all.

Also, I'm going to create an EIN with my service company, my accountant told me to create it with my (name) on it operating as (company name) and then create LLC . With LLC I am able to include business in my personal taxes under column C. No sense in paying business taxes when I am sub contracting the work out. In a way I'm a sub contracted worker for LS as well, if accepted.

I've got a occupational accident policy lined up, not workers comp. Because with workers comp I won't be covered under policy as owner. But will be along with driver under occupational accident coverage.

Sorry guy's for jumping back and forth with subjects, I keep going down boards and reading questions and coming back up and answering questions.

GMAN,how many trucks are u running right now and with who If you don't mind me asking ? Also, which company do you recommend me trying for situation I'm in, maybe easier load board, better dispatching, works in the south, and doesn't have as much of a one way street ?

And no_worries, r u also O/O ? It sounds to me like you work at the bank or spend a lot of time in banks ?

Anyways you guys both rock !! I appreciate your help,and have made changes based on your advise, I feel a bit stronger going into this, wheelturner