I'm not sure he's educatable.

If you talk to our good neighbor, Mr. Booth, tell him to check out my new avatar. Bumper stickers are $3.00 each & I got tee shirts coming.

And jumping this thread totally off the tracks-

I was checking out the Cal Jobs website last night, a truck driving school around Sacramento wants to hire an instructor- for 12 bucks an hour. Would any of you trust somebody making that little to teach somebody how to drive an 80,000 pound truck down the highway?

I guess I'll take 10 of those stickers and $30 bucks, you are paying us to take that crap right?

People are scared of the unknown and expecially scared if more and more lies are piled up into this conversation.

Mike, I have expirienced health care service in other countries, Croatia for one, and in the ,,anything&everything'' section of this forum, i have explained this clearly. My parents have done many procedures there and check this out, EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE AMERICAN, they have payed the same cost as their regular citizens. You cannot simply blast everything that you may be against expecially if you have not expirienced it.

If your whole life you have been tought one thing, that will be the only thing you know. It is very different when you look at the things from the outside looking in, then from the inside. You dont know how much we are overpaying for something utill you compare it with something else.

$4500 for a 20min.MRI is not too much, its a waay too much no matter if you are Republican or Democrat.

Just send me your address & I'll get your "package" in the mail.

It's called provincialism. We seem to awash in it in this country. I was lucky. I got to visit 15 foreign countries as a teenager, with teachers there to help me place what I was seeing in context. I've since visited a few others on my own as an adult. Having just the most basic comprehension of other cultures been both a blessing and a burden all through my life. In some ways I think it would be easier if I could forget all that I have seen and just listen to talk radio for my education. I would be a he** of a lot more certain about everything............even though I would be wrong!

We already have rationed healthcare in this country if you are on public healthcare. Government sponsored insurance already limits how may prescriptions they will pay for per month. That is not likely to change with the Obama healthcare system.

There are those who use the emergency room for their healthcare needs. Some are serious and others go there to be treated for a cold. I know since I have been in the emergency room on a number of occasions with my wife and experienced it first hand. Much of our current healthcare costs come from illegals going to our emergency rooms. I know this due to family members who work in healthcare. I have also seen this first hand as well as talking with healthcare workers while in the hospital with my wife. Illegals are on the verge of bankrupting many hospitals across this country. It should not be up to the U.S. government to provide healthcare to illegals. It is time for our politicians to find their backbone and do the right thing.

I have spoken to a number of Canadians about their healthcare. With rare exceptions most think it is great unless you are chronically ill or need a major surgical procedure. You may get it or not. And you don't have to take my word for it. Many have been interviewed on TV over the years and there are thousands who come to this country for surgical procedures each year. There are numerous stories that have been reported on the news.

As far as taxes and the Obama spending binge are concerned. If you think that this administration or any other for that matter, can increase the size of government without raising taxes then you are very naive and don't understand how the world works. Any time you add a bureaucracy such as the healthcare plan to our government you WILL increase taxes. According to some figures that I have read the Obama stimulus plan brings all the taxes up to about 60% of what we earn. The healthcare proposal will only increase taxes further. Simple logistics will tell you that when you add 40 or 50 million people's healthcare costs to the public budget you will need to raise taxes to pay for it. This country is on the verge of bankruptcy as it is. I have NEVER known of any government proposal to meet or be less than what was proposed. It is usually several times the estimate. They use lower estimates so that the American people will buy their tax program.

Obama promised no new taxes for anyone making less than $250,000/year. No one with any common sense would have bought into that, but millions apparently did. This government has always been primarily supported by the middle class. That will not change unless the way in which the government raises revenue changes. Obama has promised to tax the coal industry into oblivion. We have many coal power plants across the country. Each tax increase imposed by them will be passed on to the consumer. That is mostly the middle class. Other taxes he has in the works will likely include an increase on fuel taxes. When does it end? When will those of you who want to live off the government begin to understand that the government is us. The government has no business deciding how or where we get our healthcare. There are many other instances where the government has decided to interfere in private business and that has never worked out for the better.

Healthcare is expensive. Nationalizing it is not the answer. Another government run agency is not the answer. If you want things to cost less then we can make changes to the industry that will actually work. We can take healthcare decisions out of the hands of the insurance industry and the government. Healthcare decisions should be made by the patient and their doctor. The more people who get involved in the decision process means that costs will increase. Tort reform is another way to reduce costs. Limiting how and when lawsuits can take place and the amount is one way to reduce costs. Another is to keep the government out of the decision making process. One other thing that will reduce costs over night is to send all these illegals back to where they came. This one thing alone could reduce costs by many millions of dollars over night. Fixing the problem isn't complicated. All it takes is the will. When I was growing up most people went to their doctor and paid for their visit out of their own pocket. If they were given a prescription they went to the pharmacy, had it filled and paid for it out of their own pocket. You see, by having the government and insurance companies paying for doctor visits and prescriptions reduces competition and raises costs. If we all had to pay for our prescriptions we would see a dramatic decrease in prescription costs.

xxxxx

My brother has a Celebral Palsy and has Medicaid. He recieved a booklet which explained to him what doctors accept medicaid and where he may choose to go. It just happend that pretty much every doctor takes Medicaid in this program but since my brother is lazy he never went to see one ever since he turned 18.

It's not rationed, its about who accepts the program, in this case Medicaid.

It is easy to blame the illegals for everything. I have also been to many EM's with my parents and I am yet to see one, really. In Charlotte we have a'lot of clinics who take people without insurance and they are thriving. I know since i went there for my regular check-ups. $120 complete blood work. Many of those illegals you are referring too built this country for minimum wages. Most of their money is spent here and THEY PAY TAXES BUT, cannot do taxes at the beggining of the year because our government would not issue them the papers, so they end up not recieving their refund at all.

If you sent every illegal person out of this country then WE WOULD NOT BE WHAT WE ARE. Hitler tried it with Jews, it didnt work. Illegals made us who we are. Chinese built our railroad up west.


Whoever told you this, told you a lie. If you need surgery you will get it. They dont run concetration camps up there in Canada Mike, common. People who come here for their surgeries better be rich. I have yet to hear this nonsence. Only thing i hear is people jumping borders from here to there, not the other way around.

Taxes that would be raised cannot compare to the money we are bleeding as a nation right now. All of these bailouts and whatnot have to be payed for somehow. Americans want EVERYTHING for nothing. Well, if we want bases on every continent and stupid wars, we have to pay for it.....

Rush Limbaugh politics. I hear him say how Obama wants to mandate circuimcision as well.
If you think that i fall under that category of wanting to live off of the government, then you are mistaken. I never once recieved anything and have worked really hard to have what I have, and i can tell you this. I payed taxes under Bush as well, as a matter of fact most of my taxes went up, including property tax as well as my fuel tax, my sales tax and my truck registration too. North Carolina had a REpublicans in charge.

I respect you too much to put you up in the same category i put in alot of these idiots i see on TV. Pretty much everything you say i get but only because i know that we have been thought to think that way. If you only get to live in Australia or Switzerland for a year, you would come back a brand new you. I put my life on it.

I have known a couple of people who have been on the government program and have a neighbor who works for one of the insurance companies who administer the program in my state. The main thing they ration are prescriptions under their program. For the most part they do receive the medical care providing they have a doctor in the area who will accept the insurance. If not the patient could have to drive to another city to receive medical care. The patient has little to say about any doctor they may want to see. Many of those who accept medicaid are foreign nationals. Patients are also discharged prematurely from hospitals in some cases. They have really tightened up on some of their spending in recent years. Before you can go to a specialist you must have pre approval. If the doctor doesn't receive the approval prior to your appointment then you cannot see the doctor. It is a bureaucratic maze. At this time the main problem is with prescriptions, at least in my area. It seems to me as though they spend $10 to save $1.

I don't blame the illegals for everything. They are a major contributing factor. Illegals or those who are here on work visa's don't pay taxes. I have customers who employ them. There is also a county about 30 miles from me that has a Hispanic population of more than 30%. To the west there is also a large Hispanic population. While it seems more of a problem for the border states there are pockets across the country where there are large groups of both legal and illegals. I believe those who come here legally don't have to pay taxes for a certain amount of time according to one shipper whom I know who mostly employs Mexicans. And much of their money is sent back to their homeland. They may pay sales tax on purchases but it is my understanding that they are not required to pay income or social security taxes as long as they don't exceed the time limit. And even though they don't contribute to social security they may still collect. They can also collect food stamps and other government assistance. We pay for all of that with higher taxes.


Legal immigrants have made great contributions to this nation. I don't have a problem with those who go through the legal process to get here. My problem is with those who come here illegally. Most of the Jews that Hitler killed were natives of Germany. He just needed someone to blame for the woes of Germany. Since many Jews were land owners and business owners they were a good target when the economy was in the toilet. The world was in a depression. He made it appear that the Jews were the cause. When you say something long enough and with conviction some people will eventually believe you.


It was Canadians in Toronto who told me about not always being able to get needed surgeries. There have also been stories on the national media stating the same thing. The only time I have heard about Americans crossing the border into Canada or Mexico is to buy their prescriptions. They can save a lot of money by going to either country.
[/quote]


You are right about all the reckless spending. What we are spending on the wars is minimal as to what we spend on various social programs. Many Americans do expect a lot for nothing. There was a time when an American would rather starve than ask for a handout from the government or anyone else for that matter. Unfortunately, there are too many today who think that they deserve a paycheck or other services from the government. That attitude is killing this country. We will pay a very heavy price for allowing the government to take care of us.



I haven't heard anything about circumcision. I wasn't directing what I said at you. My taxes also went up this year. The more services we demand from the government the more taxes will need to be collected to pay for them. I prefer paying my own way with my own money. I can do a much better job of spending my money than any government entity. And one thing that I can guarantee is that I can get much more for my money that the government.

As I stated earlier, there are things which need to be addressed in our healthcare. Socialization is not the answer. I don't want the government that involved in my life. I have to deal with their nonsense enough as it is.

xxxxx

In that booklet i told you above there were names of many doctors and it was up to him to CHOOSE where to go, not the government agency. Right now everything that has to be done to a patient has to be aproved not by the government but by insurance companies.Single payer system would make sure that the procedure is covered instead of me having to call insurance companies and argue about why they didnt pay this and that, which i did many times.
Mike, my dad just recieved his notification on his next years insurance costs, they went up 15%. This is BCBS of NC. How can insurance go up during the biggest economic downturn since the great depression, when prices were suppose to be failing they are rising. It doesnt make any sense. How far will they go?
Peoples wages are being CUT, my dad's salary has been cut 10% while insurance went up? Who is protecting the people. He has to have a coverage, so he has to continue to pay regardless of his costs..


Here is how I know alot about this issue. My wife is from Ecuador. She came here illegaly long time ago and has fixed her status way before she married me. She came on a visa and decided to stay. She worked in a grocery store for 7 years paying taxes but never doing them at the begining of a year. As a illegal you cannot collect ANYTHING from the government, first thing they ask for is your SS# which she didnt have. She tried to go to our local community college with no luck, they ask for papers there too. She has never recieved food staps, medicaid, nada, zilch, yet payed her taxes....
There is a big mis conception when it comes to this issue. People THINK that illegals collect yet do not pay, when its the other way around. And let me tell you this as well...WE AS A COUNTRY MAKE MUCH MORE BY HAVING MEXICANS AND ALL OTHERS HERE THEN WE WOULD IF WE DIDNT HAVE THEM HERE.
There is a really big shopping center here in Charlotte on Central Avenue which only houses buisinesses ran by them. THEY ARE PACKED. These buisinesess are vital to our economy as well as these people. I took my wife out just yesterday to a Chinese place close by. Guy in front of me was Spanish with his family of 5. His bill was over 120$ and he payed cash when everyone payed with the CC.....Out local Bi-Lo grocery store benefits much from illegals as they shop there all thr time and its also packed with them.......LightsChromePower raised an interesting point in his earlier post about other countries having illegals as well but have way better health care system then we do. England for one has alot of immigrants yet spend waaay less on their health care then we do. France also. Germany with Turks and all others....Illegals have been painted with an ugly picture which does not suit them. These companies that you deliver to that have these guys there working, do you think they would be there if they didnt have them, would your load paid what it did?





Our government is not stupid Mike, they can close that border anytime they want and fix this problem once and for all, but they don't. Its called legal slavery. Give them work but no benefits. NO BENEFITS. They do not collect any foodstamps Mike even though you think they do and i get that, i told you. I know why you think that.




Have you ever asked yourself why are prescriptions cheaper in Canada, (which has the same or better living standard than we do) than here, yet their government is not bankrupt?



Its not minimal Mike, cost us over a trillion to have bases everywhere + around 700 billion for just a Pentagon budget which is overloaded with pork. And this is only what they tell us. Its better to invest that money here then in some thirld world bum **** country which will never have democracy. Nobody is asking for a handout, that is another miss conception, we would all pay, no free lunch.




YouTube - Rush Limbaugh Responds To Jay-Z Song "Off That" Jay-Z Disses Him & Bill O'Reilly , skip to 1:01...
Alot of people believe that...

Taxes that i was referring to were last years and the year before that, not this year. You cannot afford to spend your money paying for yourown medical care. 4500$ for a 20min MRI....i dont think so.

Originally Posted by GMAN http://www.classadrivers.com/forum/i...s/viewpost.gif
We already have rationed healthcare in this country if you are on public healthcare.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LightsChromeHorsepower

We already have single payer if you are a member of Congress. Why shouldn't our elected officials get the same care as the rest of us? Maybe what we get isn't good enough for them?

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They get better healthcare than most of us. They also make more money than most of us. The reason is that we don't hold them accountable. Congress is supposed to work for the people. At this point the people work for congress. They fleece us for enough they can pay for their own healthcare.


Government sponsored insurance already limits how may prescriptions they will pay for per month. That is not likely to change with the Obama healthcare system.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LightsChromeHorsepower

What "government sponsored insurance" are you referring to, what are the limits and how many people actually have an issue with them?

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In my state there the state has taken over the federal medicaid program. It is called Tenncare. They limit name brand prescriptions to I believe 4 per month.


There are those who use the emergency room for their healthcare needs. Some are serious and others go there to be treated for a cold. I know since I have been in the emergency room on a number of occasions with my wife and experienced it first hand. Much of our current healthcare costs come from illegals going to our emergency rooms. I know this due to family members who work in healthcare. I have also seen this first hand as well as talking with healthcare workers while in the hospital with my wife. Illegals are on the verge of bankrupting many hospitals across this country. It should not be up to the U.S. government to provide healthcare to illegals. It is time for our politicians to find their backbone and do the right thing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LightsChromeHorsepower

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I would not want you to do anything that was beneath you. I suppose you haven't been keeping up on what is going on in California. Part of the reason they are going bankrupt is due to all the illegals living off the system.



I have spoken to a number of Canadians about their healthcare. With rare exceptions most think it is great unless you are chronically ill or need a major surgical procedure. You may get it or not. And you don't have to take my word for it. Many have been interviewed on TV over the years and there are thousands who come to this country for surgical procedures each year. There are numerous stories that have been reported on the news.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LightsChromeHorsepower

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The only ones that I have heard of going to Mexico or Thailand are doing so for their dentures or plastic surgery. There was a special on one of the news shows about it several months ago.

As far as taxes and the Obama spending binge are concerned. If you think that this administration or any other for that matter, can increase the size of government without raising taxes then you are very naive and don't understand how the world works. Any time you add a bureaucracy such as the healthcare plan to our government you WILL increase taxes. According to some figures that I have read the Obama stimulus plan brings all the taxes up to about 60% of what we earn. The healthcare proposal will only increase taxes further. Simple logistics will tell you that when you add 40 or 50 million people's healthcare costs to the public budget you will need to raise taxes to pay for it. This country is on the verge of bankruptcy as it is. I have NEVER known of any government proposal to meet or be less than what was proposed. It is usually several times the estimate. They use lower estimates so that the American people will buy their tax program.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LightsChromeHorsepower

What too many people don't seem to understand is that the amount we spend on health care is not going to increase if we change to a single payer system. Right now 30% of every dollar spent on health care goes into the pockets of the insurance industry. How could government be any less efficient than that? Any additional taxes you pay to fund health care will be offset by not having to buy insurance. In fact, there should be a net savings throughout the economy as a whole. Businesses will be more profitable because they will not have to provide health benefits to current or past employees. The only people who will lose are the insurance industry fat cats and the politicians that they contribute billions to. If you have a problem with that, it's your problem.

---

I can't believe that you actually believe that the government will take care of our healthcare for less than we can do it for ourselves. Having the government do this will create a huge bureaucracy that will need to be supported by tax dollars. That means that we will need to pay higher taxes. We are already paying about 60% of each dollar we earn to the government for various taxes to a government that can't even balance a budget. These people will pay $600 for a toilet seat yet you seem to think they can manage healthcare and save money? Businesses are not going to save any money. They will need to pay higher taxes in order to pay for the "FREE" healthcare. You better cut your drug usage. You are hallucinating.




Obama promised no new taxes for anyone making less than $250,000/year. No one with any common sense would have bought into that, but millions apparently did. This government has always been primarily supported by the middle class. That will not change unless the way in which the government raises revenue changes. Obama has promised to tax the coal industry into oblivion. We have many coal power plants across the country. Each tax increase imposed by them will be passed on to the consumer. That is mostly the middle class. Other taxes he has in the works will likely include an increase on fuel taxes. When does it end? When will those of you who want to live off the government begin to understand that the government is us. The government has no business deciding how or where we get our healthcare. There are many other instances where the government has decided to interfere in private business and that has never worked out for the better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LightsChromeHorsepower

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It was a demonstration of what will happen with national healthcare. When the government throws on more taxes to business they pass that along to the consumer.



Healthcare is expensive. Nationalizing it is not the answer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LightsChromeHorsepower

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Those who have government healthcare are trying to get away from it because it is driving them into bankruptcy.
Another government run agency is not the answer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LightsChromeHorsepower

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I am not sure every industralized nation has publicly funded health care. It is easy to spend less when you ration the care participants receive. I would also challenge you on your statement. You would need to put everything side by side on the cost side and pay with the same dollars. You would also need to consider the cost of living in those countries.

If you want things to cost less then we can make changes to the industry that will actually work. We can take healthcare decisions out of the hands of the insurance industry and the government. Healthcare decisions should be made by the patient and their doctor. The more people who get involved in the decision process means that costs will increase.


[quote="LightsChromeHorsepower"]

That is exactly what a properly structured single payer system would do. It works in every other industrialized nation on the planet.
[quote="LightsChromeHorsepower"]

I am not sure it is working in every other industrialized nation. What proof do you have?


Tort reform is another way to reduce costs. Limiting how and when lawsuits can take place and the amount is one way to reduce costs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LightsChromeHorsepower

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I don't think negligence should be ignored, but many of the lawsuits that are filed are settled without even going to court. I think lawsuits are sometimes filed in expectation that the doctor or his insurance company will settle. Unfortunately, that is all too often the case with all insurance suits.



Another is to keep the government out of the decision making process.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LightsChromeHorsepower

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I am working on that. I agree that we need an effective government, but one that strictly adheres to our original constitution. At this point in our history our government is much too big and not responsive to those who support it.

One other thing that will reduce costs over night is to send all these illegals back to where they came. This one thing alone could reduce costs by many millions of dollars over night.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LightsChromeHorsepower

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I am not blaming the Mexicans. I said "ILLEGALS."


Fixing the problem isn't complicated. All it takes is the will. When I was growing up most people went to their doctor and paid for their visit out of their own pocket. If they were given a prescription they went to the pharmacy, had it filled and paid for it out of their own pocket. You see, by having the government and insurance companies paying for doctor visits and prescriptions reduces competition and raises costs. If we all had to pay for our prescriptions we would see a dramatic decrease in prescription costs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LightsChromeHorsepower

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The polio vaccine was developed when I was growing up. I am sure it was quite expensive to develop. Much of the medical needs we have don't or should not involve million dollar diagnostic machines. Keep in mind that one reason some of these tests are performed is to protect the medical provider from litigation.

I don't think that it is right for these insurance companies to raise premiums when we are in a depression, either. I went through this myself with some of my insurance. They don't want their profits to diminish so they raise premiums. They should be lowering prices to become more competitive.



Most of the Hispanics that I have seen are hard workers. There are some who do live off the system. I have seen some with food stamps and at the emergency room without the means to pay for their care. I remember reading some years ago that some countries actually require visitors or those moving to their country to have the means to pay for their healthcare.



I agree that the government doesn't want to close the border. I would not call what these illegals are working for as slavery. You will find illegals working in a wide variety of jobs from farming to construction and manufacturing. And as stated above, some do collect food stamps. I don't think most do but there are those who do. As I said most of those whom I have met are working to provide for their families. Many of them send much of their paychecks back home. Some are marrying American women to tie themselves to the U.S.



I don't think that we should be paying more for prescriptions in the U.S. than they do in Canada or Mexico. We basically subsidize other countries prescriptions. Canada is having financial difficulties as is much of the rest of the world. Too much government spending is part of the reason.

There is too much pork in most of our government. That is one reason to cut the size down to a manageable level. We spend more on social programs in this country than on our military. Government doesn't invest money. They just spend. Having the government take care of our every need is not a democracy. It is called socialism. It goes contrary to everything our country stands for. If you want the government to give you "FREE" healthcare then you are asking for a handout. We have gotten along just fine for more than 200 years without government healthcare. I don't think this country will exist 200 years from now if we continue on this path.


Healthcare costs have gotten out of control, at least in some instances. Getting the government more involved won't cut costs, they will only increase them based upon past performance.

GMAN-
“They get better healthcare than most of us. They also make more money than most of us. The reason is that we don't hold them accountable. Congress is supposed to work for the people. At this point the people work for congress. They fleece us for enough they can pay for their own healthcare.”

We elect them. If you want to hold them accountable quit voting for them.

GMAN-
“Government sponsored insurance already limits how may prescriptions they will pay for per month. That is not likely to change with the Obama healthcare system.”

Private insurance companies regularly refuse to pay for all kinds of treatments and therapies. Your point is?

GMAN-
“In my state there the state has taken over the federal medicaid program. It is called Tenncare. They limit name brand prescriptions to I believe 4 per month”

The same is true in all states. What is wrong with limiting prescriptions? Why shouldn't you use generics? My Kaiser coverage requires generics whenever possible. When I had surgery a couple of years ago Kaiser wouldn't cover the pain meds my doctor wanted to give me. I didn't find out until much later that there are a ton of other options I could have had that would have minimized my pain. I don't see how single-payer could have served me any more poorly.

GMAN-
“There are those who use the emergency room for their healthcare needs. Some are serious and others go there to be treated for a cold. I know since I have been in the emergency room on a number of occasions with my wife and experienced it first hand. Much of our current healthcare costs come from illegals going to our emergency rooms. I know this due to family members who work in healthcare. I have also seen this first hand as well as talking with healthcare workers while in the hospital with my wife. Illegals are on the verge of bankrupting many hospitals across this country. It should not be up to the U.S. government to provide healthcare to illegals. It is time for our politicians to find their backbone and do the right thing.”

We've already covered this. Please don't repeat yourself.

1.Illegals contribute far more than they consume by virtue of having taxes withheld from their incomes and then not being able to collect any refunds or benefits on what they have paid.

2.For what we spend on health care in this country, we should be able to offer stellar care to every person here, regardless of their immigration status.

3.All the European countries do the above, despite having much smaller populations over which to allocate the overall costs and risk. Why should they be that much better than us?

GMAN-
“I suppose you haven't been keeping up on what is going on in California. Part of the reason they are going bankrupt is due to all the illegals living off the system.”

I live in California. Our financial problems are far more complex in their origins than that. I will say that if all the illegals left California, the economy would stop and the entire nation would suffer an immediate food shortage.

GMAN-
“I have spoken to a number of Canadians about their healthcare. With rare exceptions most think it is great unless you are chronically ill or need a major surgical procedure. You may get it or not. And you don't have to take my word for it. Many have been interviewed on TV over the years and there are thousands who come to this country for surgical procedures each year. There are numerous stories that have been reported on the news.”

“The only ones that I have heard of going to Mexico or Thailand are doing so for their dentures or plastic surgery. There was a special on one of the news shows about it several months ago.”

U.S citizens are going overseas for health care to the tune of 40 BILLION dollars a year. That dwarfs any people from other countries who are coming here for the same reasons. You seem to keep harping on Canada. What about France, New Zealand or Switzerland for comparisons?

GMAN-
“As far as taxes and the Obama spending binge are concerned. If you think that this administration or any other for that matter, can increase the size of government without raising taxes then you are very naive and don't understand how the world works. Any time you add a bureaucracy such as the healthcare plan to our government you WILL increase taxes. According to some figures that I have read the Obama stimulus plan brings all the taxes up to about 60% of what we earn. The healthcare proposal will only increase taxes further. Simple logistics will tell you that when you add 40 or 50 million people's healthcare costs to the public budget you will need to raise taxes to pay for it. This country is on the verge of bankruptcy as it is. I have NEVER known of any government proposal to meet or be less than what was proposed. It is usually several times the estimate. They use lower estimates so that the American people will buy their tax program.”

We are talking about health care, not any economic stimulus plans here. Single payer health care, properly administered, would reduce overall health care costs in this country. It would do so by better allocating the risks involved and by taking away the obscene profits currently enjoyed by the insurance industry. Do you believe that we can continue to spend 16% of our GDP on health care and remain competitive in a global economy?

GMAN-
“It was a demonstration of what will happen with national healthcare. When the government throws on more taxes to business they pass that along to the consumer.”

You've been listening to too much talk radio.

GMAN-
“Healthcare is expensive. Nationalizing it is not the answer.”

“Those who have government healthcare are trying to get away from it because it is driving them into bankruptcy. Another government run agency is not the answer.”

“I am not sure every industralized nation has publicly funded health care. It is easy to spend less when you ration the care participants receive. I would also challenge you on your statement. You would need to put everything side by side on the cost side and pay with the same dollars. You would also need to consider the cost of living in those countries.”

“I am not sure it is working in every other industrialized nation. What proof do you have?”

1.Name a country with publicly funded health care that is trying to copy our system. None exists.

2.Health care is expensive. Nationalizing it is the only answer.

3.Name an industrialized nation that does not have publicly funded health care.

4.By any measurable standard we spend a far greater percentage of our GDP on health care than any other industrialized nation, and we get demonstrably inferior results. This seriously compromises our ability to compete in a global economy.

How much rhetorical mud do you have to throw before you notice it isn't sticking to the wall?

GMAN-
“One other thing that will reduce costs over night is to send all these illegals back to where they came. This one thing alone could reduce costs by many millions of dollars over night.”

Simple minds believe in simple solutions. If we sent all the illegal workers in this country home “overnight” our entire economy would freeze. I've answered this one above. We don't need to go through it again.


GMAN-
“Fixing the problem isn't complicated. All it takes is the will. When I was growing up most people went to their doctor and paid for their visit out of their own pocket. If they were given a prescription they went to the pharmacy, had it filled and paid for it out of their own pocket. You see, by having the government and insurance companies paying for doctor visits and prescriptions reduces competition and raises costs. If we all had to pay for our prescriptions we would see a dramatic decrease in prescription costs.”

“The polio vaccine was developed when I was growing up. I am sure it was quite expensive to develop. Much of the medical needs we have don't or should not involve million dollar diagnostic machines. Keep in mind that one reason some of these tests are performed is to protect the medical provider from litigation.”

When you were growing up, health care was almost absurdly simple as compared to what it is today. There were no multi-million dollar diagnostic machines, no medicines that cost billions of dollars to develop. New diseases have developed and the incidence of others has increased dramatically because of the many changes in how we live. If you want to go back to a 1950's standard of care you could get 1950's costs. You would also get 1950's mortality rates.

I'm sure that the Polio vaccine cost a small fraction of what todays complex, genetically engineered medicines cost. With the advent of nanotechnology it's only going to get worse. I also don't think that doctors prescribe super expensive treatments like chemo therapy to protect themselves from litigation. I think they do it because they want to save their patients lives.

My idea for a political forum was truly the worst post I ever made on CAD.

I'll admit it.

Dude, this is fun.

Be careful for what you ask. :D

Where to start?!! I don't vote for these mental amoeba's. All these politicians seem to want to do is line their pockets at the expense of the rest of us. They also don't seem to understand how to read the constitution.

I understand that insurance companies also limit procedures as does the government. Some drugs are only available in name brand but most of these government programs do limit the number of prescriptions whether they are generic or name brand. In your scenario you would exchange obscene insurance profits with obscene government taxes?

You quote some figures about GNP and healthcare in other countries. I don't see any proof. I talk about Canada since that is the only country where I have actually visited and spoken with the those who must deal with the healthcare system. And I don't recall having spoken to anyone who has gone abroad to receive healthcare other than dental work in Mexico at some of the border towns.

Don't minimize the cost or effects of polio on our population in years past. It usually hit children and either killed or crippled them. It was as bad as anything we have today. And if you factor in inflation I dare say that you would have spent as much as any other research or development for an effective vaccine. By the way, Franklin D. Roosevelt was struck by polio and was in a wheel chair during his presidency.

Most problems are simple. It is people who try to make them complex. It evidently makes them feel better to complicate problems. This country got along very well for more than 200 years without government heathcare and over 150 years without welfare. The result is a generation who expects the government to take care of their every need. The net result is several generations of non productive individuals who live for their government paycheck in their government subsidized housing. There is no need to work since the government will pay them to sit at home.

There were advantages to 1950's healthcare. For the most part people were pretty healthy. You didn't see the obesity we currently see in our country. It seems that the more complex people want to make healthcare the higher the costs. It doesn't have to be that way. The real cost issues have not been addressed. Government and litigation are the two major contributors to high costs of medical care. I noticed you prefer skipping over those issues.

I know very well some of the issues in California. I lived there during the Reagan administration. The state has steadily gone downhill since that time. California is a model of how NOT to run a government. They keep making the same mistakes over and over. Arnold Schwarzenegger was the one who mentioned the costs of having illegals in the state and the cost of them using emergency rooms, etc., at state expense. In case you missed it, he is the governor of California. California keeps putting more and more taxes and spending more and more money on things that they have no business doing and they wonder why they are in trouble. That is what happens when you buy votes. At some point you run out of money. It is what happens when you have more people living off the government than working to support the government. About the only difference in what is happening in California and the federal government is that the feds have printing presses to print more money. In case you went to public schools you may have missed some of the events that have happened in the world. Socialism doesn't work. It has failed in EVERY country in which it has been tried. Those who have tried it have their own version which they try to convince themselves that their system will work. IT HASN'T. Socialism has an inherent flaw. It takes the incentive to produce out of the picture. This country was built on self determination an freedom. Whether it is socialized banking, cars or healthcare, it will not work. I remember seeing some of the cars made in the old USSR and some of the other communist countries. Some people like to call them socialist countries. Poor quality and all black. Healthcare will be the same. Poor quality high cost to the taxpayers. Of course, those who are living off the current system won't need to pay anything since those of us who do work will be supporting those who don't. By the way, I also remember seeing breadlines and limited store items under socialism in some of these countries you tout with such great healthcare. This will not stop at healthcare. We can expect to have people who have no experience in healthcare or business to run these new bureaucracies.

I LOVE IT !!!!! You can't get this on FOX or MSNBC. Real, honest people that have different perspectives on an issue. Both pushing their view in a well thought out way. I have learned soooooo....much from BOTH sides. Gives me food for thought. And you didn't have to attack each other to do so. Please continue. :clap:


Ridge

This is a pretty civil discussion, and although I may not have much to add, it is interesting to see peoples' different points of view expressed rationally.

xxxxx

I don't recall anything in the constitution about enslaving people. I have never believed that any people should be enslaved. Keep in mind that most people in this country never owned slaves. Also keep in mind that it was their fellow countrymen who captured and sold them into slavery. By the way, that is still occurring in some areas of Africa.

I am not so sure that giving women the right to vote was in the best interest of our nation. Some women are more apt to vote based upon a candidates looks than real issues. I have had numerous women tell me over the years that they voted for a candidate because they looked good. That isn't a good reason to vote for a candidate. Perhaps we should go back to the way it was when I grew up. In order to be able to vote you had to take your tax or property receipt with you. You could only vote if you were a property owner. We seemed to have a more responsible electorate back then. It makes a difference when you are the one paying the bills.

1. The current system limits the number of prescriptions one individual can receive. I don't see that changing with a new system.

2. You throw a lot of percentages and figures around but fail to give your source. Your answer is to get rid of profit in favor or higher taxes? There is no competition with taxes. If the government wants to raise taxes all they need do is pass a bill. It is a little different in the private sector where you have competition for your dollars.

You continue to compare this country with others. This country is unique in history. It was an experiment that was extremely successful. Our forefathers built the most successful economic powerhouse in the world out of the wilderness. One reason these other countries have fallen behind in many areas is due to socialism. BIG GOVERNMENT DOESN'T WORK! For a country or society to be successful they must be productive. The bigger government becomes the less productive a society. If you had any sense of history you would already know this. History does repeat itself. What we are seeing now has been tried before and failed.

Unlike Polio, aids was initially spread by behavior. About the only way you can get aids was to exchange body fluids or in an infected IV. Two entirely different diseases. Getting polio had nothing to do with behavior. Cancer drugs and other types of drugs are expensive due to the cost of development and greed. Just because the government pays the bill doesn't mean the cost will necessarily be less. In reality we may actually see less new drugs and innovations.

I don't know where your head is if you think healthcare isn't regulated. It is one of the most regulated industries in this country. If it isn't done just right the provider winds up in court. Again, you list figures for the cost of malpractice insurance. What is your source? Much of the cost has to do with providing a paper trail for the government and lawyers to protect themselves from litigation.

I lived in California during the Reagan administration. The standard and quality of living was pretty good. It was just after his administration when they dramatically started raising property taxes that things went awry.


California's problem isn't that they cannot raise taxes. It is that they spend too much money. They don't know how to balance their budget. You don't spend money you don't have. Until the politicians and people of California realize that things won't change.



Socialism doesn't work. It has failed in EVERY country in which it has been tried. Those who have tried it have their own version which they try to convince themselves that their system will work. IT HASN'T.

East Germany, USSR, North Korea, Cuba, China, France, etc.,


Socialism has an inherent flaw. It takes the incentive to produce out of the picture. This country was built on self determination an freedom. Whether it is socialized banking, cars or healthcare, it will not work. I remember seeing some of the cars made in the old USSR and some of the other communist countries. Some people like to call them socialist countries.


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< social insurance socialist >



so·cial·ism http://l.yimg.com/a/i/edu/ref/ahd/t/pron.jpg (shttp://l.yimg.com/a/i/edu/ref/ahd/s/omacr.gifhttp://l.yimg.com/a/i/edu/ref/ahd/s/prime.gifshhttp://l.yimg.com/a/i/edu/ref/ahd/s/schwa.gif-lhttp://l.yimg.com/a/i/edu/ref/ahd/s/ibreve.gifzhttp://l.yimg.com/a/i/edu/ref/ahd/s/lprime.gifhttp://l.yimg.com/a/i/edu/ref/ahd/s/schwa.gifm) KEY

NOUN:

1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
2. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.

com·mu·nism http://l.yimg.com/a/i/edu/ref/ahd/t/pron.jpg (khttp://l.yimg.com/a/i/edu/ref/ahd/s/obreve.gifmhttp://l.yimg.com/a/i/edu/ref/ahd/s/prime.gifyhttp://l.yimg.com/a/i/edu/ref/ahd/s/schwa.gif-nhttp://l.yimg.com/a/i/edu/ref/ahd/s/ibreve.gifzhttp://l.yimg.com/a/i/edu/ref/ahd/s/lprime.gifhttp://l.yimg.com/a/i/edu/ref/ahd/s/schwa.gifm) KEY

NOUN:

1. A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.
2. Communism
   1. A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.
   2. The Marxist-Leninist version of Communist doctrine that advocates the overthrow of capitalism by the revolution of the proletariat.

Poor quality and all black. Healthcare will be the same. Poor quality high cost to the taxpayers. Of course, those who are living off the current system won't need to pay anything since those of us who do work will be supporting those who don't. By the way, I also remember seeing breadlines and limited store items under socialism in some of these countries you tout with such great healthcare. This will not stop at healthcare. We can expect to have people who have no experience in healthcare or business to run these new bureaucracies.



We will continue to spend more money on healthcare as long as we demand more from our healthcare providers. It will cost more whether it comes from the private sector or the government. The main difference is that it will cost more when it comes from the government. We would do much better if we started using natural remedies for many of our health issues. But it won't be as profitable for the government or private sector. Throwing money at things such as education hasn't worked. When the government changes history and fails to teach the basics you have an uneducated populace. We need to get the government out of our education if we expect to compete in the global market. As far as expenditures on the things you listed, it is relative to the individual countries GNP and goals. There is no war on drugs in this country. There is too much profit and it is such a good political football that neither side is willing to do what is necessary. As long as there is demand there will be drugs. Closing the southern border would help reduce supplies but you will NEVER stop drug use until you change people's attitudes. And as we have already witnessed, change for the sake of change isn't good.

GMAN-
I don't recall anything in the constitution about enslaving people. I have never believed that any people should be enslaved. Keep in mind that most people in this country never owned slaves. Also keep in mind that it was their fellow countrymen who captured and sold them into slavery. By the way, that is still occurring in some areas of Africa.

I said that slavery was legal when the constitution was written, not that the constitution specifically allowed it. In fact, many of our founding fathers were slave owners and many who did not actually own slaves benefited from the practice.

GMAN-
I am not so sure that giving women the right to vote was in the best interest of our nation. Some women are more apt to vote based upon a candidates looks than real issues. I have had numerous women tell me over the years that they voted for a candidate because they looked good. That isn't a good reason to vote for a candidate. Perhaps we should go back to the way it was when I grew up. In order to be able to vote you had to take your tax or property receipt with you. You could only vote if you were a property owner. We seemed to have a more responsible electorate back then. It makes a difference when you are the one paying the bills.

Wow. So now we are starting to see how you really feel about things. This is so far out in la-la land that I really can't bring myself to start in on it. Anybody out there want to help? Dobry, are you there? Just for starters, I wonder how many men voted for Palin because they thought she had a nice butt.


GMAN-
1. The current system limits the number of prescriptions one individual can receive. I don't see that changing with a new system.

How does it do that? What is the current system? You accuse me failing to provide sources. I want to see your source on this.


GMAN-
2. You throw a lot of percentages and figures around but fail to give your source. Your answer is to get rid of profit in favor or higher taxes? There is no competition with taxes. If the government wants to raise taxes all they need do is pass a bill. It is a little different in the private sector where you have competition for your dollars.

I can provide a citation for any number I use anywhere in anything I write. I do the same for any factual statement I make as well. That's the big difference between what I write and what you do. I use facts and numbers. You use nothing but opinions gleaned from what ever lunatic right wing radio program you have listened to on a given day.

There can be plenty of competition with taxes. Don't road construction projects get multiple bids? Postal Service trucking contracts have gotten hugely competitive. I don't think it's right for any corporation or industry to reap huge profits at the expense of the health of the populace..

GMAN-
You continue to compare this country with others. This country is unique in history. It was an experiment that was extremely successful. Our forefathers built the most successful economic powerhouse in the world out of the wilderness. One reason these other countries have fallen behind in many areas is due to socialism. BIG GOVERNMENT DOESN'T WORK! For a country or society to be successful they must be productive. The bigger government becomes the less productive a society. If you had any sense of history you would already know this. History does repeat itself. What we are seeing now has been tried before and failed.

I hate to break the news to you, but we are the country that is falling behind. That's exactly why we need change. What is wrong with comparing this country to others? When you say we are “unique in history” aren't you comparing us as well? History does repeat itself. All empires eventually fail. Ours is in danger of failing now if we don't make some substantive changes.

GMAN-
Unlike Polio, aids was initially spread by behavior. About the only way you can get aids was to exchange body fluids or in an infected IV. Two entirely different diseases. Getting polio had nothing to do with behavior. Cancer drugs and other types of drugs are expensive due to the cost of development and greed. Just because the government pays the bill doesn't mean the cost will necessarily be less. In reality we may actually see less new drugs and innovations.

1.AIDS was initially spread into the human population by someone eating meat from an infected animal. It can spread almost as fact through unprotected heterosexual intercourse as through sex between two men. Contaminated needles don't distinguish who they infect.

2.We are talking about the cost of developing a drug. I wasn't aware that we were limiting the discussion to the cost of drugs used to combat diseases that you approve of. I'll wager that Viagra and Prozac both cost more to develop than the Polio vaccine.

GMAN-
I don't know where your head is if you think healthcare isn't regulated. It is one of the most regulated industries in this country. If it isn't done just right the provider winds up in court. Again, you list figures for the cost of malpractice insurance. What is your source? Much of the cost has to do with providing a paper trail for the government and lawyers to protect themselves from litigation.

How is it regulated? Provide an example of a regulation that limits what a provider can charge or mandates a specific treatment for a certain condition.

You can find information on the cost of malpractice insurance easily, from a number of sources on the web. Here's one link; New Study Finds Medical Malpractice Insurance Premiums have Minimal Effect on Health Care Costs NCL’s Savvy Consumer Blog

GMAN-
I lived in California during the Reagan administration. The standard and quality of living was pretty good. It was just after his administration when they dramatically started raising property taxes that things went awry.

It was Reagan who started the tax cutting frenzy. When he closed the local state-run mental hospital, all those people went out on the street and became a huge burden for local law enforcement and the county health care system.

And to show how little you actually know about this subject, consider this; Property taxes were not raised after his administration, they were dramatically lowered with the passing of Proposition 13. Proposition 13 has completely distorted tax revenue generation for the entire state. The other big problem is that politicians, some would argue beginning with Reagan, have discovered a sure-fire way to get elected and become wealthy; Promise to cut peoples taxes (They fall for it every time) so you can get in office and start to receive the beneficence of all the corporate lobbyists. That's when you make your connections so that when you leave office you can go to work in one of the industries that your former committee was in charge of regulating, or become a lobbyist (or consultant) yourself. It worked great for Dick Cheney

GMAN-
Socialism doesn't work. It has failed in EVERY country in which it has been tried. Those who have tried it have their own version which they try to convince themselves that their system will work. IT HASN'T.

Can you name some examples please?

GMAN-
East Germany, USSR, North Korea, Cuba, China, France, etc.,

So you name four communist countries, France (Which is not socialist, but is considered by numerous surveys to have the best health care in the world, which is what I think we were supposed to be talking about here) and etc. Where is etc.? I can't find it on any maps. We know you have 5 out of 6 wrong. I would like to find etc. so we can make it 6 out of 6.

And you have now proved that you can cut and paste a bunch of links. I want to know if you can, in your own words, describe the difference between communism and socialism. You should be able to do it in two sentences, max. And no fair calling Rush for help!

GMAN-
We will continue to spend more money on healthcare as long as we demand more from our healthcare providers. It will cost more whether it comes from the private sector or the government.

This is pretty much a point I have been trying to make to you all along. Health care is expensive because it has become very complex. It has become complex because everything else has gotten very complicated too. We cannot rely on simple measures to solve complex issues.

GMAN-
The main difference is that it will cost more when it comes from the government.

The data from the rest of the world indicates that this is not true.

GMAN-
We would do much better if we started using natural remedies for many of our health issues. But it won't be as profitable for the government or private sector.

This doesn't make sense. Are you saying that BOTH government and the private sector are generating unusual profits under our current system? If so, then you are arguing against your own position here. I submit that those are indicators that we need reform.

GMAN-
Throwing money at things such as education hasn't worked. When the government changes history and fails to teach the basics you have an uneducated populace. We need to get the government out of our education if we expect to compete in the global market.

Government sponsored education is a large part of what drove us to the top of the economic pile. If we get government out of education and turn it over to the private sector, it too will become driven by profit, not quality. When I think of this I see Halliburton signs on schools.

GMAN-
As far as expenditures on the things you listed, it is relative to the individual countries GNP and goals

The reason you use % of GDP is that it gives you an accurate snapshot of the relative expenditures of each nation. It's macro economics 101. We are spending way too much on health care, prisons & the military. If we allow it to continue we will fail as an empire.

GMAN-
There is no war on drugs in this country. There is too much profit and it is such a good political football that neither side is willing to do what is necessary.

I didn't make up the term, Richard Nixon did. It's been used by so many people that it is now part of the general lexicon (although I think Obama said his administration would not use the term, he has continued the policies).

GMAN-
As long as there is demand there will be drugs. Closing the southern border would help reduce supplies but you will NEVER stop drug use until you change people's attitudes.

If what you are trying to say is that you can't legislate morality, I agree

GMAN-
And as we have already witnessed, change for the sake of change isn't good.

And failing to change when it is necessary will leave us on the trash heap of history with the Roman Empire, the Ottomans and every other once great nation that was too proud or self-indulged to make the sacrifices required to survive.

Reason why they are going up its because they want more money. I would rather pay taxes and lower our healthcare costs, than pay premiums and raise someones multimillion dollar bonus. They will never lower prices as long as they are all in the bed with each other and all of these politicians who never lived under the laws that they pass, or have forgotten how it is to live under them..





Mike, i know more Americans that are living off of our system than i do Hispanics.

NO ONE CAN LIVE OFF OF THE SYSTEM IF THEY ARE HERE ILLEGALY. I dont care what someone told you, it is not true that illegals are gaming our government, ITS THE OTHER WAY AROUND !!!

We pay many taxes in this country and if we only used that money wisely we could probably pay health care costs for the entire American continent, not only this country.




It is a slavery but in a legal kind of way. These people pay taxes Mike, (there are those who do not just like regular Americans but vast majority does). They pay taxes but get nothing in return. Whoever told you that illegals get food stamps is lying. I had my wife read some of these posts here and she is laughing at the amount of miss conception that is out there, no wonder why people hate immigrants.
This country was built on the backs of immigrants, legal and illegal.....And this country gets most of its benefits from those who are here illegaly than from those who are not, as those who are, do not have to be cared for..Healthcare is the same way.





Prescriptions are just one example of us overpaying for something that we should not. Everything else related to health care in this country is the same way. You can never know how much you are being played until you go outside of the box and look at the things from a different point of view. I told you this before.

Canada is one of the richest nations in thw worls with population of just little over 33 million. Most of that country is still unexplored. It is very rich with minerals and oil. Most of my work in this past week has been there, picking up in Nephton,ON mines and delivering down south. They are not in debt and can never be in financial difficulties in the long run. We are there in the short and long run. We can only wish we were Canada.

Oh BTW, If you're going on 401 you'll see them REMODELING their plazas/rest areas, not closing them down.



Trust me, our government is not taking care of our every need. This country is the only one out there, together with probably Somalia that does not have any kind of a social safety net in the case that people loose their jobs or get sick. No one will help you. That ,,free health care'' has been thrown around by those who do not want to change our ways. IT IS NOT FREE, WE WOULD PAY FOR IT !!!!!
It has gotten ,,just fine'' for 200 years but look at where we are today because of it?

Rest of the world is catching up and catching up fast. In 20 years China will reach our level of sophistication which took us 200 years to reach. WE MUST CHANGE or be left to rot.....
I dont want us to rot, i want us to succed and be that beacon of freedom that made this country what IT WAS.....once am sad to say.




Healthcare costs have gotten out of control in every instance, every aspect of this buisiness has gotten more expensive...

No one can stand up against a trillion dollar machine if we(the government) do not, its simple like that.
We ,,can'' or we ,,wont'' do it, there is no ,,we cannot''....WE CAN DO ANYTHING WE WANT, WE PUT A MAN ON THE MOON..but only if we put our mind to it.

We need to stand up and demand the government get out of our business and our lives. It isn't the insurance companies but the government and control that is the problem. I don't want to give up any more of my freedoms in exchange for a government check. These people don't want to help. They want to control. When they implement a social program they exempt themselves. These people don't have the common sense or compassion to run our government or healthcare. They do want to control.

There are things which should be changed. Moving our healthcare into total government control isn't the answer. Just look at the mess they have made out of social security.

Getting this back somewhat on subject, I dare someone on here to define "succeed in trucking."

No I have not read the book, nor do I have any interest whatsoever in doing so either. The premise to the book was presented, and people commented on that (not the book). This isn't a book report thread. By all means start one, and title it "Audio books that are fun to read."

I like the truck in your logo, Flying W. I suppose we have drifted off subject. As far as a definition of succeed or success in trucking is concerned, I will give it a try. I would say that someone who is successful in trucking is someone who has earned a decent living for several years and paid off his equipment. He is someone who has faced adversity and won. He has seen the ups and downs of this business and has stuck it out through good times and bad. I don't necessarily think that someone must own more than one truck to be considered a success in trucking. It isn't the number of trucks but how well he has managed his assets and business. He places value on his service and refuses to haul for less than it costs to operate and earn a profit.

Thanks as I love cabovers, and wish I had the chance to drive one (especially a K100). Now to figure out how to get a K100 photo small enough to be the avatar (it is hard to find a 64kb photo, and I'm not exactly sure how to reduce a photo in size if possible).

I just offered that as a means to get people to think of success as not only a matter of $'s. The discussion on health insurance was interesting. All I've got to say is I sure hope I stay healthy no matter the result.

I like some of those old cabovers. I almost bought one that had a 100" sleeper and a queen size bed. It was a Peterbilt. That was when I hauled cars. I don't remember the year, but it had a doghouse. I was relieved when I found that the engine blew a few weeks after I looked at it. It was a nice truck. I believe it has a 425 CAT.

I love European style cabovers that Volvo makes, Renault as well. I wish i can own one of those.