slow flatbed freight
 

is it just my co or is that slow out here? i used to make 2,500 - 3,500 a week to the truck. been down to 1,200 ave. been dead around here. basically haul steel coils. used to get my choice of 4-5 different loads daily. always loaded on a fri to run up north . mi, oh. il, area. it has been over a month since i had a load going north or loade on a fri... loading out of north al area..

I can't help you, but I'm waiting on the answers with great interest. Just tonight I've been wondering if I should be pulling flats to make more money. So you guys feel it too, huh?

I can not speak for the rates, but Flatbed loads in the area of back home out numbers the loads for Dry Van and Reefer loads. On one of the load boards there is 711 flatbed loads, 586 Dry VAn and 398 Reefer loads all within a 100 mile radus of my home town. What I did find strange there are 3 Dry Van loads and no Flatbed loads coming out of my home town, and it more a flat bed load area.

I don't know what it was like before but since I've started I have no problems getting loads.

Cam, you will have so much work you'll need to start crapping in the cab to save time.

Started doing this eleven years ago and still waiting on my first cab crap. Could happen, noticed you were right at the intersection of BFE and Timbuktu in the middle of the winter when you...had your first. :lol:

I like that about plenty of freight, though. I could never get Gman to simply say, 'yeah, flats generally is better.' :P I need to change something.

I'll bet Prodigy isn't sitting around,with all that mega-carrier frieght he's got........ :?

Volumes for all have come up, although it looks like flats are still lagging a little. The problem is that rates have been slow to adjust and that seems to be magnified with the flats. Of course, they say that the housing market accounts for something like 20% of flatbed freight, so it makes sense. Flat and reefer always pay better than van. As far as differentiation between the two, it depends on where you're at, the time of year, and what the economy's doing. You've got more flexibility with open equipment since it's much more conducive to putting together LTL loads.

I can't say about anything other than flatbed but I've only been stuck 2 times for 2 days without a load. There were loads but I didn't take them because they were like $1.10 to $1.25. I've since changed my mind realizing that good freight is just 1/2 day away and I will gladly take fuel and truck expense money to get there.

This morning I was in Tulsa Oklahoma and shut my phone off at 8:30 to stop it from ringing. There were over 900 flatbed loads available on just one load board within a 100 mile radius.

That happens in PA also and plenty of flatbed stuff going to OK from there so you could just go back and forth.

I'm in it for the adventure, fun and to make some money. I want to see the U.S.. I like being out in the middle of nowhere where it's not safe to leave the truck at night for fear of being eaten by a bear. Yes, I was already in a small rest area with a sign to that effect.

I'm doing just fine and it's really not that much work except when you have to tarp an odd load.

Cam, I think if you do switch to flatbed you will have to crap in the cab or a bear will bite your ass off. Flatbed loads in my experience has led me to the most out of the way places that there just aren't any services. I've learned to keep my truck stocked with everything and fueled up.

Thanks Steve, and I hear you on the adventure, too. The wide open American West is like Heaven on Earth compared to a lot of places. Seriously, I've been to places like Hong Kong where the people practically live on top of each other. Nice to visit, but... I met a young woman from South Africa who was living in Hong Kong. Evidently South Africa can be a bad place to live and she was really an expatriate looking for a home, something we can just take for granted. Hong Kong was an improvement. Heaven on Earth, the American West.

Let me give you a contrasting situation. I delivered in Tobyhanna, PA this morning. I get calls about loads from time to time and some of them are even ok. Problem is, if it's 'ok' it's gone by the time I call and I'm calling back right away. Not crying (not at this particular moment), just contrasting. I think I need to put a stop to this. The information you're sharing just screams it doesn't have to be like this. Need to pray about it. Ponder...but, I do need to fix this.

I got my truck paid off the first year. The concept is to be flexible and to do what it takes to make money with your truck. Staying with the same company or the same kind of system or the same kind of freight...I say all these things have got to flex as well. Enough of jumping through hoops to get a load.

You're just a stones throw away Cam I am sitting in NJ waiting for some hours,kinda tough turning these loads down,because I don't have any hours 8)

I know it, $1.50 hub and up against your 70. :cry: :cry: :cry: How many guys who dispatch themselves are ever up against the 70?

My approach has been to not call anyone about a load but just sit there and wait for the phone to ring. Occasionally I send an email and that works pretty good also.

This morning my phone started ringing about 7:30 and I shut it off at 8:30. When I'm in a bad freight location my phone rings about noon or 1pm and it's usually not a bad rate but they need me to move and hustle NOW! They usually don't fool around and I can tell the tone of there voice.

I have a load going from here to there, loads in 1 hour, pays $1,200 for 500 miles. Can you leave NOW? .......YUP!!!

I've learned to be prepared and ready to go at a moments notice from like 11am to 2pm when I'm in a bad area. After that I'm pretty sure the phone won't ring and it's NAP TIME!!!

I have a nice load now. Steel rods about 42,000 pounds, no tarp and easy to strap down and go.

Newbie, you evidently don't know what a bad freight area is. I mean, if only I could have your troubles. :wink: I'm at least a year away from doing anything like you are doing. Things I want to pay down, have to buy a trailer, I don't even have my accounting and tax preparation all down yet. I like what you have going on though, it's what I had in mind. All the freedom and evidently plenty of good paying freight, too.

This is not meant as a negative comment at all,but until we start seeing some hub miles compared to money I'm not so sure.I think Steve has said a couple of time that he is avg. around $1.60 a mile loaded(unless that has changed and he hasn't said) and I know his deadhead has to be around or above 10%.

I've been avg. $2.08 a loaded mile and can only get $1.55 avg. after deadhead,I don't expect Steve to have 25% deadhead like me but it would be interesting to see total miles to gross.

Ok Steve, you're up! But, let me see if I can't figure out a little of what he's thinking.

One, he's happy. He does what he wants to do, goes where he wants to go (within reason, of course), and works when he wants to work. I doubt he'd want to 'sell' all that for a higher rate.

Two, he can, as LOAD IT put it, protect his equipment. He can look for the lighter loads and if he's got to get to the other side of Donner he can insist on it.

Three, he's quite profitable, though that $1.50- hub, company trailer etc., etc., by itself that would be hard to beat.

How did I do, Steve?

You know I have to agree,Steve does have incredible freedom,but he started with a boat load of money paid cash for everything and no offense,but basically doing this as a hobby at this time,while I wish I was in as good finiancial shape as Steve unfortunately like most Americans I am a$$ deep in credit card debt and need to do what I gotta do.

I am more jealous of Steve than critical.

I think it's been soft in the northeast for the past few weeks. 1.40-1.50/loaded mile for flats. The only good loads have been OD.

Yeah, flats are generally better. :P You didn't mention better than what. Cam, it depends on what part of the country you run and the time of year whether flats are better. Flats usually require a little more effort to run due to the tarping and being out in the weather. You are not always out in the elements, but that is the nature of flats. Overall, flat rates tend to be higher than vans. How is that, Cam? :wink:

Care to share how you arrived at that conclusion?

UUUhhhhh....???? Let me guess, this question is a carryover from another conversation/thread to which I am not privy? 8) I never was one for ripping Steve. He's done more in a year than I've done in eleven and that doesn't bother me at all. If he's averaging 1.60/mile loaded and he has a penchant for the longer loads going out West and his deadhead is at least reasonable... :idea:

Yes, I'm very happy and your about right on Cam. I'm making money and my checking account is growing. I don't have a separate envelope for maintenance, fuel, bills or anything else. All my money goes into my checking account. I started a separate checking account when I started this with only about $3,000 of my money put into it. Well, that didn't last long. I ended up taking another $10,000 out of my personal account to keep going. That has since been put back and I now have a little over $10,000 extra in my account and it keeps growing and at a lot faster rate than when I started. I'm bringing in about $5,000 gross a week.

I have 3 big trucking companies that I deal with on a regular basis when there own trucks can't handle the traffic and I'm in the area. There's no haggling over the price and they give me a good rate. They don't call me for status either any more. They know it will be delivered.

I don't need to analyze the crap out of my figures and I'm sure if I posted them here by the time a few of you were done with me I would be making $11,000 a year or something like that.

I go where ever I want, I buy what ever I want, I almost have enough to rebuild by engine if need be and my bills are being paid. I could afford to buy another tractor and make the payments on a loan if something really bad were to happen. To me, that's all the matters and I'm happy.

The loads seem to come easy and I don't have to work for it. My tact of waiting for the phone to ring works well. For the past few weeks my average has been over $2.00 a mile. What my overall average is I don't know, I'm just rolling along.

I don't go home and look at my checkbook and say, wow, I have $12,000 left over and all my bills are paid....I think I'll go out and buy another Harley. I live pretty simple other than my 60" plasma screen. :)
I think once my extra money hits the $20k mark I'll back off from being so frugal.

While the question of profitability has been brought up several times, my question is directed specifically at what you said. I think you're making an awfully big assumption in stating that, "he's quite profitable." Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing Steve at all. My point is that everybody is always so quick to declare an operation profitable when there's really no evidence of that. I've seen just as much anecdotal evidence that there's not much profit in the operation as I have evidence that there is. I'm quite sure Steve's making money, I'm less sure about the level of profit that he's making. However, I wouldn't make a claim one way or the other without being privy to the numbers.

Sorry but I'm not going that route like others have done. This is an area which is so subjective and the cause for many arguments. The only thing I see that comes out of it is some old timers here putting themselves up on a pedestal. I've seen some people by the end of the thread making over $400,000 a year. As far as I'm concerned, Rev is the ONLY one who has posted real figures.

It doesn't matter to me about analyzing my figures. I have a good amount of cash on hand left over for any serious problems, I could afford a truck payment if need be. My checking account is growing and my bills are paid.

I've been doing this full time since November 21st of last year. Do you think someone else is privately funding me? I'm still here and smiling. I did start off with a lot of money. That was all spent on my truck, trailer and equipment. The spare money I had left over went too. That has since been replaced and is growing.

I'm not getting rich by doing this but like someone else said, I have food in my stomach, a roof over my head and the bills are paid. I don't have to answer to 5 different bosses anymore or worry that my company will be sold for the millionth time and I'll have to look for another job.

Well, what am I missing?

-I was using $1.60 loaded average, not fishing story, I think Mike3fan proffered that one (spelling of privy noted, BTW :wink: )
-long average length of haul
-expressly assumed his deadhead wasn't unreasonable

That's revenue

Expenses? Have no idea. Yes, I'm making assumptions but I didn't and still don't feel the need to put together a case I can take to the Supreme Court. If you feel I was misleading somebody don't worry about it because, oh here I go again, assuming, I'm assuming Steve isn't ready to make stock in his trucking company available to the public just yet.

You know, 'quite profitably' isn't something I lose sleep over. If I botched it, if I missed something, I like Steve but quite frankly it just isn't all that important to me.

Not everyone has the same break even point. In Steve's case, he paid cash for his equipment. His level of profitiblity would be different if he had a $2,000/month truck payment. At 10,000/month, he would need an additional $0.20/mile to break even. Fuel costs should be comparable. Both should probably be putting money aside for maintenance. If an owner operator has a $500/month payment his break even would be different than either Steve or the guy with the $2,000 payment.

Another thing one must consider is the level of acceptable profitability. Steve may be happy with an extra $200/week and someone else may be satisfied with $1,000/week. On the other hand, Steve may need $2,000/week to be happy. I am only using these as examples to demonstrate some differences in perception and needs. Each person is different.

You guys use too many big words and now my head hurts.

$2 loaded and they call you.......you're obviously doing something right.

First, just to clear the air...Steve, I'm not attacking you. I don't even think that you're failing. You just get to be the default example because you've been kind enough to post your experiences and everybody points to you as an example. I'm not saying you should post your numbers. I don't claim whether you're failing or not because there's not enough evidence either way. So if one of those claims arises I ask how they arrived at that conclusion. As far as being subjective, Cam may know by now that I only deal in economic profit and there's no subjectivity involved :lol:

GMAN, I'm going to take exception with what you said. It makes no difference whether someone paid cash or financed their truck as far as expenses and profitability go. The only place that difference shows up is cash flow. The guy that paid cash still borrowed money, he just borrowed it from himself. In determining profit, that MUST be considered. You're saying that the break-even point is the point at which your income for the month matches your outflow. So the guy that paid cash has a break-even point $1000 lower than the guy with the $1000 payment. By that logic, if I paid $10,000 for a truck, ran it for a year at your break-even point, and sold the truck for $5000, I'd be $5000 ahead. In actuality, I'd be $5000 behind. Regardless of how the equipment is purchased, the cost must be considered. If someone pays cash, the cost of the equipment is the amortized cost PLUS the loss of investment returns they could have had.

I will agree with you on the question of profit and the fact that different levels are acceptable to different people. But only if we're talking about profit in the proper manner. Some people think profit is whatever is left after paying their bills that month.

Cam, in case you haven't figured it out, I rather enjoy this stuff :lol: At least you guys can carry on an intelligent discussion without anybody feeling the need to get personal. For me, what this all comes down to is that there are way too many operators out there who have no idea what it's truly costing them to run their business. Therefore, they make terrible business decisions. Those decisions affect the rest of us because they directly affect rates. There are guys out there like Pepe who have cut their costs to the bone and aren't worried about what they make above a minimum level. That's ok, many guys like that will be around for a long time. As I've said, Steve could very well be making a decent profit. I'm speaking about anyone in particular, but in general. The failure rate every year for small carriers, especially in a year like this, is extremely high. The reason is bad business decisions and the number one one factor is not knowing the true costs of doing business. You hear it everyday. The guy that just bought a truck and is making "great money." You even hear it from guys doing a brand new L/P with CR England. Where are they in a year or two? Notice the contrast in comments hear between the guys who've been out there less than 2 years and the guys who've been out there 5 or more. Every single Ra Ra! comment you get comes from somebody with relatively little experience. For the most part, the guys that have been out there a long time give support, but it's cautionary.

When I see someone make a claim about their own profitability or someone else's, I say, "Really, are you sure." All I'm trying to do is get them to take a second look, because the odds and my experience say that they're missing something. I will guarantee you one thing. If all O/O's knew how to correctly figure their costs and profits, rates would go up. And aside from enjoying the debates, that's where my interest lies.

No_worries....To step in here for Gman.

The cost of the money needs to be factored in...absolutely. So whether you finance it yourself (cash) or borrow it from a bank, you need to factor the cost of money in. What would Steve have been making on the $ if he had it invested in stocks/bonds rather than the truck? The business also needs to be paying that money back (to himself) as well. That needs to be added to the cost sheet. So I agree with you on that point.

I think where Gman was going was with the total amount that was being invested...ie what are you "investing" in order to run your business...Steve started with a $35K tractor (if memory serves). He did not go out and pay up for a $130K new one. So his cash flow and profitability are different.

Now the question is: should your business be funding the purchase of the next power unit on existing cash flow? I think it should be so that you keep the costs of the tractor (per month) even and are not suddenly jumping your costs per month when it's time to trade in.

Thanks, geomon. You should be planning for your next truck purchase. I recall one owner operator who regularly traded trucks every 2 years. He kept trading until he had a new truck. It worked for him. That is a bit too frequently for me. I don't really care whether I drive a new truck or not. Anything mechanical wears out. At some point, you will need to decide whether you will make major repairs or trade trucks. Either you have the cash to trade or you can finance your purchase and pay interest. One other factor you should consider when looking at paying cash is the cost of borrowed money. Any money you save is money in your pocket.

$7000 in ~6 months. Good info. Thanks for posting.

That's not $7,000 in 6 months, it's money I've been putting aside for a rebuild and it's $12,800 as of last night when I tallied it up.

I as soon as I hit $15,000 I'm going to stop putting that money aside.

I'm not sure how you got one from the other. Saying that a $2000 payment over 10,000 miles means an additional .20/mile implies that Steve has no equipment expense. At the very least, Steve has an equipment expense of $800+ ($35000/3.5 years) and that's not factoring in the cost of money. So the difference between his break even point and someone with a $2000 payment is a maximum of $.12/mile, not $.20/mile.

But if GMAN says that what you're saying is what he meant, then that's good enough for me 8)

I agree that Steve (our crash test dummy for this finance class... :D ) has equipment expense. But it is the cost of the equipment that he is financing that determines the profitability of his business.

He could have gone out and purchased a brand new truck and had a $2500/mo payment...or.....financed it himself with a (on paper payable to the Bank 'O Stevo) $690/mo payment. With freight rates being steady,, which operation will be more profitable?
Variables to add in: repairs on older equipment, larger depreciatoin on the newer truck, reserve for new(er) equpent....?

no_worries,

Are you forgetting to include your ROI in your budgeting calculations for operational expenses? Even if the OO pays cash for the equipment he/she should be getting a return from that investment. That should be calculated in your operational expenses and should be part of that figure that determines profit/loss. This should be happening regardless if you have a $0 payment or a $2000 a mth payment, and adds to the overall operational expenses regardless of the cash buyer or the new truck driver.

Cost of money is relative. If I borrow it from Mr. Banker it costs me more than if I "borrow" it from myself. If I borrow it from myself what would that rate of return been? Depends on which pool of money I borrow it from and the rate of return I was getting... By the time you throw in depreciation and the real cost of that investment there are clear winners and losers as far as investment strategies. For the purposes of this conversation I doubt we really want to go off into opportunity cost, depreciation, and tax implications of the various business strategies.

That said, If I didn't think I could at the very least meet or beat that rate of return by starting my business then I should just leave my money sitting in the bank(or whatever investment vehicle it was in) and go find a job flipping burgers or something else that will pay the bills.

The next point is the point of relative cost and competitive advantage. If I borrow that money from myself and pay for the truck with cash my actual operational costs are in fact lower by not paying that truck payment(on top of my ROI/truck replacement costs escrow). If my cost of ownership and operational costs are lower than the guy with the $1000 a mth payment, or the $2000 a month payment then that is in fact a competitive advantage. The OO in this position has more options than the OO who is carrying those payments. There is opportunity cost that can be a factor. So the new OO buys his truck for say $25k, but then spends another $10k in repairs that sounds straight forward, but there is also the 2 weeks of down time(for the sake of conversation) that the OO ate while in the shop, on the side of the road, or in a truck stop waiting on repairs. What did that cost the OO? Will the overall cost of the additional repairs, and downtime be enough to erase the advantage this year compared to the OO with a new truck and that $2k payment who possibly didn't have this opportunity cost?

The point about who or what makes an OO profitable is all relative to those operational costs, and how that OO is budgeting for those expenses. One OO can show big numbers that look like they are very cash flow positive, but in reality they are taking the money from another category/neglecting another category. They might be able to get away with it, or they might not. As an OO, why would anyone want to leave these things to chance? It is all about freedom and choices and how you manage that cash reserve, plan for the maintenance, and replacement costs, and anticipate the lean times as well as the prosperous ones. Also how risk adverse are you? That may drive how you manage your numbers, leverage, and risk.

I would agree completely that your assessment is spot on regarding a lot of newbies looking at launching a business and not really knowing the numbers. The numbers are the formula for success. I applaud your efforts and interest in pressing this topic to raise awareness. We have all had more than our share of conversations on this forum with fleeced operators that insist they are making good money. If they knew the formula(numbers) they would know otherwise. For some I think it is willful neglect, and with others I think it is possibly beyond their skill set. If this conversation has left some considering getting into this business scratching their heads, then maybe they should get a financial planner, attorney, and accountant to boil it down to the cold hard facts and not just take a leap of faith. Oh, and if you don't have the cash for that kind of professional help then you most likely don't have the funds needed to launch a successful trucking business. Just because you can drive doesn't mean you can run a business.

I personally think Steve has done an awesome job and I applaud is courage, and aggressive take no prisoners drive into this business. I love his posts and his story. Steve makes no bones about the fact that he went into this with the funds to get this off the ground, endure some hardship, and weather some storms(literal and figurative). If the prospective OO has done their homework they should know what kind of cash reserves they should have before pressing forward. People need to know what those numbers are, and they done they need to figure it out before running off to buy that truck.

I know it frustrates new folks to the forum to ask the question how much do they need to make per mile to be profitable. Then forum members say "it depends". It isn't a cop out, it is not a straight forward answer and has many variables. Start by going to the tools section on the OOIDA website and get your hands on the spreadsheets there and start plugging in some numbers. If you don't know what something is going to cost you then come back and ask around. You will get some round numbers to plug into the tools and get your real cost per mile to run a truck, and all of the other parts of the operation. You should get a good idea what it is really going to cost per mile and what you need to do to be profitable. How can you have a successful business if you don't know the numbers? BOL

Longsnowsm

I got fixed expenses too, and it decides whether I'm profitable.

$2500 truck payment
$440 workmans comp
% of linehaul for truck/trailer ins (0$ when parked :) )

Lately I've been running "freighthauler" miles (3000+)


I had to sit 6 days in CA for my trip out at $3.80/mi, and reloading for another 3000 miles at $4.25. My nich requires sitting, then hurrying up and getting there. If you think flat/van freight has seasonal flows, try HHG :lol:

I've got a load paying about $8.00 a mile to THE TRUCK. That does not include the money I'll make for packing the shipments, and any accessorials/fuel surcharge.

It'll have me tied up for about 10 days.

Guess I should add in it's going about 1200 miles, and that statement was directed at Bandit's Cousin, and not anybody else.

$480.00 a month for insurance, and $230.00 a month for workman's comp. No truck payment, and probably $1k in labor and another $1k in fuel.

Longsnowsm,

Since ROI is not an expense, I'm not sure where you're coming from. ROI for an O/O is essentially profit. I think maybe you're speaking of ROI from the perspective of a lender. I suppose you could look at it that way but it seems to needlessly complicate things. If you're talking about ROI as the return earned on the money you borrowed from yourself, well that's essentially the cost of money. The rate of return you would have earned had you not bought a truck. I think we're talking about the same thing, just from a slightly different angle.

I don't disagree with you on your point about competitive advantage. My point was that most guys think their costs are lower than they really are and therefore operate as if they have a bigger advantage than they really do.

Everything else, I think we're pretty much in agreement on :lol:

Geoman,

I don't disagree with anything you said either...but that's not what the post said that I was referencing.

Double

O-tay...and I'll kick my soapbox back under the table... :D