Detroit Series 60 Fuel leaking/present in Oil
 

I have a 1996 Detroit Deisel Series 60 engine. Its the 11.1 liter. The engine dipstick is spotty and appeared to have something other than oil in it. Now, we've had a problem with this engine for sometime with this problem. Going back about a year ago, we changed the fuel injectors thinking that was the problem. Well.. after that, the engine still appeared to "make its own oil". We never had to add any oil to it and we knew that it was the same way before we ever did the fuel injectors. Now, I'm thinking either the job wasn't done correctly or there is another reason for it. To counteract the fact that fuel is in the oil, we've been doing oil changes every 3000 thousand miles instead of 12000. That works a little, but not really a fix. Two weeks ago, the bus was out on tour and it kept overheating. So, sure as heck, we changed the oil and it wasn't over heating anymore. Im sure after a good while, it will start to over heat again until we either change the oil out again, or fix the problem. Any help in toubleshooting what may be causing this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks so much!

Complete overhaul

Are you sure it is fuel in the oil? Could it be water? If it were fuel in the water I would think it was the injector sleeves, especially since you recently had them changed. It can be easy to crack or damage an injector sleeve when you work on the injectors.

I'm definitely sure that it is fuel in Oil because of two reasons; One, it was a problem that we difinitively found by an oil sample sent to lab and results showed fuel in oil. And two; The same indicators that showed when we had that test, are also evident now. In addition, something is definitely thining out the oil. If it were coolant, would I eventually have to add more coolant to the radiator. In this case, not so. However, fuel smells on dipstick and oil seems to over fill itself. Then, like I previously stated, after a about three thousand miles, I need to bring it in for oil change or engine light/ over heating problems will leave coach on the side of the road.

As for the injectors sleeves, I'm not sure what they are doing. I'm at a loss really. Based on what I said, do you still believe that the sleeves could be a problem? I hope that when I had the injectors done, that it was done right. The only problem is that I used a renowned independent desiel mechanic in our area and chose not to use a certified detroit deisel shop. Perhaps that was a mistake.

As for the complete overhall... Do you really think that is the most logical way of dealing with this. Other then this engines described problem, it runs strong and is proven dependable! Side questions; If I did overhaul it, how much does that usually run and what does it intail?

From your post, I don't think an overhaul is needed. It is probably something simple. My experience with diesel engines is that even if it is under warranty, some garages or dealers will attempt to avoid taking care of any problems. I would take it back to the guy who originally worked on it, if it started about the same time. I think it would be much less expensive to have it repaired rather than changing the oil every 3,000 miles. I don't know what you pay for an oil change, but I usually pay close to $200. If you want to over haul your engine, I would count on somewhere between $8,500 to $15,000. I doubt if it will take the higher figure, since it is a Detroit. Usually, if it is the sleeves, you will either have water in the fuel or fuel in the water. I seem to remember something about fuel in the oil, but can't recall exactly what it is right now. I would take it to be checked by an authorized Detroit dealer. They should be able to diagnose it fairly quickly.

Thanks, that's what I think I'm going to do. If you or anyone else could think of anything else it may be, I'd appreciate knowing what you think. I kinda think I don't need to overhaul the engine right now either. If it did come down to that and knowing the costs related, I think it'd be better to utilize the services of a company like, www.arsco.com, who specialize in engine tradeouts. They redo thousands of engines and my detroit series 60 11.1 liter can be replaced for only 7000.00 dollars, competely redone. Well.. appreciate all the help I can get guys. Keep it coming!

I called a local Covington-Diesel distributor and was told by their service department that is most likely an injector leaking that is causing the fuel to be in the oil. I may be either a cracked injector or perhaps a tip has come off of one. At least this will get you in the ballpark. I would either take it back to the guy who originally did the work or an authorized Detroit dealer to check it for you. If it is only an injector it should not cost that much to repair. I think I paid about $800 or so for the last injector I had installed. The part may still be under warranty. I believe that I was told that injectors had a 150,000 mile warranty.

Sweet man.. thanks for all your help. Im going to question that with the guy who done the Fuel injectors. In addition, I think Im going to also take it to the Detroit people to have them over look everything and give me a detailed report why this is happening. Thanks again man!

You cannot get a quality overhaul done for 8500 as only the original parts cost that much.....

$8500 is what I was once quoted when I owned a series 60. It has been a few years ago. While I had the Detroit distributor on the phone, I asked him how much it costs to overhaul a series 60. He told me much of what I expected. They had several different levels of rebuild. The most common costs about $12,000 with parts and labor. Some could cost more. Some less. I would say the $12,000 figure would be close in today's market. It has gotten about as expensive as building a CAT. :shock:

I have a friend who payed 18,000 just recently in Jacksonville,FL for a complete overhaul with 250K miles warranty, he chose the best option they had. Dealer had laughed at him when he said that these mom and pop shops are charging 8500 ( which BTW i got quoted as well ) and told him that PARTS ONLY COST THAT MUCH and that ALOT of shops put aftermarket parts while doing a overhaul.....

Mike, 18,000 id give in a heart beat if i know the original manufacturer has done the job on my truck just as they do thousands of those each year, mom and pop will charge you less and they are the ones that people have problems with when comming back to fix whatever work they had done. I treat my truck with respect as any O/Op should and will give him the best possible care available, you wouldnt take the member of your family to a secondary hospital for a operation, you'll take them to the best one,right, regardless of a cost !


My 02

I would not have a problem with a small shop repairing my engine with one exception. If you have a problem on the road, you may not be able to get the warranty covered. But then again, even if it was done by an authorized dealer, you may not get it covered, either.

So, here's the update... I took the coach to a local dealer to check out the series 60 engine. They looked into the engine and noticed that one of the fuel injectors was leaking and another was the wrong type of fuel injector that didn't belong in that type of engine. Needless to say, I was somewhat shocked about that, because I just had the injectors done 8 months ago by my normal (not D/D authorized) mechanic. Anyway, upon removal of the injectors they discoved that the engine had coolant under the injector in the (??? cylinder head or something like that). Anyway, they originally said when they thought it was just the injectors that the price would be about 1200 dollars to replace all the injectors and get it up back together. But when they noticed the coolant leak/ problem they told me that would require much more labor and a part that costs 2700!! That would end up running up a bill of about 5000.00 dollars just to fix those items. Even then, the warranty would be limmited because he suggested with damage that was already caused to the engine would have voided the warranty. Additionally, even if there was a failure, which he felt was possible, it would only be the injectors that was covered. It was then that I asked about the STEP UP programs. ie; Reliablit rebuilds. He explained that they have them in different levels and further explained that I needed at least a level two to give the engine a warranty and get it up to par. He further noted that the warranty would include a year or 100K miles and the cost would be 10 thousand dollars, but noted that I could get an extended warranty if I'd like at an additional cost. I was somewhat confused what to do but was pretty sure that I didn't want to just spend five grand then still run into problems later. But then again, this is more then I expected to spend. So, I went on to ask... What is included in the Step Up 3 program? And he said that it included everything step up TWO included but also a Water Pump, and a couple of other parts, plus the warranty would be good for 2 years and 200K miles. I asked how much that one would cost and he stated that it was 12 thousand bucks. Then just for curiosity, i asked what the Step Up four was and the costs related. He said, step up four included compelete engine removal and replacement with factory redone engine and 250K warranty (i beleive warranty info to be correct??). The cost was 22500 dollars which included all labor. So, after thinking long and hard about it, I gave the green light for the Step up 3 program and will have the coach back on Thursday.

So, that is the stroy of my leaking Fuel into Oil thread. So, my last question to you guys is this; Do you think I made the right decision? Thanks. ;)

So, here's the update... I took the coach to a local dealer to check out the series 60 engine. They looked into the engine and noticed that one of the fuel injectors was leaking and another was the wrong type of fuel injector that didn't belong in that type of engine. Needless to say, I was somewhat shocked about that, because I just had the injectors done 8 months ago by my normal (not D/D authorized) mechanic. Anyway, upon removal of the injectors they discoved that the engine had coolant under the injector in the (??? cylinder head or something like that). Anyway, they originally said when they thought it was just the injectors that the price would be about 1200 dollars to replace all the injectors and get it up back together. But when they noticed the coolant leak/ problem they told me that would require much more labor and a part that costs 2700!! That would end up running up a bill of about 5000.00 dollars just to fix those items. Even then, the warranty would be limmited because he suggested with damage that was already caused to the engine would have voided the warranty. Additionally, even if there was a failure, which he felt was possible, it would only be the injectors that was covered. It was then that I asked about the STEP UP programs. ie; Reliablit rebuilds. He explained that they have them in different levels and further explained that I needed at least a level two to give the engine a warranty and get it up to par. He further noted that the warranty would include a year or 100K miles and the cost would be 10 thousand dollars, but noted that I could get an extended warranty if I'd like at an additional cost. I was somewhat confused what to do but was pretty sure that I didn't want to just spend five grand then still run into problems later. But then again, this is more then I expected to spend. So, I went on to ask... What is included in the Step Up 3 program? And he said that it included everything step up TWO included but also a Water Pump, and a couple of other parts, plus the warranty would be good for 2 years and 200K miles. I asked how much that one would cost and he stated that it was 12 thousand bucks. Then just for curiosity, i asked what the Step Up four was and the costs related. He said, step up four included compelete engine removal and replacement with factory redone engine and 250K warranty (i beleive warranty info to be correct??). The cost was 22500 dollars which included all labor. So, after thinking long and hard about it, I gave the green light for the Step up 3 program and will have the coach back on Thursday.

So, that is the stroy of my leaking Fuel into Oil thread. So, my last question to you guys is this; Do you think I made the right decision? Thanks. ;)

So..A complete overhaul...No?

did you make the right decision???? only time will tell. if after you have work done, the engine gives you many trouble free miles, than yeah, it would have been worth it.

The level three is evidently what my local Detroit dealer was referring. That is probably the most popular. The only difference I see between the level 3 and 4 is that with the level 4, they take your engine out and swap it with a new factory rebuilt engine. I don't think it would be worth an additional $10,000. You are wise to have gotten the new water pump. With the in-frame you should get a lot of use from the truck. An engine is the single most expensive component. I am glad you got to the bottom of the problem. If it was going to cost $5,000 to do the basic repairs, I would have gone ahead and done the rebuild, as well. It would likely have needed to be done before too long, anyway. If you had to do the rebuild in a year or two, you would still need to spend the $12,000 in addition to the $5,000.

hmmm...as an ex- mechanic ill tell you to take anything the service manager tells you with a grain of salt- Then Im curious about the coolant leak and the implications to the warranty- please elaborate.
Also, tell me how many miles that engine has, how long you had it, how you ran it , what oil pressure it was running at idle and going down the road, how much oil it was using and how much blow-by.

Thanks Guys!!! I didn't realize everyone was responding because I didn't look on page two.. lol Anyway, I appreciate all the feedback. You are right GMAN, I would have most likely needed to spend the additional money later in addition to the 12K. I'm looking forward to the rebuilt engine and warranty that I wouldn't have had any other way. In the end it boils down to this I guess.... I just didn't want to get back on the road... Instead, I wanted to get back on the road and stay on the road with peace of mind. That was really what lead me to the overhaul steP up 3. I'll keep you all posted.