Engine Question.....
 

Hi,

I was looking at buying a new truck and had a couples of questions about the engine. I am looking at a Peterbilt 379, and then when I looked at the specs and it said, it said the engine was a C-15 CAT ACCERT. But i also looked at the new model 389, and the dealer told me that that model had a different engine than the current 379 and that they were "unsure" about the engine......because it was the new emissions engine...but I thought the ACCERT engine was the emissions engine...so..basically is there at difference in the engines in the 379 and 389..or is the dealer, not telling me the truth?? Thanks.

Yes there is a difference. 2007 model year was the 379, with the 2003 compliant ACERT engine. The 2008 model year is the 389, they replaced the 379. The 2008 model year engines/trucks are jan 1st 2007 compliant, a totally different and much more strict emission requirement.

Basically this new emission requirement increases the cost of the truck by apporximately $10,000. They will get less fuel mileage, and be less reliable. Cat added EGR to their 2007 compliant engines, as well as particle filters in the exhaust, much like the other manufacturers.

The dealer is right, this new stuff isn't proven yet. If you can get a pre 2007 anything I'd grab it. I'm sure the dealers have a lot of stock left.

Did anyone else hear that Cat will not be making engines for the new trucks because they could not meet the emissions?

I have heard that CAT will be getting out of the highway truck engine market. I can't say that I blame them. It is a real hassle dealing the bureaucrats who know nothing about business. The government workers and politicians make all these rules for everyone to follow but themselves. I hope it isn't true. I think CAT makes the best engine on the market. It seems our government is helping these foreign companies to take over the truck engine market. Just look at Volvo and Mercedes engines.

I was lucky enough to take a tour of the Kenworth factory in Seattle a couple of months ago. At that time most of the engines being installed in the trucks were pre-2007.

A few of the trucks were getting 2007 compliant engines. Some of these were Cats and some Cummins. I did not see any Detroits being installed or on the receiving dock. So Cat is selling 2007 compliant engines.

A couple of things I found interesting: The 2007 compliant engines I saw had hoses running everywhere. It reminded me of the 1970's engines with all the emmission equipment installed. You could barely see the engine because of all the extra equipment.

Also, I was told by the Kenworth rep. that the Diesel Particulate Filter for the Cat engines could be serviced without removing it from the truck. The filter for Cummins had to be removed for service. This entailed more labor and higher maintenance costs. I do not know if this applied to the Detroit.

Although we were not supposed to see it there was a list posted in the plant of people who would be laid off if orders for 2007 compliant engines did not pick up. It looked like about 1/3 of the workforce was on that list. Hope this does not happen.

The Kenworth plant in Seattle builds the W900, T800, T600 and C500 (I believe that is the model). The plant and the trucks were very impressive and the wokers obviously took a lot of pride in the work they were doing. When the time comes for me to purchase a truck Kenworth is definitely a top contender. (Now I need to figure out how to get a tour of the Peterbilt plant in Texas and the Freightliner/Western Star plants.)

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Although i agree with that i must add that we have to start somewhere to bring our emmisions down even it means paying little more, and if you do just pass it to the customer if you are able to.
USA has the worst emmisons on this planet and if we look closely we will see that if we just keep on going the path we are going its not looking good, not only for us but for our children as well.

Our automakers make the worst possible engines as far as fuel milage is concerned with the average MPG driven, we get about 15-20, and thats the reason why Michigan auto industry is going to a crapper and i see it shutting down unless they try to compete with these foreign automakers.

I really think that its all about the politics..

One thing that is never discussed, this new emissions standard actually increases carbon dioxide by making the engine less efficient. You cannot reduce particulate matter, nitrogen oxides, and carbon dioxide at the same time.

Europe doesn't care as much about PM's and NOx as we do. That's why they have more diesels, because diesels are better for carbon dioxide. Diesels create smog, much worse then a gas engine. That's the reason for these standards.

It's got nothing to do with politics. CAT got egg on it's face with the ACERT system that wasn't up to snuff in time when all other engine makers went with a rather simple cooled EGR system. If CAT doesn't want to bother doing what Volvo, Cummins, Mercedes, Detroit and others have been able to do in Europe, that's their loss.

The newer technologies will make things more complicated and expensive but that's just the way it's going to be. You can't advance your technology without spending some money.

Just read up on BlueTec to see whats on the horizon.

That would be a good idea, compare to new 2008 standard, that Acert is a good deal!
Actually, doesn't matter what anybody said, i like my Acert very much.
It performance, is much better, than my old 3406E

Not sure about reliability tho, didn't have any problem for the first 250,000 yet! 8) (knock on the wood) :D
Of course, it's gonna be more expensive to maintain, and to fix, but still a bargain, compare to the newer standard!

the cuts at the renton washington kw plant have already started with more on the way, i`ve got a few friends who got the axe.

luckily most of em have picked up pretty good gigs at boeing...

I do believe it's a political B.S. game with all these new motors.Bottom line is they all get worse millage {some by a lot} than the older engines and more fuel burned is more pollution no matter how you look at it.
As far as the increased cost for these boat anchors being passed on to the consumer,that stops right at the O/O's and goes no further and we all know that.
This round ,like the last round of emissions motors will add in the area of another $10k {close to $20k in less then five years} to the cost of a truck that will get much worse fuel economy,an astronomical maintenance cost for the particulate filter and to add insult to injury they are predicted to not last anywhere near as long as the older ones.
Can anyone explain to me how this can be good for the environment?
BTW Dejanh China is the worst when it comes to pollution,not us.

And even with the higher cost and operating expense of a 2007 truck, there will still be O/O's out there running for less than a buck a mile.

Mudawg, it would be interesting to see how many of those making these stupid regulations are benefiting financially from them. There has been an entire industry (industries) that have sprang up to deal with this environmental nonsense. So much of what these mental amoeba's do accomplishes nothing but harms American industry and the American worker. I think we should all do what we can to help promote a quality environment. I would like to start with most of those lawyers and politicians who come up with this nonsense with pseudo science. Thirty years ago or so, we didn't have all this ridiculous legislation which cripples industry and takes away personal property rights. We seemed to get along just fine. Things were not perfect, but these wackos have blown things way out of proportion and enacted legislation which has proven to be based upon bogus science. Yet, we continue to give in to these wackos who do so much to mess up our lives and economy. The price of a truck is now so high that most first time buyers cannot afford to buy one. When I first started driving in the early 70's you could buy a new truck from about $25-32M. Now look at the price. Much of the increase has been the result of needless government regulations. If you go out and buy a new truck with these new engines you will spend at lease 20% more for fuel on a truck that can cost $135M or more. Freight rates are not that much different from 30 years ago, but the cost of doing business has increased dramatically. It is like a war on American industry. :twisted:

China, Russia and Eastern Europe are the most poluted places on earth. China has NO emmision control laws. Here is a picture of Beijing as it looks today.

http://www.djtravel.homestead.com/fi..._pollution.jpg

There is no other country on earth that has so many trucks, pulling such heavy loads, at average speeds so high, for so many hours before failure as U.S. trucks. U.S. heavy highway trucks are a technological marvel.

I agree GMAN, I think that is exactly what is going on.

I agree with you on China Paul...I have been over there several times on business and no matter where I was (North, Middle, South)....EVERYWHERE looked like a smoggy LA summer afternoon. It was depressing to see that and I'm glad I live here.

But...before I talk out of both sides of my mouth here.....the fact is that our cost of living has dropped due to lo-cost places like China. I hear people piss and moan about "them Chinese" taking over but are the first to get in line to buy that <$1000 Hi Def TV that was made in China.

We can't have our cake and eat it too.

I agree geompn with everything you said. As I grow older I gain ever greater appreciation for the wisdom of our Founding Fathers. They new that economic independece was an indispensible element in political independence. That is why the ONLY tax they wanted our country to have was a tarrif on IMPORTS.

Until the creation of the income tax in the twentieth century our federal government was financed solely and exclusively by import duties and tarrifs. The result was a nation that became the envy of the world.

Caterpillars engines are fully compliant with the 2007 / 2008 emissions. The only engine that I heard that they were having some issues with was the C9 and it is a Medium Duty engine. It was meeting the emissons but they were fighting a fuel system problem.

The last data that I saw for Heavy Duty On Highway Engine Sales had Caterpillar ranked #1.

Do you really think that they couldn't build what everyone else did?? They are looking for a better product not only for On highway but also for their Big Yellow Iron.

We will see just how well that Cooled EGR works in an Off Highway Application. Just look up the fines that Cat payed the EPA for everyone of those NON Compliant engines they sold.

I hope that Cat's competition has done their homework and they don't start killing engines off with the higher EGR that they are feeding into them to meet the new Emissions Standard.