From Catholic Church, to The Boy Scouts...
 

I was a scout leader back in the early and mid 70s. As far as I know, there was no abuse on our troop. But, I can see how easy it might be for someone that is of a mind to "make the most of the situation".

Boy Scouts accused of sex abuse cover-up - Crime & courts- msnbc.com

Even with this, I believe the Scouts are a fantastic organization, but it looks like the screening for leaders needs to be improved. Back when I was involved, there was another problem. That was "getting people to get involved". Most don't have the time to devote. So, much like school bus drivers, they look for a "warm body" to fill the position.

The time I spent with the boys was in my home, with my wife, and often, my own kids present. Obviously, that has not been the case across the country.

I wonder how much of this type of thing is due to people wanting to break down the scouts. I remember a few years ago there were some who wanted gays and girls to get involved in the boy scouts. I am glad that they held to their principles, but I am sure that there are still some who get by the screening. Like you, I remember there being a time when it was difficult to find those who would be willing to get involved with scouting.

A long time ago, I had heard that a pedophile looks for a situation where he can get involved with kids. Scouting, somehow never crossed my mind. Little league, and things like that, yes, but scouting somehow never came up. But, according to that bit of information, it would certainly be suited to them. At this point, I don't think it's a matter of people trying to bring down the organization. That part is still to come. For the time being, these are complaints that date back some 30 years. Once it becomes public, expect them to come crawling out of the woodwork. Some will be real, but there will also be some looking to see what they can get out of it.

And, I remember, also hearing that they target single mothers. Not for the mothers, but in order to gain access to the kids. They really don't care about the women. The guy my ex-wife married after our divorce expected to get close to the grandkids. But, our kids found out about him and it didn't go his way. He's dead now, so they don't have to worry about him anymore. But, there are enough others out there. No, scouting is not immune to it either. Back when I was a leader, anyone that was interested in giving the kids some time, and trying to teach them and have an influence on them, was accepted. I would expect/hope that would have changed in recent years.

Just got done reading an article about the Catholic Church. This is something I had not read anything about in the past. Looks like the scouts are not the only ones that have been sitting on allegations.

The pope's entire career has the stench of evil about it. - By Christopher Hitchens - Slate Magazine

There's more. It suggests that it goes much higher in the church than I realized.

Windwalker said:

Gee.... ya THINK???? :hellno:

How is a grownup male assisting in Little League with young boys so much DIFFERENT than Scoutmasters or PRIESTS.... or "things like that?"

Wake up.... smell the coffee..... and THINK outside the bun! (I mean BOX.)

This idea made me think about the current Catholic crisis, as WELL as the current administration DULY elected to the White House. I think ALL three will probably survive.

Who? Catholic priests? ;)
Oh.... you meant Scout Leaders! :lol:

What caliber did you use? :rofl::lol2:

When did you quit? I've ALWAYS considered you a leader here on CAD! Not one that "I" would necessarily follow.... but, a leader nonetheless! :lol:

And for the most part, still SHOULD. But, not without a simple background check at least! They don't make them "interested adults" like they USED to! But, maybe we should make it a challenge to find and identify GOOD people for these postitions, and even ENCOURAGE ones that we know and trust.

Everything is constantly "changing." For good or bad, WITH or without our HELP. An argument FOR "evolution," but not necessarily AGAINST "religion."

If you don't like the direction of the status quo.... (think about the dichotomy in that statement....) then vote for AND contribute to a CHANGE!

Science and evolution teaches us that we can EXPECT change!

Religion teaches us that we can HOPE for change.

We can really afford neither the luxury of "expectations" nor the blissfullness of "hope." The time now is for "action." Not towards anarchy.... but, towards COMMON sense and government.

[Note to self to read Obama's "Audacity of HOPE" cuz I don't think Bush has published his book yet... titled: "Mission Accomplished." :roll: ]

Vigilance is the price of Freedom!

Never more true than today! In SOOOO many ways!

Hobo

Have you read your boy's other book, "Mein Kampf?"

Oh wait, that was Hitler.

Well...no, I guess since they are pretty much mirror images of each other, it's probably relevant.

Of course, I hear your boy has a new one coming out.

"There's a Sucker Born Every Minute - The Sequel"

To be followed quickly by:

"How To Win Power and Be A Dictator To People"

And that will be followed by his masterpiece:

"I'm King of the World!"

Your boy and his boot-licking lackeys are nothing more than a scum-sucking pieces of garbage and I'd consider that a compliment, considering how much lower than that they truly are.

I wonder if those who thought that I was out of line when I compared Obama to Hitler still feel the same way now?

Tar & Feathers are in order!!!!

Accute Cardiac Fragmentation... (He had a severe heart attack.)
This one raised my eyebrows. Not normally a source of compliments. I'm almost tempted to ask, "WHAT HAPPENED"?
You know... I know of a few school districts that are constantly advertising for school bus drivers, and they will train immediately, but I don't ever recall the Boy Scouts advertising for leaders. I got into it because I thought it would be a good experience for my own kids... And it was.
You just HAD to bring politics into it, didn't you... Now, look at what you've done...:pissedoff::lol:

Yes.... I DO. The childish ramblings of the "Bat One" nothwithstanding.... I STILL believe you were wrong in your assessment and "inflammatory" in your speech. But, no thanks to Dubya, you still HAVE that "First Ammendment Right."

Does your "Constitutional Right" to FREE speech so EMBOLDEN you that you would ABUSE fellow citizens who believe differently and would rather not HEAR references to HITLER, when discussing the President of the U.S.A, and by association.... the U.S. Military, ALL "ambassadors of America" to all civilized foreign lands, and every representative of both government AND private businesses located in America, who.... while overseas (and not within the comfort and protection of our borders).... are representing AMERICA in all ways possible to the world's armies, citizens and LEADERS that they encounter?

If you have a problem with Obama (as you obviously do,) then argue FACTS and specific actions attributed ONLY to HIM. I am fairly well versed in what he is trying to do. I'm not so well versed in all the history buffs' versions of truth that they use so freely to assassinate (politcally, though I think they have another preference,) the duly elected POTUS.

I will start taking you seriously when you quit parrotting the "talking points" of the GOP (especially Boehner and Cantor) and the more radical "ramblings" of Hannity and Beck.

When you eventually calm down from this FOXnews induced FRENZY, you will realize that this country is pretty much an equal SPLIT... only with a FEW more Democrats. ENOUGH more in 2000 to have LEGALLY elected Al Bore!

And as for the Healthcare issue.... there are more of us that WANT this bill ..... as a START towards real REFORM of the heallthcare industry including WASTE, Discrimination, fraud, OVERPRICING, unnecessary tests/procedures that ONLY benefit the doctors AND the insurance companies.... than there are of YOU who unwittingly supported George W. Bush in his decision to abandon the pursuit of the 9/11 terrorists... to "settle an old score" against Saddam Hussein and TOTALLY screw up the lives of average Iraqis (and so many more Americans.)

Windwalker said:

Yeah, a 45 slug will DO that. ;)

You mean ME? Okay, maybe I don't flow with slobberish compliments on CAD, but MANY here (especially new members) find my posts informative and helpful. You should consider it a COMPLIMENT that I haven't had reason to be an AZZ towards you yet! :lol2:

Seriously.... I meant what I said about you being a leader here on CAD. More importantly, it seems you've been a LEADER all your life. I KNOW the feeling (believe it or not,) And I also meant that I don't F*CK so much with people who Just interpose INFORMATION or ideas without political discrimination.

We have disagreed before, and may do so again.... but, I respect you. As for what "happened"..... that's a complicated subject. Yeah, me and Twilight had a "come to Jesus meeting," But, it took more.

Well? :hellno::roll::lol2:

I didn't really want to get off on another political thread, but since you brought it up I will answer.

I think you are referring to the Patriot Act when you mentioned the First Amendment under George Bush. I never supported the Patriot Act. I felt that it was a mistake and infringed upon the First Amendment. There are a number of issues that I disagreed with Bush. He was not a conservative.

Obama and the democrats have done everything that they can to silence any opposition. They have been trying to silence conservative talk shows in the name of fairness. The reason there are so few liberal talk shows is because the ratings are not there. Without ratings you can't sell advertising. Media live for advertising dollars.

It is easy to compare Obama to Hitler, but I could just as easily compared him to Stalin or Lenin or any of the other dictators throughout history. Let's see.....he came on the scene and got to cooperation of the media to control what is being dispersed to the masses. Without conservative talking media we would not know that there was any opposition to his views. To hear them the entire country is in favor of this national healthcare tax. It is rare for me to talk to anyone who is in favor of it. He has lied to his supporters when they elected him to office. He promised them bipartisanship and said that he would change the way business was done in Washington. He lied. It is more business as usual, only to a greater extent. He has coerced, cajoled and used our tax dollars to pass the largest spending bill in our history. This is after the largest spending bill in history just after he took office. He has spent more money in his first year than Bush in 8 years. AND HE IS STILL SPENDING!!!! Obama and the democrats have been blaming the rich for all the problems we face in this country. It isn't fair that the rich have so much. He wants to take from the rich and give to those who are unwilling to do their part to work and build this country. That is the tactics that every other dictator has used to rise to power. Hitler came on the scene during a worldwide depression. He blamed business owners, mainly the Jews, for their economic woes. He took over their businesses, property and ultimately killed millions of them when their only crime was to be born a Jew. Stalin and Lenin murdered millions of people in their rise to power. Obama hasn't gotten to the point of mass murder, but his policies are following previous dictators as they rose to power. Obama also made a statement that I felt was appropriate for him a few months ago. I don't remember the exact wording, but he stated that he was going to "RULE" this nation. Others whom I have heard have stated that they wanted to "LEAD" the nation. I found that interesting.

Obama is forcing the largest spending bill or entitlement through congress when the overwhelming majority of Americans DON"T want it. I have heard some polls at over 70% of the people DON'T want this massive spending bill. Even liberal media polls have more people who don't want it than do. I don't know where you get your figures that most people want this bill.

Hitler took over many businesses when he rose to power. If you recall, Obama took over one of the largest insurance companies in the world (AIG) along with two of the largest automobile manufacturers in the world (GM and Chrysler). And don't forget about the banking industry. Hitler had no experience running any business when he took office. Neither does Obama. Hitler hid some of his background from the public. Obama has hidden his heritage and scholastic records from public view. Hitler over saw massive unemployment under his rule. Obama has the largest unemployment that we have seen in modern history. I heard this morning that there have been over 2.8 million jobs lost under his administration.

Hitler attacked organized religion and was very involved in the occult. I don't know if Obama is involved in the occult, but he and the democrats have attacked organized religion, specifically Christianity.

By comparing Obama to Hitler I am not attacking the military or U.S. businesses. That is a democratic thing. Obama refused to vote to send our troops into harms way. His fellow democrats voted to send our military to war and then withheld funds to protect them. Remember families having to send armor to their families when the democrats refused? I certainly do. They wanted to blame Bush, but it was Obama and his democrats that are responsible for killing many of our troops because they chose to put politics ahead of the safety of our troops.

This healthcare tax will not reform healthcare. It is a tax that does not address the primary problems with our healthcare. Litigation is the single biggest cost to healthcare. Tests are performed so that healthcare providers can protect themselves from lawsuits. My wife was in the hospital a few days ago after spending 8 days inpatient only a week earlier. She had a CT scan while she was admitted. Another was done when she was in the emergency room. I questioned the doctor about it and he told me that they did it due to litigation. He told me that they routinely do extra tests to protect themselves from litigation. We all pay a price for litigation, yet there is NOTHING in this bill that addresses that issue. Government regulations are another reason healthcare costs are so great. A nurse that I spoke with during her visit told me that they had to go through 4 people to get a room when previously they could do it with a single phone call. That means that there are 3 more salaries that are being paid that are unnecessary. My wife has a lot of serious health issues. I don't want this bill. I pay enough taxes. There are real issues concerning our healthcare which need to be addressed. Yet, these issues are not going to be addressed. This administration is about taking over this country and pushing it toward socialism. That is the change that Obama plans to bring to this country. They know that if you get enough people receiving benefits from the government that you will insure your power. Lawyers are not going to address issues that affect their industry or their personal income. That is why you won't see tort reform in this bill and it won't be addressed by a democratic congress.

For the life of me, I cannot figure out how people, such as golfhobo, talk about the "ramblings" and "talking points" of anyone who opposes obama, and yes I know the o in obama is suppose to be capital. All of these folks, mostly Beck are just pointing out, proving what the man himself and his minions have said. He claims, obama, he hadn't had much to do with Acorn, but yet there is video of him giving speeches to them. He doesn't talk about what the unions have done for him, but yet there is video of him giving speeches to SEIU and praising Andy Stern, who by the way is the most frequent overnight guest at the white house. He says he doesn't want single payer health care but yet there is video and audio of him talking about doing it a little at a time. I could go on and on with several subjects.

This president is a narcissistic, lying, cheating do what it takes to make me loved kinda guy. I believe everything that is said about him, especially when there is proof to back it up. For anyone to not believe any of this, you are not facing the truth because you don't want to or you are an idiot. Look at where we are from 1yr ago. Look to where we are going. It's not just obama, it's all of his "followers" in his administration.

This man has never led ANYTHING, and he's the president. It's amazing. Have you ever seen the statistics of his cabinet and administration as far as working or being a CEO or any kind of boss in the public sector? It's at the bottom of ALL administrations to date. To this day he talks of "transforming" America. What is wrong with this country? The same country they are railing about is the same country that has made ALL of them wealthy. Put them in charge of this country. Gave them the freedom to say what they want too. Sure we have problems but none that can't be solved without a radical agenda.

What makes this man think I want to work my ass off and give ANY of it to somebody who doesn't want to work? Are you crazy? I have no sympathy for any able body person who isn't working but can stand there in an interview holding a cell phone in new clothes talk about how bad they have it.

Have any of you obama lovers heard his wife giving a speech about how her husband will never "allow" us go back to doing the things we have been doing, living the way we have been? He will demand that we change our ways our traditions. It makes me sick that people are following this kind of stuff.

Have you seen where some restaraunts in NYC aren't serving salt anymore because it's unhealthy? Are you kidding me? Who's to tell me what I can or can't eat. If this healthcare bill passes that's not all they will be telling us we can't have anymore. To think otherwise is foolish, plain blindness.

Everything that has been said about obama by themselves might be fear mongering. All of it together is more than mere coincidence.

By the way. I was ready to vote for this guy before the Rev. Wright story came out. I was done with him afterwards. Since then it has been more than one coincidence after another. Fool me once, shame on you, Fool me twice shame on me, Fool me three times, I'm an idiot.

Sorry for the name calling but I have had it with the kool-aid drinkers. People are waking up, just not as fast as I would like.

Hobo, If you had your way what would you want to see changed and why? You mentioned fraud, discrimination and waste, How would having a single payer (assuming that's what your looking for) system work to lower costs AND provide better care?
Lay it out here for me so I can try to understand where your coming from



BTW sorry WW about hijacking your thread

Very well said!!

I really do enjoy many of Hobo's posts. Very often, he succeeds at engaging the thought processes. However, can we get him away from the helm? This boat took a detour.:eek1:

I want my money back...

Windy: I DID call that a "note to self." Twilight was the one who derailed the thread! (by evoking Hitler. The Rev had a LAW about this... I don't remember what it was.)

When I said I should read his book, it was because it was relative to the idea of HOPE as an alternative to "expectations" of life as we've always known it here in the U.S.

YOU made the statement about "expect/hope." I just got linked to the old saying..... HOPE in one hand and CHIT in the other, and then tell me which one you EXPECT to get filled up first!

My point was that HOPE and EXPECTATION are not the same, and should not necessarliy be linked by a "slash mark."

For you to have HOPED for things to change without EFFORT (or vigilance) on your part is polyannic.

To EXPECT them to change (for the better) without effort is equally as impotent.

They are different emotions/inclinations.... yet, they are both dependent on either prayer or action. To be MORE clear..... one should not EXPECT a change he has not HOPED for, nor HOPE for a change he has not laid the groundwork to allow him to EXPECT.

As for the thread? Get it back on topic if you wish, but it is a SICK one. Let's see.... the Boy Scouts take some kind of oath to GOD don't they? Or at least, they stand for "family and moral values." And the Catholic church assumes moral standing over the lives of so many. If you ask me.... it sounds just like the way conservatives give up their right to free THOUGHT when told what to believe by their "leaders" (many of whom like to find sex with boys/men.) :eek2::thumbsdown:

Wasn't it Reagan who said (or did he just repete [sic]) that one should TRUST but VERIFY? HE was a smart man. Not the best president, but not the worst. Alas.... his downfall was not being conservative enough for HIS party, and not quite liberal enough for ours. Still he served his term limit, and IIRC..... didn't polarize our country the way the Republicans of today (and their mouthpiece FoxNews) have!

One more clarification. I am not against morality and family values. Believe me, I have benefitted greatly from just that from my parents! I am against those who PREACH one thing and then DO another! And I am against those who blindly FOLLOW these people as long as they are being fed "red meat" from them. And I am against ANY form of greed that causes a government leader OR a CEO to put PERSONAL gain above the daily concerns of the middle class who support BOTH of them!

SOME here would call that "Socialism." I call it fair play and a constitutionaly protected right to the "pursuit of happiness." The middle class is NOT very "happy" today! SOME here would blame taxes for the problem. I blame the cost of a tongue depressor in a hospital for it! I blame the fact that people are going bankrupt over HEALTHCARE for it. I blame the oil companies and their windfall profits for it. I won't go so far as to blame "capitalism" for it. Capitalism in theory is good. It is pure GREED (which GOD calls evil) that is to blame. Just HOW MUCH is ENOUGH for these people?

I ask you, Windy.... what do YOU believe is meant by our forefathers' claim that Americans have the RIGHT to "the pursuit of happiness?" Surely that is as nebulous as the right to bear arms, or the right to free (not hate) speech. The OVERWHELMING cause of bankruptcies, suicides, and overall "angst" among Americans today is their DEBT! And MOST of that is due to the cost of healthcare! And for SOME.... it is just the cost of healthcare INSURANCE.... even if they are not currently SICK! :eek2:

Every year, rates go UP! The last I heard, it was like 10 times the rate of inflation OR wages! Why? So the big executives can have a meeting in some exotic place to give awards out to the divisions who "saved" the company the most money by DENYING claims for those who have paid their premiums for years?

The choice to me is clear. The Republicans want to protect the insurance companies and the status quo (even tho EVERYONE agrees it will bankrupt our government within 20 years.) The Dems want to CHANGE it so that middle class and poorer Americans can get the same kind of medical care that government employees get. They're not asking for a "single payer" system. They are not advocating a "gubbermint takeover" of healthcare. They are advocating REFORM that will save both the government AND our citizens money over time.

Although some people are in debt due to healthcare costs, most are in debt due to over spending on credit. They have been buying things that they don't need and cannot afford.

Insurance premiums are costly as is the cost of healthcare itself. What the democrats want to do will not solve the problem. It will only add on more debt that this country or our people cannot afford.

I am not at all happy with all the greed that I see in this country either, golfhobo. It is like a virus that has spread throughout our society. I don't like to see executives rewarded for running their companies into the ground. I also don't like to see so much profiteering by insurance companies and oil companies. I especially hate to see the greed of government employees and our elected representatives. We have greed by those who receive their monthly government check for being non productive even though they are able bodied and complain that it is not enough. We have greed at all levels of society. We have those on this forum that are also greedy. Some feel that they should be paid for every minute of their day, even for taking a shower or eating. Greed isn't just reserved for the insurance and oil industries.

Oh man, I’m shattered! Hobo has insulted me and called me a child!

Boo hoo hoo hooooooo!

More importantly, I find it interesting that you seem to have a thing for me and find a way to interject me into every comment you make. I find that a little uncomfortable as I simply don’t swing that way.

Bwa ha ha ha!

Seriously, when the flames are finally quenched from this administration, you’re going to find that your messiah will have made Hitler look like a choirboy.

In udder words, you ain’t seen nothin’ yet. I wonder, as you watch what he does over the next few years – since you obviously have been oblivious to the first 15 months – if you’re going to remain asleep. Or will you wake up and realize what everyone has been screaming at you. Will it take fighting in the streets and American citizens dead under the heels of your boy’s troops? Will it take martial law and the suspension of elections? Because that’s the direction we are headed, pal, whether you choose to believe it or not. Maybe not today or maybe not tomorrow, but it’s coming and it’s coming fast.

If I were you and your dad is who you say he is, I’d seek him out and engage him on what will happen in the last days. Because it’s happening today. That’s not scare tactics…it simply is what it is.

"The Pursuit of Happiness" is offered to each and every one of us as soon as we are born. WE make our OWN lives. Yes I could go back to college and go get a high paying high falutin job somewhere, but that's just not me, but the opputunity is there just as it is for you, me, and EVERY SINGLE American. If someone is poor, it's what they have chosen to do. If you don't like it, get up off of your lazy ass and go to school. Go to work. Use one of the many "government programs" that are available to you to better yourself. You say some people can't work or whatever? How many stories have you heard of someone getting tired of not having anything or living the way they are and it sucks and lo and behold they found a way to go to school, start their own company, and now they are millionares. LIFE IS WHAT YOU MAKE OF IT!!! YOU!!! Not what somebody else supposedly has done to you. WHOAEST ME!!!

Am I angry? Your damn right I'm angry!!! People like you golfhobo are what is wrong with this country. The GREATEST place on earth and you can do nothing but bitch about it. How many people do you know that are getting on wooden planks or metal tubs in the USA, jumping into the Ocean to get to Cuba, or France, or England, or Venazuala or how many people are climbing the fence to go to Mexico? Again, this country isn't perfect nor will it every be, but it's a damn site better than anyplace on earth that I have been and that is alot of places.

I'm guessing golfhobo you play golf. How many poor folks off the street have you taken with you to play a round? How many people are you helping out with that money you use for greens fees? How about the money you have spent on clubs, clothes, club membership, golf carts. If I'm way off base I apologize. If not, go look in the mirror. Only you know that answer. Can you be honest with yourself?

We all have the oppurtunity to make what we want to be. Haven't you climed out from under that rock you have been living under long enough to hear the phrase, "You can be whatever you want to be"? I chose my life a long time ago. I love what I have done and what I am doing. I have seen the world a couple of times over with the Air Force and these beloved United States of America a number of times over thru driving a truck. I am back working for the Air Force and loving every minute of it.

I am not rich nor do I plan on being rich unless I get lucky with a ticket someday. Is there greed? Sure there is. Just as there is greed with the president and the power he is seeking, but you don't see that. You will never do away with greed. You will never do away with rich people. You will never do away with poor people. Some people are happy being poor, some people are happy being rich and some people, such as myself are happy being middle of the road. I have now and have always had a great life and I wouldn't trade it for all of the money in the world.

I make damn good money and I put a little away for the rocking chair days but I spend alot because that is what I choose to do with MY money. I give money out of my paycheck to a charity of my choice and a couple of local charities of my choice. As I said before, what makes this idiot of a president or anyone else who thinks the same way, that I want them to take MY hard earned money and give it to somebody not of my choice, MY money. Your nuts! I believe in paying my fair share of taxes, but even that is getting out of hand. You start taking my money for some lazy ass, then we have a problem.

Off the subject a bit and then I'll shut up. Yes their are sick people who are catholic or boy scouts, Just as there are sick people who are baptist, boy scouts, ministers, priests, truck drivers, store clerks,moms, dads, coaches, teachers, pilots, firemen, policemen, grandparents, uncles, aunts, brothers, sisters, taxi drivers, politicians, rich people, poor people. Every walk of life contains sicko's. To try to put those type of people into one group is sick! Life ain't perfect bucko!

Sorry for the rant people, like I said I'm kind of angry.

This is the "impossible dream". Taken as worded... You (and I) have the right to seek our happiness in virtually any course of life. No one is going to be allowed to tell us we MUST be doctors, lawyers, teachers, farmers, or ditch diggers. But, it does bring up an interesting "for instance". What if being a murderer or rapist is what makes one happy?

At the time it was written, back in the old country, if your father was a blacksmith, you were a blacksmith. If your father was a farmer, you were a farmer. etc. That was what our forefathers were trying to do away with in this country. Freedom to choose what ever walk of life makes you happiest. But, I doubt that they intended for anyone to find happiness at the expense of others. So, while priests and scout leaders might make themselves happiest by molesting young people, their happiness comes at he expense of others well-being. I doubt that is what our forefathers had in mind.

Get your popcorn ready folks! And don't bitch at me about the increasing price of it! Baby needs new shoes, and I gotta fly to Italy to get them! :smokin:

robertt said:

Wrong. Turn in your membership card to the Fascist/Conservative Party of the USA. You are making an argument that I have made many times. A citizen is NOT a citizen (with constitutional rights) until they are actually BORN! Since many fetuses (who are alive as long as they are "supplemented" by the mother's system, and yet STILL are often stillborn, one is not really ALIVE.... OR a citizen with rights.... until they make it onto the planet breathing on their own! ;)

ROFLMAO!!! This is so typically racist and classist as to not be worth my effort to respond! "I was born a poor black child." :hellno: Good thing I had a CHOICE of what I wanted to be before being born! :roll:

The tuition EVEN in state schools is going thru the roof lately! A young black man doesn't stand a chance to get even a part-time job to pay his way thru without government help!

You say that like you are totally CLUELESS about the lack of jobs in America today.

What? So now you're FOR "socialism?"

Belpre should be here in 3...2....1....

Huh? Are you trying to say "Woe is me?"

You need to take your 99 posts and BACK OFF of that claim.... JACK! I've worked (sometimes several jobs) since I was about 13. Put myself through college (didn't even use my G.I. Bill.) Served my country in the uniform of the U.S.A.F., owned my own business and paid taxes on a few employees, and besides.... we learned recently that MATCAT is the root of all of our problems! :lol:

Um... no! I don't recall doing that. I may bitch about that crook Dubya who nearly ruined it.... but, I have never bitched about the USA.

Your powers of deduction astound me!

None. How many of them have YOU given a nasty, disparaging look towards and told them to "get a job!" ???

Well.... "greens fees" are meant to pay for the JOBS of the guys who maintain the GREENS! My clubs are hand-me-downs from my father. I've NEVER bought a new set (or a single club) for myself. My golf shirts (clothes) are handed down from my older brother. They're like NEW to me! The only time I actually HAD a "membership" my dad "offered" to help pay part of it and it saved me money over weekly costs. Carts? Yeah.... I'm guilty! I'm getting too old and out of shape to WALK 18 holes! But, my DAD can! So I guess I'm suffering enough over THAT one! :tears:

Brutally! How're YOU doing at it?

Yeah. I think that was the ARMY's slogan! I joined the Air Force! It made me everything YOU wanted me to be! :lol:

No you didn't. Like most of us, you made choices as you went along. And you had no more control over the socio-economic status you were born into than anyone ELSE has.

Get in line! I'll bet YOU didn't help BUILD the Interstate system by paying tolls and taking detours like WE did when I was young! But, for what it's worth.... I LOVE what I have done and what I'm doing, too! So, your point was? :confused:

As a truck driver? If so... please tell me how to get into that! I've got a T.S. clearance and would LOVE to make some of that Gubbermint money!

I'm getting all blurry eyed!

No... sounds like YOU have a problem! Your military salary was paid for by taxes! You are probably now working under a government contract.... TAXES! Are there LAZY people on welfare? Sure! I don't like it either. But, what does that really have to do with healthcare reform? You obviously just see it as another "entitlement" program that will cost you money for lazy people. YOU are totally clueless as to the healthcare/insurance crisis in this country. You MUST beleive that you aren't paying for the uninsured NOW thru your taxes! You seem to have bought totally INTO the "political argument" here.... and not the ECONOMIC one. But you are not alone here on CAD.

And your point? :confused:

I don't know.... PEDOPHILE seems to work for MOST of us! :hellno:

NOW you sound like my MOM! :eek2:

Dare I ask just WHAT you are so angry about? Poor people? Taxes? How about CORPORATE WELFARE? Tax cuts for the richest while fighting wars OFF THE BUDGET? Loopholes for businesses to ship jobs overseas? How about a 250% increase in profits for health insurance companies over the last decade (Bush administration) while people are dying for lack of insurance to pay for needed healthcare? Bankruptcies for MIDDLE CLASS Americans who've always HAD a job and insurance.... but have had to lose the insurance and even their HOMES because of a "NON COVERED" medical expense.... and probably loss of a JOB, too?

I'm beginning to see it! :lol:

Well...more of a break-dancing jiggitty hip kinda Hitler.


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Dear golfhobo:

For the record, no I don't give money to people on the corner, ESPECIALLY the same ones you see day after day. Yes I give them disparaging looks. Yes I would like to tell them to get a job, I just haven't ever had the stones to do it. With my luck it would be that 1 in 1000 who actually "NEEDS" help. I'm just not willing to give money to people I don't know on the street, hoping I'll hit that "1", especially when so many admit to drinking or drugging it away, sitting with an I-pod or cell phone in their ear, smoking $4-$5 a pack of cigarettes and signs with every excuse in the book why they are in the situation they are in instead of getting a job, even if it doesn't pay $30hr. My local paper is full of jobs EVERYDAY! (OKC). If that makes me insensitive, I don't care.

I didn't know you had to have a certain # of posts to have an opinion on here. You served, Thank You. That doesn't exempt you from being an idiot, in my opinion. The reason I only have 99 posts on here in 4yrs... JACK!!! is because of this kind of crap here. I NEVER spoke of your work ethic, it was your bashing you twit...honest. I've got other and better things to do than post more than the 5000 times you have, in just a little more time than I've been associated with this site. Your one of those guy's they talk about who sits in his mom's basement in his underwear reading and listening to conservatives, and then bashing them, aren't you?

It's too easy to get on here and call each other names when you don't have to face somebody, I'm not that way, although I've done a pretty good job of it so far. I don't want to be a computer Rambo. I'm on here everyday. Just because I don't "post" daily doesn't mean I don't pay attention. I read all kinds of stuff on here to "keep up" because truck driving is my true passion, I miss it. It just didn't work out for me. I have no regrets though. As I stated, I love my life. It is nice to get on here and tap into the wisdom and common sense of people like GMAN and others who don't engage in this kind of crap. My hat's off to them all. It just pisses me off that I even started on this.

No I don't drive a truck with the Air Force I am an Aircraft mechanic on KC-135's. I have been doing it for 28yrs. I'm a retired E-7 so I was everything YOU and your family needed me to be for 27 of those years...so YOU can back off... JACK!!! I work as a civilian at the local AFB nowadays. I have taken a couple of breaks in that time and alot of part time work to fit in truck driving.

Gosh, you didn't start working till you were 13? I think I was around 10 or 11 when I got my first paper route. Does that mean if we blow up I'll go higher than you? Are you kidding me? To bring that up? How many kids start out at 4,5, 6yrs old working on a farm. What's your point? Wait, I don't care, honestly.

I'm doing pretty good with the honesty thing, don't you think? I've kind of laid it all out pretty plain, I thought.

No I'm not for socialism all of the sudden, just pointing out the socialist programs already in place. Even you admit a young black man, among other races and nationalities, including white, I might add, have a government system to help them out.

You don't know me, my family or my associates so get away from the racist thing...JACK!!! You have no idea where that is concerned.

Yes I was trying to say "Woe is me". Thanks for straightening that out. I wouldn't have wanted you to not be able to figure that one out.

As far as I know, as I said to point out Pursuit of happiness, "as soon as your born", (see previous post), Doesn't that constitute living and breathing? It seems my science classes revealed that.

I'm still contributing to the interstate system, it's called tolls.

You want some of that gubbermint money? Get off your lazy ass and apply, just like I did. They are hiring at your local Base, haven't you gotten the word?

Your right. I do see healthcare and welfare as an "entitlement" program and me paying for a bunch of lazy asses. I thought that was pretty clear and honest.

The point of me naming all walks of life was that their are sicko's in every walk of life, not just priest's and boy scouts, as you were implying.

Be glad I'm not your mom because I'd have you over my knee whipping your arse...JACK!!! Honestly!!!

It's apparent golfhobo your a total idiot, in my humble opinion. I'm through with you and this subject. It's been childish of me and I usally don't do it. Say or call me what you will, I don't care, honestly. I should never have gotten into it anyway. It's just that I'm as passionate about this country and trying to save it as you are about protecting and coming up with excuses for the idiot's who are trying to ruin it. You fit right in, keep up the good work, you are made for each other...JACK!!!

I apologize to anyone who is already as sick of this as I am. I'll go back to my, well 102posts now, OMG!!! Only 5765 posts to go to catch up to golfhobo.

Bumparoo...To golfhob, aka JACK!!!

Robertt,

Politically and in some unspeakable ways... Hobo is from Planet Uranus.
He's always talkin' sheit. :roll:


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[

this was supposed to be a quote but I cit some off Hobo said

Yeah. I think that was the ARMY's slogan! I joined the Air Force! It made me everything YOU wanted me to be! :lol:



ARMY slogen was " BE ALL YOU CAN BE" Geez freakin zoomies get it right!!!

All right, let's all back it down a couple of notches. It's starting to get personal.

And Hobo, you might be laughing in your Latte about your messiah's latest takeover and enjoying rubbing it into those that understand the truth behind it and aren't whipped like you are, but that kind of thing has a way of coming back and biting you in the *****.

With as angry as this country is right now, take that kind of tone with another driver at the lunch counter somewhere and you might find yourself being mopped up by first responders. And then where would we at CAD be without your fountain of knowledge?

So be careful out there. We'd hate to lose you - imagine how boring it would be here without you? :p

I went to a couple of Scout meetings when I was a kid. I never really gotten into it. It's a great program, but I was never really interested in it. A lot of friends of mine were. They had the badges sewn on their vest;I remember seeing the guys wearing them, when they had a meeting after school. I was a Royal Ambassador, but never a Cub or Boy Scout.

Twilight Flyer said:

10-4. I don't think I was getting personal. But, when I respond this weekend (if you don't pull a REV and lock it) I'll try to be on my best behavior.

I have NO idea what you are talking about. I haven't been rubbing ANY noses in the situation about healthcare.... and THIS thread had nothing to do with it!

As for the "latte," you just continue to show how little you know about me, because you are convinced of your prejudices against me. I've never HAD a "latte" in my life... and wouldn't waste the money!

You mean like YOUR predictions of how Palin would wipe the floor with Obama? And McCain/Palin would be our next "rulers?"

I STILL don't know what "tone" you are referring to, but it doesn't matter. I'm on a dedicated route now and NEVER get to sit at T/S counters and argue with real truckers! I only have CAD. :lol2:

GMAN said:

Boy, you SURE did! I've been avoiding answering THIS "manifesto" as well, but I guess I have no other challenges at the moment. I'm home sick today, so I'm bored. ;) I WILL say, GMAN, that I enjoy our debates immensely. I know that I can easily get out of hand, but YOU so rarely do! You must have the patience of Job.... if somewhat lacking in the wisdom of Solomon. ;):D

Although I meant, and usually DO, more than just what appears on the surface.... you are probably right that I was basing that on the Patriot Act. Interesting that because we BOTH adhere so strictly to the constitution in our "own" ways, that we would both object to Dubya's actions. But, more to the point, I was saying that you HAD the right to say such inflammatory things, but that it was neither wise, respectful, nor any more relevant than when you originally said it. You asked the question.... I answered it.

I don't SEE this. What have they done to silence the opposition? I know that "I" would not have stood for ARMED people at a demonstration! I don't care if they had a permit or not! That is bad security.... and IMHO.... a HUGE deference on Obama's part to Constitutional rights! The Tea Party AND FoxNews operate with full impunity... and are even covered by what you call the "lamestream media."

As for the Conservative talk shows and the fairness doctrine? I am not really FOR using that ancient legislation to "level the playing field." There are reasons that conservative talk shows have high ratings and AirAmerica went broke.... but, it has little to do with being CORRECT. There is a question on the floor (by rrobert, I believe,) about this.... and I will give my opinion on it in time. It won't be taken well by most here on the board no matter HOW much I try to ameliorate the facts. But, TO ME... the question is not whether they have the right to their air time, or whether there should be equal time allotted for liberal talk, but whether ANYONE should be allowed to spew hateful speech and MISINFORMATION about the other party and their policies.

How can we ever expect to get along in this country, and find the "centrist" way (which HAS to be the case) if we allow people to LIE about what the other party says or does.... and stir up revolutionary feelings by playing on their basic beliefs and the fact that they aren't really checking this information for themselves??? :eek1:

And how is that different from what Dubya did to win popular consent for his war in Iraq? He not only co-opted the media... he coerced the head of the CIA! And WHO really profited most from his war of aggression (I believe that's what we called Hitler's war)????? Big Business.... Military Industrial Complex. GEE..... does that ring of Fascisim to you? Oh that's right.... you DIDN'T mention Mussolini, did you? I'll tell you ONE of the biggest differences between Obama and all the DICTATORS you love to mention..... Obama is trying to keep us OUT OF WARS.... and PROTECT us from a government ruled by BIG BUSINESS.

BOTH of those statements cut BOTH ways. But, I don't disagree that we need a FREE press (as long as it is responsible) to give the public BOTH sides of the story.

How many people do you talk to each day that are not either your conservative friends OR truck drivers that are, by nature, conservative?

I can't argue with ALL of this... but, I do with SOME. The particulars of Lobbyist legislation, limited but progressive transparency on website of legislation and information, and an ATTEMPT to reach across the aisle are there but are very hard to itemize and make any great point of. Let's just say that he was overly optimistic about his ability to get things done without a complete STONEWALL from the Party of "NO!" :lol2: I'm DISAPPOINTED.... but, I don't feel LIED to.

So did Bush!

Required because of the mess left to him by BUSH!

Not really true when you parse out the "bailout bill" that was passed under BUSH!

I'd be less than frank if I didn't admit that I am worried about this. But, it is really hard to tell what is truth when BOTH sides are distorting the facts and the "so called" neutral CBO is just "guessing." BUT.... you HAVE to look at the RADICAL precipice our economy was at when he took office! This was NOT just your Daddy's cyclical "recession!" I don't blame Bush entirely for the mess. It was like a Tsunami that few people saw coming.... especially while they were busy bombing "brown people" (as Carlin used to say) in foreign countries! :lol2:

It's not really a question of whether or not it is fair... but, whether or not they GAINED those riches in a FAIR manner. He is not trying to take from the rich (or as YOU believe... the MIDDLE CLASS...) to give to the POOREST.... (the ones "you guys" think are worthless scum who won't work at the NONEXISTENT jobs).... it is a matter of returning our economic system and our Free Market system to a more fairly balanced system where the MIDDLE CLASS, who BUYS most of the goods in this country, still HAVE a job and an income that they can USE to buy those goods without having to DROP their insurance coverage!

Since it is very difficult to force businesses to create jobs, it falls on relieving families of medical care costs that are bankrupting them so that they can continue to pay for groceries, cars, travel, homes, and Happy Meals!

You know Gman.... I can actually SEE your point here. And if I thought that YOU thought that YOU were one of those "rich Jewish business owners" .... I could understand your fear. But, you aren't.... HE isn't.... and I can't! It will take me some time.... but, I'm sure I can find OTHER instances in World History that APPEAR as coincidental as this... but, turned out for the betterment of that civilization and mankind in general. Off the top of my head.... and I could be wrong without checking.... but, Alexander the Great comes to mind!

And I find it interesting that you continue to repeat this, WITHOUT being able to substantiate it with a link, when it has been discussed thoroughly on all media outlets INCLUDING Foxnews.... and, it has been attributed ONLY to a statement by Ms. Jarret (one of his advisors) who clearly chose bad verbiage.... and has NEVER been attributed to Obama himself! But, hell.... FACTS be DAMNED! You're going to keep repeating it as long as it gives you a "woodie!" :hellno::lol2:

Well... I've heard those numbers, too! Of course.... ONLY on FoxNews! So, I did some googling and research on polls, polling, how they ask their questions, and all that stuff! I spent HOURS on it recently. I've got about 10 links that I would like to give you (and I might when I have time,) but.... I couldn't find that number ANY FRIGGIN WHERE!!!! Not even on the FOXNews polls!!! So.... I ask you.... WHY are so many "talking heads" on FoxNews quoting that figure when it can't even be found ANYWHERE using GOOGLE??? :eek1::hellno:

Oh yeah.... I know.... it's because they KNOW that they can get away with saying it, cuz people like you will believe them and it will STICK!!! :hellno:

We MUST be living on different planets... cuz, I remember a BAILOUT of AIG, but not a "takeover." I remember a "bailout" of ONE car company (which we own some stock in) and a selloff of the other. [Do you remember the bailout of Chrysler back in some Republican day?]

And MOST of the money we loaned to the banking industry has been PAID BACK WITH INTEREST!!! Where are your friggin EARS when these FACTS are being told every day on both mainstream media AND even on the fringe network Foxnews??? You've drank so much of the Koolaid, that it's hard to even discuss this with you! Obama has not "taken over" ANY industry in this country!!! And he has NO PLANS to take over the healthcare industry! He's NOT going to pull the plug on Grandma... and he's NOT going to "mix races" with your daughters! Sheesh! :hellno:

Man... I just don't have the energy to fight all of this! The unemmployment "slide" started under Bush. The LARGEST numbers of job losses were in the last months of Bush's admininstration and the first few months of the next year.... even BEFORE Obama was elected! The numbers have been trending DOWN ever since! Losing a few tens of thousands of jobs in a month is MUCH better than losing the 6-7 HUNDRED thousands of jobs we were losing as the Bush "reign" transitioned into the Obama "clean up" mission!

In case you haven't noticed (and someone on another thread asked where we are today vs. a year ago....) we were losing about 600,000 jobs a month when Bush left office. That number is now in the TENS of thousands. The stock market was at a low of about 7 thousand.. when Obama took office (or shortly after as things shook out) and NOW is back up to highs that are just under the "ballooned" historical highs that got us where we are! A report that came out just a day or two ago, showed that the GDP rose by something like 5 or 6 % in the last quarter of 2009..... the LARGEST improvement in six years!!! Just WHAT the F*CK do you guys WANT as an indicator of the fact that we are climbing out of this really BAD recession??? :eek2::eek2::hellno::moon::moon::moon:

I don't see ANY proof that he has "attacked" organized religion. He has REVERSED some things that the Moral Majority (where ARE they now?) had snuck INTO our government under that idiot BUSH. ONE point is this.... HITLER has been DEAD for years!!! And the U.S. has done just FINE until the last 8 years when the religious fanatics tried to hijack the constitution and the government! NIXON .... not even REAGAN..... tried to impose as much "religion" into our federal government as was done under bush..... and OBAMA has done less to remove it than Clinton did!

Yeah, I remember that, and I will do the research necessary to prove you wrong! Unless you are willing to ACCEPT defeat.... do your OWN googling and find me some proof to back up your position.

Damn I am getting tired of arguing with a brick!

Although I am not sure I agree that it is the BIGGEST cost to healthcare... I agree that it is a major contributor and needs to be addressed. I WISH he had done more in this regard, but there IS a provision in the bill to start controlling this. Not the best of things.... but, progress!

First of all.... I HOPE you had good insurance! MILLIONS don't!! But, these UNECESSARY and multiple tests are part of what Obama wants to do away with.... without causing more risk to doctors! I agree that we need tort reform to go along with this reform.... and I admit I am displeased that it has not been given higher regard.

Yes there is. Just not as much as we'd like.... and your GOP friends wouldn't mention it.

Okay GMAN.... I'm NOT wanting to get personal here. I don't think you or your wife are old enough to be on Medicare.... and certainly not on Medicaid. So.... this is your PERSONAL insurance policy. Since you are an o/o.... this is not even a company (partially) paid policy. Right?

So.... since nothing has changed yet under Obamacare.... this "redundancy" is part of the way things have been for a long time. Or at least, the changes have been mandated by your PRIVATE insurance company.... raising THEIR costs AND yours! THIS is what is happening all over the country and in part is leading to middle class Americans either dropping their insurance or going broke!

HOW can you DEFEND this "status quo?" :eek2:

I feel your pain, but I disagree. I believe these things are EXACTLY what will be addressed under Obamacare.

And THIS is where you lose ALL relevancy and consideration from me. I don't waste time on "conspiracy theorists."

I SEE this point, and I am aware of the "malpractice lawyer" lobbyists. I just don't see why you single out THEM and not the lobbyists for the Insurance Companies that have bought and paid for the votes against reform by the "Party of NO!"

And to make matters worse.... the conservative leaning SCOTUS has ruled (against ALL PRECEDENT) that the big insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, and all their PACS can spend ALL THE MONEY they want to influence congressional elections in the near future! :hellno:

I'm afraid you really missed on that one. Do a little research for yourself. But, you'll have to really do some looking because it's not easy to find. Take a look at the MAJOR contributors to his campaign. Why do you suppose the health insurance is MANDATORY? Look at his major contributors, and then look at their occupation and mission in life.

Now you know why the financial institutions got bailouts, and the taxpayer that needs it still has not gotten one. Pull your head out of the sand, will you? Do a little research beyond your favorite news media.

"FAILURE SHALL NOT BE REWARDED". AIG execs contributed to his campaign, then nothing was said when they got their "REWARD FOR FAILURE". They weren't rewarded for failure. They were rewarded for contributing to a successful campaign. And, that reward was many times over. Want to see just how far the undercurrent runs behind the scenes? Do your own research on the subject. Unless you are so hypnotized that it won't make any difference to you. What better way to make sure the insurance industry is a complete success? Mandatory insurance, that's how. Not ruled by big business?

Windwalker said:

"Fear not, for I am WITH THEE always." :smokin:

.....and:

"Success Is Its Own Reward."



:smokin:

I doubt it. There is a big difference between us. It is:

I've known where you stand, and now you know where I stand. And, I hardly think you're standing with me.

Windwalker said:

Well, that wasn't exactly what I meant by my cryptic response... but... do you really? Granted I don't claim to be a Conservative, but things aren't always as black and white as they seem.

Well, I hate to admit it sort of.... but, I guess I'm a fence sitter then. :lol:

A "centrist" doesn't have such a strong opinion about guns themselves. I like them... not IN LOVE with them. Don't believe in a total ban on them, but see the need to control some of the more deadly varieties, OR the people who can own them.

Changing this to something I can relate to.... smoking. I'm a smoker. But, if I DIDN'T smoke, I would still support the rights of those who DO to light up in public, at least SOME areas of restaurants, CERTAINLY in bars! NOT on a crowded subway train, but YES on the open air boarding platform.

I personally find homosexuality repugnant. I would PREFER that "they" tone it down and not be so flagrant about it in public. But, as a Constitutionalist, who believes in "equal protection under the law," I don't like the fact that our laws provide TAX and other Benefits for those who live in a Biblical "union" and deny such to those who are lifelong "roommates." Of course, for that matter, I don't like the fact that I lose out on some of those bennies by being UNMARRIED.

I believe in being as "self reliant" as possible. I am not happy about the welfare system or situation in our country. I supported Clinton's "Welfare to Work" program but I DON'T support the Conservative view of "cut them off and let them die!"

I don't agree with the fairness doctrine. I don't believe in censorship based on political view. I like (and listen to) many of the personalities on FoxNews. But, I don't like the overall bias and agenda of that network, and the flat out lies that they spread. I can't listen to Conservative talk radio, but I can't stand more than a few minutes of Liberal talk, either.

Well, I don't go to church. But, I don't campain to have any reference to God or religion squelched. I don't have a problem with the 10 Commandments being displayed in public places, (or Christmas displays, etc.) but I don't want children TAUGHT (in public schools) that there is a God and we should OBEY his laws. I'd PREFER that schools teach kids about ALL religions and the effects and impacts they've had on history. Religious "teaching" or indoctrination should be done at home or IN THE CHURCH! I support a voucher program to allow taxpayers to send their kids to parochial schools if they prefer.

A Centrist just wants the industry to play fair so that insurance and healthcare are affordable to all. Since they WON'T, he wants someone to DO something about it! He realizes that he is already paying for those who use the emergency room as a primary care provider, and wants a better system.

A Centrist will discuss it, wonder if there is a "flip side" version of it for liberals, and marvel at the way Conservatives see everything so black and white.

They problem with the Boy Scouts and the Boy's Choir? Girls, they need girls, its that simple.
I mean who needs to sword fight when you could have a couple of boxes girl scout cookies. I know this is a serious topic, so I don't mean to make light of it. I would personally like to see all phedophiles drown, but until that becomes a legal way of dealing with them. I say we fix the institutions that gave them the opportunities to harm children.

I can see it now. She goes out on a date with a really nice guy and they start talking about their younger days... "I was a boy scout," she says... His eyebrows climb up into his hairline...:roll::roll3:

His first thought... "When was the surgery done???":hellno:

First of all she would most like say I was a girl scout or just plain scout.

Noway, he would want to see her merit badges and then see about getting some tagalongs.:thumbsup:

And, if he goes camping, and she decides to go along, she'd be a bit more realistic than DEVILED EGGS on a CRYSTAL PLATTER.

Now, don't get me wrong. I can eat deviled eggs all day long, every day and never get tired of them. But, they don't survive well in an ice chest, and dumping the water does not get rid of all the mess. And, that doesn't even get into the diving in the lake to retrieve the crystal platter that slipped out of her hands when she was rinsing it off.

And, when the scouts went on a camping trip, (I was a boy once) the leaders would really have to be on their toes.

Of course, this is all assuming that the leaders are of a mind to work for the kids benefit, rather than their own agenda. Otherwise girls, as well as boys, would be put at risk. How many pedophiles are hetro, rather than homo or bi, where the boys are safe, but girls would be put at risk?

Naw, it was just the overall tone of the thread in general. It was getting a little too uncivil. You know I don’t like to lock threads if it can be avoided. Hell, I don't even like to drop the ban-hammer on people. You're living proof of that, latte-boy. Bwa ha ha ha ha ha!! :D

You know, you keep saying that and I keep telling you, I don’t believe I ever said that. I know for a fact that I have said many times and on several boards and in many discussions that Palin would energize the base and she did. She would prevent McCain from getting completely destroyed in the election. She did. It was closer than it would have been without her. I know I also said that it was a shrewd move on McCains part and I still believe that. Problem is, it was too little, too late and while she galvanized the base, it drove away too many of the independents. Hindsite is 20/20. But again, I don’t believe I ever said that McCain would win because of her. Find the thread(s) and link my quote(s) and I’ll own it.