You may want to read here:

FindLaw: U.S. Constitution: Sixteenth Amendment: Annotations pg. 1 of 2

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/constitution/pdf/con027.pdf

There is a great deal of debate on the issue....but it seems that no-one has been able to beat the IRS....at least on the necessity of paying taxes...

Slimland said:

As will I.

Yet you SAID.... NOW.... that we have in office....

With the current political atmosphere and discussion in the media today, it is easy to see how I "assumed" you were making the distinction between Obama and the last 8 years of Bush.

I agree with this in principle, yet maintain that we have LESS to fear from Obama than from the policies that Bush pushed through.

Does that include an abortion? Or a gay marriage? How about a private phone call without being wiretapped?

Not exactly. The 2nd Ammendment protects your right to own a gun. It does not say you can own a machine gun, a howitzer or other "arms." There has to be limits. "We" are tired of hearing that anyone who believes in solving the problems of gun related violence in this country are somehow POWER HUNGRY. The government is NOT AFRAID of the NRA membership, and a few guns. They are elected to "govern" and they are trying to "protect" civilization against lethal crimes.

We "get it." We understand your frustration with criminals getting guns. We just don't share your hysteria about the government taking away YOUR guns while trying to control the availability TO CRIMINALS of the most lethal types of weapons.

Again, I agree in principle. What is irritating me lately... and causing me to rant and at times hurt my friends like you.... is the way so MANY ignore the intrusions on our freedoms by the Bush administration and lay it all at the feet of Obama... and start throwing around words like "Socialist."

Yet YOU posted a link to his speech and the resolution. You can't blame me for "assuming" you supported his position. I beleive you even said something about him "not going far enough."

Someday, we will have a further discussion on what the actual role of the Federal government was "intended" or should be. But, let's face reality. There is NO WAY that the U.S. could function if each state was "an island unto itself." That's just a fact.... IMHO.

And I thought by now that YOU knew when I was just "raging against the machine" and using the "collective" YOU to voice my opposition to the crap that keeps coming from the twisted minds of the Limbaughs, Becks and Coulters of the Right Wing.

And I hope they still ARE. I apologize if I colored outside the lines. I don't have the comedy forum of Bill Maher with which to ridicule the Right Wing. I'm not even wired that way. I'm very passionate about MY beliefs, and I have been known to swing a Broadsword with the reckless abandon and "general" aim of my "role model," a Southern Baptist preacher. :eek2:

He is well known for stepping on more than a few toes, and I guess I have learned no better. Just as he does not judge the sinner, but hates the sin...I rail against the "content" that some of you cut and paste here, but don't MEAN to slay the messenger.

I have no such dream. Nor do I have all the answers. But, I DO know that TOTAL freedom is anarchy.

You know
 

you lost my respect when you started talking about secession.

Dont like my country boy? GET THE HELL OUT! NOW you unamerican piece of garbage. You traitors make me sick at my stomach.

Wow! What a great post. It adds so much to the debate and exchange of ideas. :roll:

As of this writing, 37 states have either passed or in the works of passing resolutions reaffirming their rights under the 10 amendment to the constitution.

I think this is our ( the states ) little warning shot "across the bow" ( so to speak )..... that the federal government is starting to cross some lines that we will NOT stand for.

I for one think it will take the STATES UNITED to get the United States back in order.

Sorry CD to come off like I was jumping on you. You usually have great posts with a lot of thought and wisdom in them. I guess everyone has a "nerve" and this thread hit yours. Please add more, as I for one respect some of the things you write about.





Ridge

This post really bothers me! I checked, and it's been a YEAR since you posted last. I no longer remember whether we agreed or not on most subjects, but I (like Ridge) DO remember finding your posts interesting.

But, I gotta tell you.... YOU don't "own" this country! No political group nor ideological mindset does. Even "secessionist" speech is protected here. There were many well respected men who led the Confederacy of Southern States in their ill-fated, but genuinely committed, attempt at self rule.

They were probably MORE "American" than you or I. Just what IS an "American" anyway? Are those BORN here more American than those who legally immigrated to this country and BUILT it? And aren't we ALL decendents of someone NOT born here (unless we are Native Americans?)

Before you go throwing around words like "traitor," perhaps you should look up the definition. In short.... it is one who would sell out his country to the enemy. Even the Confederates were in it to PRESERVE the country and birthright they believed in!

Although I don't agree with those who throw the word around lightly today, I respect them. Right or wrong, they feel "imposed upon" by the federal government. Our Declaration of Independence all but BEGS them to be vigilant against such an act.

Like me (and perhaps you) they are decendents of men who gave their lives to win our freedom from the tyranny of England. They don't want those sacrfices to be in vain.

Our country was founded on the principle of self rule. Many Americans of the time even objected to the constitution and its guarantees for all Americans. Their decendents were even LESS amused by the Bill of Rights for ALL inhabitants of our country. But that was the majority decision at the time, and still is.

There is, indeed, alot of "garbage" in our country today... but it is not the Texans, or the Southerners. Nor is it the Blue State intelligencia. It is the Lords and Barons who will sell us all for another dollar!

I am sorry that I didn't see this earlier, Skywalker. Thanks for the reference. Whether the 16th amendment was legally ratified or not it has basically become a de facto law. Precedent has been set in the courts so it has essentially become the law of the land. If we are to have a government we need to have a means to support it. That is the reason we must have some taxes. I have never thought that I or anyone should not pay taxes. The problem I have is the amount and type of taxes that we pay. We definitely need to change the way we fund our government. Our government is bloated and out of control. We need a much smaller and responsive government. I don't mean that we need to over throw our government but we do need to make some changes back to the way this country was originally set up. It worked and without an income tax. Prior to the income tax our government was primarily supported by property tax and excise tax. The bigger the government becomes the more taxes will be needed to support it.

Sorry ridge runner
 

I do have a hot head and a big mouth. But you know i took the oath. And these are the same type of guys who call people like me (democrats) unpatriotic???

These folks want to change the government? Get active. Get informed. Donate. Volunteer. I encourage that from ALL points on the spectrum. But talk about overthrowing the government? Abandoning the country pretty much everyone in my family fought for? You've crossed the line from pissed off citizen to traitor. And that just makes me insane.

You know I have no Problem with anyone speaking there mind, Never have. But you call me a traitor! Did you not read the whole thread before you made that ASSumption ?

I do not wish to change the government, I wish to Keep it like it was supposed to be, Keep it on the foundations of Freedome written within the Laws that bound it in the beginning. Not some whoopla of what the left and right wing thinks it says or said.. When we as a nation step away from that "which in my opinion have" then that is the real traitorizm.. if that is a word..

So why don't you actualy open your mind at what someone says and look at what they are trying to get across before you get pissed off..

That is the problem with people now days, and I have even done the same.. So wrapped up in there own, not being able to have an open mind for a decent discussion without spewing some kinda crap on what they think another thinks.. Sounds more like a woman, who is caught up in her feelings telling a man what he is thinking. Even though he says " No honey this is what I was thinking" Still she says " No its not"

No open mind, then No discussion, that is one reason I have not visited this board in a while, besides the obvious and know what is going on in my personal life that I have shared on this board..

Even Hobo has gotten bitter, to the point of not being able to hold a conversation without that personal attack!

I expected much more from my friends on here, but hey I understand, cause I know beyound a shadow of a doubt that they also have been going threw there own hell. Judgment always starts in the house, it is the cleaning process of God, and even I myself cannot seem to submit to it..

So peace and injoy what we have left for the limited time we have it!

Slimland

Slim said:

I am not bitter. I don't see where I attacked you personally. As I explained, I rail against the propaganda that "some" of you propogate. You and I agree that many of our freedoms are being stolen. We just differ on who is the thief.

I do not disagree that government is getting too big. I just get tired of hearing it ALL blamed on Democrats. And especially when the "blame" is supported by the LIES of the Republicans and their mouthpiece FOXNews.

I have never denigrated your "faith." I just feel that it has NO PLACE in the "equal" application of law and government in this country. We are fighting the Taliban IN PART because of their religious fundamentalism and its oppressive application on the FREE people of Afghanistan.... yet, we "tolerate" similar intrusions on our OWN freedoms by those who believe our laws should be "guided" by the CHRISTIAN Bible. The VERY example of persecution that we fled England to avoid!

It is said that "those who don't LEARN from history are destined to repeat it." I can't help but feel that the ever-increasing influence of the Moral Majority, and the right wing in general, is reminiscent of the absolute control that the Church of England had over its "subjects."

YOU (or some here) fear that America is heading towards the SOCIALISM that has NEVER had a hold in this country, and NO PART of our history. I fear that we are REVERTING to the religious dogmatism and governance of the country we fought a revolution to escape.

If you have it handy.... please read the Preamble to the Constitution with a view to the intended COMPARISON to the country we fled:

We the PEOPLE.... (as opposed to the aristocracy)

A more perfect UNION....(as opposed to class differences)

Establish justice.... and promote the general welfare....(as opposed to the privilege and amnesty afforded the "Lords and Barons)

The blessings of LIBERTY to ourselves and our posterity....(the same root as LIBERAL.... but, in practice had much more to do with RELIGIOUS liberty.)

I don't believe our forefathers were declaring ANARCHY! They understood that we would need laws and government.... and yes, even taxes! In fact.... this is the preamble to the Constitution that ESTABLISHED a new form of GOVERNMENT and "provided" for taxation.

The "spirit" of our Revolution and our Constitution was to free ourselves from both religious control AND the discrimination of class warfare that was the daily LIFE in England at the time.

The constitution goes on to declare that NO STATE can proffer "Nobility" on any citizen. This is a FURTHER guard against the feudal system we had fled.

I'm not saying that SOME won't have, or MAKE, more money than others. I don't want a "communistic" society where we all dress in pants suits! I'm saying that we came here to give ALL Americans a shot at prosperity, but the Feudal system, and the aristocracy followed us.... and took over LONG ago!

I think we BOTH want freedom and liberty, Slim. We just seem to have a difference of opinion as to WHO the devil is!

P.S..... JESUS WAS A LIBERAL! ;)

That doesn't say much for liberals, considering Jesus supported slavery.

I understand your point, Rev. But, I disagree that he SUPPORTED it. I WOULD say "cite the reg," but I KNOW the scripture you refer to.

There are many things in the Bible....written NOT by God OR Jesus.... that I question at times. In a way, one might say it was written by politicians!

But, that doesn't take away from the fact that Jesus taught "fairness" for all people. As he commanded the slave to obey his master.... he ALSO commanded the master to not ABUSE his slave!

At this time.... I believe, Jesus was just learning the philosophy that his FATHER wanted him to teach. But, he WAS a "man" after all. Raised in the society that surrounded him.... and somewhat constrained by what the "locals" could understand or believe.

According to the scripture, Jesus (after his resurrection) took the form of the disadvantaged at least three times to ask for food, shelter, drink and clothes.... and was turned away by some and "cared for" by others.

It is told that, at the judgement, those who did "this for the least of my bretheren" will be admitted to heaven, and those who didn't see or CARE for the needy will NOT.

The reason that it will be "harder for a rich man to enter into heaven than for a camel to pass thru the eye of a needle" is EXACTLY the "conservative" ideology that causes many to say.... "I've got MINE... why can't YOU do the same?"

But, it is important to note that it is not MONEY that is the root of all evil... but the LOVE of money. Just as it is not impossible for a rich man to enter heaven. MANY rich men have entered heaven because of the way they SHARED their wealth with the less advantaged.

Kennedy famously quoted, but didn't coin, the phrase.... to those whom much is given, much is required.

This is born out by the parable of the 10 "talents" as well as other teachings in the Bible.

Yes, Rev... notwithstanding his "acceptance" of the mores of his time, and considering neither of us were there to argue with him.... Jesus WAS a Liberal (with a minor leaning towards conservatism.)

Jesus said, "suffer the children to come unto me." [SCHIP]

Jesus healed the sick, though they had no money to pay for it. [Medicaid]

Jesus ran the "money changers" out of the temple. [regulation]

Jesus fed the masses from the small offerings of the individual. [?]

It was GOD of Abraham (and the OLD TESTAMENT) that waged WAR on those who didn't believe the way his "chosen" did! ;)

But, what could he do? He had a son who turned out to be a friggin LIBERAL! :lol2:

And he had already set up the Slave Trade long before the birth of Jesus!

Kinda makes you wonder why he turned his back on him during his "gig" on the cross, eh? ;)

I love when you post a novel in response to a one sentence post, because they are so easy to negate. Thank you.:thumbsup:

I agree with your sentiments....:smokin:

I would love to see the country divided into two nations. I think it would work like this;

Dear Red States:

We're ticked off at the way you've treated California and we've decided we're leaving.

We intend to form our own country and we're taking the other Blue States with us.

In case you aren't aware that includes Hawaii, Oregon, Washington, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Illinois and all the Northeast.

We believe this split will be beneficial to the nation and especially to the people of the new country of New California.

To sum up briefly:

You get Texas, Oklahoma and all the slave states.

We get stem cell research and the best beaches.

We get Elliot Spitzer. You get Ken Lay.

We get the Statue of Liberty. You get OpryLand.

We get Intel and Microsoft. You get WorldCom.

We get Harvard. You get Ole' Miss.

We get 85 percent of America's venture capital and entrepreneurs. You get Alabama.

We get two-thirds of the tax revenue. You get to make the red states pay their fair share.

Since our aggregate divorce rate is 22 percent lower than the Christian Coalition's we get a bunch of happy families. You get a bunch of single moms.

Please be aware that Nuevo California will be pro choice and anti war and we're going to want all our citizens back from Iraq at once. If you need people to fight ask your evangelicals. They have kids they're apparently willing to send to their deaths for no purpose and they don't care if you don't show pictures of their children's caskets coming home.

We wish you success in Iraq and hope that the WMDs turn up but we're not willing to spend our resources in Bush's Quagmire.

With the Blue States in hand we will have firm control of 80% of the country's fresh water, more than 90% of the pineapple and lettuce, 92% of the nation's fresh fruit, 95% of America's quality wines (you can serve French wines at state dinners) 90% of all cheese, 90 percent of the high tech industry, most! of the US low sulfur coal, all
living redwoods, sequoias and condors, all the Ivy and Seven Sister schools plus Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Cal Tech and MIT.

With the Red States you will have to cope with 88% of all obese Americans and their projected health care costs, 92% of all US mosquitoes, nearly 100% of the tornadoes, 90% of the hurricanes, 99% of all Southern Baptists, virtually 100% of all televangelists, Rush Limbaugh, Bob Jones University, Clemson and the University of Georgia.

We get Hollywood and Yosemite, thank you.

38% of those in the Red states believe Jonah was actually swallowed by a whale, 62% believe life is sacred unless we're discussing the death penalty or gun laws, 44% say that evolution is only a theory, 53% that Saddam was involved in 9/11 and 61% of you crazy bastards believe you are people with higher morals then we lefties.

We're taking the good pot too. You can have that dirt weed they grow in Mexico

Veddy, veddy interestink!! While I am very very conservative, (I think self proclaimed dittoheads and neocons are wusses, chickenhawks and shills who should be required to wear pink tutu's 24/7) I find that your post conveys many of my own thoughts. :smokin:

The so called "right" isn't and it has avariciously embraced a dichotomy of ambiguity tantamount to pure oxymoron-ish insanity.

I consider myself to be very liberal & I feel exactly the same way about the so called "left".

I live in what is supposed to be one of the most liberal areas in the country. Not only do I find that I have almost nothing in common with these people, most of them annoy the h@ll out of me.

What's a fellow to do?

I totally apologize to everybody. I never meant to kill an entertaining thread!

The liberal c*******ers have already done that.

I'm sorry man, I been tryin to quit.

Well, I guess there could be SOME good things about this part of the country I happen to live in.
But, at the same time, we could banish all the "cocktail party" liberals and the "guns are bad for everybody" crowd to a one month vacation in some war-torn country below the border for a little, re-education.
Most of these people make alot of noise, but they've been too busy hiding behind writing textbooks and making high-money deals in their uptown offices.

And don't get started on the eco-freaks, the ones that show up to anti-drilling protests in their mommys Tahoe.

Don't think we haven't noticed.

I don't think you can detect a thing as long as I keep my tinfoil hat on.

I almost gave it away yesterday to the driver at the 49'er who was loudly insisting that swine flu was an Obama plot AND the vaccine is too. If you take the vaccine it will kill you too and either way the socialists just want to get rid of a bunch of us because we are over populated, so they developed the flu and the vaccine to do the task.

I thought about asking him what his CAD handle was, but I had to get to Lodi for my appt.

These liberals want to make rules for the rest of us while exempting themselves. They criticize the rich because of all the money they make while they drive to their cocktail party in their chauffeur driven limousine.

You can't.... and never HAVE... negated anything I have posted. Apparently, you can't even IGNORE my posts. In fact.... you can't even offer a debate. YOU were the one that made the statement that I chose to disagree with. but YOU can't defend your statement. You SELDOM can. :roll:

YOU said that Jesus "supported" slavery. Let's hear your proof of this. As I said, I KNOW the scripture. Now, let me hear how you rationalize it with the "parable" of the God of Moses leading his people OUT of bondage in Egypt!

Then you've seen the proof.

Yet another contradiction of the myths of the Bible. There. Rationalized.