Have you seen Michael Moore's Sicko?
 

I just watched it last night and found it pretty interesting. I'm not a Michael Moore fan nor do I agree with his political views but this documentary sure gets your attention to whats going on in the world.

Have you seen it and what did you think of it?

One of many problems about the movie "Sicko" was that even the Cubans have said Michael Moore is lying about their healthcare system,

Dont get me wrong, I enjoy watching Moores propaganda films. I think he is very good at what he does and I find his films pretty funny.However, that doesnt mean I believe anything in his movies one bit. He has been busted in WAY TOO MANY lies.
I think the most revealing thing about Michael Moore is when CNN asked him, "Where does he go for healthcare?" He admitted that he stays in the US and has great healthcare. Really when you think about it, Moore has millions and millions of dollars. He can afford to go anywhere in the world for great healthcare. He chooses the BEST....he stays right here.
Another thing that is always seem to be left out by the left and people like Moore. They seem to like to quote the World Health Organizations (communists and socialists) study that found the USA 47th or something in healthcare. However, what they always seem to leave out of the debates and their propaganda is that the same WHO study found the USA #1 in patient satisfaction. Think about that. Even though the media drills into us everyday that our healthcare system is broken, most in this country are still very happy with their healthcare. Personally, I find that the people who are griping the most about not having health insurance are usually the people too lazy to EARN it.
Healthcare is NOT a right, its a service. Services are EARNED and are a CHOICE. Really when It comes down to it, I dont care that Michael Moore or any other multi-millionaire has a little better healthcare than me. He earned it. On the same side of the coin, I ask...why would some unemployed lazy person care that I have better healthcare than them? I EARNED IT.
We dont have a health insurance crisis in this country, we have a lazy people who dont want to earn crisis.
Ok off my soapbox.....that should get things going a bit

DID YOU KNOW...

Canada spends only $3,165 per capita on health care, compared to over $7,000 per capita in the United States.
Source: Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services

The life expectancy in Canada is three years longer than in the United States.
Source: World Health Organization

The infant mortality rate in Canada is 5.0 per thousand, compared with 7.0 per thousand in the United States.
Source: World Health Organization

24 percent of Americans did not seek medical care because of cost, compared to 5 percent in Canada.
Source: 'Inequities In Health Care: A Five-Country Survey,' Health Affairs.

There are nearly 50 million Americans without health insurance, compared with none in Canada.
Source: Centers for Disease Control

The median waiting time in Canada is only three weeks for diagnostic tests and only four weeks for specialist visits and non-emergency surgery.
Source: Statistics Canada

70 to 80 percent of Canadians feel their wait times are acceptable.
Source: Statistics Canada

A paper published in the International Journal of Health Services shows that the United States wastes nearly $400 billion a year in administrative costs - and by switching to a Canadian-style single-payer system, we could save $286 billion annually.

Canada's health care system, much more so than the others we've looked at, is a pure single-payer effort. It's really run by the government, private insurance is barred from interfering in any significant way, and so on. And despite the vaunted inefficiencies of government, they manage to cover their entire population with administration costs that're 300% less than ours per capita. Considering that 42 million of our folks aren't even in the system, the difference is even greater than that. Much of it comes from the simplicity of having the government pick up the tab rather than forcing doctors to haggle with insurers.

Why do HMO's contribute BILLIONS to Presidential campains ? Thats just weird to me.... Hillary's campain got a Million alone ???

I think the citizens of the U.S. should get more bang for your buck.

Note: Canada's system is ranked at 30th in the world....

Heeeere we go again... :roll:

I dont care, Im happy with my healthcare and see no need to change it. Why is it that the wealthy in Canada seem to come here for BETTER healthcare, but americans never go there?

We live in a free country where people are free to be fat, lazy and free to live their life as unhealthy as they want. I would like to see the statistics for life expectency of people in this country who eat well, are in shape, dont smoke, use drugs or drink. Because that is the statistic that would matter to me.

Again, I would like to see that statistic broken up and catagorized. What is the infant mortality rate of babies born to parents in this country who actually care about their kids enough to provide health insurance compared to the parents who have many kids they CANT afford. Because that is the statistic that would matter to me.

Good reason to work hard and EARN insurance.


Accourding to the Census, 1/3 of the people in this country who dont have health insurance make 50K a year or more. Another 1/3 are immigrants. These TRUTHS right there show that health insurance is a CHOICE. Here we go with FREEDOM again. In a free country people are FREE not to choose health insurance. Many young people today would rather go out to the bar every weekend than choose health insurance. Face it, no matter how cheap you make health insurance, millions will simply choose to be stupid and not purchase it.


The rest is just the same thing over and over. Quite simple: If you think Canada is a better healthcare system, you are welcome to move there. Funny that canadians who move here from there seem to tell a different story. In fact the woman recruiter who sits beside me is from Canada and she laughs at statistics like these. She is happy to live in the GREATEST country in the world and she is very happy with our SUPERIOR healthcare system.

Why is it that the wealthy in Canada seem to come here for BETTER healthcare, but americans never go there?

Rich people think they are more important...

The only verified cases are a) folks in the US on vacation or b) folks who don't want to wait for an elective procedure and can pay to do it out of pocket. Think about that for a second -- the primary criticism of the Canadian system is the "wait times/they come here" combo, but what's really going on is a prioritization of procedures and a few rich folks deciding not stand in line. So in Canada, it's the rich who can't get the care they want, but everybody can get the care they need. Here, the rich can get all the care they want, and many of our poor and lower-middle class can't simply wait in line for elective procedures -- they simply can't get them. It's all about priorities.

This just in......

Awww....this is nice of Hillary on the same subject.
Hillaries BRILLIANT healthcare plan for the uninsured is to make a law FORCING them to buy insurance. In fact just today she said she wants to make it where you cant even get a job unless you PROVIDE PROOF THAT YOU HAVE PURCHASED HEALTH INSURANCE YOURSELF. And if by chance, you lose your job and cant afford it anymore, the law states no employer can hire you unless you find the money to buy health insurance first. PURE GENIUS!!!
Think about this really hard. Hillarycare is about changing our healthcare system to a "UNIVERSAL PROGRAM" that the Government deems fit and then FORCING FREE PEOPLE TO BUY IT BY LAW WHETHER YOU LIKE THE SYSTEM OR NOT.
As a "ULTRA CONSERVATIVE MEMBER OF THE VAST RIGHT WING CONSPIRACY", I cant think of anything more promising as Hillary touting her "Brilliant Plan". We need a 24 hour a day Hillary news channel that constantly reports her genius ideas!

This is the only thing I will disagree with.

Lazy, poor people do have better insurance than us, the working middle class. They get free insurance with cost to them, compliments of the Government.

If he wants to actually make a decent video..... why doesnt he do one on the welfare and food stamps program


Why is it that everybody I know on food stamps eats 3 good meals a day, while Im lucky to get 2 half-ass meals a day working 60 hours a week


I hate lazy people. :evil:

The kicker is that all of these private health plans will get subsidized and make millions of us under her plan. Hillary is not going put these companies that contribute millions to her campaign out of business.

This is why I detest the Democrats. always trying to tell us what is good for us. I'll make my own desicions, thank you very much.

insurance is nothing but socialism

why dont all of these free enterprisers advocate people paying for medical costs directly?

you cant tell someone to work to pay for your insurance, because of the fact that insurance is nothing more than socialism

it was a sad point where a person's employment got involved with their healthcare, whenever that was

if people paid directly for healthcare, the costs would drop dramatically

but because we allow the insurance companies to handle our healthcare, the costs are astronomical, and all covered by the agreements between the pharmaceutical industry, the medical establishment and the insurance cabal

:roll:

[quote="Sheepdancer"]One notch above Cuba, W.H.O. ranking...

Baaa, What have you been smokin ? Feel free to educate yourself :wink:


By Rob Stein
Washington Post Staff Writer


Americans pay more when they get sick than people in other Western nations and get more confused, error-prone treatment, according to the largest survey to compare U.S. health care with other nations.

The survey of nearly 7,000 sick adults in the United States, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Britain and Germany found Americans were the most likely to pay at least $1,000 in out-of-pocket expenses. More than half went without needed care because of cost and more than one-third endured mistakes and disorganized care when they did get treated.

As a Canadian living in this socialized health care system I have to say that I don't mind having a single payer system but realize that costs are going up and in my province, British Columbia, health care costs are becoming a bigger part of our annual budget. Now with costs going up that leaves less money for us the tax payer because eventually the taxes will go up to compensate for higher costs of health care.

What I would love to see is a two-tier health system that allows more choice. For those people comfortable with the current wait times in this health care system I say let them stay in this system however if people want to opt out and pay for quicker service then they should be allowed to. We shouldn't be restricted to where we want to access our health care.

Although, I have recently got blood tests and have been to the doctor lately and will have to go again later on this week and I love the fact that I just have my BC Medical Card and that's it. No insurance company to deal with just hand the receiptionist my medical card and that's it.

Jeremyh:

Canada spends only $3,165 per capita on health care, compared to over $7,000 per capita in the United States...

ARE YOU CRAZY ? Two tier health system :roll:

If you think it's worth it, to get a 50,000 dollar elective operation now, rather than 3 months from now, at no cost... Go For It ! it's O.K. It just moves other people up in the line, Thanks... Very nobel of you...

The point I'm trying to make is that the system in the United Sates costs more than any system in the world, and ranks 37th just infront of Cuba...

I am a Canadian, and very happy with our healthcare/ Labour codes, I only get involved in these threads to encourage debate, hopefully get people to think outside their borders...

In my opinion, Sheep, and others who attack a fellow American like Mickael Moore calling his movies "propaganda" are just very narrow minded...

The only thing The U.S. leads in Healthcare, is spending, Number 1... Delivering healthcare, number 37, just infront of Cuba...

Don't even get me going on pennies per mile...

What would be soo wrong with paying a driver "per hr"...? a hour worked, a hour payed... Hmmm

I dont give a rats butt what WHO says about our healthcare system. WHO is pretty much a socialist organization. You just have to read their webpage to see that their purpose is to push the socialist agenda. Of course WHO is going to rank anything that goes against their core beliefs lower. HOWEVER, if you insist on living by WHO numbers, why not quote their findings that we are #1 in patient satisfaction.
Again it comes down to this. I HAVE GREAT HEALTHCARE...I EARN IT AND PAY FOR IT. I DONT CARE IF YOU HAVE GREAT HEALTHCARE, YOU ARE FREE TO EARN IT JUST LIKE I DO. AND FURTHERMORE, I DONT FEEL THE NEED TO PAY MORE TAXES JUST SO SOME LAZY PERSON CAN HAVE EQUAL HEALTHCARE AS ME. Call it selfish if you want....However, I would call it caring about my family enough to work hard enough and earn enough to give them the best quality life.

Hillary has proposed simply making health insurance a requirement to work.. like auto insurance is a requirement to drive. These are not the same things even remotely.. but she (since she will be the next president) will get this ramrodded through no matter how unconstitutional is is..

I used to work for the LARGEST company here in the US Wal-Mart. During our orientation they GAVE US THE FORMS TO APPLY FOR MEDICAID THE STATE RUN HEALTH INSURANCE. It did not matter if you were full time or part time like I was if you were a store associate you were going to go on Medicaid to save the company money. Wal-Mart Sheepdancer would rather push HIGHER TAXES onto everyone else than have a decent health care plan. The ones that had the plan said it was WORHTLESS. The deductables were for one person 1500 per year and for a family 6,000 bucks and get this after you met that the out of pocket was 5 thousand more and it did not cover any PREVENTAVE CARE. This is a company that takes in over 311 BILLION in revenue and they REFUSE TO HAVE A DECENT HEALTHCARE PLAN FOR THE VERY PEOPLE THAT ARE RESPONIBLE FOR MAKING IT THE COMPANY THEY ARE. You will say no company has to provide helth benes I know but with THE SIMPLE FACT OF THEIR SIZE THEY COULD GET A BETTER RATE FROM SOMEONE FOR BETTER CARE FOR THE EMPLOYEES. I say bring on Universal healthcare in this country EVERYOTHER NATION HAS IT. It can not be worse than what we have now considering 42 million people in the country have NO COVERAGE AT ALL IT COULD NOT BE ANY WORSE. Fund it with a 1% sales tax on EVERYTHING THAT WAY EVERYONE PAYS THEIR FAIR SHARE FOR IT.

If you would require competitive bidding on Medicare/Medicaid services, cut the fraud and waste in government, close the tax loop holes to corporations and leave Iraq, you could easily pay for for a Universal healthcare plan for those that wish to have that over private insurance. And still have a few hundred BILLION left over each year.

But don't count on it.

Another reason why I won't shop at Wally World. You are right, they have the buying power to get GOOD health insurance for their employees. But they don't. Why anyone would work for an orginization like that baffles me. Walmart has the highest percentage of employees on Medicaid than ANY other employer in the US. Now that's something to be proud of. :roll:

Might explain why they are having a harder time getting new stores built because the community fights to block them from their neighborhoods. That's happening in Austin right now. But Walmart says they'll build anyways. It will probably go to court.

Actually thats not exactly true. The report that came out quite a few years ago showed that Walmart has the highest NUMBER of retail employees on medicaid...Not the highest %. This was due to the fact that no company has more employees than walmart. Actually most retail stores has a higher %. Targets % was way higher than walmart. However thats no longer true anyway about walmart. Right now 90% of all walmart employees have health insurance, which is WAY higher than most corporations. And now walmart even offers its retail employees insurance for as little as 12 bucks a month.
So you can start shopping there again...lol
I used to work at Walmart Corporate and had great health insurance.

It could be that there are a lot of kids and old people working for Walmart?

I dont know where that came from...lol
I DO NOT think its the taxpayers responsibility to pay for someones healthcare. Sorry.
I will say this again...I HAVE GREAT HEALTH INSURANCE AND GET GREAT HEALTHCARE. I DO NOT CARE IF YOU DO.
I SEE NO NEED TO CHANGE ANYTHING ABOUT HEALTHCARE IN THIS COUNTRY.

you know when 47 million people don't have health insurance in the USA then there are big problems. Whether people want insurance and can't get it because they have a pre-exsisting condition that probably isn't their fault. Why should people be denied coverage because these health insurers don't want to take the risk, is that fair to people that want coverage? I'm sorry I rather have a system that accepts people as they are and not fight with people so the insurance company saves money at the cost of people's lives. You may have great coverage sheepdancer but the guy next to you had cancer and can't get coverage. That doesn't seem right to me.

the system is broke, and now it seems to be an act of patriotism to say that its the best in the world and it doesnt need changing

and anyone who says that it is broke is a bleeding heart liberal, or socialist or a commie or whatever other name rush limbaugh and sean hannity label them

as long as i got mine, screw the rest of you, because you are obviously bums

mind you, the cost for health care is higher than ever, and they are covering less, we are all getting screwed.... but lets not address that, lets not fix it, lets just keep on the same path, maintain resolve, not cut and run

Very well said

I said this earlier but bears mentioning again. Accourding to the census, 1/3 of the people in this country without insurance make 50K a year or more...They dont have insurance NOT because they cant afford it, but because they CHOOSE not to have it. Another 1/3 of that number is Immigrants who also choose NOT to have insurance.
Your little example of the guy who cant get it because of cancer makes great propaganda, but just doesnt happen that much like that. What is more realistic is this: Some stupid guy goes through life without insurance even though he could have gotten it, gets cancer and says "Damn, I should have had insurance before this" Then instead of blaiming himself for being stupid in the first place, he blames the government.
Ive known many people with cancer including both my parents. They never had a problem with coverage. Why? Because they planned ahead.
In fact Im going in to be tested for colon cancer next week. God forbid I do have cancer, however if I do, the LAST thing im worried about is the financial situation that might arise with that. Im exteemley covored in that aspect. Also about "pre existing conditions" Ive never worked anywhere that offered health insurance that didnt accept pre existing conditions. Why would someone accept a job like that? When I go to work for a company, I wont take a job unless It offers great benefits.

WE ARE ALL GETTING SCREWED <<~~~ That such a good liberal saying. I love it! You know liberals like you love to say things like that. Part of the doom and gloom agenda. "We are all getting screwed" "the middle class is gone"...."everything is horrible" Bla bla bla bla.......
I would ask you this. If Im being screwed, why are things so damn great right now? How come everyone I know who is middle class is doing great?
Where are all these people who are getting screwed? I sure dont see too many of them. When liberals like yourself make a blanket statement like "WE ARE ALL GETTING SCREWED", you better be able to back it up with facts because someone like me is always going to call you on it.

As far as you saying people like me say " I got mine, screw the rest of you" is not accurate at all. Its more like "I EARNED MINE, YOU EARN YOURS" Its not my responsibility nor the taxpayers to take care of your family.

I think what your not understanding Sheep is the fact that the American people as a whole, are getting ripped off !! 16 % of the G.D.P. goes to healthcare... and 50 million Americans aren't covered.

Your paying for caviar and eating catfood... Where is the money going ?

Free country and 50 million people have the FREEDOM to choose not to have or EARN healthcare.

Here is the problem. Ive never seen a socialized government program make things better. I see so many problems with "hillarycare" that its a joke.
We may not have a perfect healthcare system, but Im very happy with it.
If someone can convince me that changing the way we do healthcare wont raise my taxes or lesson my great quality of my healthcare one bit, I would listen to it at least. But no politician proposing healthcare changes has been able to even come close to that. In fact the democrat congress is trying to pass a massive health care spending bill right now. Great that Bush will veto it.
Again, I will NOT budge one bit off my opinion on this. Every proposal ive seen on healthcare from any politician pretty much equates to lowering the quality of the healthcare I provide for me and my family so some person who wont EARN healthcare can have a little more free crap handed to him. THAT IS JUST NOT ACCEPTABLE TO ME.

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -Thomas Jefferson

The measure of a country's greatness should be based on how well it cares for its most vulnerable populations - Mahatma Gandhi

Thomas Jefferson is a American. So I tend to side with him.
But since you brought it up.
Americans as a whole are most charitable. And we will always seem to find the compassion and the money to help those TRULLY in need.
But what we have today it seems, is a ever growing group that "work" the system, and never hit a lick in their lives. They feed from the trough of others labor. Their demands from the government (taxpayers) are ever increasing. But this is more a societal problem I believe.
I have traveled Eastern Europe some, to some of the former Communist countries. I have seen their healthcare system up close. "Socialized medicine." A friends father needed surgery on a arterial blockage in his leg. Simple, but brutal procedure compared to western standards, but most effective (99%.) There to receive the surgery, one must "pay upfront" for the supplies, medicines, and instruments necessary to do the surgery. The cost of this outdated surgery in the USA would be around $40,000 today. The cost there was $483.96. ( I still have the receipt) (If you wish I could post a photo of the typical ward room) Recovery time in the hospital was 2 weeks, another 2 weeks of physical therapy. In the USA today it is considered day procedure. So, which do you prefer?
On the other hand, one of my life long friends is a rep for a pharmacuetical company. They have meetings in some city all the time. The cost of the "reception" for maybe 30-75 reps, for the little finger sandwiches and cocktails exceeds your yearly earnings from working 70 hours a week. This is not counting the airfares, hotel rooms and other meetings, food, dinners, etc. His and other pharmacutical companies are scared to death of "healthcare" legislation. It will cost them BILLIONS in excess profits here in the USA. They could loose, really BILLIONS on just 1 drug! They along with the medical supply lobby, the insurance lobby,
will put up a huge fight to derail any legislation which will cut into profits.
I am here today probably because of a program designed for self employed people. I needed surgery. But had no health insurance and could not afford the cost when starting out. This was a program available to residents of my state. All the doctors, nurses, hospital etc., reduced their cost to make it more affordable to the state. This very program was going to be CUT by then Gov. Geo. W. Bush. He just gave the oil industry a massive tax cut, and since this state must run on a balanced budget, he needed to cut somewhere else. Why not cut out the small guy first. Geo. W. Bush doesn't know crap about healthcare, and couldn't care less. And don't think for a second that the Dems are going to do any better. They are totally beholden to the same lobbies. They don't care about you or your family. Only their re-election.
My doctor has a backroom, 12 people employed including the "office manager." Each has their own computer and workstation. Their sole purpose is to process INSURANCE forms, NEGOIATE payments, and just ATTEMPT to be paid buy the insurance companies in a reasonable length of time. Insurance companies will dispute a bill over a $10.00 charge, this delays everything 14-30 days, then come back and dispute another $1.00 charge, another delay. Some bills take up to 6 months to resolve. Who benefits most from this? The insurance companies of course. The extra costs the doctor incurs are passed on to the patient, the government, and back to the insurance companies themselves in the form of higher prices, which mean higher premiums. on and on and on. The final result is higher profits for the Insurance companies, less money for you.
So if you have any other suggestions on how to make it better, please let us know.

i make over 50K and i cant afford it

the last time i was able to afford insurance was when i worked for a fortune 500 company, because it was a payroll deduction

but now, no i cannot

and i guess you know why

because i CHOOSE not to insure my wife and kids

aint i such a good father and husband?

ps

i am far from a liberal

but maybe in the black and white world of rush limbaugh, if you arent with us you are with the terrorists, or was that sean hannity or george bush or john ashcroft or ronald dumsfeld?

Perhaps getting rid of things you dont need like internet, cable tv, beer and other crap and then buy insurance would be a good idea.
Or maybe you could just look for a better job that offers good health insurance.

As long as we are posting famous quotes, how about this one.

'We are going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good" Hillary Clinton

or how about this one?
J.B. Hunt offers some of
the best jobs in the transportation industry