Discussion of Predestination "Anything based"
 

Ok people lets discuss predestination, I don't care what religion, or even if theres not one.

I will set down some rules

1) If we quote from the bible or any simular book and it is going to be more than lets say 4 versus, Just put down the versus "EX: John 3:16", That way if we are realy interested we will look at it ourselves, or maybe a web site link.

2) I cant think of any other rules.

The outcome of this is already written, except for some variables due to chance and circumstance, with free will into the equation, yet knowing the results will be the same, even if the route is altered.
I'll just read the last page. :)

Predestination=no free will. Since we have free will then there can be no predestination.

Or whatever we choose to do from our own free will was already predetermined? :D Just being facetious. This is an interesting topic and I hope it gets going.

I wonder sometimes where predetermination came from. Since God is omnipotent, omniscient, & omnipresent He sees and knows everything. God's view is not limited by time as we know it so He can see our beginning and our end. I can see where someone would say that means our outcome is predetermined but is it really? Just because He knows what we will do before we do it does not make it predetermined.

When I contemplate the great complexities of God, I never have a problem accepting being foreordained. He says he knew my name from before I was born. I can see myself with abilities to discern an outcome. I can see a Parent raise and train a child to make the right choices. Maybe the child pays the consequences for wrong choices, but if they are not fatal, the ultimate right choice, is usually made in the end.
I feel sometimes we are given Divine intervention, so the "right" outcome is made....dispite ourselves. This is "fate" in it's puerist form.

Let me use a personal example.
I was 25 years old, and racing a buddy of mine on a winding Lake Shore road. He was on a Sportster in front of me, and I was on my Triumph Bonneville. I had the superior cornering machine, and was determined to prove it. I started to really lay this Bonnie into the corners, but in a "S" curve, I couldn't recover. I was shooting off the road...and knowing I could not make the turn. There is only a second to react...you know you are going to crash....and the best you can do is try your best to pick your spot for the inevitable.
Straight in front of me is a telephone pole, and a curve road sign. All I had time for is to choose which of the two I was going to hit. Of course I chose the road sign, and leaned into it. It was going to be very close to the telephone pole as well, so I braced to make sure I didn't contact the pole.
Next thing I know, I see both the road sign and the telephone pole flash past me, and I bury the front of my Bonnie into a beach side sand dune, and come to a gentle stop. Not me, or my Bike had even the slightest scratch. How could that BE !! I was certain...CERTAIN I would have to hit something. By this time my buddy comes back looking for me. I'm by the edge of the road, bewildered by what just happened. My motorcycle tracks proved I just went between the sign and the pole...but HOW. Even surveying the scene...it seemed totally impossible. My friend and I pushed my Bonnie back up to the road and we even put it on it's very tire tracks.
There was absolutely no physical way we could fit the motorcycle on its tracks and lean the Bike or wiggle it, or in any way shape or form get it to go between the Pole and the Sign. The handle bars were actually hitting one or both, and the bulk of the bike would not fit.....yet there were the tracks....and I distinctly remember seeing I had to choose one or the other, and it would be a close call that I didn't hit them both anyway, and then seeing them flash between me.
This is one example of Divine intervention in my life. I have some even more bizarre stories, but the point I'm making is...there are some far greater things going on, and the magnificence of life is far greater than our comprehension. I see what we can accomplish, and know in my heart how much more God is capable of....and for me, mind-boggling. If I can predestine something...then I can say I have no question God can. If you measure all the combined wisdom and knowledge of man, and it equals less than the dust on the scales...what does that measure? I see the intricacy of life all around me, and it's everywhere, all the time. I have offered an example that life is there, even life we can not see, but it is there.
It's good for us to seek answers. But long as we are mortal...there are many answers we are not ready for. We are learning, and I for one would not consider a predestination as limiting my life to simple fate.

Either way, it can be argued "God is bad!"
 

Let's say I chose to believe in God. This would mean that I have superior intellect to believe "The Truth". Wouldn't that be arrogant on my part? Since some do not choose "The Truth", it must be because there is a design flaw in human beings.

Let's say God chose me to believe in him. Is it fair that God is allowed to choose some and not others?


The reference to "The Truth" comes from John 14:6
Think about the statement, "I am The Truth" for a while and where it leads; it boggles the mind.

John 14:6 (KJV)
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

This is yet another area where the whole religious world flies apart. Either god is a simple voyeur who sits and watches things happen.. or he creates everything and makes things happen. The whole "gods will" thing must be complete fantasy?

Either EVERYTHING is predestined or NOTHING is.

Wow roadhog, that is an incredible story! And you walked away without a scratch. I have been in similar instances and can imagine how you felt sitting there after it happened.

I like the way you compared it to a parent/child relationship. That is basically what it is. God knows us better than we know ourselves. Like you said He knew our name before we were born. From His position I also believe he knows the date and time of our last breath and everything in between.

I also believe there are times when God intervenes in a life and predetermines it. The story of Moses and Pharaoh for example. The Bible explains that God hardened Pharaoh's heart and Pharaoh would not release the Israelites. This was done so that the Israelites would see God's hand in the events to follow.

I guess what is hard for me to conceive is God standing over a list and saying this one, this one, & this one will make it. These other three over here will not. That is what I see as predetermination. If that were the case then where is the free will that we were supposedly made with? God acting in a parental role standing over his creation and when appropriate interceding in it I understand.

I believe that with God's infinite knowledge of us He knows at what point in time our hearts become so hardened that we are lost. Being our Creator I guess you can say He did predetermine that in us. But I also believe until that point when we do become to hardened to believe He being the good parent never stops trying to help us take the right path. I am not sure but I think that is what you are saying in your post. If so, we agree.

Thanks,

There are many "safeguards" in place....and fortunately our time now, is only one aspect in our learning process. I think the choices will be very clear and easy to make when the time comes...for most.
There is going to be much confusion now, and frustration from deceptions, and what seems to be from a God who does not act, or care. Ride it out...now is not a good time to fight, or wish to be in the fight.

I do not believe in Pre-destiny, fate, Karma, luck - good or bad, angels - good or bad, or anything other description that people use to get out of the responsibilities of their actions, or use to "explain" the sad state of affairs they are in for some reason or other.

No one takes care of me, sees over me, or is making sure I am OK or not.

That is my job.

And I do not give my job to others to make sure it gets done.

And I take that job very seriously.

Rocky, I agree with you.
I think what a person believes is his own business, and a personal part of life, that can be shared or not shared...which ever works for you. And whatever a man believes...he should be intitled to.
If more people held their convictions as...personal feelings...there may be less killing over beliefs.
A man should be willing and able to stand up for himself and grab the bull by the horns. Seems if more people accepted responsibility for themselves, I can't imagine how much more healthy society would be.?

I do believe in the Karma issue... There is no way to get away with anything. Until you are on the right path... you will suffer. There is only one person who can control your destiny... that is the person who looks you in the eye when you shave.

The suffering is self inflicted.

If you accept what you have done, if it is a "bad" thing, then the suffering usually ends.

In other words, you control the suffering.

WOW, I realy did not expect this Topic to take off this fast!


My input on predestination is a little diffrent than the majority.
I believe when God spoke of predestination, that it was not on a personal level, but a national level.

Israel, The Jews are predestined to be Gods children, we as Gentiles, through Christ are presdestined to become the seed of Abraham through the Mercies of Christ.

But in that predestination we have a choice, to either believe or not.
Somebody said somthing about Pharo "I cannot spell this morning". That God had hardened his heart. I know God did this to show His glory, and I also know that God gave Pharo many of choices and chances, to let his people go.
My question is, if God would not have hardened pharo's heart, would pharo have let the Jews go? If Yes, this in my opinion would have, not interfered with personal freedom of choice, why? because the choice we have been given is believe or not believe. To Choose between truth and lie, a curse and a blessing.
Does God know all, yes, this is where it gets confusing.
Another example: Cyrus, in Isaiah is proclamed to be one of Gods instrimunts to release the Jews, this befor Cyrus was even born, but Cyrus being predestined to do these things, I do not think this had any bearing on his choice between believing or not. "Did That make Sense?"

Forgive me my mind is everywhere this morning, I cannot seem to pull myself together this morning, matter of fact it has been about a month that I have been in this rut.

Please keep things going for me, I think I will take a break from posting for a while, I am not myself and I don't think I am making to much sense anymore compared to my earlier postings.
I am going to take a break for a while, so keep it going until I can get my bearings.

Thanks Y'all

Slimland.

Slimland....
maybe your body is trying to tell you it's time to take it out to the Bar. It's not so much your words, but your body language is cryin' out for a long dragged out drunk. Go loosen up...man.

Hey...if not for yourself...do it for me. I can't go celebrate St.Pattie's and slug my Irish buddies till I get a smile outta them. :lol:

Where does God fit?
 

I guess this means God has no power and is hoping things will work out?

Re: Where does God fit?
 

Not at all. It just means that it is our choice and the outcome of our choice is our responsibility. God's plan will work out regardless.

Maybe thats what it is, :lol:

Man, I am sorry guys, I don't know what the Hell is wrong with me. I seem so indisisive and questoning my every thought, I think I have got to much stress going on right now. and it is effecting my writing, the only thing I seem to be capable of besides being a jerk, is playing the guitar. When I am doing that things seem to slip away, but as soon as I put it down, the feeling comes back.

I know this thread is not the place to put this, maybe I need to make a crybaby thread. This is so frustrating, this is not me. I take pressure pretty well, but this is getting to me.

Sometimes I feel as if my faith is failing, but that cannot be it, cause I know that I am a reciever of the one that gives, and He is always faithful.
I just wish He would lighten the load. Maybe I just need to bury my head into the Word, but I don't realy know what good it would do. You see. It is like I was going to buy a book on positive thinking, but then I thought, what the Hell good would it do.

I have argued, yelled, submitted, even ignored and everything possible, to get God to give me some relief, NONE. I know He is there, I can feel Him and I stand on His Word, but no relief. I know in the end it will work out for the better, but how much more can a man take?

Look, I have lost a child back in 1997, I have been married to Satan and still have to deal with her, and this puts strain on anything I do, My kids that I just recieved costody on, have mental issues because of this woman and her famly. It affects Me and My wife and her 2 kids, its hard, on top of this I have been on workmans comp, for 2 years, almost lost my home 4 times, had to file bankruptcy, my vans transmission went out, this is our only vehicle, and knowing I will get released soon from my injury, the thought of trying to find a job after 2 years, is not very comforting, it is not the work it is the lack of. What I mean by that is, do you know how hard it is to find a job, after you havn't worked for 2 years. I guess I will have to go back into the resturant managment, which I lothe. I cannot go back on the road, my kids need me here. this freeking sucks. oh, and not to mention having to be on pain medication the rest of my life.

I know :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:


Sorry
It just sucks!!! And I cant seem to overcome it, Not to mention my son, has turned out to be just like his mother, Satans little spawn. And knowing what I am going to have to do with him, just tears me up. He is the most spoiled, lying, manipulating, child I have ever seen. So I am thinking of putting him in boys ranch, just so he would know what real life is, and maybe they can teach him something that could change him. It is that or I will have to move so he won't have so much contact with his mother and her demonic famly. That think the world revolves around them, and there the only one's that have ever been in Vietnam. They have brain washed this child into a world of D&D, and manipulation of the most evilest kind.
I know it will take a long time to get 11 years of hell out of this child, and this is not including the abuse he and his sister have been through. Luckly, I think I got her befor she came about her own personality, but the damage is still there. She just thinks better than he does.

Sorry again.

Re: Where does God fit?
 

Are you assuming that God cares?

I find it interesting that some tend to think God has emotions like we do.

I think Paul believed in predestination.
 

Redeemed, how do you read this and Romans 9? Should everything written by Paul be thrown out of the Bible?

Ephes. 1:4-5 (KJV)
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: [5] Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,...

Ephes. 1:11-12 (KJV)
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: [12] That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.


Since God created man in His (or their) image (Gen 1:26) It is reasonable to assume that God has emotions.

Edited to add (or their) while referring to the Genesis 1:26 passage.

Slim...
.......sounds rough what you are having to go through, and I can imagine you are weary of it all. If there is some way you can step back for a break? Go for some walk in the country...any where relaxing? Take some moments to yourself before a nice sunrise? Things like that would refresh me, when I had trials that never seemed to have an end. You have to refresh your soul and just breathe.
Don't feel the need to apologise for your honest feelings. It's good to talk about it with someone. Not someone too close to the same, but someone on the outside, like a friend, or a Minister, someone who can offer you good ears, or maybe a voice....the help you've been asking for, can usually be given to you through another person. This gives you the words you need to hear sometimes, and offers that person an oppertunity to be an instrument of God. Any way....from the outside looking in, is many times a more clear view.
Does your Dad live anywhere nearby? If you could get together with him, and play your guitars together. It's hard to offer you advice, when I barely know you, but I do wish you well, and suggest how ever you find your way through this...try to take care of yourself as well, along the way.

I apreciate the comeback, my dad lives in branson, so thats a little to far, but I tell you, I do feel alittle better just spouting off like that. I know it realy didn't change anything, but all the same, maybe I can type normaly now. we will see.

Maybe in my running away from my God, will bring me closer. Don't get me wrong I will never deny Him, I just feel sometimes the pressure He puts on His children is a little to much. I look at the situation and I think, is this the way I need to be with my Son. Is that what He's teaching me, Tough Love. Is He bringing me down further, so I could rely on Him more. All these things are pissibilitys. And I know with the gift's He has givin me, I am held under more responsisbility, than I would be if I didn't have them. I don't know if I want that responsisbility. But then again in order for me to recieve more of Him, I have to let go and live for Him. I guess the letting Go is the problem. We as a people love our sin and idol's, and we as Christians, are more subsepctibal to this than the World. Thank God for Grace.


I remember in Chorinthians, a man had his fathers wife, they were doing the nasty, and he was not ashamed. Paul in his wisdom, told the church to cast them out. If you read on you find out the reason he told them to cast them out, was because of the conscious, of the church. I thought that was wiered. So I read on. I come to find out, that this person who did this was forgiven at the cross, and He knew this, but he loved his lifestyle, so Paul hands him over to satan so he learns not to blaspheme. He then realizes his wrong, and returns to the church.

So who was Paul the most worried about?
He was worried about the church, why? Because the conscious is what condems the believer. What I mean is, The man who did this hurt the church, more than he did himself. The church seeing this, some thinking it was wrong, it hurt their walk with God, by clouding their conscious.
As for the man who did it, he knew he was forgivin therfor using the grace of God for the occasion to sin, this was wrong that is why Paul exspelled him from the church untill he learned to stop that.

I think it is amazing the love of God, it all boiles down to beliefe.
Paul tells us, "everything is permissable, but not all things are profitable."
Even though we as Christians have freedome, we still fallow the rule of "what you reap, is what you sow"

So I guess in a way, maybe that is what going on with me. I am reaping what I sow.

If what you do affects the concious of others that is the greater sin. Because sin is the knowledge of the law. So on a personal level with Christ we are dead to the law, therfor we are dead to sin, this is what John meant, when he said Gods people do not sin. Because the only sin atributed to man, is denying God, the other sins are fruits of the unbelief.

So you are effecting someone elses concious and making them stumble.
Even though you know it is ok to eat meat, and if you are with a brother and he thinks it is a sin to eat meat, then you eat it in front of him. this entices him to eat that meat, and if he does he has sinned. Why? Because his concious condems him, Anything that is not of Faith is SIN.
So you sinned in making him stumble and he sinned against his concious.

WOW, how did I get on that!!

I think I am back I feel so much better.

Maybe I just needed to get it out.

On with the subject.

Thanks roadhog

By the way good to here from you havn't chatted with you since th Fozzy debate.

Lets see if I can shed some light on my jaw flapping.

Pre destination refers to those in Christ and the Jews and brethren.
It does not interfer with FreeWill.

Ephes. 1:4-5 (KJV)
[color=red]According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, [/color]that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: [5] Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,...

This was used earlier, Context people.

He has chosen befor the foundation of the world, that who ever comes to Christ of freewill.

When they come to Christ, His blood cleanses them from all sin therfor, they holy and without blame.re ho

Therfor being in Christ you are predestined, and in His will, this did not affect the will because the choice had already been made by the believer.


In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: [12] That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.


Key word Trusted, so therfor a choice had been made by a believer.

Re: Where does God fit?
 

It is not a assumtion, according to the bible that we stand by God cares.

And where is the proof of this? It sure doesn't come out to be true in any type of historical context now does it?

Re: I think Paul believed in predestination.
 

Absolutely not. 2 Timothy 3:16 & 17 I believe cover this. I went back to read Romans 9 this morning and then went on to Romans 10. Paul explains in Romans 10 that it is by faith that we are saved, not by any great deeds of our own. It is by simple demonstration of faith.

Romans 10:8-13

(8)But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, " that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming:
(9)That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
(10)For it is with your heart thta you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
(11)As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
(12)For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile-the same Lord is Lord of all and richley blesses all who call on him,
(13)for , "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

I think Paul makes it clear here that man is saved by accepting Christ into his heart and not by a pretermination. Now clearly with God as the creator He knows what he made His creation for and what it will do. God will know well in advance if His creation will ever love and accept Him. But is that because God made that choice for His creation? I saw no, it is because of the make up of His creation and the free will He gave us.

John 3:16-21 is another interesting passage along these lines. Jesus says in verse 20 that evil men hate the light that has come into the world and refuse to come into it for fear of exposing their sin. Verse 21 says that men who live by the truth comes into the light. My question here is Jesus not describing the very choice we all must make. Again that free will issue pops up. (PS all scripture reference from NIV study Bible)

Good question. But then again it is kinda like someone asking you to prove your Mom & Dad love you. You could give them examples of how they cared and nurtured you but you could probably give them example of how they hurt you as well. So other than some examples of actions in a historical context you could not prove they love you.

God chooses us, we don't choose him...

Predestination - YEEEESSSS!

Fozzy, don't tell me you just asked that question.

"God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." There is your proof Fozzy.
Not to mention Psalm 4 vrs8 "I will both lie down in peace, and sleep; for You alone, O Lord, make me dwell in safty"
"The good sheperd leaves the 99 to find the one"
"God doesn't want any to perish, but all to come to know His Son"

Must I go on.

No, but I am sure you will.

That, after all, is what preachers do.

:lol: :lol: Rocky....... :lol:

yer like a silent fart with the windows rolled up.

I would bet money...this Spring when you hike them Mountain trails, and come up on a Big Brown...who would give the trail. :P

To coin an old MASH phrase from the beloved Col. Potter...

"Buffalo Bagels"....

And you hardly even know me. :lol:

Can anyone thwart God's will?
 

Since God is all knowing and present everywhere, can anyone do anything now that would compell God to exclaim "whoa, what happened!" from his vantage point in the future? If we gain free will, God loses his.


So how is it that anyone comes to believe in God? After all, the Bible clearly teaches that we must believe in Jesus to be saved from our sins. Do we believe by our choice or is the belief given to us?



The term "freewill" or free will appears nowhere in the King James version of the New Testament but many times in the Old Testament when referring to offerings.


John 6:65 (KJV)
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Jesus taught that our belief is predicated on God giving it to us.

Matthew 16:15-17 (KJV)
He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? [16] And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. [17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

If the people walking with Jesus were not even able to understand who Jesus is on their own, how can people thousands of years later not only understand who he is, but believe in him?

In the parable of the sower, who prepares the good soil for the seed so that it will grow?



John 10:25-28 (KJV)
Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. [26] But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. [27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: [28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Did the Pharisees have a choice?

Why is verse 27 worded this way and not something like "Many people upon hearing my voice become my sheep and follow me"? Was the Word having a bad day?

I know this debate goes has gone on and on and will continue to do so.

My concern is many people today hold back the harsh realities of the Gospel and try to persuade, cajole, and convince people to a watered down belief in Jesus only for them to get to the gates of heaven and have Jesus declare "depart from me, you who practise lawlessness, I never knew you." Matthew 7:23

Re: Can anyone thwart God's will?
 

But does God really lose his free will if we have ours? You could go to Genesis and ask that question about Adam & Eve. Was it predetermined by God that Adam & Eve would eat the forbidden fruit? Surely God knew they would but did He make them with the intent already planted by Him that they would disobey?

As far as how do we believe in God I think Romans 10:14 &15 states it fairly well.

14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news."

It is true that the specific term "free will" does not appear but there are other terms that do not appear. For example no where will you find a specific term or title of the Trinity. However, for most Christians it is one of the main pillars that holds our faith. Free will is persumed all the way back to Adam & Eve. God gave them the instructions to eat of any tree except the tree of knowledge. Again, back to an earlier question. Was it their choice to eat the forbidden fruit or an ingrained instruction placed in them by God to do it. If it was an ingrained predeterminded instruction then the serpent was not needed at all to prod them into it.

John 6:65 is a good passage but is it really saying that God must give it or is it saying that it is not possible to obtain it by mearly human means. This is the part where Jesus talks being the bread of life. At the same time he says no man can come except given to me by the Father he also says clearly that we must believe. So is this that God has pre-selected those who will be saved knowing full well the ones who will not? Or is it that God has enabled all in their heart to hear Him but it is our choice to listen and act?

John 6:28 & 29

28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

John 6: 35 - 40

35Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.
36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37All tht the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Now at this point the people in the crowd begin to grumble and complain. Verse 42 talks about them saying he is the son of Joseph so how can he now say he comes down from heaven. Jesus takes them further in verse 43.

43"Stop grumbing among yourselves," Jesus answered.
44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God, Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

Now when taken as a whole this entire passage can get confusing. Several times Jesus references God "giving" those to Him. However, other times He clearly points out choices that must be made by the person. Example, believe in the one sent, He who comes to me will never go hungry, whoever comes to me I will never drive away, everyone who looks upon the Son and believes will have eternal life. So in context is "given" in verse 65 meant as a predetermined decision by God for each individual believer or a general term describing that God has enabled all to hear. I think Romans 1:18-23 may explain it.

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who surpress the truth by their wickedness,
19since what may be known about God is plain to them.
20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

I believe that Paul is clearly stating that we all have an ingrained general ability to hear and worship God. But it is our own wickedness that gets in the way. I think this also answeres your quesiton about how if those who walked with Jesus did not know or believe him how can we now. Jesus came at a time of some of the most wickedness and sin. Many of those He taught were stooped in the works based belief forced upon them by the elite leaders of the faith in their time. If you read in the gospels about Jesus's death you will notice that even though Jesus told them many times he must die and rise again it is not till after it happens that the disciples finally start connecting all the dots and remembering the prophecies taught to them since youth. And then again remember, the disciples were not the most educated group of men. They were the laborers of the day not scholars.

In the parable of the sower, the farmer is the one who is sowing the seed. That is anyone who spreads the Gospel from Jesus on forward. But again I believe your question can be answered going back to Romans 1. But for another answer lets look at the parable in Matthew Chapter 13.

14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: You will be ever hearing but never understanding: you will be ever seeing but never perceiving;
15For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.

Here I believe is another example of Romans 1. Their hearts had become so hardened that they could not see. Now from Romans 1 that tells us it is most likely from their own wickedness and desire not to see. Maybe the better question is who hardens the soil instead of who tills it. From what we have gone over it appears our hearts were ready made for planting but by our own neglect we have allow the field to harden and become barren.

Did the pharisees have a choice? Yes I believe they did. I may be wrong but if I recall correctly I believe Joseph of Arimathea was a rich man and part of the ruling elite in the Jewish faith. So if that is correct then there is one pharisee who had a choice. Of course the other famous zelot who made a choice was Saul....later know as Paul.

Following along with your questions, I do not know why verse 27 was not worded differently. Again, as pointed out earlier is this is akin to the "given" .vs "enabled" question. Romans 1 says we are enabled to hear and worship God from the begining but our wickedness can stop that ability and harden our hearts.

To close this post I have to say I honestly do not understand your last statement or how it relates to predetermination. So instead of trying to assume meaning I will not comment. But the verse from Matthew you cite is very interesting. It is from the passage where Jesus talks about a tree and its fruit. Good trees give good fruit, bad trees give bad fruit. Using the Holy Spirit and the Bible as a guide we will be able to know which is which. One similarity I can make is something Slimland and I were discussion on the prophecy topic. That there are many who preach in the name of Jesus but only for their own monetary benefit. Even though the message they send out is of the Gospel it is for their own selfish means. Does this diminsh the message if it saves someone? No. Does it mean that the preacher who did it only for money will get into Heaven? No as well. It is not by works we are saved it is by faith.

chap, thank you for a good post. It was great to use it to get into the Word and study tonight. Sorry that the post is so long. (PS scripture from NIV)

Not a preacher, just a teacher, Fozzy mad an inacurate statment and I corrected him. And yes I believe I will go on. :lol:

The difference between a teacher and preacher is as follows.

A preacher speaks from faith and will not change their perspective, only the way they deliver their message.

A teacher speaks from knowledge and will modify their perspective as the knowledge developes or changes.

So litttle has changed in Religion (dogma) in the last 1000 years, it is almost not worth noting.

All of your statments are based on christian dogma.

So, no, you are not a teacher, you are a preacher.

Teachers "teach" from more than one perspective.

You "preach" a doctrine.

Understand, that this is not meant as an insult. It is an observation.

Re: Can anyone thwart God's will?
 

Well Redeemed said it all, WOW, and I didn't have to hurt my hands.

I guess the only thing left is the last statement.


To tell the truth there are no harsh reality's to the Gosphel. "He that BELIEVES IN ME, even though he is dead, yet shall he live" This is the Gosphel in a nut shell.

This is what Peter, Paul, John,etc. Where trying to get across to people.
Jesus said it himself "The worlds sin, is not believing in me".
Hebrews tell's us Sin is unbelief, and (sin's) "plural" is the fruit of unbelief.
Jesus died for the sins of the world, this forgivness is forever. But if He is not accepted, that still leaves you dead from your sins previously commited. This is where His ressurection comes in, it gives new life. So now a believer is dead to sin, why? Because he believe's in the life giver.
In order to have eternal life, you must have eternal forgivness. So this is what Jesus did, He died once for all, and rose again to give new life. But the only way to have the new life is to accept Him.
Churches and denominations, have made this a mockery, they make it so hard for anyone to accept Christ, and the plan of redemtion was so simple.
Mosses raised the serphent on the pole, and God told him "anyone who looks on the serphent on the pole will live" it was that simple. That was a forerunner to Christ on the Cross, Look at My Son, and BELIEVE He is, and you will be saved.

So now God does not deal with a true Christian on the basis of Sin, but on the basis of a new life.

The one's who he tells depart from me. Are the one's who Denied Him. EX: Judas walked with Him, Talked with Him, Was there when He fed the 5,000. Was there when He raised Lazurus, etc. But in the end he did not BELIEVE Jesus was the Messiah.
It is all a matter of the heart and mind.

The only Sin atributed to man, is What did you do with Gods Son. Did you accept Him or Not.
While we were enemy's God reconciled us to Himself, So be reconciled.
It is a free gift, to be accepted by a Freewill.

So now we know there is no more sacrifice for SIN. Therfor if we keep on in SIN, we have tread foot the Son of God, and counted His blood like that of a bull and a goat. So agian what is Sin, but unbelief, this is a choice of Free Will.
God predestined everyone, but He gave us a choice if we want to accept it.

"If you choose not to decide, you still have mad a choice" Rush
"On the edge of sleep I heard voices behind the door, the known and nameless, the familiar and faceless, my angels and demons at war. Which one will lose, depends on what I choose, or maybe which voice I ignore"

No sir you are incorrect

With all due respect Rocky, I do not preach a doctrin, I teach the Word of God, that is in the Bible. If I tought a doctrin or preached, then I would be putting limites on Gods word in which I teach. it would be Like a Religion, instead of a Life.

No offence Taken.

I understand what you are saying, I hope you understand what I am saying.

I cannot stand Religion, it is the downfall of man.

But I love being a Child of God.