Detroit 60 randomly will not start
 

I have a 2000 FLD 120 Freightliner with the Detroit series 60 engine. Lately It will just spin over at normal rpm but will not start until I give it a bit of ether. Then at times it will start just like a brand new truck. No matter how much fuel in the tanks or no specific time before it will not start. I have tried to figure a pattern but it is just to random and often. Truck exibits no problems while I drive it. I am planning to take it to Freightliner Thursday. Just thought you folks might have an idea on this.

Re: Detroit 60 randomly will not start
 

so, when it does this, it will absolutely not start without a sniff of "death in a can"?

how long do you crank?

any fault codes show up?

does the tach move during crank?

does it run rough or smoke after it does start?

could this happen after the vehicle has sat for only an hour or so?

Hello Bob and thank you for a response.

so, when it does this, it will absolutely not start without a sniff of "death in a can"?
*** that is correct.

how long do you crank?
***Anywhere from 5 to maybe 8 seconds. I stop for a second and then do the same thing.

any fault codes show up?
***No fault codes although the "check engine" green light comes on as I work the starter then goes off immediately when I let off the starter.

does the tach move during crank?
*** good question I have not noticed that. But will check.

does it run rough or smoke after it does start?
***no rough running or smoke. Everything is as if it started normally.

could this happen after the vehicle has sat for only an hour or so?
***That is the kicker, There is no real pattern to follow. It is really random. Like today I get in the truck this morning and it just spins over normal short of starting. I then add the ether and it starts fine. I drive a couple hours and shut it off for about a half hour and same thing. I go around the building to reload and sit maybe a half hour and it starts right up like normal. Thanks for any thoughts on this.

you can safely crank for 30 seconds, but i don't think it will matter in your situation, i was suspecting fuel drain-back... but i don't think so anymore.

...sounds electronic, you'll have to have someone monitor data stream on a scanner/laptop to see what's missing (while it's acting up); it is likely a missing engine position/speed signal.

if you want a very random, uneducated silver bullet, you could try replaceing the TRS (timing reference sensor located near the crank in the bottom of the gear case) it provides engine speed signal to the ecm, and might be the cause of your problem, the SRS (synchronous reference sensor located by the air compressor) could cause the same complaint, maybe you could unplug each and check for damaged terminals, etc.. but i would recommend getting it scanned to be sure, as this sensor replacement idea is a shot in the dark

Hey Bob. Yeah I got to thinking about just changing certain things in hope it would fix it. In the end though I just took it to Freightliner and let them have at it, hey whats 88 bucks an hour huh! . I will let you know what they find as soon as I get it back.

Frank

Try new batteries. My truck was doing something similar. There was not enough voltage in my batteries to send proper signal to ECM. After new batteries problem gone. Give it a shot before you bring it to dealer.

The batteries I have are not even a year old. They definitly spin the engine up. Although I have a coworker that did have a problem like that and bought new batteries and replaced some ground wires and it straightened his truck right out.

Looks like Bob is the winner! Just got a call from Freightliner and they said I needed The TRS and the SRS plus 3 fuel lines which showed signs of wear. Now to guess the bill :roll: Thanks for the input on this folks :wink:

Frank

odd that both sensors would fail at the same time... did either have metal filings on the tip?

I thought about that too Bob but was just glad to get the truck back and be done with the problems I was having. As for the metal filings I did not get an answer on that as it was a Saturday that I picked it up and the desk guy was busy answering the darn phone. I just paid and left. :roll:
Thanks again for your feedback on my question Bob. Much appreciated.

Frank

I would bet on metal shaving on the sensors, either from the bull gears, or the accessory drive bearings going bad and dropping metal in the pan.

Check for looseness in the accessory drive pulley with the belt off. Oil leakage around the accessory drive will also be a sigh of bad bearings.

Or, the sensor could have just been bad, or if metal was present, it could just be normal build up from age and miles.

Glad it is fixed.

I would bet on metal shaving on the sensors, either from the bull gears, or the accessory drive bearings going bad and dropping metal in the pan.

Check for looseness in the accessory drive pulley with the belt off. Oil leakage around the accessory drive will also be a sigh of bad bearings.

exactly.

or..., a good tech will find the chunks in the pan while draining the engine oil

Or, the sensor could have just been bad, or if metal was present, it could just be normal build up from age and miles.

the filings can mess up the sensor's signal

metal build-up from "age and miles" should be removed by oil/filter changes

Glad it is fixed.

""

Ok I just got back with the Freightliner repair facility that did my repair for the no start problem. It was explained to me that the SRS sensor was not sending a signal because of bad windings in the sensor. It was noted there was no noticable metal on that magnetic sensor and that it was specifically the winding inside and was told in all probability that constant heat for as old as it was was the reason for failure. As for the other sensor (TRS) they replace it as a precaution. That is fine with me as the parts only ran 60.00 and 44.00 respectivly. Better safe than sorry far as I'm concerned. :wink:

Good deal. If one was bad then the other probably was not far behind.

Glad to hear there was no noticeable metal. Sounds like you are good to go.

I have a Star with the Detroit 60 that when ever it feels like it, it takes about 20+ seconds to crank. this ONLY happens after the truck sits over night. some mornings it starts like it cant wait to run, & some mornings it is a bear to start. temp. has nothing to do with it. 20* or if it sits until late afternoon in the summer @ 90*. I was thinking about the fuel loosing it's prime but it's done it for over 2 years & has not gotten any worse.

does it smoke?

when it's cold, but it does not make any difference if it is an easy start or a hard start. one thing I have found that helps "some times" is if I crank it for about 3-5 seconds then stop then another 3-5 she may fire up. but when I say it starts fast I mean as soon as the hits the start position if starts, it's that fast, even in the cold (for the south).

I have had mine fixed for a couple of weeks now and it starts just as soon as I touch the starter. Couple of times it was in the upper teens. No hesitation or anything. What a relief from what I was going thru before. I finally tossed the ether cans :D

Frank

o.k. my turn...i have similiar problem. my truck is almost impossible to start. but only when temp is cold. 40 or colder. but if it plugged up it cranks up quick no matter how cold it is outside. if not plugged up & cold, it will eventually crank but will sputter shake, rattle & roll before leveling out & sounds like it's missing on every cylinder for 3 -5 seconds before reaching that normal motor sound... o.k now bob.. do your stuff.. tell me something. already changed back fuel check thingy..

i'll assume it's an s60?

check for fuel in the oil... again, does it smoke when it does fire up? does it smoke during cranking?

yes it is a series 60 detroit 11.1 i cannot detect any fuel in the oil. by looks smell e.t.c. it does smoke.. when cranking white & a clear like mist emits from stack. for some uneducated reason i have always thought it was an injector leaking down. had prob last 2 years & after too much money spent & diagnosis, to this day no one can tell me for sure. i got tired of the downtime cost & putting on a trial by error parts. it does not start like it should on warn days either. but the difference is like night & day. i can live with the warm weather starting. 3-4 seconds when warm vs 8-9 tries when cold before firing up..

="heavyhaulerss"]yes it is a series 60 detroit 11.1 i cannot detect any fuel in the oil. by looks smell e.t.c. it does smoke.. when cranking white & a clear like mist emits from stack. for some uneducated reason i have always thought it was an injector leaking down.

if the injector leaked into the cylinder, you would have black smoke at startup. if the injector leaked up you would have fuel in the oil

had prob last 2 years & after too much money spent & diagnosis, to this day no one can tell me for sure.

what parts have been replaced?

what were (any) results of diagnosis?

what is cranking fuel pressure?

what is running fuel pressure?

has the restricted fitting been drilled?

is injector calibration codes correct?

does the fuel pump leak from the weep hole?

is there a black mess beneath the exhaust manifold or on the oil cooler?

when was the valves and injectors adjusted last?

how does the engine perform normally?

what is peak boost under load?

DOES THE ENGINE SMOKE ONCE IT'S RUNNING?

i got tired of the downtime cost & putting on a trial by error parts. it does not start like it should on warn days either. but the difference is like night & day. i can live with the warm weather starting. 3-4 seconds when warm vs 8-9 tries when cold before firing up..[/quote

pr ts replaced were some sort of fuel check just behind fuel pump. thought by mechanic that it was losing prime & that would fix it. the suction line. because it was thought the it was sucking air.. ????? dint know about running or cranking fuel pressure. not sure if anyone done that. if so i heard of no results from such a test. resricted fue fitting drilled ? no idea. no fuel pump leak anywhere externally. dint know where the oil cooler is or what it looks like. sorry :oops: dint know about peak boost either. i have overhead run every 90 - 100,000 miles. no matter if overhead just ran yesterday or 8 months ago. same cold start up prob reguardless. but the last was done 86,000mi ago. normaly engine runs o.k. get 5.5-6.5 mpg depending on load, wind, hills, e.t.c. when the truck is running & you are 20 ft away you could not tell it is running by looking at exauhst stack. virtualy no smoke. sorry for so much lack of knowledge on my past repairs & ignorance on my truck engine components

quote="heavyhaulerss"]pr ts replaced were some sort of fuel check just behind fuel pump.

maybe it was behind the cylinder head ?

thought by mechanic that it was losing prime & that would fix it. the suction line. because it was thought the it was sucking air.. ????? dint know about running or cranking fuel pressure. not sure if anyone done that. if so i heard of no results from such a test.

fuel pressure and restriction are very basic engine performance checks and were likely done and not mentioned ...... ?

resricted fue fitting drilled ? no idea.

never mind ;)

no fuel pump leak anywhere externally. dint know where the oil cooler is or what it looks like.

right beneath the turbo, passenger side

sorry :oops: dint know about peak boost either. i have overhead run every 90 - 100,000 miles.

that's about twice as often as i would recommend ... assuming longhaul miles

no matter if overhead just ran yesterday or 8 months ago. same cold start up prob reguardless. but the last was done 86,000mi ago. normaly engine runs o.k. get 5.5-6.5 mpg depending on load, wind, hills, e.t.c. when the truck is running & you are 20 ft away you could not tell it is running by looking at exauhst stack. virtualy no smoke. sorry for so much lack of knowledge on my past repairs & ignorance on my truck engine components[/quote

you need to verify that your fuel system is sealed tight, and that it's making sufficient pressure and flow

does the engine always crank fast?

cranks???? yes it cranks quick. turns over quick, but not start quick. if thats what you mean. there was a back check installed at back of head. but another one on dr side just above starter just right out & in back of fuel pump . i guess it's the fuel pump..... i bet your wondering how in the hell can a guy as ignorant as me get to over a mil miles on a truck, have no breakdowns in over 7 years and all original components from engine thru trans & rears ? huh ?. truck has never had any major work done to it. i bought in 99 original trans, original clutch.(dont ask me how) same rears u joints e.t.c. i never broke down.. yet!! i do preventative maint. what i know or see. 1 sensor 1 water pump -o- ring seal & the usual tires,braks ,seals, belts, hoses, e.t.c. a dealer put a srs sensor saying that might be prob. that was 2 years ago or more.. didnt help s bit. i'm sure i can find out what is wrong. i just have to take it to some one who knows their stuff. i have such a place but he is reall good & his honesty is unbeleivable. the prob is he is always booked up. & i cannot make appoint a week or 2 in advance. never know where i'll be. then the downtime prob. but it does not keep me from driving or making money. just very aggravating. thank you for all your time, advice, & reading my post..