One for the Master[de]baters… you know who you are… Question 1
 

Unless I’m mistaken, nowhere in the regs does it define the word “co-driver”. This might sound silly, but really, it could be important. I was thinking, my wife is licensed but very rarely drives anymore. When she does go out with me, it really doesn’t make sense for her to maintain a log for every day just so she can drive maybe one day a week or less so I can get a restart. I posed this question to the nice lady who runs the Declo, ID scale (aka Cotterel Port of Entry) on WB I-84, and she seemed to think that my idea makes sense and would not violate any laws. My concern is that some of the more skeptical DOT folks might wonder how I was off duty and / or in the sleeper birth while the truck was moving if I had no co-driver. I’d probably be okay as long as the wife is still in the truck with me and had her logbook showing that she did indeed drive for one day, but what if she had gotten out of the truck a day or two before? The only thing I’d have to prove that there was another driver in my truck is her DOT physical long form, which always stays in the truck. We all know that innocent until proven guilty is only a pipedream out on the road. Any thoughts or experience with doing this?

Musicman........What an amazingly complex question!!! :thumbsup:

I'd say to have her maintain a log book, even for when she's at home. That way there's a record of it.

I'd have to agree with Malaki86.

For consecutive days off (out of the truck) I would write in the comments area "off duty (date) thru (date)" on a single sheet just to cover her butt. If she is in the truck, I'd say log it accordingly, because she occasionally does drive and holds a commercial license and technically is a co-driver.

The cost of the logbook and the effort to keep it updated has got to be cheaper than dealing with an overzealous DOT officer, fines, and court dates if it came down to it.

Do you have a laptop & printer in the truck? If so, use a logbook program, such as Drivers Daily Log. That way, you would only need to print them when necessary.

But she’s NOT a co-driver. If I picked up a load and brought it back to my yard, and I went off duty and she got in the truck and delivered the load, she wouldn’t be a co-driver. According to the nice lady in Idaho, the wife could drive one day and I could drive the next and never be on each other’s log as co-drivers. Quite frankly, I can’t find anything in the regs that indicates you couldn’t both drive in the same day and not be co-drivers. I own the truck so I can easily be a rider with a form signed by me (if the DOT wants to be picky) giving me permission to be a rider. Same goes for my wife. Why can't I (or she) not be off duty for a day and just be a rider? This is why I’m interested in the definition of a co-driver. That one DOT officer might agree that I can do this, but I have doubts as to whether or not every officer would see things my (or her) way.

If she's in the truck and if she's going to drive, then we make sure she has off duty logs for the previous seven days. It happens so rarely that we don't really worry about when she's not in the truck. If we ever got audited as a carrier, having her create a bunch of off duty logs wouldn't be that difficult.

Chief Master(de)bator on duty Sir! Indeed, an interesting question. I, of course, know the answer. Oh.... did you want me to post it?

Hobo, when I think of master[de]bators, you are one of the first who come to mind. By all means, grace us with your knowledge. ;)

Maybe I'm missing something, but if she gets stopped or God forbid gets in an accident while she's driving, isn't the driver of that particular commercial vehicle going to have to produce a log book in addition the license, insurance, medical card, etc ... sounds like a "driver" to me, co-driver, companion, passenger, whatever you want to call her, she would have to produce documents that ANY driver would have to produce. I honestly don't see what the big deal is when you can use one log page to document any number of days off ... takes maybe 2 minutes to get current prior to driving while you reset.

You are apparently missing the whole point. On the rare occasion she drives, of course she’s logging it. But there are many advantages (mostly it comes down to convenience for her) to her not having to maintain a log if she goes out with me three weeks and I never run hard enough that she’d need to drive. There's also advantages for me if I can simply stay off duty while she's driving and not worry about hiding out in the sleeper, for example. If I’m simply a passenger for the day, it’s none of the DOT’s business what I’m doing at any given moment.

According to the FMSCA regs, logs must be kept current to the last change of duty. Are you insinuating that we should violate those regs? Perish the thought! I’m offended. I’d rather find a way to legally avoid regulatory stupidity instead of subject myself to it. According to FMCA guidance, “a co-driver“ (of course we don’t really know what one of those is) riding in the passenger seat next to the driver must be logged “On-duty (not driving).” If my wife were to be my co-driver the whole time she’s in the truck and never drive, she’d have to stay in the sleeper the entire time the truck is moving. That gets old after a week or two on the road.

Look, my biggest interest here is that the FMCSA, an organization that has felt it necessary to define such complex words and terms as: “accident,” “bus,” “alcohol concentration,” “driver,” “emergency,” and “employee” to name a few, has made no effort anywhere to define what constitutes a “co-driver.” Nobody here, including GolfHobo I bet, can tell me what a “co-driver” is in the estimation of the FMCSA because the FMCSA itself has never defined it.

I would say, that as long as your logs that you would present to an LEO, if roadside inspected, properly reflect that you can legally be where you are at the time of inspection, without your wife having been in control of the unit.....you shouldn't worry yourself over the subject.

You are correct, sir. The FMCSR's don't address a co-driver because they are concerned with the regulations of DRIVERS and their HOS, etc. There is a guidance question posed to them about a co-driver in the passenger seat, and their answer is in the form of .... "a DRIVER in the passenger seat of a CMV "in operation" is to be logged on line 4."

I have complained for years that the regs were designed with only solo drivers in mind, and yours is a good example of that.

As to your original question.... okay, I should do some research. I haven't had to argue regs since the REV left town. But, I'll take a stab at an opinion. Alot would depend on the requirements of the company you are hauling for. As you are an O/O, you may have some leeway. If your wife is not listed as a driver on the dispatch paperwork, they might refuse to "insure" her if she got in an accident. However, as for the DOT.... she is a qualified driver. As such, she cannot come on duty and drive if she has not been in an off duty condition for 10 hrs, OR.... in the sleeper for 8 hours. That part is complicated and I don't feel like going into it right now.

The minute she takes the wheel, she is responsible for her duty status prior to driving, including all the alcohol regs and such... and the HOS. If she has been in the sleeper while you were driving, she should be okay to drive. If she has been sitting next to you for YOUR whole shift, she would not be. She would have to start her log with a 7 day "log" of some sort, but if she has been in the passernger seat, she SHOULD log that time on line 4. Hence, her 14 hr clock would probably be used up... or mostly.

As for her getting "off the truck" and you continuing on with a restart: Don't people quit or get fired while on the road? You sign your log as being truthful. If it IS... you have little problem, especially if she can prove she was there by producing her own logbook. But, your question was about you doing a 34 hr restart while the truck was moving. Well.... if she is still with you, her logbook would show that she drove 11, took 10 off, and drove another 11, and had been off duty an additional 2 hours before YOU came back on duty. Since SHE had to stop the truck and take her 10, you can show coming out of the sleeper for that time too. You just can't show being out of the sleeper while she is driving.

Sorry, my new puter cut me off and submitted my reply before I was ready. But, I think I covered it mostly.

If you know you are about to need a restart, put her to bed for at least 8 of the last 10 or 11 that you drove. If she does that, or SHOWS that, she can legally drive while you sleep. If the truck is moving, you must show sleeper. When she stops for a 10 hr break, you can both do what you want. When she drives again, you must show sleeper while the truck is moving, but it doesn't have to be in 8 hour or 10 hour increments. If she stops the truck for an hour or more, you can go to line 1 and go have dinner. You just have to show 34 hours in a combined status of line one and two.

There is no reg I know of that says you can't do a 34 hr restart in a moving truck. She doesn't need to keep a log until she becomes a driver. Then she must account for the last 7 days (on one log sheet) and more importantly.... her last 10 hours.

You sound like a conscientious driver, so I know you wouldn't feel safe with her driving 11 hours after being UP the 10 before in the jumpseat. Play by the rules, be safe, and I think you would be "legal."

BTW.... last I heard, the FMCSA is considering a change to that rule about having to log line 4 while in the passenger seat. If good sense prevails, they may change that to show that being in the jumpseat is the same as "resting" in an off duty state. You would need to log 10 hours of it though.... not just the 8 hr minimum in the sleeper.

If I have not been clear, let me know and I'll find the regs and make the argument. If she is on the dispatch paperwork, she'll have to keep RODS. However, they could show 24/7 on line 4 if she wanted to as long as she showed 10 in the sleeper (or off duty in one location) before driving... and she didn't go over HER 70 hour rule. (not on the paperwork, she should STILL log it as she did it for the 7 days prior, and make sure she shows the last 10 in the sleeper if you are "operating" the truck.

I don't think the DOT would believe she was off duty for 7 days prior at (insert home terminal location) and then magically appeared in Salt Lake City when you needed her to drive. Nor would they believe she spent 7 days in a sleeper of a moving truck. But, she can't show line 4 for all the hours YOU drove, or BOTH of you would be out of hours. Have her show at least half of your driving shifts in the sleeper.... and of course.... the 10 hours prior to her driving while you reset.

And, for safety sake.... play by the rules and make sure she is rested before driving during your "rolling reset."

I believe this is a correct interpretation of the rules. If you, or anyone else, questions it.... I will do some research. If not..... enjoy!

Hobo

Oops, one more thing. It IS the business of the DOT what YOU were doing during your restart. YOU, as a driver, cannot spend your 34 hours in the jumpseat. You would have to show ALL your hours in the sleeper or off duty while SHE is shut down for her 10. i.e: 11 in the sleeper while she is driving, then 10 on line 1 while she is also on line 1, then back to the sleeper while she drives. UNLESS..... of course.... you have hours coming back under the 70 hour rule that would allow you to take over the next day without taking a 34 hour restart.

I agree with your assertion about the regs being developed primarily around the idea of a solo driver, but in this case, I think you either don’t understand the full point I’m making or you have chosen to ignore it. While my situation might be less common, it certainly isn’t unique, and I believe that it allows me and those who are in the same position as me some special latitude with certain areas of the FMCSA regulations.

As president of the LLC whose authority I operate under and as individual owner of the truck I drive, I may have a little more leeway in deciding when I am a driver or a passenger or a co-driver than, say, a company driver. There is nothing in the regs or guidance I know of that would prevent me from relieving myself of all responsibility for the load and equipment and having another driver, my wife, specifically in this case, take over responsibility for everything while I enjoy the ride for a day or two. At this point, I would be a simple passenger along for the ride in my own truck. I think, as does the one DOT officer I have already mentioned in a previous post, that this is a way for somebody in my uncommon situation to legally circumvent the ridiculous rule you have already referenced regarding being in the passenger seat while the truck is moving. As I have also previously stated, this would allow my wife to be a passenger at will as well, and also avoid the inconvenient mandates about what line she must log on depending on her choice of seat as a “co-driver”. The only caveat the DOT officer had about this arrangement was that while she wouldn’t personally have an issue with it, other officers might and that it might help my cause with a skeptical officer if we were to never both drive in the same day. It is her opinion that avoiding doing so would add weight to my assertion that we are each solo drivers and not a tam.

Went through something similar last year in a compliance review audit. If she is the employee of the carrier(you)then she must log the prior 7 days before operating the vehicle. You need to have complete logs for her for the prior 6 months. If she performs any compensated work for anyone she must record those hours. If any of those 7 days were in the truck you would log as a team.(A rider permit is not required for an employee of the carrier.)
In my case the wife went with her husband once in a while and would finish off his round while he was at home. The auditer wanted to see lines 1,2,&4 on her logs and line 3 when she finished off the load.

She wouldn't be an “employee” in the strict legal sense. She's on the truck title with me and is an officer of the muti-member LLC that holds the authority we run under. Yes, she maintains a CDL, and yes, she has a personnel file, and yes she participates in our random drug testing program. Of course if she drives she would have to have logs covering the previous seven days. I still maintain that she could show off duty on those logs, even if she were in the truck for the previous seven days because she was not serving as a driver at that time. Once she drives, I think an argument could be made that she would then have to keep a current log for the rest of the trip.

All of this is purely up to the interpretation of the DOT officer, of course. Would you believe the Illinois state DOT officer who is my auditor told me that because we are officers of our LLC and we personally own the truck and also drive it, we weren’t required by law to keep a written record of pre-trip inspections? I took one look at him and told him he was insane if he thought I’d get away with that if I got inspected in some other states. He said that very well may be true but that didn’t make those officers right.

Because right or wrong is unfortunately subjective out on the road, I probably won’t ever do what I’ve suggested here. It’s not worth the headache and expense of defending a citation in court; but I do believe it makes for interesting and stimulating debate.

Employee is a carrier definition.(it's in the regs) If i get a chance i'll look up the reg that shows if she is in the truck she would have to log either line 2 or 4. When the feds do a compliance review they will help you determine the correct action if you have questions. DOT at scales often use there own interpetation.

Wow - I'm thoroughly confused now... LOL

Now that I've tried to clear everything I just read from my brain, here's what I would do:

Assuming you own the truck and have a legal right for your wife has the legal right to not only ride as a passenger as well as drive on occasion:

While riding as a passenger, keep a multi-day log showing the start/end date & times with "Off-duty Passenger" in the notes. When she's not in the truck (at home), keep a multi-day log stating this as well.

When she WOULD be driving, she would then create a 'normal' drivers log for that period. Once she's finished driving/on-duty operations, go back to the "Off-duty Passenger". This way, any DOT officer would have a better understanding on what you're doing and it would take very little explanation for them to understand.

Also, as a 'safety', I would have her log an 8hr sleeper berth prior to coming on-duty. This is to cover your asses just in case.

I'm not taking any of this from any regulations, but it makes sense (at least in my pea-brain).

After reading this thread, I'll chime in what I think would be appropriate.

My first question was if she had a qualification pack w/ drug and alcohol testing, but you've cleared that up.

I'd have her always keep current logs, even if at home for the simplicity of not having to scramble in the event of an audit.

You would be listed as primary operator, and she would be the co-driver. That definition (co-driver) can be murky, but I don't believe in your situation that her driving duties need to be paid.

When she goes on duty for driving purposes, I'd play it safe and log a strict continous 10hr sleeper berth prior to driving (and legitamite). The rest of the time, I'd assume that all time in the passenger seat could be logged off duty as you're driving but would not count towards a 10 hr break should she decide to drive, and that is based on what saftey has told me at my carrier.

As far as her showing up to drive in another state 1000 miles away to drive...that is legal 100%. However, in the event of prying eyes, they would investigate how she got there (airline travel, ground travel via train/car, hitched a ride, etc). I've done this several times with other drivers in a situation where I have flown them back to our home terminal. I've also been flown back to my truck to team with other drivers.

Hopefully, I didn't miss your point and question, musicman.

I do have a teaming question- If a driver wants to do a 34 hr restart, can he/she break a 34 hour sleeper berth? Example- logging 30 min off duty when the primary driver stops for a meal?

Musicman said:

I assure you that I understand all your various and numerous points, and am not ignoring any of them. I've been constrained by my new computer and the fact that I can't seem to access the FMCSA site while on the road. Obviously, you didn't find my original opinion satisfying, so... I've done my research and am ready to go.

And I said as much in my original response... though you weren't clear on your ownership situation. I checked the regs pertaining to carriers (which you are) and couldn't find much that wasn't covered under the regs for drivers. From what I can tell, it wouldn't matter if you were J.B. Hunt himself... once you take the wheel, you are just a driver. However.... BEFORE you (or your wife) takes the wheel, you can do much of what you are wanting to do. Most of the points I made had to do with what happened after she started driving, and most of that still stands.

There ya go! Like I said.... have her show 10 hours off duty (sleeper berth if you are still driving) before she starts driving at whatever "destination" you determine that she will start driving at. It's really ALL about the rest period just prior to driving. This also shows that her entire "trip" would be OFF DUTY once she has been afforded (and logged) a 10 hr "rest period." Put her in the sleeper 10 hours before she drives. That would be SAFE and LEGAL.

If you (and/or her as the "carrier") have deemed that she is not required to be ready to work, or under any responsibility for work, this sounds like she can log OFF DUTY. Here's what I would do: If you know you are going to need a 34 hr reset, then at the location you start driving for your last 11 hours or whatever, have her create a 7 day log showing off duty up to that location. Then, as she is now on notice that she will need to drive, have her show the next 10 hours in the sleeper. Once she takes the wheel, she will have proof that she had 10 hours "rest" before taking the wheel.

I don't think they mean to exclude airplanes or even trucks. The point they have continuously made is that, a driver cannot go on line 3 "driving" without an immediately prior "rest period." I didn't bother quoting it, but the regs also say that driving your POV to the point at which you will be dispatched is also OFF DUTY.

I agree. I know the regs don't address it accurately, but... I believe the term "co-driver" is contingent on a situation where the truck could NOT have covered the miles without another driver taking over every time you go into the sleeper. If your logs show the standard driving time, and comparable MILES of a solo driver, it would be clear that she was not a co-driver.... up to the point that she becomes one. At that point, she DOES become one, and must show RODS for the last 7 days. However, since she was relieved of all responsibility to perform "work," she can log all that time as OFF DUTY (except for the last 10 if the truck was moving.)

I WISH I could say this also applies to you, and it MIGHT.... but, I'm just not sure. Once she takes the wheel to keep the truck moving, and you have already driven X number of miles and hours, I believe YOU would fall under the definition of a co-driver. The "intent" is clear. So, as I said earlier.... YOU should log all time in the sleeper EXCEPT the 10 hour breaks she has to take. I didn't say you had to BE in the sleeper. Since YOU cannot log part of your reset in the passenger seat, you MUST log all time that the truck is moving in the sleeper. When she stops for her 10, you can log line 1 and do whatever y'all want to do until she starts driving again. Just make sure that your 34 is a continuous combination of off duty and sleeper that coincides with her RODS. I know you want to relieve yourself of all responsibility during that time and be a "rider," but I don't think you can get away with it. That would be the one thing that would trip you up at a scalehouse. FWIW.... I think you SHOULD be able to as long as YOU show the 10 hour rest period before driving again. But, I think you have already established yourself as the "driver" for the dispatched load, and the regs do not allow a "driver" to work 70 hours without a "defined" 34 hr restart.

I don't think it matters whether or not you swap days. As a solo driver, you cannot show a 10 hr break and then start driving again 600 miles down the road. THAT is prima facia evidence of a "team operation" and evidence that you are "co-drivers." By the same token, I don't see any reg saying that you can't take a "rolling reset" as long as SHE is the only driver during that 34 hours AND you show sleeper when the truck is moving, and off duty when it is not.

You would like to relieve yourself of all duties/responsibilities and be a "rider" during that time, but once you start driving again... you are subject to all HOS regs concerning a driver, and right now they say you can't be in the passernger seat and be off duty (during your last 7 days.)

Now, to further confuse the issue... Much of this depends on the definition of ON DUTY as the REV and I argued about ad infinitum. I believe you read those threads on alcohol and OTR??

The REV contends that #4 intends that even when OFF DUTY, you are ON DUTY if you are in/on the truck. I contend that the opening sentence differentiates between being on or off duty, and the list applies ONLY to activities or status when ON DUTY. IF you have been relieved from work, and all responsibilities, then the definitions of on duty do not apply. If I'm at home for a restart and I choose to drive up to the yard and get in my truck to retrieve some stuff I left in there, I am not "in readiness to work," have not BEGUN to work, and am still in a state of being relieved from work.

My opinion is bolstered by the fact that the regs allow you to drive an "unladen" CMV to walmart while you are off duty and log it as line 1. You are obviously ON the truck, and in fact are driving it. But, because you have been relieved of duty... it doesn't qualify as anything on the list of "on duty" activities/definitions.

However, the guidance for this reg mentions "short distances." That is why I don't believe you can consider yourself OFF DUTY while the truck is making "paid miles."

As to some other comments made by other posters:

I don't believe your wife needs to keep logs for months of off duty time. WHEN she drives, she needs to have the last 7 days (probably on one log sheet) AND show the rest period just before driving. The "retention" reg for 6 months of logs does not say it requires every day of the last six months. It says you must retain ANY actual logs of driving time during the last six months.

It doesn't matter if she gets PAID for the time she drives. The regs say you must log any time "worked" whether paid or not.

Yes, B.C.... you can interrupt a 34 hr restart as often, and for as long, as you wish... as long as it is only for line 1 time (and the truck is not moving.) A restart must be an "uninterrupted" COMBINATION of line 1 and 2 for 34 hours.

Now... I MAY not have answered your question to your satisfaction, but... I've done the best I can with the confusing mess of regs that we have to deal with. The regs don't clearly define a co-driver, because they consider us all as DRIVERS when it comes to HOS, etc. Being the owner of a truck (or company) does not relieve you of the requirements for rest prior to driving, nor the 70 hour rule. However, you might try looking at your options under the 70 hour rule... getting some hours back.... that might preclude you actually NEEDING a 34 hr reset.

As usual, Hobo, you did a wonderful job of pointing out the ridiculousness of the regs. You however, did neglect to mention and cover Line 5 in your dissertation. :)

What? I get NO CREDIT for answering your questions? Have I failed again? :lol:

Or, is it that you just don't LIKE my answers? I would agree that the regs are confusing, cumbersome and even sometimes contradictory at first blush. But, I don't thnk they are totally "ridiculous." When you interpret them with the understanding that their underlying purpose is to ensure that you are rested before and while driving... it is not so hard to understand them. If they say you can log off duty while making a short run to the beer store, after being relieved of duty for the day, then they can't mean that ALL time at the controls, or driving, or ON THE TRUCK, must be logged as ON DUTY. If they say you can transport alcohol in the truck during these short trips, (and the beer is not on the manifest,) then... alcohol is not ALWAYS prohibited on a CMV. The difference is the "in operation - in interstate commerce" clause. Line 4 of the "On Duty" definition cannot apply at all times if you can drive short distances (or an unladen CMV) without being subject to line 3 of the same definiton. Definition 3 is dependent on def 1. [You still WITH me?]

Now... can your wife drink beer in the passenger seat while you drive and she is legally "off duty" prior to being "in readiness to work?" NO! Because it's not on the manifest and the vehicle is "in operation in interstate commerce." But, once you are "relieved of duty" for the day, you can be IN or ON the truck (defintion 4,) AT the controls and driving (definiton 3,) and be transporting, or in possession of, alcohol (found in the guidance) without being in violation of FMCSA regs.

WHY??? Because you are on LINE 5! :lol2:

Now... does THAT cover all the bases? :moon::clap:


On a side note, from a personal perspective: I deliver FedEx ground freight from terminal to terminal. When I get to one at say... 7 p.m., and am told to check with them at 7 in the morning, I consider myself relieved of duty per definition 1 of the on duty reg. Am I waiting to be dispatched... on company property... yes. But, not really... since they've given me a time to be "in readiness" to work. I bobtail to get dinner. I sit at the controls if I want to. I can't "service" my truck... but, I can do pretty much whatever I want and consider it OFF DUTY. I am NOT restricted to my sleeper! But, once we are dispatched and under a load... I am subject to every one of the definitons of the ON DUTY reg... regardless of which of us is driving.

The REV is wrong.... I am right! Case closed. :lol2: