You assume that carriers will pay more for working less. I don't think that will happen. Taking an hour away from a driver's workday will not result in him getting a bigger paycheck. Drivers are mostly paid for the miles they drive. Taking an hour away from his workday means that he will drive fewer miles that day. Fewer miles equals a smaller paycheck. If a driver can average 60 miles per day and his pay is only $0.30/mile then he will lose $18/day. For 5 days that is $90/week or over $4,500 less that he will potentially earn in a year. If he can drive faster then he might make up the loss of income. He would need to average more than 65 mph to earn the same money before the loss of time. He won't be able to do that. Driving for a major carrier, he will likely not have a truck that is capable of driving faster than 62-65 mph. Just because something sounds good on paper doesn't make it better.

Who demanded to be paid less? That would have been the drivers. The drivers gave away all the hourly pay and almost all of the bonuses (that paid for professionalism and quality work) to get more cpm. The result is that nothing matters to the drivers but the mileage pay. This means that for years they have made their worktime disappear and have shown almost nothing but driving hours and the rest they eat.. and have the audacity to then complain that they don't get paid for hours that they themselves "prove" don't exist by falsifying their logs. Meanwhile, the companies get paid for all of the stuff the drivers now do for free... win win for the companies and the shippers.. drivers only demand to be able to work longer for free to get out on the highway where the "big money" is..

I assume that you are referring to detention pay. Carriers don't usually get paid for sitting unless it is called for in the contract they have with the shipper or consignee. They are usually paid by the mile or load. Most will pay drivers detention after a certain amount of time has elapsed, providing they collect detention from the shipper or consignee. They usually don't pay for at least the first two hours.

What I assume is that we've all gotten soft. I've been checking my local craigslist since the beginning of the recession and there have been jobs available all along. It's mind boggling the number of people that have lost their homes due to lack of a job and otr trucking still pays pretty well and they aren't the least bit interested. Being away from home for days and weeks is too big a price to pay for being financially solvent I suppose.

Whether it's EOBRs or DOT cutting our hours I don't think we'll see a cut in pay. In fact, I think our pay is going up regardless. The softer America gets the better it is for people who are willing to work.

I agree, but only if we are allowed to work.

The drivers never see the contracts now do they?

70 hours in 8 days isn't enough?

Now see....IF detention started on arrival....or at least at the scheduled appointment time......there would not be "Unpaid" driver time. Instead of telling a company that they can hold a driver for 2 or 3 hours unpaid.....the industry standard should be....the truck arrives ontime at it's scheduled appointment....truck and driver get paid.

When a driver is forced to sit at a shipper's location or a consignee's location, for hours on end, with out remoneration (for those whom don't understand....that means PAID), THAT is unpaid wages. If the driver is unable to go and do as driver sees fit, as is always the case at either facility.....the driver should be collecting a wage. That does not happen....and it does not happen because of the way that FLSA was worded in 1932.

If the driver logs all of his or her time at a shipper's or consignee's location "Off-duty".....then the carrier is not obligated to pay the driver one red dime (nudgenudgewinkwink), yet...if the driver does log all that butt time as "On-duty".....then that driver is labeled "Un-cooperative" and is starved out, because that driver's HOS make him or her unavailable for that next load....cheap as it may be.

The FLSA is what makes corporations fairly compensate it's workers (yes..union bargaining does to an extent as well).....yet allows corporations to short pay "Truck Drivers". The FLSA statute that covers "Truck Drivers" was worded with all that high dollar "mileage pay" in mind......again...........IN 1932!!
FLSA needs to be changed just as much as DOT HOS doesn't.



end of rant

I would not say never, but in most cases you are correct. When drivers work on percentage, they are usually allowed to see the rate confirmation.

I think that one reason some of the major carriers want EOBR's on their trucks is to document reasons for being able to bill for sitting time. It would certainly change the paradigm if shippers and consignee's had to pay the truck from the time they arrived or bumped the dock. The carriers who have been willing to allow shippers to waste their time should have the intestinal fortitude to push for pay for sitting. Instead, they want the government to do the work for them by forcing everyone to have to go out and buy EOBR's for their trucks.

There is little need to look for work or take a job when you have your unemployment benefits extended again and again. One problem is that some people refuse to consider anything outside of their current field or area of expertise. If you don't have any money coming in you are much more likely to take what you can get to put food on the table. There are not as many people who want to work, but many who want a paycheck.

There is truth in what you say. But not 100% percent of the time. Compassion for those that truly need the unemployment insurance as well as the particular phase of the boom/bust cycle (need for stimulus) that we're in atm trumps what you're saying imo.

As for EOBRs, if we put it in supply and demand terms...

Let's assume the demand for drivers is unchanged going forward (we know that's false coming out of a recession, but what the F).

As one news article after another is pointing out, the expected supply of drivers is expected to drop sharply thanks to drivers retiring and/or having CSA2010 problems. The thing the articles that I've read aren't talking about is the lack of interest among "civilians" in becoming an otr trucker.

Supply and demand. The supply of drivers is falling and demand is steady = wages will rise. Now if the fmcsa/dot people cut our hours by 10% we'll get about 10 % less work done each week and that will boost demand for truckers by about 10 %. If EOBRs are mandated and we get another 10 % less work done each week and that will boost demand for truckers by yet another 10%.

Supply of drivers is going to get hammered while demand is increasing and we should make considerably more per hour. Will we make more per week? Yup, that's my 2 cents worth of opinion (but I wouldn't bet the farm, the rich and their Republican puppets in congress have been sticking it to blue collar workers for 30 years and, well, you know... I've found that firmly grasping each kneecap when I'm bent over helps prepare me for what's about to happen).

The democrats have been "sticking" it to the working man just as much as any of the republicans. It isn't a party issue, it is money and power. Democratic tactics are merely a little different, but just as corrupt.

Historically, when demand for certain types of labor increase to the point where not enough natives can be found to do the work, industry has gone outside the country to recruit workers. The American railroad industry is a good example. Industrialists brought in Chinese workers to do manual labor and they helped build the railroads, especially in the western U.S.

At other times in history, workers have been brought in from other countries. If there are problems finding qualified drivers then carriers will go to Mexico or other countries to find workers. Tyson and other U.S. companies are already bringing in workers from Mexico to work in their processing plants. Most Americans either have no interest or have other work they can do. Tyson needs workers so they can get a waiver to bring in workers. Most likely there are many who are not brought in legally.

If it gets to the point where a sufficient number of drivers cannot be found, then you can expect carriers to go outside the country to recruit drivers. That may already be happening. Pay could rise temporarily, but when people who are brought in from outside the country we could actually see an over capacity, which would lower demand and wages. This industry will adapt to a changing labor market. Competition has kept rates and labor rates lower than they probably should be based upon past wages after factoring in inflation.

There it is, right there.

So I was typing in my little ditty thinking I had a pretty good handle on it and when I got to the end it hit me. I couldn't put me finger on what, but I knew something was wrong. A blue collar industry like trucking suddenly experiencing higher wages 30 years into the Reagan Revolution? I realized I had to be missing something and your post lays it out with 20/20 vision. Good post! :thumbsup:

I am the same. That is why I use the 8 and 2 split quite frequently. I use the 8 for actual rest time and I use the 2 later on for dock time or awake and out of the cab personal use time. Sure not like the old split sleeper, but it does work ok for most of my time.

The government is SUPPOSED to do a lot of things, but they don’t, do they?

You just have to remember that government’s involvement in our industry is NOT, I repeat NOT about safety. It is ultimately about appearing to the general voting populace to care about their well-being. It’s about votes, power and money. That is why OOIDA does not have close to the influence that the ATA and other larger, much better funded organizations do. It has been an undisputable fact for some time now that in truck versus car accidents the car is at fault the majority of the time. That being a fact, if it was truly about safety, wouldn’t the government be concentrating on making regulations that more strictly control POV (personally owned vehicle) traffic? They don’t do that because it would affect more VOTERS that way. John Q public would never understand that he is at fault in most of these accidents and therefore have to have EOBRs in HIS vehicles to limit HIS driving time or speed limiters that would make it impossible for him do drive over 65 mph.

I have read and re-read THIS and the other thread about the EOBR's until I am nearly blinded. I usually pick a post to "dissect" and opine on, but I can't find the right one to DO so. So, for what it's worth, I'm gonna start from scratch.

As always, I have done my research. I just finished reading the NPRM in the Federal Register for the NEW ruling.... every word of it. For the record, my comments in the "other" thread were made BEFORE the current proposal filed in January of this year. It makes reference to the 2010 ruling that I commented on, and yes.... it DOES "propose" mandatory EOBRS's for ALL CMV's that aren't subject to timecards. [which I believe is unconstitutional and flawed in its concept and basis.]

The "Lamar bill" apparently died in committee last year, but seems to have been revised in the CURRENT Congress (112th) though I saw no link or connection to that bill. But, what THEY were proposing HAS become the basis of the NEW NPRM on EOBR's.

"Woodie" was ahead of us all when he asked for info to help him compose a "comment" within the timeframe....which has expired. I believe his request for info on how to "cheat" the system was SOLELY for the purpose of DEBATING the efficacy of the bill.... NOT for the purpose of cheating the system. His safety record speaks for itself! I am sorry that I wasn't in a postiion to HELP him sooner.

But, there will be another comment period IF the NPRM becomes a proposed final ruling. I DO intend to make an argument if that happens. I found MANY contradictions in the rationale for the ruling.... and it should be NOTED that the government (as always in these cases,) is PREFERRING a different stance than the one they feel compelled to take.... they just NEED facts and opinons to consider for the "defense."

In researching the subject, I found that REAGAN started this crap, Clinton furthered it, and... as always... the MOST damage was done by our friend Dubya! [Seriously.]

But the whole thing is not as bad as many THINK it will be. Even GMAN will have 3 years AFTER June of 2012 to install such equipment. And even THEN, he could get a waiver if he asks for it!

As always, this is much to do about nothing... in a way. Through competition, the costs should come down to about that of a good GPS system by then, and there SHOULD be some savings if things work out right.

I actually LIKE "Woodie's" idea of a "graduated safety exemption" for those companies (especially small ones) that have good safety ratings, and I believe this is one of the major points that could be considered in the final ruling.

And, though Fozzy is being his usual "antagonistic" self, he has made some very important points. Like Sheepdancer, Twilight, and a few others, HE is apparently employed in a different capacity in the trucking business than those of us who are drivers or O/O's. But, it should be encumbent on the rest of us to LISTEN to him.... and consider his knowledge and opinions in OUR personal debates before forming our own opinons.

This is NOT about Constitutional Rights... (and it IS a "living document,") and I don't believe it is ALL about "the money." But, sometimes it is good to follow the money.

But, after reading the entire proposal, it is clear that ALL of your concerns have been considered. I just don't agree with ALL of their conclusions! But, if anyone thinks it is all Obama's fault, you're an IDIOT. And if you think the government shouldn't have ANY role in regulating THIS particular part of commerce, you must also think that polluting the air your children breathe, and the water they drink, and the water in the gulf of Mexico is INCONSEQUENTIAL! And THAT makes you an idiot.

And I am beginning to lose patience with IDIOTS. ;):lol:

/rant off. I'm busy all of a sudden. Carry on! :lol2:

Good post golf dude.

I started off in this thread being in favor of Woody's fight against the electronic doodad that will no doubt make us all crazy. The more I thought about it though, the more I became convinced that company drivers are allowing themselves to be taken advantage of and this electronic thinginabob might save us from ourselves.

I need saving from myself as much as the next guy. I like to keep bosses happy. There's just something about a paycheck magically deposited into my bank account each week that warms me right down to the cockels. So if I need to bend the rules just a little to get a load there on time, I'm a "team player", so I'll do it. I remember the times the boss let me go quite a few miles out of my way to visit an old friend or some other favor so I'm a "team player" and I do it.

EOBRs will stop that kind of give and take and that's a bad thing (computers in general are bad that way!). But me and most other company drivers do a lot more giving than taking and so I think they will be a net benefit.

EOBRs and the HOS changes are coming when there is upward pressure on truckdriver's wages. At least the timing is good. Maybe shipping costs will rise just a little and everyone smiles. (at least until Gman's prophecy of imported labor comes to pass) lol

One thing that will truly suck though is when the EOBR causes you to spend an extra day on the road just because you would have gone a lousy 10 minutes over. That will happen to just about every one of us at some point and it will be a rage against the machine moment.

[QUOTE=golfhobo;496528]The "Lamar bill" apparently died in committee last year, but seems to have been revised in the CURRENT Congress (112th) though I saw no link or connection to that bill. But, what THEY were proposing HAS become the basis of the NEW NPRM on EOBR's.

I believe the new bill is Bill 3884.


But, there will be another comment period IF the NPRM becomes a proposed final ruling. I DO intend to make an argument if that happens. I found MANY contradictions in the rationale for the ruling.... and it should be NOTED that the government (as always in these cases,) is PREFERRING a different stance than the one they feel compelled to take.... they just NEED facts and opinions to consider for the "defense."

I hope most drivers will take the time to file a comment when the final rule comes down.

In researching the subject, I found that REAGAN started this crap, Clinton furthered it, and... as always... the MOST damage was done by our friend Dubya! [Seriously.]

I don't recall what Reagan did other than making the changeover to the CDL. At least I think it was under Reagan. I don't recall what Clinton did other than NAFTA. That was enough. I do remember that Bush made our CDL's transparent where anything that we did in a personal vehicle was visible on the CDL. Bush wasn't a friend to this industry.

But the whole thing is not as bad as many THINK it will be. Even GMAN will have 3 years AFTER June of 2012 to install such equipment. And even THEN, he could get a waiver if he asks for it!

If this does become law, I will probably wait until the last minute to spend my money unless I decide to retire or do something else before I would have to install a EOBR. I don't see them giving away waivers once this is passed. Still, it would be worth a try.

As always, this is much to do about nothing... in a way. Through competition, the costs should come down to about that of a good GPS system by then, and there SHOULD be some savings if things work out right.

Hopefully, the cost will come down with time. Perhaps I should invest in stock of companies who will be making these EOBR's.


I actually LIKE "Woodie's" idea of a "graduated safety exemption" for those companies (especially small ones) that have good safety ratings, and I believe this is one of the major points that could be considered in the final ruling.

A graduated system makes much more sense than a blanket rule which forces everyone, regardless of their safety record to install a EOBR.

This is NOT about Constitutional Rights... (and it IS a "living document,") and I don't believe it is ALL about "the money." But, sometimes it is good to follow the money.

I think one could make a Constitutional case out of this. It is done all the time with other issues. I do agree about following the money.

But, after reading the entire proposal, it is clear that ALL of your concerns have been considered. I just don't agree with ALL of their conclusions! But, if anyone thinks it is all Obama's fault, you're an IDIOT. And if you think the government shouldn't have ANY role in regulating THIS particular part of commerce, you must also think that polluting the air your children breathe, and the water they drink, and the water in the gulf of Mexico is INCONSEQUENTIAL! And THAT makes you an idiot.


QUOTE]


I would not want to blame Obama completely. He is an idiot, but I don't necessarily think that he is totally responsible for what is going on in this industry right now. But, it his appointment that is pushing this legislation. I really don't think that government has a right to force owners to put EOBR's into trucks and I don't see how this and pollution have to do with one another.

It's any wonder how we ever made it as a country when we had NO unemployment insurance, NO social security, No medicare, No medicaid, NO welfare, NO WIC programs, No FEMA for disaster relief, etc. And it wasn't all that long ago as far as the age of the country is. Most of this came about shortly before and after WWII, with the largest portion of government "aid" actually not starting until the 60's. Guess that is why they called the people before all of this stuff the "greatest generation". Now we expect the government to always be there for us like a perpetual baby sitter. We all bellyache about government intrusion into our lives, yet when things are not the way we think they should be, we holler for the government to come to our rescue.

Oh well.

Dont start that crap again! Why cant you come up with something original rather than repeating something you heard from an Ayn Rand worshiper?
There are not enough jobs to go around, even if everyone took any job available there would still be unemployed people. Unemployment?? i was unemployed for a month and i havent seen a dime yet, but if/when i actually get something it would be $246/week...so what do i pay? rent or buy food? hmmm...starve or be homeless, yes i love these options, i think I'll just be unemployed forever and live the high life!

So dont give me that **** Gman. Contrary to the neo- conservative mantra, repeating a lie over and over does not make it the truth.

Pretty sure the $318/wk I can get on unemployment won't come within a C-hair of what I make while working. Sure, I'd rather sit around on my ass doing nothing, but the bills say otherwise.

I don't need to listen to anyone to see what is going on. You liberals always want to go on the attack when you don't have a basis of fact for your point of view. You assume that the majority of us can't think for ourselves because we don't share your tainted view of the world. We just use common sense. I know thast there are areas of the country that are more depressed than others. However, I have seen with my own eyes those who will work long enough to get unemployment and then quit so they can max out their unemployment and repeat the cycle. I don't know your specific situation, nor am I saying that everyone who collects unemployment will not pursue gainful employment, but many will not look for a job as long as they have a check coming in where they can buy a few cigarettes, beer or drugs.

I have had a local state employment office call me over the last several years and ask if I have hired a list of people who state they had applied for jobs. Most of them I had never spoken with, much less interviewed. These people are riding the system. They must demonstrate that they are trying to get a job in order to keep their unemployment benefits coming in. There are thousands of driving jobs that are not being filled. Other industries also have jobs available.

Often jobs are available, but not in a field or the pay that the job seeker wants. When you are not working any job is better than sitting at home. It isn't a lie when you confront the facts.

I just saw a video on another board where a tanker truck passed a car on the right hand shoulder of a four lane interstate. How is an EOBR going to stop this behavior? These types of behavior are more dangerous imo than someone over his hours by a few minutes.

Computers are good tools but once again man abuses everything he gets his hands on.
You can't mandate safe behavior.

There isn't any real system that can deal with people doing things completely and criminally stupid. BUT that being said, it is the realization that these things happen that cause all of the decent, hard working drivers being subjected to more and more monitoring or even what amounts to babysitting. The type of behaviors that you describe at some point in time ends in catastrophe. When that eventually happens.. if the driver is lucky, he ends up wiping himself off and simply leaving the company to ply his idiocy somewhere else. The company is stuck with everything relating to the stupid behavior. Companies cannot afford many of these and the costs of these accidents make the costs of monitoring systems completely warranted. The rest of the drivers concerns about their own level or safety or professionalism becomes irrelevant.

Just a note, I just started the elogs here at celadon and suprisingly, I have no issues with them. I haven't lost time, usually I actually gain time. Yeh, it sux if I'm cought in traffic but where I would travel an insane amount of miles and logs might contest it, now it's on record and nothing to contest and the joy of hitting a button then forgetting about it is actually pretty nice. One other thing, those scales see elog on the side of the truck and usually just wave me on by :D

U got the elogs already, eh? My 'number' hasn't came up yet.

actually you might hit me but I put my own name on the list. was in indy one day and just walked over to logs and asked them if there was an opening.

Actually if you are still well within your 14, the traffic congestion issue isn't that big of deal either. If it stop and go kind of jam up, when you stop, just select on duty. Sure, you will be still using hours up, but not your driving hours. With the system that is in my truck, it will kick back to driving after 1.2 miles or above 25 mph. But at next stop in the jam, I select on duty again. You can save quite a bit of driving time that way. If your driving time is already competing with your 14 duty time, then it really makes no difference, and doing this means nothing. But you do have 3 hours in that 14 to play with. Me, personally, if I was going to be stopped for a long period, like waiting for accident to be cleared out of the way, I would just select off duty.

My carrier put one in my truck last December, and like you it has had a minimal effect negatively on me. I even had a couple of my best months in the last 3 years this year while using the EOBR. Go figure.

that's true copperhead. I think the reason your best months are since is becuse the company don't have to ask you for hours you have left, they look at what the elog says and plan acordingly. I can say the same here, since they gave me the elog I've knoticed more load stacking since they know prety close to how many hours I have left.

The program may let u do that, but legally u cannot be off duty while sitting still on the interstate- or at a shipper..

While technically true, after 3 decades in this game, I am not going to lose any sleep over such technicalities. I show roughly 10 min on duty at unload, load, or drop and hook. If I am going to be stopped for anything more than 5 min, going to OD or sleeper. I have endured numerous FMCSA audits over the years and never been cited for one log violation, on paper or EOBR. Just had FMCSA do an audit on my logs at the company a few weeks ago.

You have to keep in mind, that with so many nuances to the regulations, that they cannot spend time looking at every detail of the regs like you can. There is just so many enforcement personnel and so many hours in a day. Case in point, I hardly ever give the annual truck check 72 hr thing a minute of my time. I keep my stuff in order and I have not been pulled in for one of those blitzes in over 12 years. Haven't had any roadside or scale inspection for over 4 years. Point is, the odds of any enforcement person zeroing in on minute details such as whether I was legally on or off duty at a shipper, is so remote. Worrying about it is not worth my time. They would have to prove that I was not legally off duty when I said I was. Most of my customers do not document times on B/L and I do spend some of the time there not doing any work related to unloading or loading. So, for any FMCSA person reading this, if you want to waste time on the obscure chance you might find a minute or two in error.... have fun.

there is no amount of regulations that will stop people from doing stupid things. EOBR's have nothing to do with that. The argument is not valid.

do your eobr's record your speed every 30 seconds ,over here trks pay in advance road user charges ,bout $2000 in advance for 5000ks trk 3000ks trailer (logging rig piggy back trailer)sum have eroad system which sounds like ur eobr's ,automaticly updates RUCS but also tells boss your speed and times'no doubt cops have hackers that hack into system to watch you .legally they have to get warrant to check office computer

The systems that I have experience with record everything in real time, Hackers are not necessary.. The LEOS can audit the records the same with any logging system. If an incident comes up, the driver can record the event or some recorders will record the incidents automatically. Some systems have build in accelerometers that activate a "save" of the data should the system think that its been involved in an accident or even an unsafe act and save the seconds that precede and follow the event that triggered the save. This record shows all sorts of information (this is basically a black box like the air industry uses).

Along with the EOBRs for logging, there are other systems that companies are using such as; Drivecam The Driver Safety and Driver Productivity System | Driver Risk Management (check out the videos) and Green Road GreenRoad | Delivering the best drivers on the road This is the system that we use currently.

The QC in my truck activate an 'Event' if my ABS activates for any reason. It's fun on ice, even when there's no 'Event' other than losing traction for a split second.