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Hours of Service VS. Running illegal
I recently got off the road and wanted some input about the following:
Under the Hours of Service: As i understand the rules, it clearly states i have 14 hours of "total on duty" hours to work with the minute i go to line 4 to do my pre-trip. I finish up a run 1 hour prior to my scedule delivery time (being between 5 to 8am). Running illegal: After making the delivery, i sit around at the most of 7 hours, then expected to make another pick up and delivery before 5am the next morning with a "supposed" 11 fresh hours. I read the safety regulations book over and over, it clearly states that i have 14 hours to work with in a 24 hour period. Here is the catch, it does not state anywhere in the green and white book about pulling over to take a 10 hour break. It merely states that i have 14 hours to work with in a 24 hour period with a 10 hour break. Can the Department of Transportation legally fine the driver for violating the hours of service when it clearly states in the rule book that you can still drive after you ran out your 14 hours? |
As i understand the rules, it clearly states i have 14 hours of "total on duty" hours to work with the minute i go to line 4 to do my pre-trip. I finish up a run 1 hour prior to my scedule delivery time (being between 5 to 8am). ?395.3 Maximum driving time for property-carrying vehicles. Subject to the exceptions and exemptions in ? 395.1: (a) No motor carrier shall permit or require any driver used by it to drive a property-carrying commercial motor vehicle, nor shall any such driver drive a property-carrying commercial motor vehicle: (a)(1) More than 11 cumulative hours following 10 consecutive hours off duty; or (a)(2) For any period after the end of the 14th hour after coming on duty following 10 consecutive hours off duty, except when a property-carrying driver complies with the provisions of ?395.1(o) or ?395.1(e)(2). I read the safety regulations book over and over, it clearly states that i have 14 hours to work with in a 24 hour period. Here is the catch, it does not state anywhere in the green and white book about pulling over to take a 10 hour break. It merely states that i have 14 hours to work with in a 24 hour period with a 10 hour break. Can the Department of Transportation legally fine the driver for violating the hours of service when it clearly states in the rule book that you can still drive after you ran out your 14 hours? Now if you had turned that 7 hours of sitting into an 8 hour sleeper berth break you could have qualified for split sleeper logging and possibly been able to log it legally. |
As i thought, i did read through the book (section 395) more times than i can count and came to the same conclusion, Rawlco.
However, the Owner/Operator stated that i cannot drive solo because they claim "to be babysitting me". Which is a crock, because of several reasons: 1: The Owner Operator drilled me like a drill seargent for every bit of info about my availble hours, where i am at, what i am doing. I cannot even pull into a rest area to use the little boy's room without him knowing about it. 2: He also wanted me to drive 16, 18, possibly over 20 hour days to make a delivery that will not deliver till the next afternoon some 600+, under 660 miles away. When he wanted me there the next morning at percisly at 0700. 3: i know i can drive my 11 hours out, however, i do not like sitting around 7, 8, up to 10 hours in the middle of the day when i am wide awake. |
Now if you had turned that 7 hours of sitting into an 8 hour sleeper berth break you could have qualified for split sleeper logging and possibly been able to log it legally. I believe that when they changed the hours of service rules, the split shift became illegal. Once you come on duty after a 10 hour break, you have 14 hours to complete your on duty time. So if you take an hour break in that time, it counts against the 14 hour time you are allowed to work for your "duty tour" but not against the 60/70 week. |
A common misconception chapchap70. Any break less than 8 hours is counted against the 14 hours as you described, but an 8 hour break has special rules:
The regulations regarding split sleeper berth time are listed in section 395.1 (g) available at http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regul...mcsr/395.1.htm For a truck that is equipped with a sleeper berth a driver (g)(1)(i)(A) Must, before driving, accumulate either (1) At least 10 consecutive hours off duty; or (2) At least 10 consecutive hours of sleeper-berth time; or (3) A combination of consecutive sleeper-berth and off-duty time amounting to at least 10 hours; or (4) The equivalent of at least 10 consecutive hours off duty if the driver does not comply with options (1), (2) or (3) above. (g)(1)(ii)(A) The term ?equivalent of at least 10 consecutive hours off duty? means a period of (1) At least 8 but less than 10 consecutive hours in a sleeper berth, and (2) A separate period of at least 2 but less than 10 consecutive hours either in the sleeper berth or off duty, or any combination thereof. Now that you have your 8 hours in the sleeper and another 2 hours off duty how do you count your 11 and 14? This is where the government made it complicated. First we have this rule: (g)(1)(i)(D)Must exclude from the calculation of the 14-hour limit any sleeper berth period of at least 8 but less than 10 consecutive hours. Then comes the key to figuring the hours: (g)(1)(ii)(B) Calculation of the 11-hour driving limit includes all driving time; compliance must be re-calculated from the end of the first of the two periods used to comply with paragraph (g)(1)(ii)(A) of this section. (g)(1)(ii)(C) Calculation of the 14-hour limit includes all time except any sleeper-berth period of at least 8 but less than 10 consecutive hours; compliance must be re-calculated from the end of the first of the two periods used to comply with the requirements of paragraph (g)(1)(ii)(A) of this section. |
From the FMCSA site.
http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regul...s/hos-faqs.asp G-3. How does a driver who is utilizing the sleeper berth provision calculate his or her compliance with the 14-hour rule? A sleeper-berth period of at least 8 consecutive hours is excluded from calculation of the 14-hour limitation. All other sleeper berth periods are included in the 14-hour calculation (unless part of a sleeper-berth/off-duty combination of 10 or more consecutive hours). Rawlco, One can (mis)read the sleeper berth provision as being able to drive 9 out of 11 hours, take two consecutive hours off, restart the 11/14 hour clock, drive another 9 hours, then take an 8 hour sleeper berth break. This would mean a driver could legally drive something like 18 hours out of 22 before having to take an 8 hour break. I don't understand why they didn't make it simpler by just making an 8 hour sleeper berth provision. The question/answer above says nothing about the two hour part of the sleeper berth provision. If I am reading the provision right, an OTR driver can drive something like 5 out of 6hours, go off duty for 2 hours, drive another 6 out of 8 hours, then take 8 hours off in the sleeper berth. I think the 2 hour provision can extend the 14 hour "duty tour" time like in my example to 16 hours provided that the driver spend at least the next 8 hours in the sleeper berth. The split shift option is no longer available for local CDL drivers that would extend the "duty tour" beyond 14 hours. (16 hours once per reset period) I think it used to be legal for say a cement truck driver to go to a job for a morning shift, take a few hours off duty, then work an evening shift. (Edited to correct fuzzy math) |
Originally Posted by chapchap70
One can (mis)read the sleeper berth provision as being able to drive 9 out of 11 hours, take two consecutive hours off, restart the 11/14 hour clock, drive another 9 hours, then take an 8 hour sleeper berth break. This would mean a driver could legally drive something like 18 hours out of 22 before having to take an 8 hour break. .
(g)(1)(ii)(C) Calculation of the 14-hour limit includes all time except any sleeper-berth period of at least 8 but less than 10 consecutive hours; compliance must be re-calculated from the end of the first of the two periods used to comply with the requirements of paragraph (g)(1)(ii)(A) of this section. I don't understand why they didn't make it simpler by just making an 8 hour sleeper berth provision. The question/answer above says nothing about the two hour part of the sleeper berth provision The split shift option is no longer available for local CDL drivers that would extend the "duty tour" beyond 14 hours. (16 hours once per reset period) If I am reading the provision right, an OTR driver can drive something like 5 out of 6 hours, go off duty for 2 hours, drive another 6 out of 8 hours, then take 8 hours off in the sleeper berth. I think the 2 hour provision can extend the 14 hour "duty tour" time like in my example to 16 hours provided that the driver spend at least the next 8 hours in the sleeper berth. To continue your example you take an 8 hour sleeper berth break from 2 to 10 pm. Your 14 hour clock starts at the end of the previous break or 8am and excludes the 8 hour sleeper break so the next 14 hour period ends at 6am day2 and you can accumulate 5 driving hours between 10 pm and 6 am. I am afraid that I have made a mess of these instructions not presenting them in a logical order. I urge you to visit another thread that I wrote that is easier to follow I think. click here I'm not trying to make it complicated, honest. :lol: |
I have to agree with Rawlco here, Chapchap70.
When you take 2 hours out of 10 on line 1 (off duty), you must take the remaining 8 hours on line 2 (sleeper berth) consecutively, i.e. in 1 block. The 2 hours of off duty counts against your 14, but the remaining 8 on line 2 does not. |
It makes sense to me, somehow I was using the last break to calculate when to restart the 14 hours. If I ever go OTR, I'll call you. But like you said, they probably will have changed the rules again. :roll:
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Man, it was so much easier with the 10/8 BEFORE they decided to re-regulate it all! Sure, we get an extra hour to drive... but two extra hours we have to rest! And the 14 hour thing is confusing as all get out!
It was much simpler before... now I spend my HOS trying to figure the HOS out! |
Originally Posted by chapchap70
It makes sense to me, somehow I was using the last break to calculate when to restart the 14 hours. If I ever go OTR, I'll call you. But like you said, they probably will have changed the rules again. :roll:
They are in the process of attempting to make changes to the new HOS as we speak. For so many years, we didn't have changes and things seemed to work just fine. Now, it seems that they change every year. That is the problem when you get crazies like MADD and others who know nothing about this business dictating policy and rules. What they have really done is make trucking less safe by their uneducated interference. I think we need to throw the logs away and treat this job like any other. Most of us will stop when we get tired. Those who push the envelope will do so with or without a log book. These people who are pushing their own policies on us fail to understand the facts. :? |
This seems to be an industry wide "historical re-write" of the facts. The fact is that the drivers in their infinte "wisdom" and as they have always been claimed to be "powerless" to stop the "evil and insideious" trucking companies, shippers and receivers "allow" them to work legally and safely. It's been the same old song and dance since I've been in the industry. They complained and complained and vented their spleens to anyone and everyone who would listen. Finally, someone did. The drivers finally got the government involved and they started (with company backing and cooperation) did federal sleep depreavation studies as it related to trucking using ACTUAL drivers as their test bed. The results proved that the old HOS were the WORST thing in the world physically for the human body. Looking around at most drivers would prove that :P . They FIRST instituted a 14 hours off schedule!!!! They settled on the plan of 14 on/10 off that it finally became. The DRIVER'S demanded that the rules be changed.
The problem is that just like the abused wife syndrome, the truckers saw the cops show up on the doorstep and instantly went into "he abuses me but I love him" act and the die was cast. The supposed abuser saw this happening and started advertising their support. The numerous VERY fatal crashes and the MADD groups and the unions made the change over easy. The problem is that like GMAN stated, those who will run illegal will run illegal no matter what. Those of us who will not, will not. |
Originally Posted by Rawlco
I don't know where it "clearly states" that you can drive after your 14 because it doesn't. 14 is 14 no matter the circumstances. If you go over the 14 you are in voilation and probably could be fined. 395.3, 395.1 |
Originally Posted by palidian
Originally Posted by Rawlco
I don't know where it "clearly states" that you can drive after your 14 because it doesn't. 14 is 14 no matter the circumstances. If you go over the 14 you are in voilation and probably could be fined. 395.3, 395.1 |
Which is why I prefaced my explanation with the words:
For a truck that is equipped with a sleeper berth a driver. . . |
to sllep or drive or write in your log book.
I am in my second week of trucking school.
The first time they showed me this LOG thing, I said I knew there would be something I didn't like about trucking and this is it. |
Hate to break it to ya Ragoolie, but BS happens.
I like the 10 hours of off duty time for the simple purpose that us, the drivers, can get out of the truck longer and relax in a truck stop (depending if they have a lounge for drivers). I hated the old "15 hours of on-duty" and the "8 hours in the sleeper" for the simple purpose that it made me more tired than the current hours. If you add the old hours up, i.e. 15 and 8 = 23 hours With the current hours, 14 and 10 = 24. How can you get any rest with the old hours when you want to get out of the truck for 4 or 5 hours? You have to be a very light, and i do mean "very light" sleeper to get less than 5 or 6 hours sleep/rest. |
Originally Posted by chapchap70
From the FMCSA site.
http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regul...s/hos-faqs.asp G-3. How does a driver who is utilizing the sleeper berth provision calculate his or her compliance with the 14-hour rule? A sleeper-berth period of at least 8 consecutive hours is excluded from calculation of the 14-hour limitation. All other sleeper berth periods are included in the 14-hour calculation (unless part of a sleeper-berth/off-duty combination of 10 or more consecutive hours). Rawlco, One can (mis)read the sleeper berth provision as being able to drive 9 out of 11 hours, take two consecutive hours off, restart the 11/14 hour clock, drive another 9 hours, then take an 8 hour sleeper berth break. This would mean a driver could legally drive something like 18 hours out of 22 before having to take an 8 hour break. I don't understand why they didn't make it simpler by just making an 8 hour sleeper berth provision. The question/answer above says nothing about the two hour part of the sleeper berth provision. If I am reading the provision right, an OTR driver can drive something like 5 out of 6hours, go off duty for 2 hours, drive another 6 out of 8 hours, then take 8 hours off in the sleeper berth. I think the 2 hour provision can extend the 14 hour "duty tour" time like in my example to 16 hours provided that the driver spend at least the next 8 hours in the sleeper berth. The split shift option is no longer available for local CDL drivers that would extend the "duty tour" beyond 14 hours. (16 hours once per reset period) I think it used to be legal for say a cement truck driver to go to a job for a morning shift, take a few hours off duty, then work an evening shift. (Edited to correct fuzzy math) |
14 hour rule
The easiest way to figure your 14 hour!
After a 10 hour break (lines 1 & 2 combined) once you enter lines 3 OR 4. Count over 14 hours on your log clock (should be at the top of the log grid) make a mark. DO NOT DRIVE PAST THAT MARK UNLESS YOU HAVE AN 8 HOUR SLEEPER BREAK! Once you get to that mark you can not DRIVE! You can be on line 4 all you would like, but don't drive again until you have completed a 10 hour break. LINES 1,2, 3 & 4 Count against your 14 hour. In the 14 hour period you can NOT DRIVER OVER 11 HOURS. There is no rule that allows you to drive past your 11 or 14 to find a safe place to park! You can only drive past your 11 hour if you run into unexpectad Weather, Accident Un forseen situations! Home issues etc. is not a reason! DOT says plan ahead 2-3 truck stops to get your break before your 11 & 14 is up! My easiest way to put it without referring to this or that! :D |
Re: 14 hour rule
Originally Posted by Dawn
The easiest way to figure your 14 hour!
After a 10 hour break (lines 1 & 2 combined) once you enter lines 3 OR 4. Count over 14 hours on your log clock (should be at the top of the log grid) make a mark. DO NOT DRIVE PAST THAT MARK UNLESS YOU HAVE AN 8 HOUR SLEEPER BREAK! Once you get to that mark you can not DRIVE! You can be on line 4 all you would like, but don't drive again until you have completed a 10 hour break. LINES 1,2, 3 & 4 Count against your 14 hour. In the 14 hour period you can NOT DRIVER OVER 11 HOURS. There is no rule that allows you to drive past your 11 or 14 to find a safe place to park! You can only drive past your 11 hour if you run into unexpectad Weather, Accident Un forseen situations! Home issues etc. is not a reason! DOT says plan ahead 2-3 truck stops to get your break before your 11 & 14 is up! My easiest way to put it without referring to this or that! :D |
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