CSA 2010, you guys need to see this...
 

I have been looking at these new regs coming down, and they do not look good.

I would start here, there are interviews with a few companies and info on how you as a driver will be scored, yes you. Interviews within the Industry on the CSA 2010 FMCSA Mandate

This is some very scary stuff, and will cost quite a few their CDL and or businesses.

Start on the left side bar and work your way down, pay particular attention to how you as a driver will be scored. And your scoring will start in 2007, not 2010. CSA 2010 FMCSA New Carrier Rating System Measured by 7 Behavior Analysis & Safety Improvement Categories

Read the above and start asking questions. It may just save your job. This looks very serious and not to be taken lightly. I think I would rather have a black box in my truck, and I am squeaky clean but I can see the potential for some serious abuse here to both drivers and carriers. No one will escape.

Another blog, read this one too... RMR CONSULTANTS

I am so glad I sold my equipment and got out of this racket. Man this stuff just curls my toenails.

Prediciting there could be 175,000 drivers decleared "unfit" that are currently employed.

I wonder how many even realize how serious this could be? I'll admit I clicked on the link in the other thread, but didn't get into it very far. I took more time to look into it this time, looks pretty damn serious.

Instead of just your company getting a saftey score(currently) you as a driver will recieve a score and it will follow you from company to company and will be used in a carriers evaluations for hiring.

If you are declared "unfit" you will not be allowed to drive until "points" come off your driver score.

Your score can be impacted by carrier items such as burnt out lights and brake issues among other things. Speeding and HOS violations will have a bearing on your driver score, also even warnings for moving violations will negatively affect your score as will any type of accident whether preventable or not.

This is great news. The 175,000 "drivers" who have exhibited poor safety decisions will be reigned in or forced out of the industry and the rest of us will have less competition, more freight, higher rates. The fact that a poor driver can't simply change carriers and remain a safety risk is a big plus in my view.

Jim

which would be true if you knew that only poor drivers would lose their jobs, but I can see where this will turn out badly for many undeserved safe drivers.

I doubt it will work that way. History shows us that immigration will be the key to filing those seats. Immigrating company drivers and elimination of cabotage laws allowing foreign drivers to move freight point to point within the US, Canada and Mexico.

I don't see it that way, as from what I have read, the questionable drivers will be the very first to go. You did not read that CSA2010 does not start a driver at "0" points. They go back 3 years on your driving record at its implementation. So, if you have 2 points on your record and one log book violation or warning, you are already on the radar when all of this kicks in and have points on your record. Even if you are struck by a vehicle, and are deemed not at fault, you will be scored as if it was your fault as it reads now. There are all sorts of little rules like this in the new regs. We will be punished for things that are not even in or under our control as will your carrier.

Like I said in another post, I could see this turn into a nightmare if one was to run into the wrong DOT cop. The whole driver and vehicle inspection routine has been "updated" to look for every, and I mean every little thing only a bureaucrat could think up, and the driver is just as liable as the carrier. And you know as well as I do, if you have been in this racket for any amount of time, is that a DOT inspection taken to extremes can find all sorts of things wrong, even on newer vehicles and seasoned truck drivers. Look at the section on log books in the regs, all sorts of stuff to nail a guy on with some heavy penalties.

There is even an driver fatigue section, read that one, it is completely off the wall and up to the discretion of the inspector as to your fatigue level. Do you have a TV in the truck, cell phone, etc., as these can all be used against you in judging your fitness level no matter what your log book or on board recorder shows. This has abuse written all over it, even for the best of driver.

I would not be so flippant about these new rules, especially if you think it will only target the "bad" drivers, as it sure does not read like that to me.

From the FAQ's:

#

How will CSA 2010 address the issue of non-preventable crashes?

FMCSA is developing a protocol for determining crash accountability for fatal and non-fatal commercial motor vehicle crashes under CSA 2010. The goal of developing the protocol is to only include crash records where a carrier was shown to have some level of accountability for the crash event.
#

Does crash preventability factor into anything? Will the new system improve crash data or will industry be assessed on same poor data?

FMCSA has this on its radar and a team working on the issue. As results come in and decisions are made, information will be updated for industry.
#

The crash BASIC references accident accountability. Does this mean that the accident report will be reviewed to indicate who was at fault?

The structure of the new SMS is such that crash accountability is not automatically determined or considered. Consequently, motor carriers are identified for possible intervention based on recordable crashes without consideration of accountability. However, FMCSA is considering several short- and long-term approaches to address this issue, which will be presented for public comment and consideration. The short term approach would require that crashes be evaluated by an FMCSA or State safety specialist during an investigation before crashes would be counted in a motor carrier’s formal safety fitness determination. The longer term approach would filter out "non-accountable" crashes so they would not be considered by the new SMS for identification of carriers for intervention. Approaches to determining crash accountability for safety fitness determination purposes will be detailed in a forthcoming notice of proposed rulemaking for formal public comment.

This is the key sentence, "Consequently, motor carriers are identified for possible intervention based on recordable crashes without consideration of accountability.".

This negates everything said prior, because the bottom line with this new system is the points which lead to intervention, not who did what.

That is why I hate these scoring systems, as it does not tell the whole story. I have been through this before with SAFER regarding an accident. Some how a guy with my same last name had a non fatal accident up in Chicago that resulted in a tow, he worked for Dana Trucking or something like that, but his incident wound up on my SAFER because we shared the same last name. It took me a year to get that off of my SAFER record but my score was screwed, that was never fixed. Then I had three of my drivers screwing up/off, which was two weeks of hell for me, nothing serious, just mistakes a rookie would make on their paperwork and the loading of a truck (over axle) that all resulted in tickets. If you have ever had drivers, you would know what I mean, no matter how good they are or years under their belts, stuff still happens. When it rains it pours.

We can nit pick and parse this all we want, but the bottom line is that this is some very serious stuff that could really hurt a good driver or a good carrier for a long time. We cannot all be perfect with the law 24/7, and if you say different, you are only fooling yourself.

Mike3fan mentioned above how this new system will follow a driver from company to company. Do any of you know who will be in charge of that? It will be DAC, and yes, I know that they now have another name US someting or other.

Now how many stories, true or not, have we heard from drivers regarding how DAC and carriers have abused this system over the years?

And how soon will it be until the insurance companies get ahold of these records? If you are a carrier, small or large, who is the first person notified when a new driver is looking to be hired? Most of the little guys will say their insurance company... Will they let this new guy drive my truck, because they have the ultimate final say. Each insurance company is different, mine would not allow me to hire a driver unless he had at least 3 years driving with no breaks in their employment history from the date of hire. Some are 5 years and some are 1 or 2 years and will be factored into your rate/premium. And then we have the points, my company was 3 points or less, some are 2 some are 5. How will they handle this new system? If a guy has logging troubles but is great driver with no traffic incidents, will his logging screw ups be held against him? Or that tail light wiring problem that he always flagged but was never fixed, will that follow him in regards to getting hired on somewhere? Great driver, but works for a company that can't keep up with equipment repairs. And with this economy, there are allot of companies out here that are down to making those minor repairs or pay the driver. Not the drivers fault, but the driver will be held accountable according to the new CSA rules, which is not right in my book.

See where does all of this take us as drivers and or carriers?

It is not ordered throught DAC/Hire Right. You order from FMCSA/MCMIS. I don't know how to put a link in but the address is HTTP://mcmiscatalog.fmcsa.dot.gov
Your crash data is already on record for employment through many other options.

As of now you are correct, but from what I read in the coming year this will change. DAC/Hire Right, will be handling all driver records for employment purposes through the fed. And I wonder, will carriers of all sizes be required to sign on/up with DAC? I looked at them when I had drivers and trucks, and the costs were pretty high for what my insurance company was able to do for what I already paid for in my insurance premiums.

And that is why I asked about what roles our insurance companies will have in all of this? Will they be the new DAC/Hire Right clearing house for carriers when they hire a driver? Which is basically how it is now, the insurance company has the ultimate say in who gets hired. So this may be a good thing or a bad thing, it will depend on how DAC/Hire Right handle the records and will there be any recourse for a driver to dispute information on their records? The way all of this reads, and my past experiences with SAFER, I would say it would be very difficult for a driver to make corrections to their driving records. And remember, there is much more that will go on these records then just simple driving violations.

So if DAC can provide the reports later why is that a bad thing? It's an effective system for driver information. Far better than written reports that can say almost anything the previous employer wants to. How do you verify past performance when they are out of business?
There is no regulation requiring you to use any service,only what must be verified.

I am not saying it is bad or good. I do know that many have accused DAC or past employers of really screwing up their records. How true this is is anyone's guess.

As far as being out of business? Are you referring to DAC? They are still around, they just run under a different name. Dac is like Kleenex is to tissue. Or if you are speaking of companies that have closed their doors and no longer can be contacted, yes, a system like DAC is a good thing.

As far as using a service, that is why I was asking if our insurance companies will handle the driver clearances or will another system be implemented to check on drivers. I don't know, as I always relied upon my insurance company to pull records and such.

There are allot of unanswered questions here, and if I were a driver or a carrier I would want to know how all of this is going to work and what effects it will have on everyone involved in this business.

If I were a company driver, I would ask the boss some hard questions along with doing my own research. It is hard enough to make a decent living in trucking the way things are right now with the economy, along with all of the spending and uncertainty coming out of Washington these days. I would be covering my back and telling others to read this stuff and ask questions.

Look, I don't have a dog in this fight, as I hung up my trucking hat. But, I can see trouble brewing here, and thought that it would be a good idea to start a discussion on what all of this entails. As I have yet to see any serious discussions anywhere on this subject. The last thing we need in the coming year are more employment shocks or businesses closing their doors due to the government screwing things up like they are prone to do.

Just remember, "it's for the children"...

I wonder what percentage of these drivers that are "supposed" to lose their jobs already work for marginal carriers? The new regulations do not "suspend" a driver,only put a rating on them. The low pay,don't care carriers will still hire them just as they do now.

If you read the regs, a driver can lose his CDL at some point if he has to many points. And a carrier can lose his authority too if to many points are accumulated. I think this will put many of those guys out of business rather quickly. Remember every scale house in the country will have your number.

I would say though, that in the big picture, it is pretty even across the board, just because of the way this rating system works. And the fact that it will be retroactive for the prior 36 months for drivers and I believe 24 months for carriers. Violations that have never been counted are now going to be counted against the driver and carrier, including warnings. Log book violations being one, just a few over a period of time can really put a driver and a company in a bad spot.

And how will these scores be rated? How many points before a driver is deemed unemployable? And remember, the carrier points for equipment go on the drivers record too. I have yet to see anything on that. My example of not putting a shipper or BOL# in the remarks section of their log book can cost a driver a minimum of 6 points or even 12 if another one of the rules is used for an incomplete log. That is 12 points right off the bat for not having this info on ones logs. Now lets say some of the reflective tape on his trailer is there but not up to the DOT man's expectations, that is another 9 points. This driver just racked up 21 negative points against him and the carrier. I could go on, but you get my drift. It would be nothing for a driver and carrier to rack up points rather quickly for what amounts to a whole lot of nothing.

What is the proposed regulation # that that shows disqualification of the driver?(other than what is currently in place)
For the carrier it is not much different than now. At least it will put all carriers on an even field. Quite a few carriers now have never had a CR inspection. A new entrant doesn't count.

6 points for the tail light, and 4 points for brakes? That's real safety.....

I made a phone call... And spoke with Steve Kessler over at the CSA2010 website, and this is what I learned.

The 175,000 number came from one of the carriers that are under investigation under the new CSA rules. The 175 number is said to have come from a CSA inspector as to the results of what they have seen so far in the "numbers" that have come out from the seven state test period. So, take the 175,000 number for what it is worth, but these investigated carriers are already firing drivers under the new rules. And if you are a driver or a carrier, don't poo poo this 175,000 number, as this gets interesting as the points can add up rather quickly, especially if a carrier has an accident. Remember that x 3 multiplier.

Intervention in regards to drivers will take place when they reach a score of 90.

Intervention in regards to carriers will happen when they reach a score of of 72.

Again, the negative driver scores go right to the carrier, say you have 400 trucks, how long do you think that it will take to hit a score of 72 and fall into an intervention? An intervention that may cost you thousands of dollars if you are a carrier and force you to fire a few drivers. What the heck, cash and good drivers are real easy to come by, no? (sarc)

We spoke on quite a few things, and the bottom line was, that this was less about safety and more about control and revenue collection.

I'll get back later with the rest of the story as it was quite an interesting conversation.

As the scoring is based on the number of power units/drivers there is no difference between a carrier with one truck or a thousand. Again it would put everyone on the same level. Under the current rules it is nothing to see a carrier with one or two trucks that have an OOS rate of 50% or higher with no CR audit and a low(pass) ISS. If a larger carrier even approached anywhere near that number there would be a high(inspect) ISS and an audit.
I have yet not been informed of the regulation that results in the suspension of the CDL for these points. Only the carrier termination of the driver(voluntary)if it fits their employment guidelines.

This could be a nightmare. any d.o.t inspector can issue bogus violations. I have only had 2 in 11 years, but it can happen. the last one, I was pulled over in a 45 m.p.h. contruction zone on i-65 & the d.o.t did an insp on the shoulder. after 45 min he wrote me up saying that some of my reflective tape on my trailer was faded. it was in august 2 p.m bright sunny day. he patrolled that area & by looking at my log book, I told him I am dedicated on this stretch of hywy & I will have new tape put on in a matter of an hour & I will be traveling this interstate twice a day every day. he could pull me over & check me anytime. just give me time to comply. no deal. now for anyone who says I was in deed in violation. your right. but the officer can use discrection. he was going to find something no matter what. i.m.o.

I am not going to worry too much about it until I receive something from the feds. This is something that has been in the works for some time. While I don't welcome any more federal interference I would like to see some of these bad drivers moved out of this business.

[QUOTE=GMAN;465877]I am not going to worry too much about it until I receive something from the feds. This is something that has been in the works for some time. While I don't welcome any more federal interference I would like to see some of these bad drivers moved out of this business.[/QUOTE


I too would like to see the bad drivers who give us all a bad name. though the bad drivers & the d.o.t can deal with each other. what I would like to see first, is the rate cutters gone.

From my discussion this was still a gray area. But, drivers in the test states were already being terminated. And this is where the insurance companies come in, what will be the least acceptable driver score before an insurance company steps in and says no, this driver has to many points? At that point, you may as well pull the guys CDL for at least a year or more. My point is, is that this scoring system is so open to abuse, and then throw in the 3 x multiplier for that first year... We shall see, hopefully it will not be as bad as it looks, but this is the government and they are here to help...

Justruckin said:

I hesitate to give my 2 cents on this subject cuz we all know what usually happens when I do, but.....

First off, we ALL do realize (don't we) that this Steve Kessler does not work for some "CSA2010 website" as there is none officially that I know of. The site all this info is coming from is provided by a company called Vertical Alliance Group, INC. ...... which is SELLING A PRODUCT by stressing (if not hyping) a few minor changes in the way the FMCSA and the DOT will monitor safety data on companies and "eventually" their drivers.

I do not mean to "diss" the O.P. as he has obviously invested alot of time into researching this topic. And, yes..... I DID read pretty much the whole website before speaking up. I appreciate the info that there is a change coming..... but, nothing I read made me think that there was a MAJOR sea change afoot.

Well..... not exactly. As there ARE NO NEW RULES yet until this becomes effective "by the end of 2010," any firings are in preparation of and for the purpose of cleaning up their driver pools BEFORE they find themselves in a costly situation.

Also, 175,000 drivers.... out of the estimated 3 million on the road.... is about 5%. So.... the absolute WORST 5% of drivers out there (who have managed to elude the truth for far too long) are being/will be "found out" and weeded out as a result of a more efficient method by the agency tasked with monitoring who can drive a CMV and who can't. Like others here..... that sounds okay by me.

Did he get the impression that you COULD be a "consumer" of his product? Selling someone on the COST SAVINGS of one's product (while creating a negative impression of the "stated" goal of the competition or government) is one of the major tactics in sales. [As is using "planted" testimonials.]

I'm sure it was, and I'm sure you will.

More reliable and impartial information/links MIGHT change my mind.... but, for now you can list me as a "poo pooer."

Here are the points:

CSA 2010 Violation Severity by Numeric Weight Charts

It's interesting because if you get four "light burnt out" tickets(6 points) within 6 months (3X multiplier) your CDL is suspended.

Is this directed at ME?

As I said.... I've already read ALL that info. Actually, I have YET to find the numbers of 90 and 72 points listed on that site. (I'm not saying they aren't there... I must have missed them.) However.... I didn't MISS the part that said that you CANNOT equally apportion the points assessed on ONE category across the board. I.e: 6 points for a light out is NOT the same weight as 5 points for a false log.

I REALLY don't want to get into a discussion of this info that approximates my analysis of the FMCSR's.... but, SOME people are misreading MUCH of the info on that site.

No not directed at anyone. I couldn't find the points earlier and I looked for a while.

Okay, I've been off the site a bit lately and missed the other thread. I see there IS an official government site, and I have now read MOST of IT.

My opinion of the "private sector" site has not changed. I will be looking more into the FMCSA site. I have already noticed ONE important aspect of it as it concerns drivers. Really, not much has changed.

I need another year before i can get out of this stinky business once and for all. Am getting tired of it each and every day. That will be one less safe driver feds dont need to worry about.

triple ditto on that! you hit the nail right on the head! :lol:

There is really nothing wrong with the current rules. If I remember correctly crashes involving big trucks is down so I don't see the need to make further changes in the system.

not trying to be a dick here but...if a driver does his job and checks his lights..brakes..etc. while at the same time run a legal logbook and drive close to the posted speed limit. change a headlight when it goes out..as soon as safely possible, etc. then there should be nothing to worry about. wanna be a cowboy then there will be trouble. the way i see it...nothing is changing.

i work for a small company that has a terminal in milwaukee, but i'm in madison. my truck gets thru the yard probably once a month, and this company has -1- spare truck. we have to replace our own spare parts shipped over from milwaukee, and it usually takes an act of congress to get in for service. they would drive over their own mothers before deadheading us to the shop. i usually go to milwaukee by way of preston mn if i need service just so i can bring in a load.
I wonder how many companies operate like this? something like these new rules could break them 1-2-3.

Every thing has to go out sometime. you do pretrip & all is o.k. you drive 200 miles in bright daylight. over the 200 miles a side marker light, or other light goes out. maybe cause it it time to go out, or maybe cause of all the pot holes in the road. but it does not work now. only you dont know it, cause it worked when you checked. a D.O.T. pulls you over for a road side insp & when checking your lights, find's the one that is out, you get wrote up.

I think that their time would be better spent if they concentrated on the things that would actually be a safety issue, such as brakes, air leaks, etc., I think that one reason, other than money, that these people are doing this is due to driver neglect. There are simply too many who don't take the time to properly check their equipment. From a company standpoint, when a driver has failed to check equipment it is something that the company has had to deal with. Now it is more of a shared responsibility issue. Drivers will be forced to be more conscientious about their assigned equipment or find another career. I think that there are good and negative aspects to these new rules.

I'd have to agree on that. Light could go out, while you are walking from the back to the front.

Well there's a lot to read......maybe I need to find a job working at a truck stop....if you see an old man cleaning toilets wearing a swift hat and t-shirt it might be me.

Just a question for ya there Chief, when do you think lights and headlights burn out?

That is where the d.o.t. gets ya. they know EVERYTHING has to go out at some point in time. they just hope to catch you between the time it goes out & the time you are aware of it. weight, speed, any traffic violation, I will be responsible for. but a side marker light ,that went out during transit ? & I have spare to put it & the d.o.t. stills write's me up? maybe the law, but is not right. still not sure if this csa 2010 will hurt or help me.