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Originally Posted by GMAN
I am sorry that I misunderstood, Graymist. I know you would like a concise answer, but there are still some variables. You can earn a good living as a company driver. The nice thing about being a company driver is that you can forget about the business when you go home. If you own the truck, there always seems to be something which needs to be done. On the other hand, the opportunity exists to earn more as an owner operator. Notice I said the opportunity exists? I have seen owner operators do well and others lose their shirts. If you want to become a successful owner operator, you MUST treat it as a business. Start by learning all you can about how the industry works while you are still a company driver. You won't know it all by driving a truck for someone else, but it can be a great learning experience. If you own the truck, that means that it is your responsibility to see that all maintenance is performed as needed and to pay for all expenses. It isn't cheap running a truck. The key is finding the right carrier. Personally, I could not imagine leasing to most of the mileage carriers. The rates are simply too low. However, they don't seem to have a problem finding people to lease to them. In most cases, you will earn more money leasing to a carrier who pays percentage. The majority of percentage carriers don't have forced dispatch. That gives you the opportunity to find the better paying loads. Most carriers have areas they run which have better paying freight than other areas. It takes time to learn their system and where the best freight is running. With a mileage carrier, it really doesn't matter where you run since you are paid the same rate regardless.
There are some owner operators who do well running with a percentage carrier and others who fail miserably. You can't always run only where you want to go. You need to follow the freight. That is where some owner operators get into trouble. They want to see a particular area of the country, so they take a cheap load to that area, then get stuck because freight is slow or rates are cheap. When you run on percentage you absolutely MUST have good rates. Good rates come from good freight areas. A driver is an employee. A owner operator is a businessman. With proper planning and hard work, you should do much better as an owner operator than a company driver. The percentages and income will differ according to the segment of the industry you are involved and experience. There are company drivers who earn from $80-120M or more. Those are not the norm, but those positions do exist. There are owner operators who only net $40M or less. Those are two extremes. I don't know the average income for all drivers, but I would guess somewhere around $40-60M, on average. I would guess the average net for most owner operators would lie somewhere between $50-80M. Again, there are exceptions to every case. I keep going back to treating this as a business. Some people are better managers than others. You can have 3 people who are owner operators and leased to the same carrier and each will have a different net. One final note. They type of freight you haul can significantly impact your income. a) in case of percentage loads, how does one ascertain the true value of how much the load is paying ? Are companies on the up and up with this information, or are they prone to showing a lower value out of which to pay the percentage to the o/o, in order to pad their own margins ? b) what kind of loads usually pay more ? I'm more interested in bulk hauling, as you may have gleaned from my posts and queries here....is hauling bulk lucrative ? |
Originally Posted by Graymist
Is it possible to be an independant carrier, but carry only Company X's loads as if one were an o/o leased with that company ? And, from time to time, haul for different such companies....say, for eg, 1 week with company x, the next week with company y, the following week back with company x, and so on ? By company, I'm referring to companies like Crete or Superior or Knight, for eg.
There are opportunities to contract with a specific broker or shipper for certain dedicated runs. Those are not the norm, however. I have also seen opportunities for power only to pull a specific shipper's trailers. Those are also not the norm. I would not expect carrier's such as those you listed to offer such opportunities where you can go from one to another. There are brokers who may have customers that may need a truck for a certain time to haul freight. I have a broker with whom I deal and haul freight. It is seasonal and may only last a couple of months or so, but the money is good. They have 2 seasons per year. Something such as I noted above has been needed by CH Robinson, etc., |
Originally Posted by Graymist
2 issues here, Gman....
a) in case of percentage loads, how does one ascertain the true value of how much the load is paying ? Are companies on the up and up with this information, or are they prone to showing a lower value out of which to pay the percentage to the o/o, in order to pad their own margins ? b) what kind of loads usually pay more ? I'm more interested in bulk hauling, as you may have gleaned from my posts and queries here....is hauling bulk lucrative ? I am not familiar with bulk hauling rates. The more specialized the hauling the higher the rate. Vans are at the low end of rates. Flats are higher, steps above those and RGN/double drops as far as open trailers are concerned. Car hauling is also on the upper end of earnings. There are those on this forum who haul bulk and other types of tankers who could best answer you concerning rates. |
Originally Posted by GMAN
Originally Posted by boneebone
What part of these are not the Gold Standards for all O/OP's did you not read? I said everyone's situation might be different, I didn't quote that these were the rules. There are exceptions to every rule and rules to every exception. When I use to live in California, apportioned base plates were $2300-$2500 a year which was what I paid 6 years ago. Insurance was $8000 the first year and jumped up to $9000 the second year, and that is with a perfect driving record, which I still have today. So my figures are not off. I am not going to turn this into a debate. As a matter of fact I do only pay about $60 a month for insurance being leased to a carrier, $3500 might have been a little high but I wasn't comparing any ones particular record. I was just making a comparison, that insurance is cheaper being leased to a carrier. So even if we change the leased to $720 a year vs. Independent which pays $4500 to $9000. It is still cheaper being leased to a carrier. Like I said, and I will say it one more time , Everyone situation is different and you can pick my post apart all you want, as long as you are happy doing what you are doing, whatever you do, and where ever your at, and whoever you are working for, isn't that's all that matters? As for being wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy off, I think not. The facts are the facts, and I tell it like it is. Drive safe. Boneebone, the figures you quote may have been what you paid, but they are not necessarily the norm. You made very specific statements about what owner operators pay or don't have to pay when leased to a carrier as compared to someone running their own authority. When you make specific statements and those are incorrect, you should expect those who know better to take exception. And just so you know, not everyone pays $8-9,000 for cargo and liability insurance. Some of us pay less, although others can pay more. A friend of mine just applied for his authority and I believe he told me that he is paying over $6,000 including collision or comprehensive. Those with little or no experience could pay a higher rate. He has a number of years experience but has never ran his authority. His rates will likely go down as long if he doesn't have any accidents or major claims. He will be getting his own base plates after paying for his own plates while leased to a carrier. I believe he told me that he will pay about $1,500 for his base plates. He lives in Virginia. Some costs can vary from state to state, where you run and where you base your truck. Most of the higher paying carriers do not pay the base plates for their owner operators. They may advance the money, but will take a flat rate out of each settlement check until they are reimbursed plus interest. It does cost more to run your own authority. Most of the higher cost is associated with cargo and liability insurance. Those costs can be more than offset with greater profits. Let's just say that your monthly gross while leased to a carrier is $10,000 and you receive 75% of the rate. If you run your authority you should automatically give yourself a $2,500 monthly raise. Even if you pay $750/month (9000/12=$750) in insurance premiums, you will still have $1,750 more in monthly income for the same number of miles. It comes down to how much you want to do and your level of expertise. There are additional responsibilities when you run your own authority. There are no guarantees. When you lease to a carrier you are actually paying for their cargo and liability insurance by being paid a smaller percentage. When you run your authority you have all the responsibilities and receive all the profit. When you lease to a carrier you receive a smaller percentage or mileage pay instead of all the profit. I am just quoting what I paid for these things living in California, That is one of the reasons I decided to lease to a carrier. Less headache for me. California is notorious for having the highest rates for just about everything. |
Unfortunately, California doesn't seem to understand the more regulations and the higher the taxes only serve to discourage companies from moving to the state. They have lost countless companies who have moved just across the border to avoid such high taxes and regulations. The sad part is that many states are following suite. They don't seem to understand that they don't need more regulations and taxes. They just need to reduce the size of their government.
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The guy who parks next to me is a triple crown o/o
(I am ex triple crown) He gets 1.06 per mile . 29 cpm surcharge loaded or empty plus 30 for every stop made plus 40 per hr after 2 hrs and home every night I have my own authority He makes more $$ than me at the end of the year I just like the freedom Don't be fooled All of a sudden everybody is making 2.00 plus per mile Everybody got their price when they sold their truck Everybody got a great deal when they bought their truck What a wonderful world!!!!! |
For the person who said that independents don't get detention and a whole bunch of other stuff that was not true, does not know what he's talking about. I get detention, I get paid for deadhead miles because I include those mile when I'm negotiating the rate. I have a certain amount that I will move my truck for based on my CPM. I run everyday and am home on the weekends unless something really good comes my way then I will run on a weekend. I run 18 states and pay $1,200. I get paid for detention time, I don't pay for lumper fees because I insist that the Broker pays for the lumper fee and I make them include that information in the rate confirmation sheet. If the Broker does not agree to pay for lumper fee then I do not take the load. I don't run toll lanes but do have access to Prepass, I don't pay full price for tires because I have two national accounts.
I analyze where the freight is within the states that I run and that is how I choose where to go. If you running a lane that is not a good freight area then you will sit or deadhead significantly to find a good paying load. If I don't want to work but a few days per week then it's my choice - I don't have to worry about making my dispatcher angry. It's all about the freedom and what kind of responsibility you are willing to take. You are responsible for you and how much money that you want to make and also how successful you want to be. |
Originally Posted by Joymax_Trans2
For the person who said that independents don't get detention and a whole bunch of other stuff that was not true, does not know what he's talking about. I get detention, I get paid for deadhead miles because I include those mile when I'm negotiating the rate. I have a certain amount that I will move my truck for based on my CPM. I run everyday and am home on the weekends unless something really good comes my way then I will run on a weekend. I run 18 states and pay $1,200. I get paid for detention time, I don't pay for lumper fees because I insist that the Broker pays for the lumper fee and I make them include that information in the rate confirmation sheet. If the Broker does not agree to pay for lumper fee then I do not take the load. I don't run toll lanes but do have access to Prepass, I don't pay full price for tires because I have two national accounts.
I analyze where the freight is within the states that I run and that is how I choose where to go. If you running a lane that is not a good freight area then you will sit or deadhead significantly to find a good paying load. If I don't want to work but a few days per week then it's my choice - I don't have to worry about making my dispatcher angry. It's all about the freedom and what kind of responsibility you are willing to take. You are responsible for you and how much money that you want to make and also how successful you want to be. Do you get a 10 to 12 cent a gallon discount on fuel? Analyzing the freight and this and that is too much work when drivers already have enough to deal with. I can turn down as many loads as I want and all the dispatchers I ever had never were angry, and if they were I really didn't give a s***. I do know what I am talking about because if you read the post and comprehended it fully, I said " These are not the gold standards for all O/Op's" and I unquote. My situation may be different than yours. |
Whatever, get your facts together before making blanket statements then maybe you won't get verbally beat up on. And yes, I read your long a.... post. Maybe your the one that needs to reread it. Go be a slave and leave us hard working guys alone to work as we please and live in peace.
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Originally Posted by Joymax_Trans2
Whatever, get your facts together before making blanket statements then maybe you won't get verbally beat up on. And yes, I read your long a.... post. Maybe your the one that needs to reread it. Go be a slave and leave us hard working guys alone to work as we please and live in peace.
Have a nice day ******** ****** ******** |
4 pages started by such a silly comment. pepe had it right on page 1.
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Originally Posted by Joymax_Trans2
Go be a slave
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Even with the extra expenses it comes out to about 20cpm more with your own authority than if you are leased to a carrier. That is IF you have a trailer payment. If not than the out-of-pocket expenses are only 8-10cpm more. An independent O/O averaging 1.50 a mile is earning about 20-30k more a year than an O/O leased to a carrier that pays 1.10 a mile and covers all the plates and extra insurance. A carrier paying percentage is not much better than a mileage-paying carrier if they have too much deadhead or haul too many cheap loads. 75% of 1.50 a mile is only 1.10 a mile and doesn't include deadhead for example.
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Originally Posted by DD60
if they have too much deadhead or haul too many cheap loads. 75% of 1.50 a mile is only 1.10 a mile and doesn't include deadhead for example.
Do you really have any idea, what you are talking about? Do you really believe, that "paper numbers", has anything to do with reality? It's not about your "title", it's how it's done! Some will succeed, and a lot will fail, regardless of "business mode" The friend of mine, leased to a carrier, dry box, lowest of a "food chain", 90% drop&hook, home every weekend, and thru the week,, last year grossed $209,000.00 for 95,000 hub miles! 8) |
Thats what I am saying also
Working brokers as an independant is no bargain Don't think there is a great load waiting for you after you make your delivery A lot of brokers don't factor in any kind of break time when you pick up in the pm and assume you have 11 hours to drive after you pick up. You lose a LOT OF DAYS if you decide to run legal as an independant while the lease driver is hammering his 1.10 per mile day in and day out. |
while the lease driver is hammering his 1.10 per mile day in and day out.
That is the problem. :roll: |
You need to manage your business, not the other way around. When you run your authority you are a carrier and responsible for all the legal requirements to stay and run legal. You don't have to break all the rules to make good money as an independent. I rarely run 10 hours a day when I am out. I seem to do just fine. I know of others running their authority who also do well for themselves. You don't need to constantly break all the rules to earn a good living. I think you will likely find more who break the rules who lease to a carrier than those who run their own authority. Most independents keep thing pretty straight. There are always exceptions. There is nothing evil about being in business. Some will do well, others will fail. Not everyone is cut out to run their own business. You don't always need to be the chief to be successful. There are plenty of company drivers and owner operators who lease to carriers who earn a very good living.
You can wait for your next load, but you can also book a load while in transit to deliver the load you are currently under. Businessmen plan ahead. It can be a challenge, but you can do it. I start looking for my next load as soon as I get loaded for my current load. If I don't find something which pays enough, I may wait for a day to get something which does pay well, or I deadhead out to a better paying area. That is what I do. Some people haul whatever they can put on the truck quickly, regardless of the rate. They run so close on money that they feel that they can't afford to sit for a day to get a good paying load. They run close on money because they haul cheap freight. I haven't met any who are running their own authority who is running for $1.10/mile, including deadhead. |
Originally Posted by GMAN
I haven't met any who are running their own authority who is running for $1.10/mile, including deadhead.
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I don't know where he came up with that number, either. I doubt that even those who are running for low mileage pay are actually running for that little, if you include the fsc.
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Maybe some of you misread. I was merely pointing out that even some of the percentage-paying companies can have a high amount of deadhead or less-than-desirable rates,or both. I have seen some O/Os run for these carriers and average 1.10-1.15 a mile and think they are doing great. :lol: Some do better leased and some do better with their own authority. Everything doesn't always go smooth and the way you want it to in this biz.
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When I leased to a percentage carrier my deadhead was slightly less than 10%. Rounded up it was 10%. I averaged $1.66 with one truck and $1.81 on the other for ALL miles, including deadhead. I am sure not everyone did as well. Some probably did better. In any case, it was much better than leasing to a carrier who paid $0.80-0.90/mile, even for all miles. I paid my own base plates and permits, fuel taxes, etc., and still did very well when I leased to a carrier on percentage. I am doing much better running my own authority. Most mileage carriers are forced dispatch. The majority of percentage carriers are not forced dispatch. That means that you decide where you want to run and at what rate. Running for a percentage carrier is closer to actually running your authority. The main differences are keeping track of your fuel taxes and other filings and insurance. I can tell you from personal experience that even with the higher cost of insurance I still make more money than if I leased to a carrier. I understand that is not always the case. Some people are better managers and more efficient at running a business than others. I believe we all need to find our own comfort level. The idea is to earn the best living you can. Some can make more with their own authority, other will do better leasing to a carrier. I don't think all carriers are bad. There are good and bad ones. It is often a matter of finding one that is a good fit for you. Running your authority isn't that difficult, but it can be time consuming, dealing with all the government regulations, finding loads and all the other business aspects There are some people who would rather drive and let someone else deal with the paperwork. Others don't mind dealing with all the little details.
My advice to anyone who is thinking about becoming an owner operator or getting their authority is do a lot of research and be honest with yourself about what you want to do and with what you are comfortable. Before making a decision, get all the information you can in order to make a good decision. What works for me may not be what you need or truly want. Experience is the best teacher. If you want to become an owner operator or get your own authority, drive for a company first. You should see whether you enjoy this business before you start spending money. In this business, it isn't the big things which will kill you. It is the little things. You must take care of the details. |
I picked 1.10 out of the air
Maybe the dry is different but refridgerated takes hours to deliver and even more hours to pick up. Many times my hours run out at the customer. Brokers who don't know you are leary of booking too far in advance btw because of the delay time involved . Make any call to a broker on getloaded or ITS and you will find their appt time has no 10 hour break time. Especially in the 0-600 mile range Its all load and go. So you start out with a load and go and you deliver. You cant load and go again all week. So you lose a day here and there. So the 1.50 -2.00 per mile I may make may actually be less at the end of the year than someone who grinds out x cpm as a leased operator working every day |
The extra pick up and deliver times are just other reasons to get good rates. You can't afford to haul cheap freight and sit for hours on end. When you run your own authority, you can put something in about detention time if you choose. You can also include lumpers, etc., It is your business. It is up to you to determine how you are going to run it. There is a steel plant in Portage, IN that kept me waiting for 6 hours for no good reason other than they didn't want to work. Second shift came in and we all got loaded. I was supposed to have been paid detention time. That was several years ago. I never received my detention pay and have not hauled anything for this plant since. It is my business. I decide for whom I will haul freight and at what rate. I pull flats and step deck freight. I charge for tarping a load. It is an extra service. If a shipper or broker doesn't want to pay the tarp fee I don't take the load. Some people regularly pay for lumpers out of their pocket. If a lumper is needed, either the broker or shipper pays it in addition to the haul rate. If not, I don't haul the load. It has never made sense to me for a receiver to charge to unload his own freight. You don't have to allow shippers and/or receivers to take advantage of you. It is your business. You can choose to leave if they don't have you loaded or unloaded within a certain time unless they are willing to pay for your time to sit.
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Originally Posted by Sonny Pruitt
So you lose a day here and there.
Well, at least I'm home! :D |
very intresting post...
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