Originally Posted by :
This is actual fuel cost, not the fuel surcharge as you claim. Fuel surcharge is figured differently and Aligator explained it very well.

You're right about the fsc, I was a bit hasty when I posted that reply - my bad.

Any way - I will stay with the FSC based on $1.50/gallon and 6 mpg because I think it is fair for a carrier to cover half the cost of fuel - give or take.


Here's my reasoning:

I do not think it is fair for the driver to expect for the carrier to pay for all of his fuel - anymore than I feel it is fair for the carrier to expect the driver pay for all his fuel. And I am not depending on the customer to pay squat for fsc.

This is, after all, a partnership between the carrier and the driver. Drivers who sign on with us will understand this fact, or they won't sign on.

I believe one major reason that many drivers gripe (rightfully so) about their FSC, is that they do not make enough to start with - so, the only solution I see is to try to increase the loaded per mile rate.

What I plan to do is - leave the base rate @ $1.00/mile for the first 15 days, possibly 30 days - I'm honestly not sure. If and when - or - as soon as I see that I can routinely haul better paying freight, I will do what I can to bump the base rate to $1.25/mile and keep the same FSC I mentioned above.

Just for what it's worth.

One can get all spun up debating FSC but the basic fact is that for a carrier or O/O...it is costs plus profit=why we do it at all... :) FSC is simply to cover wide and very quickly changing fuel prices which comprises a major portion of the costs of doing business. A carrier or O/O can take $1.50 as a basis or $1.00 as the basis, it doesn't matter AS LONG as the difference is made up in the base rate!! I would accept either FSC as long as the TOTAL (fsc+$/mi) equaled what I am willing to run for. Once again, the FSC is simply to cover the fluctuation of fuel.

Originally Posted by :
And I am not depending on the customer to pay squat for fsc.

Are you saying that your customer does not pay any FSC and you will provide it to your O/O's? So if fuel goes from $2.98 to $3.20 in 1 week, you absorb that? Your customers will love you...as long as you can stay in business... :lol:
My feeling is fuel is a cost of doing business and the customer (and all of us ultimately) must bear that in the rates they pay!

Originally Posted by :
Are you saying that your customer does not pay any FSC and you will provide it to your O/O's? So if fuel goes from $2.98 to $3.20 in 1 week, you absorb that? Your customers will love you...as long as you can stay in business... Laughing
My feeling is fuel is a cost of doing business and the customer (and all of us ultimately) must bear that in the rates they pay!

We have tons of customers, some pay no FSC, but the rate is great - some do pay fsc, but the rate is low - as of yet, we do not have any customer that pays .26/mile. We feel our formula fairly balances out the reality of the situation.

Most of our customers simply want a quote that includes all extra charges, including FSC.

Some are reluctant to raise their base rate because they are afraid that they will lose customers. Instead, they rely on the fsc to help equalize the rate. I don't concern myself with the fsc provided rates are high enough for me to make a fair profit. A fsc is needed when you have low haul rates. A lot of customers have gotten used to paying a fsc for shipping products. Since there is a sense of non-permanence attached to a fsc, there is less resistance than simply raising rates.

Originally Posted by solo379:

Originally Posted by Rev.Vassago:
This whole discussion is quite humorous. Thanks for the laugh, all. :lol:

And what's so funny about it? :roll:

All the discussion of how much the O/O should take home after expenses, the "cookie cutter" rate that every O/O sould be running for, the FSC rate calculation.

It's all pretty darn funny, and gave me a good laugh. Thanks again.

Originally Posted by Rev.Vassago:

Originally Posted by solo379:

Originally Posted by Rev.Vassago:
This whole discussion is quite humorous. Thanks for the laugh, all. :lol:

And what's so funny about it? :roll:

All the discussion of how much the O/O should take home after expenses, the "cookie cutter" rate that every O/O sould be running for, the FSC rate calculation.

It's all pretty darn funny, and gave me a good laugh. Thanks again.

The only "funny", i see here, it's how the same contest, could be read differently, by different people! :roll: :P

Originally Posted by solo379:
The only "funny", i see here, it's how the same contest, could be read differently, by different people! :roll: :P

Exactly.

A rough way of figuring out what you should make per mile is to take whatever the price of diesel is at the pump. Say it's 3.00. Long haul loads you can drop down under that somewhat...say .50...while short loads should pay 3.00 a mile or more. Call me crazy...but to make a decent living that's what I think a truck should gross.

As long as their are new drivers that want to be o/o there will always be .90 cpm carriers. As long as we have drivers before we have business men and women there will always be .90 cpm carriers.

Originally Posted by busaboy24:
Call me crazy...but to make a decent living that's what I think a truck should gross.

Unfortunately, there is a difference, between "should", and "could"! :sad:

I gotta put my 2 cents in I was leased to Brisk in Front Royal,VA.,
I was there about six weeks,and the only reason I went was I had to have a lease to finance my truck through my bank. I was originally going t
Landstar but do to a technicallity I could not qualify, and my truck deal wa
already in the works so I leased on with Brisk.
The biggest problem I had was at the time I was there they had about 150 operators but only had 80 loads a day. so a lot of trucks would
not get a load, and when your number came up on the broad it would be a 200 mile run to Jessup,MD. Not good! I starved there,
And don't get me started on flat rate, this is the epitome of the trucking industry.
These companies pay you .85 to .95 cents a mile so they can turn your
truck into a fixed asset.
They provide a base plate and ins to hold your truck hostage.,but you still will be deducted from your settlement.
I know there are allot of drivers that don't really understand this business
and am I by no means claiming to be a expert,but I have paid my dues
and learned,mostly the hard way.
You can't survive on flat rate,and don't be mislead by the so called freebie's, Free Tolls,Free Plates etc. your much better off leasing on with
a percentage company.
Let me give you a couple of examples why flat rate sucks for drivers and the industry as a whole.
First if the company can turn all it's trucks into a fixed asset(Brisk is a perfect example being 100% O/OP) the trucks only cost the company .93
cents per mile. Now Brisk is getting over $2.00 per mile from Sysco Foods
to do there logistics. you do the math.but the worst part is If I was to come in Sysco as a independent contractor and say would haul there freight for $1.95 I would not be able compete with Brisk because they can
go as low as a dollar amile and still turn a profit. this is the biggest reason
why freight rates are so low is because these flat rate companies have so much room in there profit margins. Independents have a very hard time competing for freight.
Next if you where to be on percentage @ $2.00 per mile at say 75% with
there trailer. you would be getting a $1.50 a mile and you would putting enough money in your pocket to survive and actually make a decent living.
I didn't mention FSC it should be paid 100% to the truck whether your on flat rate or percentage.Period!

I didn't mention FSC it should be paid 100% to the truck whether your on flat rate or percentage.Period!

Amen-I don't know how a company can justify taking a penny of it with the exception deducting a few bucks for the Paper Work.

Brisk pays 93 cents per mile on PC Practical miles, all miles.
Fuel surcharge of 1 cent per mile for every 6 cents over $1.20
They pay stop pay
Charge back for nothing except bobtail and occupational accident a total of $36 per week and will put you at home every weekend, loaded if you live north of VA. North to Maine and over to Pittsburgh.
Very straight forward and dedicated to one customer.
They only deliver to 14 locations and its all no touch or drop and hook.

Can you maintain your truck and family on whats left? 93cpm plus 22cpm fsc if they are honest = $1.15 minus 42cpm for high priced eastcoast fuel = 73cpm to make tractor payment, service tractor every 15k, pay insurance monthly, baseplate/permits for next year, taxes, weekly pay check, rent/mortgage, groceries, lights, gas, mamas car note, kids clothes, mamas clothes, movies, new refrigerator,etc etc. 73cpm is not going to cut it, if you are thinking of running there DONT. If you are recruiting there STOP. Let this thread die, until you get your rates up!!!!!

They have fuel on site in VA you fill there. No BS rand miles or short miles.
The odomoter matches or is less than the paid miles.
That's 10% better than the f&*^ing shorts other people pay no unpaid dead head miles or waiting for loads or back hauls. Hell they pay detention you wait you get paid. Give two hours, $30 for hour 3 then another $60 for hour 4 then $90 an hour after that.
You can tell me what is wrong but steady work, home time and no days waiting on loads not getting paid. You choose your loads and backhauls so you do what you want to do.

If you want more per mile run tanker on percentage, that's right no dead head pay no wash out pay and wait for loads if they can find them but a great mileage rate and you don't know when you get home, Good plan!

Originally Posted by greatwidededicated:
Good plan!

For a sucker who doesn't know any better. :roll:

Unfortunately, you are broke. You just don't know it yet. :sad:

Originally Posted by greatwidededicated:
They have fuel on site in VA you fill there. No BS rand miles or short miles.
The odomoter matches or is less than the paid miles.
That's 10% better than the f&*^ing shorts other people pay no unpaid dead head miles or waiting for loads or back hauls. Hell they pay detention you wait you get paid. Give two hours, $30 for hour 3 then another $60 for hour 4 then $90 an hour after that.
You can tell me what is wrong but steady work, home time and no days waiting on loads not getting paid. You choose your loads and backhauls so you do what you want to do.

If you want more per mile run tanker on percentage, that's right no dead head pay no wash out pay and wait for loads if they can find them but a great mileage rate and you don't know when you get home, Good plan!

This is a man who was once burned and now he will SETTLE until he realizes he is in the fire with gasoline drawers on. Good plan!

This buisiness is a good buisiness, you can make darn good living at it if you are the type of a person who knows hot to manage your assests you can make it without a problem. Even if they paid you 2.00 per mile and you turn around and burn it in a casino or go out and buy a a 80.000 sports car( and it HAPPENS a'lot acctualy ), yeah, you'll go broke....
I know A'LOT of guys who are my friends and are making it with that 1.15 flat rate, taking care of their fammilies, have really nice house, couple of vehicles, vacationing every single year overseas and so forth, BUT NO car payments or credit of any other kind, no debt....i managed to buy my truck new after 1.5yrs running for a company HARD which some people dont like to do unfortunally, but to each its own. People bitch a'lot and i really dont like that, go back to a factory or in the city and see how hard it is to make 800 a week..


Its all about you, thats my 02 !

Originally Posted by Dejanh:
People bitch a'lot and i really dont like that, go back to a factory or in the city and see how hard it is to make 800 a week..

Not that hard, if you are putting in the amount of hours that most truck drivers do.

$800 / 100 hours per week = $8.00 per hour.
$800 / 70 hours per week = $11.43 per hour.

Plus you sleep in your own bed every night. :wink:

Originally Posted by Rev.Vassago:

Originally Posted by Dejanh:
People bitch a'lot and i really dont like that, go back to a factory or in the city and see how hard it is to make 800 a week..

Not that hard, if you are putting in the amount of hours that most truck drivers do.

$800 / 100 hours per week = $8.00 per hour.
$800 / 70 hours per week = $11.43 per hour.

Plus you sleep in your own bed every night. :wink:

You're comparing apples to oranges here, 70hrs in a factory its not the same as 70hrs in my truck..

And..you know, i have been told that all the time by the people who are just plain jelous that a 25yo can menage to make a pretty good living just driving a truck.We dont work all the time, we sleep as well as we would sleep at home. Go ahead and try to pull 70-80 Hr per week NO-STOP, trust me, im in pretty good shape, playin all kinds of sports and used to work 10-15hrs overtime every week and couldt handle it...please...let them talk and let us work, at least am working for my self and in 3-5 years ill have something, what will they have except a broken back and a maxed out credit card.. :roll:


keep on truckin..

Originally Posted by Dejanh:
You're comparing apples to oranges here, 70hrs in a factory its not the same as 70hrs in my truck..

How so? Is it the fact that in a factory, you are getting paid for all 70 hours, but in your truck, you are giving some hours away for free?

Originally Posted by :
And..you know, i have been told that all the time by the people who are just plain jelous that a 25yo can menage to make a pretty good living just driving a truck.We dont work all the time, we sleep as well as we would sleep at home.

Say that again when you have a wife and two children at home who don't see their father for weeks on end.

Originally Posted by :
Go ahead and try to pull 70-80 Hr per week NO-STOP, trust me, im in pretty good shape, playin all kinds of sports and used to work 10-15hrs overtime every week and couldt handle it...please...let them talk and let us work, at least am working for my self and in 3-5 years ill have something, what will they have except a broken back and a maxed out credit card.. :roll:

Come back in 3-5 years and make that same statement after you hit that "glass ceiling". There is a reason for a 130% turnover rate in the trucking industry - people keep job hopping, looking for something better. They don't find it, so they hop jobs again and again.

The ratio of good paying trucking jobs to average is very small.

Originally Posted by :
keep on truckin..

No thanks - I have found that doing as little driving as possible makes me more money. :wink:

I don't have any kids but am engaged and trying to make something out of myself before i turn 30 so when the kids come i can stay home do my own thing somehow...you're talking about that 70hrs again and i told you, go ahead and work them straight for a week and tell me how you like it?
Hours that am giving away for free as you call them i spend in my sleeper or a truck stop not doing anything, and you're comparing doing nothing with doing something FOR NOTHING...

Yes, you'll get paid for all 70hrs but you'll work too...

And whats a glass ceiling, as long as you work you'll have, am not trying to be a millionaire doing this any time soon but I CAN clear nice bottom line even when i was paying 2.90 per gallon and loads payed 1.14-20. Its all about how you're able to handle things and manage money, YOU CAN NOT GO BROKE. I don't want to do this when i have kids, GOD FORBID!


And i know that you can make dough by not driving and that's what i started to look at for past couple of months so when the comes ill know what to do...

Originally Posted by Dejanh:
I don't have any kids but am engaged and trying to make something out of myself before i turn 30 so when the kids come i can stay home do my own thing somehow...you're talking about that 70hrs again and i told you, go ahead and work them straight for a week and tell me how you like it?

70 hours in a week is 70 hours in a week. Most carriers want you to use EVERY hour available to you.

Originally Posted by :
Hours that am giving away for free as you call them i spend in my sleeper or a truck stop not doing anything, and you're comparing doing nothing with doing something FOR NOTHING...

Free time:

1. Short miles
2. Unpaid loading
3. Unpaid unloading
4. Traffic jams
5. Fueling
6. Pre Trip/Post Trip inspections.
7. etc.

Originally Posted by :
Yes, you'll get paid for all 70hrs but you'll work too...

You're right - most truck drivers aren't really working. They are just holding a steering wheel and warming a seat.

Originally Posted by :
And whats a glass ceiling, as long as you work you'll have,

Nope. Not necessarily.

Originally Posted by :
am not trying to be a millionaire doing this any time soon but I CAN clear nice bottom line even when i was paying 2.90 per gallon and loads payed 1.14-20.

Now that is just ridiculous. Try and peddle that BS somewhere else.

Originally Posted by :
Its all about how you're able to handle things and manage money, YOU CAN NOT GO BROKE. I don't want to do this when i have kids, GOD FORBID!

$2.90 per gallon fuel is $2.90 per gallon fuel. A $1500 per month truck payment is a $1500 per month truck payment. Most drivers' fixed and variable expenses are about the same, and $1.15-$1.20 per mile doesn't cut it.



EDITED TO FIX A BBCODE TAG

Well OK....

"I agree that $0.50 / mile is a fair rate for an O/O. "


I just about fell out of my chair laughing when I read that.
Why would somebody ask if $1.26 is enough money to operate.

Personally, I think if you have to ask that question you should find a new line of work.

At rates like that nobody has to worry about Mexican trucks because they couldn't afford the pay cut.

That's just plain crazy.

If somebody wants to pay you less than 100 per cent of the FSC run don't walk to the nearest door, then slam it behind you.

If they're trying to screw you on the FSC then they will be screwing you on something else.
Count on it.

How do you think clowns like JB and Schneider are making so much money right now.

Where I went to school if you charge a FSC that is intended to offset the fuel expenses incurred by the truck hauling the freight and then pocket ANY of that money, then that's fraud.
Straight and simple.

The next biggest laugh is "it's in the Rate".

Once I get back up off the floor from laughing I ask them how much they calculated into the rate.

Obviously now if they put it "in the rate" they should have a number.
No?

The simple advice is to to not deal with anybody like that.

I find pretty much true that these people that try to screw you over on fuel FSC and rates are usually the people that have garbage freight that will hang you up with appointments or some such BS.

If they think that they can own and operate equipment at the rates they want to pay then I encourage them to go out and buy equipment for their own use.

When I say buy equipment I don't mean buy some rustbucket that nobody else wants and some trailer that can barely sit on it's own rims.
It costs money to make money.

These guys and their "backhaul" rates really screw things up.

I used to run to California empty , run around doing 7 or 8 LTL picks and then go home and unload sooner than most of the trucks that hauled their cheap "Oh well, it pays the fuel" freight. and I made more money than them not to mention I got more rest and I didn't beat the crap out of my truck or myself for that matter.

Go to college instead.

Even IF make a living off $1.26/mile, what career will you move into when you have kids? Many prospective employers will want more education and experience than driving a truck can offer. Despite what the magazines and schools say, I don't see it as a wise career move. One mistake and your "career" is over. You are left with a small nest egg if you're lucky (and a mound of debt and bankruptcy if you're not). Then you'll need to bo back to school anyway.

You limit yourself to being a dispatcher or broker when you leave the road.

Originally Posted by rank:
Go to college instead.

Even IF make a living off $1.26/mile, what career will you move into when you have kids? Many prospective employers will want more education and experience than driving a truck can offer. Despite what the magazines and schools say, I don't see it as a wise career move. One mistake and your "career" is over. You are left with a small nest egg if you're lucky (and a mound of debt and bankruptcy if you're not). Then you'll need to bo back to school anyway.

good post..

What i do know about being an Owner Operator is that if you do get less than $1.26 a mile, you are getting jipped, ripped and told to bend over and reach for your ankles.

However, i am not an Owner Operator yet, the thought has crossed my mind a few times. Between $1.26 to about $1.75 is pretty decent, some owner operators can make more if they shop around and find THE right kind of freight to haul.

This country has gone to shit since Richard Nixon and is hair brained scheme to deregulate trucking. Look this up, Nixon did and has deregulated trucking, company drivers were making just as much as a Owner Operator did. Who can make a living on 9 cents a mile? Or less than 25 cents? for a company driver and for Owner Operators, who can live off less than $1.00 a mile?

The trucking companies did it to themselves. Deregulate trucking was the right thing to do.

Originally Posted by allan5oh:
The trucking companies did it to themselves. Deregulate trucking was the right thing to do.

Is this sarcasm?

In Asia they can make living on 9cpm.

While running wth MCT I was making about $1.20-$1.30 a mile on average, I made a living at that rate, but I didn't have a brand new truck with a hefty payment due each month, nor was I the sole provider for my family (if I was I would have been in trouble!). I was there for a littler over one month and left. Not because of the money or giving up but I had personal issues I had to come home for not leaving me any other choice but that. However if I had stayed with MCT I would have gone to a percentage company as soon as my experice would allow me to get on somewhere else. When I leased onto MCT I had less than a year under my belt on my CDL, so companies like Landstar or Mercer wouldn't talk to me until I hit that one year on the CDL mark, and being new with the industry I felt it be best to wait on getting my own authority until I ran for a couple of years.

Prior to that I ran with another company as a o/o, also for one month. I was paid $1.10 a mile plus FSC. I left as soon as I found out they were not keeping their promise of paying 100% FSC to the truck, my fuel costs were sky high and I do not believe it is right for any company to make money off of the FSC unless they own the truck. Other issues I had there was the fact I was free labor to them, they had local drivers they would pay by the hour, but they would send the O/O out to sit at docks because they didn't have to pay them. I won't work for free and its a shame so many companies expect their O/O's to do just that.

I know a guy who runs with Fedex, his trucks earn $1.03 per mile and he has a set fuel rate of $1.24 (or something like that), he owns 3 trucks, makes payments on two of them (both purchased new) has 3 drivers working for him and a large family to support andis the sole income for them. He makes a good living, not getting rich I bet or retiring anytime soon, but he pays the bills and makes sure his family, trucks and drivers are taken care of. So its not impossible to make a living on these "average" wages most companies pay out.

Originally Posted by Dejanh:

Originally Posted by rank:
Go to college instead.

Even IF make a living off $1.26/mile, what career will you move into when you have kids? Many prospective employers will want more education and experience than driving a truck can offer. Despite what the magazines and schools say, I don't see it as a wise career move. One mistake and your "career" is over. You are left with a small nest egg if you're lucky (and a mound of debt and bankruptcy if you're not). Then you'll need to bo back to school anyway.

good post..

Thanks. Sorry I take such a dim view of truck driving as a career, but IMO the risk reward ratio is way out of line. For me, to compensate for the capital investment, time away and the risk of sudden revenue loss do to accident, a company OTR driver should be able to work 5 days a week and earn $50,000, an o/o $100,000 and a guy with his own authority.....$150,000 (EBIT).

But then what I think doesn't really matter.

If you have the capital there are other businesses that give you a better return than trucking. Lots of people don't have the knowledge or drive to do it. How many truckers own the yachts in the marina?

Originally Posted by rank:
Go to college instead.

Even IF make a living off $1.26/mile, what career will you move into when you have kids? Many prospective employers will want more education and experience than driving a truck can offer. Despite what the magazines and schools say, I don't see it as a wise career move. One mistake and your "career" is over. You are left with a small nest egg if you're lucky (and a mound of debt and bankruptcy if you're not). Then you'll need to bo back to school anyway.

You limit yourself to being a dispatcher or broker when you leave the road.

Dont go to college, colleges are filled with underachievers and have numerous underachiever alums. Use that CDL, make as much money as you can, save, invest, make more money. I never took a college course on how to make money. What is the fastest money you can make legally? Answer is running the wheels off that rig at a profit. If you disagree, what do you suggest?

Damn straight. After college, I drove as an o/o. Made wayyy more than what companies were offering. IF I was wise, I'd save it all.

...But I'm not and ran back to college for another semester before going into the trucking world again. 8)

And, $1.26 isn't too shabby for all miles. ITs far from the best though, and it would have to be a 2500mi+ length of haul! :lol:

Only thing that i cant understand in this buisiness are the people who have 20+years of expirienceand still, to this day drive a truck. In a little over year and a half i managed te create a'lot by just saving, and the worst part is the fact when they tell you that they love being away weeks away from home and all that BS... :roll:

I said it before and ill say it again, no matter if the company pays you 2$ per mile if you blow that fast you wont have a damn thing. Couple of my friends drive for a flate rate of 1.14 or one for 1.18 and still managed toexpand their assests 10 times more than those ,,old timers'' in just little over a 3-5 year period...its all on the individual and how hes taking care of things. Mr.Gman has a good post about ,,how to succed'' on this forum, i would suggest everyone to read it!

Originally Posted by Dejanh:
and the worst part is the fact when they tell you that they love being away weeks away from home and all that BS... :roll:

Sorry buddy, some people do like to be away from home for weeks at a time. Esp. if they have a crazy/annoying/ect family they are leaving behind. Some people are loaners, a lot of them become truckers.