Slip, sliddin' away
 

For all those new drivers facing their first winter, the snow and slippery roads are beginning to move in. The norther tier of states have already gotten a dose of it, and currently, there's a system moving into the I-81 area.

In every area that gets hit with it, snow and ice are more of a hazard early in the season because the biggest problem you'll face, after your own ability (or lack of it) to deal with it, is 4-wheelers that are still driving by "Summer Standards". They forget that you can not control the vehicle on snow and ice, the same as they could over the last six months. Often, their "refresher course" involves a trip to the body shop to get some of their errors straightened out.

In cartoons, it's possible to lift the belly of the trailer and allow them to pass under you. In life, you could find yourself in their way and involved in an accident no matter what you do. It becomes even more important for you to maintain your log book, and be alert to everything going on around you. It also means you must keep your mind on your own driving and your own vehicle. So, for driving in bad weather, your job "difficulty rating" goes up by geometric proportions the worse the weather gets.

Early in the season, temperatures are often not that cold. You actually get more traction in colder weather than you do when the mercury is just below freezing. Near freezing, the snow contains water and "packs". After a couple of vehicles pass, the surface becomes just as slick as ice. If you are able to make your own track, it's just a little improvement but, mostly, you'll find that hundreds have gone over it before you get there.

Do not expect your brakes to be very effective at all.
Keep your speed proportional to the surface conditions.
Reduce your speed well in advance of the point where you must begin to stop or turn.
Be alert for surprise changes in the surface conditions... And, wind force and direction.
Do not use the cruise control on slick roads. It doesn't know how to "feather" the throttle.
When your speed is up between 5 and 10 mph, make sure you DIS-ENGAGE the differential lock.
Last but not least, DO NOT MAKE ANY SUDDEN MOVES WITH THE STEERING WHEEL, THE THROTTLE, OR THE BRAKE. Jerking the wheel or jamming the brakes could cause you to lose control yourself, and mashing the throttle can cause a spin-out to give you all the help you need to jackknife your truck.
The safety department for a trucking company in MN tells their drivers that if you realize your drives are going sideways, put in the clutch... FAST. (But not far enough to engage the clutch brake) If you have not gone to too far an angle, it should straighten out. (Jackknife is just one of the ways to put a "detour" in your career)

(How many questions are we going to get from new drives asking just what is the "clutch brake"?)

As of this moment, Memphis, TN is getting snow, and that is moving east. It's sure to catch quite a number of people in it's wake. Don't be one of the ones that does not survive it all.

Another thing to remember is to allow plenty of room between you and the vehicles in front. If someone cuts you off just back off the fuel and give them extra room. An accident can cause traffic to stop suddenly. If you haven't allowed sufficient room then you could be part of another accident. It doesn't take much for a trailer to come around if you hit brakes too hard on icy roads. It is better to arrive late than to not get there at all. You also need to allow more time to get to your destination in snow or icy conditions. You can pretty well count on accidents and delays, so leave earlier so that you can still make your deliver or pick up schedule.

Hello. I just got my learner's permit and will be going to a community college in Lincoln NE (which is favored by Crete). I hope to be hired for one of Crete's regional OTR contracts. My instructor thinks there is a good chance it might happen, and I am crossing my fingers because they seem like a good operation. I chose to learn how to drive a large commercial truck in the winter because (although it is a bit scary) I feel I will learn to drive on snow and ice much better with an instructor sitting in the truck with me. I could have put it off and learned during the good weather, but I would not have gotten that most important knowledge firsthand. I have been in this area of the country (Omaha area) for around 13 years, (after living in the deasert southwest most of my life) and have driven in white out and blizzard conditions-- man, those are white knuckle moments -- -many times, and each time out, I feel that elemental fear-- I think after 10-20 times though, I learned to "think" through the fear (if anyone knows "Dune" fear is the mind killer) and I think just being able to stay "present" and "within your body" is a major improvement over "freaking out." The first times I had to drive in a snowstorm at 4am, I actually slept in the car, I was so chicken s#%*. Then, the mind started to operate. I really thank you for imparting your knowledge. My lessons, begin in January, and end in March. Frankly, December is the snowiest time around here, the rest is just Gawdaful dirty snow and ice. In the meantime, I am just hanging around soaking up the knowledge base here. The great thing about this area is that they keep their freeways very clear. Other streets, not so much. Now, driving on rural roads is going to be a bit more tricky. I can't think about it now. This time next year, I'll have nearly a year of driving under my belt, and hope I am a little smarter then.

I've been through Counsel Bluffs and Omaha when there were snow flakes coming down the size of chicken feathers. Wife had never seen lightening during a snowstorm until then. We spent the night in the middle of I-80, just west of Greenfield. That was in January. The only way to get to Denver the next day was by running the back roads. I-80 was shut down. You may expect to find what you're looking for into April. Pay very close attention, because if you don't, your career can be very short. Even seasoned drivers find that not paying attention can lead to disaster.

very well said and SO TRUE

I totally agree. I have seen those chicken feathers in CB

the one thing to remember is your life is more important then the load. i love the super truckers that do 70 when you cant see infront of you weather it be snow ice rain or just the sun is in your eyes.. my motto.. i get there when i get there

One of the worst misconceptions I've ever heard on the CB was a couple of other drivers stating: "We're putting up a spray, we're OK."

I came out of Casper, WY one day, and it was freezing rain. On the way to MN, I decided to run across US-20 to about half way across NE before I went up into SD. A few miles east of Robinson, NE, one of my trailer tires went flat. When I stopped, I realized that the ice build up on the wheels broke off the valve stem. (By the time I got to Sioux Falls, SD, I had broken 3 more) I got to wait 5 hours for a service truck to come just over 50 miles on the wet ice. While I was waiting for the service truck, I put on a raincoat and stepped into the middle of the road. (virtually no traffic at all) It took me about 20 minutes to pick a hole in the ice with my jackknife. Water on top that had been putting up a spray was laying on top of 1 1/2 inches of ice on the blacktop. When I got up to I-90, north of Valentine, NE, I found out that virtually every vehicle that had tried to get onto the interstate in SD went off the road as fast as it had gotten on. The highway was lined with vehicles off the road from there all the way back to the WY line.

The moral of the story is, you had BETTER KNOW what your road surface is. Just because there is water on the road does not mean there is pavement under the water. Wet ice is one of the worst conditions you can find anywhere, and only gets worse when you have a 20+ mph cross wind. A gust of 30 + can take you off the road no matter how good a driver you are. And, if you do find a place where you can stop safely (without the rig sliding off the road), and step out, you are likely to promptly slide under the steps and under the tractor. It's a surface you may not be able to stand on, much less walk. Now, drive on it, spray and all.

During the winter months, if you find that you are putting up a spray, look carefully at the surface of the road. If you can see the tire tread marks from the vehicle in front of you, that's formed by ice crystals in the water. And, ice crystals in the water means that you may not have any actual contact with the pavement, or your contact with the pavement is intermittent. About the time you need the traction most, you won't have it, and you may lose control. Slid off the road and lay it on the side in the ditch, and your career is probably over.

With ice on the road, and temps at 0 or -10, you have better traction than you do on the same ice at 28 or 29 degrees. Also, look for ice when you cross a bridge, pass by trees on the side of the road, or drive next to a cliff face going up on either side. And, in cases where the ice has been melting, and there is water standing, do not hit the water at any speed. It causes "Hydro-braking" against the wheels that can make you lose control because that braking is not uniform on both sides of the truck.

I used to tell the shippers, receivers, and my dispatchers...

"If it's a choice between being late and not making it... I'm going to be late."

Growing and living in the mountains of Colorado I can't count the number of storms I have had to drive in. Living a mile away from the top of Genesee, I've seen it turn from pouring rain to a dumping snow in a matter of 1/4 mile or less. Living on the other side of Berthoud Pass on I-40, not only did I have to worry about road conditions; but I also had to be concerned about the avalanche chutes on either side and getting "t-boned" by a wall of snow coming down from Mount Stanley (on the east side). I have driven through white outs in Grand County and the Sevier Valley of Utah where I couldn't see the reflectors on the side of the road. It was either of "flash" of the reflector, or the "flash" of a snow flake. I have done all of this in a four wheeler. I am quite sure when I do finally get behind the wheel of a rig, it's all going to change. It's apples and oranges. The one thing I did learn that is a major factor and translates to both four wheelers and rigs . . . speed management. SLOW IT DOWN! Speed is the one thing as a driver, you can control. I believe if you maintain a safe speed, most other safety factors fall into place. Again, I can't count the number of times I saw 4X4 four wheelers coming down from the top of Genesee, heading east bound I-70, just a flyin' down that mountain! Only to see them farther on down on their side or on their roof; after a couple of rolls. As the play on words goes: speed kills. Yes, it does.

I like to just give the wheel a quick "shake" to see whether my rubbers are hitting the road.... or skimming over ice (spray or not.) :lol: Of course, I do this with the cruise OFF, and at a speed that I can control the vehicle. This way, I don't have to stop (or slide into a ditch) thereby giving me the time to poke holes with my penknife. I do my homework, and know whether the roads in the area I'm approaching had WATER (rain, freezing rain) on them before they froze solid and built up a base of snow. This makes all the difference. Snow on a DRY road is not much of a problem for those of US who have lived in the "arid" states west of the Ole Miss. Black Ice (or any of the "sporadic" ice sheets WINDY covered due to "shadowing" of the roadway,) are dangerous, but should be expected WITHIN the knowledge of the road surface "per se."

Hobo...

Slick roads still give you the "shakes", I see.....:lol:

http://youtu.be/dcMSTmoNd_0

Well, I sure hope that was not you with the camera, Mr. Ford. I see where two drivers were doing something very wrong. First of all, the driver with the camera went out into the left lane without "taking a peek" first. Stick your nose just over the line and see if there's anything coming. If yes, get back on your own side and back off.

And, the rock bucket that passed the salt shaker was also dead wrong in passing while there was oncoming traffic.

Outside of that, excellent video, Mr Ford.:thumbsup:

Watched the video above and I don't know if it's comforting or scary, but it appears they have idiots in Russia too! The two guys in the filming vehicle are speaking what I think to be Russian (it might be Polish, Ukrainian,
Czech). I've been through Kiev, Ukraine a couple of times and they do have some awfully crazy drivers there; my father-in-law is one of them!

So I'm reading this thread and thinking I should post a great video I saw the other day. You beat me to it MrFord.

Wow. I wonder if everyone's sphincter muscles have relaxed yet.

Yeah wasn't me Wind. They sounded like Eastern European, with the way they seemed to laugh it off, sounded like Russians. Country, they have idiot drivers all over the world. In Turkey it's not uncommon to see the semi's going the wrong way on what is their Interstates. Or the Japanese who smashed what, 8 Ferrari's, a couple of Lambo's and some other high priced supercar in a single crash the other week in rainy weather in the hills outside of Tokyo. Might have been a secret filming of "Fast and Furious" though.

I can't believe he got that trailer to dance back over just enough to miss the camera, wonder if he lost it after he passed the camera. He was passing a plow truck, idiot, you never pass a plow truck unless your looking to wreck.

Michigan, Top Gear UK sent me this Friday morning and I remembered this thread yesterday afternoon.

I would love to know if he fully recovered that trailer, too. It did seem as though he was getting ahead of it. If he had hit the brakes he would probably have gotten the truck that pulled over along with the camera truck.

I've seen a couple of drivers that managed to bring the trailer back in behind them, somehow. A Werner driver in MN had the trailer knocking down every reflector post along I-35 for about a quarter mile, and then it straightened back up again. And, in Indiana, in high wind, a driver had the trailer almost at a right-angle to the tractor. When he got into some trees, the trailer went back behind him. I still don't know how the wind didn't tip the trailer over.

I think the trailer bounced off the guard rail with exactly the right amount of force.

Dad had a friend running with Wal-Mart up in Maine empty who had a truck behind him call on the CB to check his trailer. When he looked out his left mirror he saw nothing, he looked out his right and saw the big Wal-Mart logo. The wind had blown the trailer out from behind him in the left lane clean onto the shoulder on the right while on a snow covered highway. He said he just kept going at the same pace and hoped nothing solid got in the way until the wind dropped off and allowed him to pull it back straight.

That's the thing. If the trailer swinging to the side loses sideways momentum somehow it should settle back in behind the trailer nicely. Too bad that's about all you can do in a truck. In a car you could speed up and coerce a trailer to get back in line.

Obviously the worst thing you can do is hit your brakes in that situation, trailer blown out from behind you, but that is exactly what a lot of people would do out of instinct. Even seasoned drivers who have never experienced that would fall for hitting the brakes, not all of them but some would.

Wow... so many misconceptions.

The voices DO sound Slavic to me, but aren't there MANY of those in this country? MANY of them driving our trucks?

The oncoming cars all looked American (or foreign but bought in America) to me... including the last one with the emergency lights on. (and none of THEM slowed for the snowplow.)

I saw no evidence of WIND. No snow blowing across the road.

The camera vehicle DID "peak" his nose out and retreat to his lane. And he was at a pretty safe distance behind the truck in front of him... which didn't appear to have its LIGHTS on!

The snowplow was STOPPED on the side of the road, but next to a guardrail... meaning he hadn't enough shoulder to BE stopped on.

The roads weren't ALL that slick, cuz the box truck was able to pull right and stop without "losing it." And the camera vehicle stopped in his lane without skidding.

The oncoming truck apparently had to make a quick maneuver around the stopped salt truck. Notice how his wagon slid to the right BEFORE he went around the salt truck, then slid to the left. He was able to "recover" it because he kept accelerating thru the "situation." I doubt he was expecting the situation to happen.

I do believe that the oncoming truck was probably travelling too fast for conditions (and contingencies.) Typical for "local" drivers.

But, I'm not sure that he could have done better by trying to STOP behind the snowplow. Applying the tractor brakes would have made the "box" come completely around taking out the box truck while the tractor was pushed into the snowplow.

If he had a "Johnny bar," applying short bursts of braking to the rear tandems would have brought the trailer in line sooner! (but, of course, RockyMtnPro disagrees with me.)

The important thing is... this can happen in front of ANY of us at any time during the winter months. I didn't see ANYONE put their flashers on to warn other drivers of a situation.

The camera car had the BEST chance to slow down sooner, but didn't. EVERYONE was driving too fast for conditions... the most prevalent of those conditions being the presence of a snowplow.

The only reason the oncoming truck "lost" his trailer, was that he let off the gas and decelerated his rig from the POWER source. Given that mistake, and the situation as it was, I believe HE controlled the situation better than anyone else BUT the straight truck.

Hobo, watch it again man. First off, it was in Europe, that van the camera vehicle was passing is commonly seen in Britain. The other clue that it wasn't anywhere near the US, the speed all the vehicles were moving.

Second, the snowplow did nothing wrong. It only stopped because the idiot in the semi was overtaking him and lost control which forced him towards the guardrail on the right and to a stop. Nobody said anything about wind being involved, just discussing other ways for something like that to happen due to wind.

Stopping the video at the 20 second mark shows the oncoming truck's trailer is behind the snowplow and slides all the way across the road until it hits the guardrail. It looks like the roads were at least a little slick. I can't tell how fast the vehicles were moving.

Note to self - don't stop being lucky.

According to my wife, they were definitely Russian. From what she said, the drivers were basically calling the other driver an "a**hole", and they were also saying something to the effect of, "It's a wonder". Also Hobo to answer your question/ statement, I know the two guys that delivered my four wheeler to Virginia were both Russian. No, I don't know how many there are around, but they're there.

Maybe... but, not on THAT side of the road. :lol:

After further review:

I can see the snow spray coming from the plow just before the incident. He was, in fact, plowing the shoulder. Probably came to a stop to allow the bucket truck room to pass given the situation.

The powdery nature of the snow left after the truck passes the camera, shows that the temp was well below freezing. The road was "clear," but some residual water in the grainy surface would have been ice. But, the road was not "icy" or the van and the camera vehicle couldn't have stopped without sliding.

Obviously, the truck shouldn't have tried to pass the plow, but I don't think he intended to. Had he "planned" to pass the plow, he would have edged around him to his left, and no reason to initially lose the trailer to the right. I believe he was probably TEXTING (or otherwise distracted) and ran up on the plow without totally realizing it. His first impulse would be to decelerate and swerve to the left. This would cause the trailer to slide to the right as it did. Knowing he couldn't stop... he chose to complete the pass and hope for the best. Once he got out there, he saw the van and tried to get back in front of the plow quickly. This "overcorrection" snapped the trailer to the left and across the road. He was definitely accelerating as he tried to pull it back onto the right side of the road in time.

I even think I see evidence that the trailer may have struck the back of the plow as it stopped (which would have helped "kick" it to the left side of the road.)

I don't know where this happened (other than it was not in Britain.) But, I don't see even the representation of a small "european" style vehicle in all the oncoming cars that passed the camera. The VAN cab looks more American than the "mitsubishi" types commonly seen in Europe. [Sure do miss ole WOT!]

I do believe the trucker was able to "save" his trailer. But... I think that SUV with the flashing lights was on his way to give him a ticket. Probably for speeding (too fast for conditions.)

Anyway.... none of my comments are important. I just like trying to analyze these kinds of videos. I don't claim to be right! I just claim that my theory is plausible. :lol:

Good observations Hobo but... hehe There's always a but.

Is North America the only place on the planet where we drive on the right side of the road? I'm too lazy to do searches like "What side of the road do they drive on in Russia?". Is the whole rest of the world driving on the wrong side of the road? Also, I gave up trying to guess how fast vehicles were traveling in vids years ago. I can't tell, I simply can't tell by watching a video. A case in point is Ice Road Truckers. During the in-cab shots it looks like the truck is moving along quite nicely. But then they pan out and the truck is barely moving.

It really depends on the country Michigan. Actually, very few countries drive on the left like the Brits. Here's a map: File:Countries driving on the left or right.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

To answer your question, yes Russia does drive on the right like us.

Wtg MrFord! :clap: Good researching.

MichiganDriver said:

Not in MY world.

No... but, I thought you KNEW that. I also would have thought that you AND Mr. Ford would know that in Britain... they DON'T. I didn't mean to imply, or contest, that this happened in the U.S. But, I did... correctly... point out that it could NOT have happened in Britain where the "box truck" was so often seen.

What searches? Watch MOVIES! And "pay attention" to details. Hell... I don't know all the countries that still live by British Imperialistic rules... but, (and there's always a but,) SOME do! European Automakers [and even American ones] make their vehicles with either "right" or "left" controls depending on the country they're being shipped to. I see someone posted a list. Haven't checked it yet. Don't really care. Surely... Britain is not the ONLY backsided country in the world! But, I KNOW that those vehicles are NOT on the "correct" side of the road to be in Britain.

I never guessed at the speed of the other vehicles. What I noticed was, that they did not ALTER their speed by much if any during the event. This is most easily observed/measured by the fact that there was no major "slowing down" or stacking up of the vehicles. They maintained there "spacing" throughout the event. There was ONE car who slowed to a near stop behind the plow, letting all the others go by, but not ONE of the others exhibited brakelights (which would have been visible in those conditions,) nor did the distance between ANY two of them change dramatically as they "passed thru" the situation without too much concern.

If they were all going slowly, then so was the "trucker." That wasn't the impression I got as HE and all the others passed by the nearly "stationary" camera vehicle. I DID notice a slight acceleration by the vehicle with the flashing lights.

It's a phenomena known as "focal length." To get "clarity" up close, you have to use a focal point with only a two foot (for example) length... or depth. That makes everything coming INTO that field of focus look like it is "rushing." From "outside," or a distance... you use a longer focal length, giving you a DEEPER or (wider) range of things in focus, and things outside that foci are not so far out of the picture that their movements are so exaggerated.

See me after class! ... no really... think about hitting a deer! The guy in the truck says it all happened so fast! But... (and there's always a but...) the guy on the mountain with a long range lens can fire off a whole roll of film showing the approaching truck, and the deer bolting into it's path, and the resulting collision. And then take his second sip of coffee! Perspective. Distance. Focal length.

Don't get me started talking about photography! You might derail me from my mission of political debate! :lol:

Here's a Target load finding the wrong target in Minnesota: Target Truck Skids Into Icy Pond Instead Of Parking Lot (VIDEO)

It skid 100-200 ft on the ice before breaking thru..........that's beyond pucker factor.

Sure don't know what caused it, but I'm sure he gets inducted into the POLAR BEAR CLUB HALL of FAME...
Just a little too chilly to be on that recovery crew.

Sounds like he may have hit a patch of ice on the road. It said he lost control while traveling along I-94, crossed the median and the oncoming lanes before heading out to sea. Maybe the truck is a former Ice Road one.........

Sure fire lock for Polar Bear HOF, first ballot inductee.

In a way, you are right. Snow doesn't bother me so much cuz I can SEE it, but ICE? I don't like it! It can be invisible.

This past week, I was westbound on I-40 through New Mexico and Arizona (late at night.) There was no snow falling or any moisture in the air. Just east of the continental divide, the temp started falling by one degree PER MILE! I couldn't believe it. 20, then 19...18...17... down to 12 degrees, one degree every mile! I've never seen it fall so fast. Then up again for a bit, and then back down. None of this really mattered, as there was no moisture on the roads.

I crossed the border into Arizona doing about 70 mph. (My truck does 75 and that was the speed limit, but I drive slower at night.) Immediately, I noticed that the right lane had been "resurfaced" with a different kind of asphault. And, all of a sudden, the truck felt "wobbly." You know what I mean? Not so immediately respondent to the steering. I slowed down and started "testing" the road surface. As I said earlier, the more "grainy" the surface, the more likely that ice has formed in the cracks and "pores" of the surface.

Yes, Windy, when I had the speed under control (still over 65) I started "jerking" the wheel a little. I'm only talking about maybe 5-10% or so deviation. Experience on DRY roads has taught me to expect the cab to sway a little in response, and then to "recover" to the initial track. But, it was SLOW to respond to my command. I changed lanes (carefully) and did the same on the more "concrete" road surface. Nearly the same response. I returned to the darker asphault lane and continued the experiment. The slow response continued, and I over-rode what my eyes were telling me.... and slowed down even further! I ended up doing about 60 mph in a 75 zone... cuz, I didn't like the FEEL of it! I never DID see anything like a "sheen" on the road, I just slowed down until I felt like I was in control.

On the return trip over the same roads two days later, I did the same experiment, and the truck responded quickly and decisively as I would expect it to. I was able to maintain 70-75 mph in the same area.

I LIKE to drive fast when conditions permit. But... I am NOT going to be one of those who create those "tracks" through the median caused by a driver who either fell asleep OR slid off the road going too fast in a curve when the road was somewhat "icy" on (or under) the surface. [and I lost COUNT of the number of such tracks in the median that were "fresh" on this trip!]

I guess everyone has their own way of finding out if a road is slick. MANY of them find out by plowing thru the median. But, I don't think that will EVER be me! I have my own method, and it has NEVER failed me. And that is to "shake" the wheel a bit if I don't like the "feel" of the rubber on the road!

There was absolutely NO evidence I could see that would explain that road being slick. Five miles earlier, I rounded a curve doing 70+ mph with no problem. The ONLY thing that tipped me off was the "response" of my truck as I continually "checked" the surface as I drove along and my awareness of the difference in the type of road surface.

You can warn against my method all you want. Maybe it will be helpful to newbies who drive 60mph trucks. But, you will NEVER change my mind about my methods (which MAY only apply to drivers of faster trucks.) After all... there ARE "kinetics" involved. But, I am here today to bear witness that having the "shakes" on icy roads can be a good thing.

Hobo, I'm sure you remember one mid-December trip across Texas. I came out of NM on I-40, and while NM had salt shakers out and the road was damp, the state line was like drawing a curtain. No less than 4 accidents within one mile of the state line. By the time I got 36 miles into Texas, there were more than 40 accidents I went by. Guys were chaining up to run flat ground.

So, one of the things that might also help new drivers would be to keep in mind that different states treat their roads differently. One might have salt on the road, and just across the state line, you need ice skates. It could be a very intelligent choice to slow down at a state line and spend some time to determine just what the surface is in the new state. Then, drive accordingly.

Heh heh. I caught that one...................LMFAO!!!

Slick roads are just for starters WW.

A whole lotta shakin goin on in that Hobo ride.