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Logging
Ive been deiving for about 8 months and i got a log question just because im curious. I work for a mega company and log everyday and i can buy 15-30 min here and there if needed, but here on the site theres alopt of talk of legal and illegal. If i understand what i read here do the smaller companies not care about the fed laws putting unrealistic time goals on the drivers? Or is it the drivers just wasting time until they have to lie on the logs. Working for the company i work for i cant see why i would have to lie on the logs. as i write this im thinking maybe it is to save time on your 70?? thanks for the help BJS
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Well, often hot logging is a result of wasted time. But it generally isn't a matter of drivers goofing off. Probably the single biggest impetus for hot logs is the shipper. Shipper says that 500 mile run has to be delivered AM tomorrow, then decides to take 8 hours to load you. And the driver already had a 150 mile deadhead that morning to get to the shipper. So, with a few quick flicks of the magic pencil, that 8 hour load time becomes a 10 hour break and it's on down the road.
The other major incidence is a matter of time management on paper. A lot of the small companies I've worked for dispatch on a 5-600 mile a day average. If you want to hit that target and not trash your 11 or 70, you pretty much have to log on the speed limit regardless of how many hours you actually drove. Log based on speed limits and all of those traffic jams, construction zones, rest breaks, toll booths and such mysteriously disappear. Another common event is the percentage driver angle. When you get paid on percentage, the quicker you turn the load the better. If you can jack the books a bit and deliver early, thats more money in your pocket. This works for CPM drivers as well, but is generally more profitable in the percentage world. Especially in the case of a bum load. Getting cheap freight off of the wagon is always priority one, and the sooner the better. In the CPM world, who cares, you get paid the same regardless of the linehaul rate. On the other hand, if you want to talk full tilt outlaw, well then you are looking at trying to hit impossible delivery times, takes a lot of overheating the log books, and I do mean books as you'll have more than one. There are brokers out there that will sell loads at 8-900 miles a day average, and there are companies that will run them. What it comes down to is solo drivers running team loads. It's crazy at best, and not nearly as common as it once was. But it still occurs, especially in the produce business. What generally happens is a driver runs the snot out of the load, pushing pretty much nonstop, BS's the books just enough to get past DOT in an emergency, and when he hits the delivery he rolls up to a truckstop and sits until "his books catch up with him." |
Who really does it "BY THE BOOK"? I try to as close as I can but I have gone back a day and redid it to get another half hour or hour. We don;t have a problem getting loads and backhauls delivered in the allotted time but I have run a out of hours 90 miles from home. Who is gonna sit and wait for that? Not me.
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Originally Posted by Jumbo
Who really does it "BY THE BOOK"? I try to as close as I can but I have gone back a day and redid it to get another half hour or hour. We don;t have a problem getting loads and backhauls delivered in the allotted time but I have run a out of hours 90 miles from home. Who is gonna sit and wait for that? Not me.
But from reading this board, it would seem that there are a few companies where you can do nothing but run legal. Companies that appear to be checking logs against the Qualcomm and fuel receipts. I've seen guys speak of instances where they had to move off of a dock, 100 yards to a parking area at the shipper and had to log it as driving or they would be busted on their logs. Seems a bit extreme to me, but if you check out some of the company threads (Crete/Shaffer come to mind) you'll see what I am talking about. |
The answer to your question(s) is: Yes, sometimes.
There are many reason why drivers lie on their log books. Anything and everything from poor time management, unrealistic schedules, unforeseen delays, greed, misc personal reasons, etc. There are companies of all sizes that care about running legal and likewise there are those who only pay it lip service. |
Well I drove for Swift, the most mega of the mega carriers, and even with qualcomm, commdata, receipts, and what have yous, the computer is only going to look at the actual hours log that it is legal, and your fueling times. Can they match it to your qualcomm, sure, but they usually will not unless you send up some sort of red flag. Now often I would try to run as legal as possible anyway, but in reality just about every day I technically was not. Very rare though did I ever log anything extreme. Companies like Werner however with their all electronic logging, you cannot get away with nothing. For the sake of legality, you should log legally, but at the same time you will not make as much money if you do log legally. The reality of it is the current system is setup to punish you if you do it legal, and reward you if you do it illegally.
I would have to say, if you do not currently use or understand the 8 and 2 split, you should really get to learn and understand it, as though it is not perfect, it can really help you out alot with your log books if you are going up against a crunch. I used it quite often. |
Originally Posted by matcat
...For the sake of legality, you should log legally, but at the same time you will not make as much money if you do log legally. The reality of it is the current system is setup to punish you if you do it legal, and reward you if you do it illegally....
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i usually log it as i do it.
however, say i have a day ahead of me, and i know i have time to get home with the miles ahead of me, say 680. i basically won't start my log until i get home. i keep notes on my times, and i don't go over my alotted miles. but i may have to stretch teh 14 a bit if i decide to stop to do some business. I have no intention of taking my 10 within 30 miles of my house :/ |
Most if not all trucking companies keep their fingers
crossed that and accident does'nt occur out here... Yet they also float about in a cloud of plausible denial should an accident occur and 'Rules' are brought into question. They know very well how life out here is. Its up to the driver to keep the truck profitable for himself and not kill somebody on the road. |
Originally Posted by matcat
...For the sake of legality, you should log legally, but at the same time you will not make as much money if you do log legally. The reality of it is the current system is setup to punish you if you do it legal, and reward you if you do it illegally....
If you cannot make sufficient money running legally, then you need to do one of two things...find an employer who will compensate you well enough to satisfy you financially for running legal, or find another career field. If your mindset is geared to "getting over on, or beating the system"....then you are in the stages of beginning to take the long walk off the short pier and wearing concrete overshoes. If you think you are getting away with anything...please permit me to dispel that notion. Right this very minute there are probably more than just a couple of "former drivers" sitting in prison or at home shaking their heads in wonder or sadness....their lives and their families lives have been destroyed financially....all because the driver "couldn't make enough running legal". So, the driver cheats on the book. Has an accident, complete log audits are done for the past 180 days, per the law...the company audits, but then the other side employs the auditor, and depending on the circumstances...the DOT does also....and if examples of cheating appear...that can be sold to the jury in a courtroom, be it a criminal or civil issue....its all done but the crying. If you have an accident, and there is a fatality, and its found that you have cheated on your logbook...you are more than likely going to prison for vehicular homicide, and you will also find yourself looking at liens and judgments for the rest of your life. Bankruptcy will not make them go away. Go ahead....cheat on the logs for a few extra pennies....at some point it will come back to bite you on the ass. If you can't satisfy your financial needs doing it legally....find another employer or career field. |
Originally Posted by Skywalker
Originally Posted by matcat
...For the sake of legality, you should log legally, but at the same time you will not make as much money if you do log legally. The reality of it is the current system is setup to punish you if you do it legal, and reward you if you do it illegally....
If you cannot make sufficient money running legally, then you need to do one of two things...find an employer who will compensate you well enough to satisfy you financially for running legal, or find another career field. If your mindset is geared to "getting over on, or beating the system"....then you are in the stages of beginning to take the long walk off the short pier and wearing concrete overshoes. If you think you are getting away with anything...please permit me to dispel that notion. Right this very minute there are probably more than just a couple of "former drivers" sitting in prison or at home shaking their heads in wonder or sadness....their lives and their families lives have been destroyed financially....all because the driver "couldn't make enough running legal". So, the driver cheats on the book. Has an accident, complete log audits are done for the past 180 days, per the law...the company audits, but then the other side employs the auditor, and depending on the circumstances...the DOT does also....and if examples of cheating appear...that can be sold to the jury in a courtroom, be it a criminal or civil issue....its all done but the crying. If you have an accident, and there is a fatality, and its found that you have cheated on your logbook...you are more than likely going to prison for vehicular homicide, and you will also find yourself looking at liens and judgments for the rest of your life. Bankruptcy will not make them go away. Go ahead....cheat on the logs for a few extra pennies....at some point it will come back to bite you on the ass. If you can't satisfy your financial needs doing it legally....find another employer or career field. Stay legal, it is the best thing to do, and like the quoted poster said, if you aren't making enough go elsewhere, because it's only going to get worse :( |
Matcat, you said that drivers are pressured by dispatchers (and by extension the company) to falsify logs. I have no practical experience in the industry, but I have gotten the impression from reading this forum and one other forum that it is common in the industry. Drivers falsify logs to make more money. Companies look the other way because it gets their loads delivered on time, and drivers take the fall if they have accidents or get ticketed.
That's why I'm looking favorably on Werner. I'm sure there are downsides to working there, but there is no falsifying of the paperless logs and no pressure to do so. (Or so I hear.) |
If you crash a big truck you are most likely on your own
with correct logs or illegal logs. Truck crashes are a mess |
Amen to that Zipy46,
I can only add if you survive the wreck without injury good luck finding a job. Now if you are injured like I was and are out for 6 months like I have been, think about the financial toll. Workman comp doesn't go a long way. Now that Im released to get a job.... It's even harder. Oh and another thing... I was given two warnings for my wreck. Illegal lane usage and not having an updated log. My last entry was around 930am when I stopped for fuel and it was 530 when the wreck had happen. I was found not at fault for the wreck by DOT and my company. I also pulled a 10 year history last week from the DMV and nothing shows in my history. I still list the wreck and the warnings though. |
I can testify that your accident doesn't even have to involve injury or even major damage to screw you over. As far as werner as paperless logging, go ahead if that is what you want, but I guarantee it won't take you long until you start looking for ways to cheat a little here and there. I don't care how good you say you are, or how honest and perfect you say you are, there is not a driver out there that doesn't cheat on the log book, even if it is only occasionally. If you where to follow that little green book to the DOT (no pun intended :) ) You would either get fired from your company for not doing your job satisfactory, or you will get very frustrated with what you earn for the work you do and how you are treated for doing it.
A major problem isn't really the companies though, it is people in suits making up rules and laws that have no clue what the heck is really going on, who just want to shut up the rest of the people who complain about the trucks when they too know nothing about what is going on. |
Originally Posted by Chasing Daylight
Originally Posted by Jumbo
Who really does it "BY THE BOOK"? I try to as close as I can but I have gone back a day and redid it to get another half hour or hour. We don;t have a problem getting loads and backhauls delivered in the allotted time but I have run a out of hours 90 miles from home. Who is gonna sit and wait for that? Not me.
But from reading this board, it would seem that there are a few companies where you can do nothing but run legal. Companies that appear to be checking logs against the Qualcomm and fuel receipts. I've seen guys speak of instances where they had to move off of a dock, 100 yards to a parking area at the shipper and had to log it as driving or they would be busted on their logs. Seems a bit extreme to me, but if you check out some of the company threads (Crete/Shaffer come to mind) you'll see what I am talking about. Like scaling @ a CAT scale, it will take you at least 15 minutes. It's like telling a driver that's at a truck stop sleeping and someone comes along and plays loud music so you can't sleep. You move the truck as to deal with a confritation (sp?) that isn't driving. How long did it take you to move that truck to another space? Not 7 1/2 minutes. DOT gives you 15 minutes. So that is just crazy with those. I will add my own answer though, but wanted to state how i felt about the (Crete/shaffer) issue. They are under DOT eyes they don't want to mess up, that's why! I would say anyhow |
Originally Posted by Skywalker
Originally Posted by matcat
...For the sake of legality, you should log legally, but at the same time you will not make as much money if you do log legally. The reality of it is the current system is setup to punish you if you do it legal, and reward you if you do it illegally....
If you cannot make sufficient money running legally, then you need to do one of two things...find an employer who will compensate you well enough to satisfy you financially for running legal, or find another career field. If your mindset is geared to "getting over on, or beating the system"....then you are in the stages of beginning to take the long walk off the short pier and wearing concrete overshoes. If you think you are getting away with anything...please permit me to dispel that notion. Right this very minute there are probably more than just a couple of "former drivers" sitting in prison or at home shaking their heads in wonder or sadness....their lives and their families lives have been destroyed financially....all because the driver "couldn't make enough running legal". So, the driver cheats on the book. Has an accident, complete log audits are done for the past 180 days, per the law...the company audits, but then the other side employs the auditor, and depending on the circumstances...the DOT does also....and if examples of cheating appear...that can be sold to the jury in a courtroom, be it a criminal or civil issue....its all done but the crying. If you have an accident, and there is a fatality, and its found that you have cheated on your logbook...you are more than likely going to prison for vehicular homicide, and you will also find yourself looking at liens and judgments for the rest of your life. Bankruptcy will not make them go away. Go ahead....cheat on the logs for a few extra pennies....at some point it will come back to bite you on the ass. If you can't satisfy your financial needs doing it legally....find another employer or career field. http://www.whas11.com/news/local/sto....215bae7f.html Notice it's stated he was running 9 hours over his alloted time! This being it caused the crash per the courts/judge/jury, whoever! THis is what can happen to you! Understand if the accident is in no way your fault and someone sue's you and they find you was over your hours of service you can be held accountable for that accident. Truckers are prime canidates for suing! You must understand to be caught off guard can kill your career and or put you in prison. Take that how you want, but I know it's facts :). Good luck to you all! I am game with whatever you chose :) |
If you drove 9 hours at an average speed of 55
that would be 495 miles. If you got .30 cpm that would be 148.50 Such a waste of lifes __________________________________________________ _____ A responsible company would fire someone for hot log books, ...and on the other hand a responsible company would also make sure they set it up where the driver can maximize his available hours and make a living. ...but I am dreaming again...so never mind :roll: __________________________________________________ _____ The little black box would have begun to set the world of trucking right side up again. The herd would have thinned real quick had that have happened. |
if i did fudge my book, i would shave some wait time off and back my end time earlier to show my 10 starting earlier so i can get to my next stop earlier. but i would only do that if i could get enough rest in only a 7-8 hour break.
i may also make a few days dissapear and re-appear as a 34 hour break if i needed to. that IS of course if i fudged my log. which i dont |
I make my logbook match what I do as closely as possible. There are always places where you have a choice to make about which 15 minute block is the most correct, and there are times that applying the laws and company policy will put you in technical violation.
Like at my company we are required to include the entire 15 minute block when we hang up the fuel pump as on duty. So lets say that I start out from home at 8am and it is 51 miles to my fuel stop. I can make that trip in 51 minutes and fuel within 6 minutes. So I can stop the fuel pump at 8:58 and log the 51 miles of driving in 45 minutes followed by 15 minutes to fuel. The only problem is that this exceeds the companies speed limit policy coming in at 68 miles per hour. Oops dang I just made an illegal log entry. Did I log it as I did it? Yes. Was it completely legal and within company policy? No. So my personal rule is to have it match within 15 minutes of actual events. In another case we are required to log 30 minutes for any DOT roadside inspection that includes the times listed on the report. Last month I had an inspection that only took ten minutes from 9:20 to 9:30 and I was on a tight schedule so I couldn't hang around for and extra fifteen minutes at the end, so I logged the 30 minutes from 9:00 to 9:30. I left the weight station at 9:31 with a legal looking log, but I was actually driving for 15 minutes between 9:00 and 9:15 that showed on my log as on duty at the weigh station. This amounts to required falsification of logbooks by the very rules that we are supposed to follow. With such restrictive laws it is impossible to follow them completely. Follow the spirit of the law and you will be fine. Stay within your 14 and take a full 10 hour break. If you think about it there is no reason to exceed your 14 if you are going to take a break anyway because no matter when you take your break during your trip you will arrive at the same time in theory. |
What company do you work for where you can get away with
logging legal and still make a fair living... :shock: Thats what i wish to know :arrow: |
zipy, that's the 10 million dollar question, because I'm sure if they knew all the reluctant outlaws would be breaking down their door.
Rawlco I can understand the whole 15 minute block thing, It's not something we can do anything about. Most bears are looking for past 11 14 or 70, they understand that not every activity fits into a perfect 15 minute span. some go long, others short, but it's they way the system works. |
Originally Posted by all18wheels
if i did fudge my book, i would shave some wait time off and back my end time earlier to show my 10 starting earlier so i can get to my next stop earlier. but i would only do that if i could get enough rest in only a 7-8 hour break.
i may also make a few days dissapear and re-appear as a 34 hour break if i needed to. that IS of course if i fudged my log. which i dont If you can stop for 8 hours then you should log it as a split break. Remind you that you should understand how to split break. Many drivers don't and log it illegal and when I play out the day like it really happened I find you would of been legal had you just stayed 1 more hour here and logged it like you did it. Seriously I find that more and more every day. Many drivers are running legal but they are logging it illegal which makes it illegal. Or if they just knew wait if I stay 30 more minutes I can split break and drive 6 more hours and stop for 2 hours and be on the road again. Split breaking is the answer to the drivers running legal, however they refuse to believe it! |
Originally Posted by Rawlco
I make my logbook match what I do as closely as possible. There are always places where you have a choice to make about which 15 minute block is the most correct, and there are times that applying the laws and company policy will put you in technical violation.
Like at my company we are required to include the entire 15 minute block when we hang up the fuel pump as on duty. So lets say that I start out from home at 8am and it is 51 miles to my fuel stop. I can make that trip in 51 minutes and fuel within 6 minutes. So I can stop the fuel pump at 8:58 and log the 51 miles of driving in 45 minutes followed by 15 minutes to fuel. The only problem is that this exceeds the companies speed limit policy coming in at 68 miles per hour. Oops dang I just made an illegal log entry. Did I log it as I did it? Yes. Was it completely legal and within company policy? No. So my personal rule is to have it match within 15 minutes of actual events. In another case we are required to log 30 minutes for any DOT roadside inspection that includes the times listed on the report. Last month I had an inspection that only took ten minutes from 9:20 to 9:30 and I was on a tight schedule so I couldn't hang around for and extra fifteen minutes at the end, so I logged the 30 minutes from 9:00 to 9:30. I left the weight station at 9:31 with a legal looking log, but I was actually driving for 15 minutes between 9:00 and 9:15 that showed on my log as on duty at the weigh station. What! I am puzzled by them telling you 30 minutes automatically. DOT even tells you to log the amount of time I had you stopped. The time start and finish is on that inspection. If you was stopped for 15 minutes or less then you should only have to log 15 minutes. Now if you was put out of service you BETTER make sure you stay for the amount of time written on that inspection. But that's just crazy :roll: to make you log 30 every time (like it happens allot). That's telling you to falsify your log actually. They are telling you the amount of time to log when they have proof you was only there for 15 minutes. You would be driving the other 15 minutes (more than likely, right). I always tell drivers log how long it took you (most things are going to take a MINIMUM of 15 minutes) to deal with it. If I tell you to log 15 minutes for fueling and it took you 30 minutes and you log 30. I told you to falsify your log sheet. Now it's plan common sense fuel, loading, scaling etc is going to take @ least that 15 minutes! This amounts to required falsification of logbooks by the very rules that we are supposed to follow. With such restrictive laws it is impossible to follow them completely. Follow the spirit of the law and you will be fine. Stay within your 14 and take a full 10 hour break. If you think about it there is no reason to exceed your 14 if you are going to take a break anyway because no matter when you take your break during your trip you will arrive at the same time in theory. But you should follow your company policy, however I would challenge them on the fact I was only there 15 minutes and I have proof. You are telling me to log 15 more minutes of on-duty time when I was actually driving! That's how I would get my point acrossed. Boy oh boy if DOT or an attorney was to listen to the conversation. Some auditors don't get it! :shock: |
Originally Posted by Rawlco
I make my logbook match what I do as closely as possible. There are always places where you have a choice to make about which 15 minute block is the most correct, and there are times that applying the laws and company policy will put you in technical violation.
Like at my company we are required to include the entire 15 minute block when we hang up the fuel pump as on duty. So lets say that I start out from home at 8am and it is 51 miles to my fuel stop. I can make that trip in 51 minutes and fuel within 6 minutes. So I can stop the fuel pump at 8:58 and log the 51 miles of driving in 45 minutes followed by 15 minutes to fuel. The only problem is that this exceeds the companies speed limit policy coming in at 68 miles per hour. Oops dang I just made an illegal log entry. Did I log it as I did it? Yes. Was it completely legal and within company policy? No. So my personal rule is to have it match within 15 minutes of actual events. In another case we are required to log 30 minutes for any DOT roadside inspection that includes the times listed on the report. Last month I had an inspection that only took ten minutes from 9:20 to 9:30 and I was on a tight schedule so I couldn't hang around for and extra fifteen minutes at the end, so I logged the 30 minutes from 9:00 to 9:30. I left the weight station at 9:31 with a legal looking log, but I was actually driving for 15 minutes between 9:00 and 9:15 that showed on my log as on duty at the weigh station. This amounts to required falsification of logbooks by the very rules that we are supposed to follow. With such restrictive laws it is impossible to follow them completely. Follow the spirit of the law and you will be fine. Stay within your 14 and take a full 10 hour break. If you think about it there is no reason to exceed your 14 if you are going to take a break anyway because no matter when you take your break during your trip you will arrive at the same time in theory. |
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