Again what have you contributed other than your Rev. Jim Jones/ David Koresh like ramblings ??? Why do you feel so threatened by someone elses point of view ??? How many trucks do you own ??? I have three w/2 drivers plus myself. My lowest paid driver made $ 71248 W-2 wages last year. So I think I am doing OK..... :)

:roll:
You really need therapy, BD!!

Obviously, you have no point to make, you are not seeking an exchange of opinions or civil discourse, you are just looking for a pointless arguement. Judging by the contrubutions of others, this thread is of value to many, as are the teachings of Dave Ramsey, and the tools offered through Financial Peace University; that's not just my opinion.

I don't want to see this locked, but if we keep this up, that is what will happen; that would be grossly unfair to those who have contributed to making this thread one of quality and value.

I can't prevent your shallow ramblings, or your asinine determination to pick a pointless fight, so I'll leave you to indulge in your own pool of shallowness, negativity, and hostility that is every bit as asinine as it is pointless. Meanwhile, I'll direct my efforts and thoughts to those who have perspectives of value to offer.

Looking at your writting style, and listening to the negativity and hostility that is comming from you, combined with your status an an (now) 84 post wonder, you are sounding a wee bit too much like somebody else who uesd to post here untill he was banned......hmmmmm.....this isn't the most auspicious way to try to make a comeback, is it??

Enjoy, BD!! I'm done with you!!

Why can't you answer the simple, polite questions I posed ??? It is proven fact that people who evade questions by attempting to flip the subject are not capable of answering the question....

I do enjoy your editing of posts to suit your inept attempt to answer though...

Big Diesel:

After giving this matter further thought, it is clear to me that our present path of discourse is destined to fail. This thread isn't supposed to be about me, or you, or any one particular person, other that Dave Ramsey, and his profers of Financial Peace University.

Let's deal with this from an emotionally detached framework, and let's work to get this thread back on course, and keep a positive perspective here.

By your own statements, it is clear that you have certain areas of disagreement with Dave Ramsey. Nothing wrong with that; there are areas where he and I disagree as well. Obviously, many of the callers (but certainally not all!!) who turn to him for help have without question or doubt behaved irresponsibley in their handling of credit.

Other callers have experienced unexpected life changing events such as natural disasters, fires, or protracted illness or disabilities. Sometimes, it's the caller who has suffered the injury or illness, other times, it is a family member or loved one. Some callers are dealing with the loss of a child or a spouse, while still others may be dealing with a parent in need of extended care, but who is lacking in the financial resources needed to provide that care.

Now, if you disagree with Dave Ramsey, or you are at odds with the ways in which Financial Peace University teaches people to handle situations such as these, then perhaps you might be specific in pointing out you areas of disagreement, explain why you think his advice is wrong, and offer other alternatives to people in need of help.

Some callers are not in dire financial straights, yet they are not in the position of financial strength that they could be in. Other callers are simply trying to learn more about financial planning, and the possible pitfalls that planning may entail.

For Example:

Dealing with stock brokers who want to churn a portfolio, or recommend stock picks thtat work for them, but not their cliens, or an insurance agent who is wanting to push annuities or sell whole life policies as an investment vehichle. Another example would be a Realtor or Real Estate agent encouraging people to buy as much of a home as they can possibly afford, under the guise of counting on apreciated values to stengthen their long term financial goals.

Now, the fact that you disagree with Dave Ramsey is not neccessarily a bad thing. There are areas where I disagree with him too. Since you disagree with D.R. and F.P.U., what would you encourage people to do differently.

You are correct in stating that there are some people who should never use credit cards. While I do understand that this does not negate the fact that there are others who DO use credit responsibly, the fact is that all too many people who use credit cards as a source of income, for buying things that they don't need, with money they don't have.

Dave Ramsey is saying, in essence, that these people should treat credit as a recovering alcoholic or drug addict would treat their former substance abuse and dependance; that is, to stay away from using it completely.

Now, again, you obviously don't agree with Dave, so what different advice would you offer these people??

Let's consider our personal disagreements to be water under the bridge, let's work together to keep a positive framework going, and let's work together to make this discussion work for others who are following it!!

RedRaven, Part II

Gettin Back To Where We Left Off:

RedRaven:
I wonder, do you have a good insurance policy should something happen to you, and you are injured, and can no longer work?... One that would pay all of your expenses, for the rest of your life?...

Useless:
Having long term disability insurance is certainally important, but while affordability is an issue for lower income earners, the quality of the coverage is also important. It's easy to pontifficate about the need for it, but when someone is spending his/her hard earned income on such frivolous things as food, clothing, shelter, and utilities, it isn't something that everyone can afford; sucks to be sure, it demonstrates a considerable degree of shortsightedness in our society, but I didn't write the rules here. That is just the way it is.

As for me and my family?? We are covered in that respect, but we are more atypical in financial terms. If you can afford it, then by all means, you should get it.

RedRaven:
IMO, the most valuable asset you can have is your health. As we all know even the word "health" has been used through the centuries when one makes a toast to someone else. "Cheers, and good health to you.", etc...

RedRaven:
What would you do tomorrow if you lost your health, either by accidental injury, or simply from disease?...

How would you survive financially?... All of a sudden you no longer have the income to support your "lifestyle"... Do you have the millions saved to support you for the rest of your days?...

Useless:Well, here again, RR, my circumstances were different.

I DID suddenly lose my health when I "Latexed"; I nearly died from it, and it took several months to get back on my feet; my immune system was very seriously damaged, (and remains compromised to thi day) so I was very susceptible to every virus and "bug" that was out there. Fortunately, even though my career as a nurse was ended, I still had a business to turn to.

Now there ARE ways of dealing with this, which we will discuss as we go along.

Before we leave this matter, there is something else I do wish to point out;

I came out of that life threatening experience a different person than I was before I experienced it; when I was told by my doctor that if that Latex reaction ever repeated itself, I would not likely survive to tell about it", along with being "laid up", I became rather bitter.

For all of the friction, for all of the endless demands, for all of the pressure, and for all of the burnout which had set in, Nursing was a true calling for me.
(Hint: One major sign of "True Calling" is that you will first battle against it before you accept it!!")

Red Raven:
I'm quite curious about this... I've learned through my own life experiences, that even if you save money, and pay for everything you want, that you can end up in a bad situation should you find yourself suddenly injured, can no longer work in your chosen profession, and the bills continue to come in the mail every month...

Useless:
That is true, which is why it is so important to see through the myth of "Saving your way to prosperity". This is a perfect example of why I always preach that money is the SEED of your labors, not the FRUIT of your labors.

I'm not a Christian, but if you read The Bible, in The Book of Genises, you will find the passage which reads "By the sweat of your brow shall you sew your seed, and in sorrow shall you eat of it ."

When we spend money on neccessities or on unneccessary things to satisfy our wants, or desires for gratification, we are "Eating our seeds"....meaning that every dollar and every dime that we spend, for neccessities or otherwise, are dollars and dimes that we can not invest; SEEDS that we can not sew, SEEDS that can not bring fourth a harvest, and money that can not work for us in the future.

Now, where TRUE neccessities are involved, we are not so much"stealing from ourselves", and obviously, if we have a job, we need suitable transportation, car insurance, fuel, etc, in order to get to work and bring home a paycheck; but even there, many dollars are spent because of improper planning and poor choices.

RedRaven:
I've learned that you don't spend money, unless you absolutely have too... You buy the necessities of life, and you had better put the rest, if there is any left over away in the bank, or in some financial institute that will make your money work for you... Since most banks these days are offering more in fee costs to have an account, then they are in interest paid to your account(s).

In terms of laying a solid financial foundation, the purpose of a bank should be to have a place to safely park yopur money which will be used to pay your monthly living expenses; 60 days worth, and nothing else. A bank IS NOT the place to look for help in planning your financial future.

Your money can not work hard for you in a bank. Look to Mutual funds for that; for very short term savings, you may wish to consider consider a money market account. Other than that, look outside of a bank for financial guidance and planning.

To Be Continued:

Gotta go pick up my daughter, I'll get back to you with Part III.

Useless...

I will be happy to engage you in a healthy and interesting dialogue regarding Dave Ramsay.... But.... I am on my way home after 2 weeks out and it is my daughters 4th Bday on Saturday. I will continue this Monday.

I was at the point of just locking this thread and be done with it, BUT, after reading the last three posts I will give it ONE last chance to change course. I think it is an important subject that MANY could learn from as long as it doesn't turn back into a P!$$Ing match.


Ridge

B.D.;

I look foreword to dicussing this with you as well, and hopefully, others will benefit by following our discussion, and sharing their perspectives, contributing their insights, and questions as well.

So, your daughter is about to hit the "Big 04" !!!

That's wonderful. Our daughter is now 12; seems as though 4 was just a few months ago; they grow up so fast!

Well, BD!! Have a safe run home, & take care of that precious little girl!!
We'll see you Monday!

Peace,
Useless!!
[/url]

:? I don't get it...How can anyone claim that Ramsey is doing some sort of harm?
OK, the guys a little repetitive. OK, I get tired of listening to it after a while. But that doesn't lessen the impact or truth of his message.

In my book he speaks wisely. :)

I wouldn't necessarily use the word "harm," but here's what I have observed over the years. Yes, the debt reduction stuff is repetitive and, in my opinion, a little over-simplified. That's fine. If people need a motivator, it's hard to argue that anyone is doing it better.

The issues that leave me scratching my head tend to involve the investment advice. While it's not as prominent as the debt reduction advice, it sneaks into the show every now and then. Quite frankly, I find it to be dead wrong about 25% of the time. Now, investment advice is, in my mind, something that should always be checked against a second and third opinion. It seems that devoted followers of the show are all too comfortable hearing one suggestion and thinking, "That's the answer."

To provide background to my viewpoint, I was a financial advisor before I got sick of people and decided to drive a truck instead. As I said before, I'm just one guy and my opinions are worth nothing to the general public, so the fact that I regularly disagree with Dave Ramsey is a non-issue in the big picture of things. I just know that I was very thorough and very diligent in my work, and enjoyed a good degree of success at it. Whenever a call brings to mind a client of mine that was in a similar situation, out of habit I compare Dave's advice to my own. If I immediately think, "Hold on Dave..." this tells me that people should, at the very least, get a second opinion. From the reaction of the callers, I doubt that many of them do so.

Can you be a little more specific? I have been investing for many (about 35) years and it seems to me that his advice is pretty good - especially since it is directed toward people with almost no investing skill.

What exactly has been dead wrong?

I don't exactly have a compilation of topics in mind.

For one example, recommending that someone buy an equity index mutual fund is a pretty reasonable suggestion. A few times when I've heard this recommendation though, based on the dollar amounts in question, an ETF would be more cost-effective, both at the transaction level and on an ongoing basis.

Another issue that tends to get a one-size-fits-all response is the permanent life insurance/annuity discussion. Having been on the other end, I'll be the first to admit that insurance companies push these products because they generate strong revenue. The other reality is that we were compensated quite handsomely for selling term insurance as well, because the insuerers know that 97% of policies will never pay a dime. There are plenty of instances where a permanent policy, in conjunction with an adequate term policy, is a perfect fit for a family's long term goals. On a radio show like this one, these things are dismissed out of hand. Due to the number of people who have been wrongly advised to buy them, there is a tendency to want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I haven't really caught the show all that often recently, so no specific cases come immediately to mind, but these are some of the times when I tend to have a "Hold on a second" reaction. At the very least, some more questioning seems appropriate.

:roll: Can you even comprehend what the use of a Nuclear Bomb would mean? Not only will it have killed hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people, the enviromental disaster would be just as huge. Then there would be the condemnations from every country on this planet. The radiation fallout would be massive and far reaching. Remember Chernobyl?

Gone are the days of carpet bombing campaigns were civilian deaths were collateral damage. Gone are the days of leveling entire major cities, ie Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Dave Ramsey is not much like Suze Orman. Orman spends a lot of time catering to women. And I think the reason she does that is because it is a little easier to sell women a "take charge of your life" kit. Most men won't buy such a thing.

I agree with Ramsey that no one should ever buy whole life insurance. Ever.

If nukes are used at some point in the future, the result will be about the same as it was last time............a real long period of silence. Environmental impact will be negligible - at least on a world wide scale.
We should ignore Iran's quest to develop nukes. Just make sure the fuses on ours are ready.


Many people never honestly give fiscal health much thought - regardless of what was taught. I have two daughters. One is like me and saves and watches what she is doing and her older sister spends money like there is no tomorrow, believing that she will always be able to rake it in like she is now. She'll learn, but it will be too late.

Real Estate:
We own rental properties; 2 townhouses.
We built them in 1985, lived in one, rented the other. Eventually we got them both paid for.
Then we bought a house in 2002.
Now it's paid for.

But all this "Flip This House" nonsense?........People were asking to get burned, and Man, are they getting burned! Instead of turning that extra 25G into 100G they're turning it into a debt.
Shoulda listened to Dave on that one. But we're glad things are the way they are in our house.
I'll turn 62 next week. And Lemmee Tell Ya it feels mighty good to know that I could hang up my jockstrap any time I want to!
But I'll work for a while.......I want to make DAMNED SURE we have enough in reserve!

I've seen several misconceptions in this thread about the teachings of Dave Ramsey.

The article that Dave is bad at math seems to make sense and would in a lot of cases, but his idea of ignoring the interest rate and paying off the smallest debt first is just a means to motivate people by getting the ball rolling. A very large part of our society needs this sort of kick in the butt and proof of progress to motivate them.

Dave advocates term life insurance over whole life and my personal belief is that advice is right on now matter where you are in life. Whole life is much more expensive than term and honestly, the return you will get from it is pretty lame. You will always get a better return from long-term investing than you will from a whole life policy.

Some people can use credit cards and pay them off every month, but the reality is that the vast majority of people don't practice this. His solution is that you just cut them up and live on cash. What's wrong with that? As he's stated, you can always go back to your credit card debt filled life any time you want to. They really will give those cards to anyone.

Does he profit from the people who listen to him? Of course he does! He also gives a lot of free advice and products day after day also. Name for me a motivational speaker, financial advisor, author or radio host who doesn't profit from what they teach? (I'm pretty confident that we can throw Tony Robbins into that category also.) You can get all of Dave's material (including his radio show) either free from your local library or at a very minimal cost if you shop around. I bought 3 of his books some time ago for around 10 bucks each from Christianbook.com. You can also catch his show on many FM or AM channels. He's in nearly every major market, you don't have to get XM or Sirius to listen to him.

He paints with a broad brush because he has too, however, if you will listen to his program he will get cater to the specific circumstances of many of his callers. IMO, he gives solid, sound financially advice that would work for everyone if they chose to apply it. Unfortunately we live in a society where if you want to do things like rack up a bunch of debt and file bankruptcy or sleep with your Whitehouse intern, all is forgiven because you're just like your neighbors down the street. It seems that no one has any shame.

The biggest lesson that Dave is trying to teach is personal responsibility. What's wrong with that? Obviously, it's not very popular anymore. IMO, he makes on helluva glass of Kool-Aid...

Yeah... Thank God the neighborhoods of Texas (or Kennebunkport) are rife with cokeheads who drink too much, sign up for the Guard to avoid the draft, and then have Daddy call in and tell them to say you actually showed up for all your duty time!

Otherwise, "some" people would NEVER get to be King!

Just sayin' :wink:

Huh?? What did I say?? :lol:

Useless, I think you confused my post with that guy who likes baseball!!

I'm only reading this thread because I am totally irresponsible with money! I hope to learn something, or at least get motivated to make some changes! :lol:

Dang!! I just had the shortest career as a financial genius known to man!! :cry: :cry: :cry: :lol:

Didn't even have time to place a bet on..... I mean invest in the Stock Market!! :evil:

Oh well..... I prefer beer to Champagne anyway!! :wink:

first don't pick on Useless it was i that posted that

if you don;t know him or lissen then WHY are you posting on this...?

now RedRaven as to me getting my stepson a Cadillac not that i need to but 1st he works 6 nites a week, 2nd he is going to school full time, "computer science" and he is paying for it, he has always wanted a nice car so i made a deal with him if he worked 5 days a week and he could keep his grades at B+ (gpa 3.25) or better for a year as well as doing the things around the house. i would buy him a nice car. i never said it was NEW did i..? what i said was he's driving around in a very nice Cadillac STS and it was paid for when i gave it to him. and we pay nothing gas or otherwise he does and as to if you will reread MY post you woulld see do i have millions saved NO but i can live well for the rest of my life off what i have in the bank now, and yes i do have good insurance if you save then it's no big deal and if you have insurance then what's the big deal, and if you have paid for everything you realy don't have alot of bills to cover do you
btw when i was 14 i took a summer job and saved my money and at the end of summer i paid CASH for my first car a 65 mustang convertible "couldn't driver it for 3 months" but it was mine and i have never made a car payment in my life and i have never had a credit card the only thing i have ever made payments on is when i buy a house and then for no more than 5 years.

if you will reread me post you will see what my wife was going to get for her birthday will she got her RAM yesterday. it is just what she wanted body color and all. and NO it's not new (she didn't want NEW and i would never buy a NEW car or truck) it's great when you plan ahead and save for the things you want. you think you are good at talking down a car dealer try taking a car out for a test drive (swing by the bank)and when you get back say i will pay THIS for it and lay the CASH out "i've never had to pick the cash back up and leave without what i want" you spend less money what you have money.

it's all about planning. if you plan ahead you can have all the things you want and when life sends something your way if you have planed ahead it's just a bump in the road.

They do teach finance in school. Hell, even back in the early 70s, I remember learning about the stock market and the importance of investing in the 3rd grade.

You are right there. Im happy to teach my kids about finance. I really dont care too much about other peoples kids and whether their parents teach them. Sorry to be harsh. But I enjoy raising my kids to have an ADVANTAGE over other kids. When someone has an advantage, that also means that someone has to be at the bottom. I might get a little heat for saying this but, having lazy parents who dont teach their kids well can be a good thing for those who do teach their kids well.

You are right. Way too many people think that SS was supposed to be enough to retire on and dont save anything for themselves. I saw an article not too long ago which showed a 25 year old today needs to be saving and investing at least 500 bucks a month for retirement otherwise they are going to be screwed at retirement. You can tell young people this all you want but it still wont change many of them. We live in a free country and with that freedom comes the freedom for people to be stupid with money. Personally I would be ok with getting rid of SS completely. I dont need the government to save for me and I really dont think I should save for anyone else.

Well that is a dramatic post...but a urban legend. No old people eat cat food in this country. Hell, canned cat food is more expensive than many cheap canned human food. This urban legend goes back to when Al Gore lied about this when campaining.

I really dont notice anything like that. I see all the good. I guess im an optomist. I love living in the greatest country in the world during the greatest time in history. Instead of dwelling on the negative and things like how stupid people are being with money. I enjoy looking at the positive and how many people are doing great in this country.

"He who dances with sheep" said:

Sheep, I've been following, and don't really disagree with anything you've said much, but....

MOST average people DO have mortgages and maybe even a car payment. (Doesn't have to be NEW, but still maybe a couple hundred a month. Most 25 year olds, if married, also probably have a young and growing family with ALL the expenses that entails.

MOST financial gurus say that we should "pay ourselves" 10% of our income (before or after taxes?) each month and save or invest it.

Do you think it is realistic, or usually possible, that a 25 yr old with a young family, is making $5,000 a month? ($60,000 a year?)

I know it's not your fault if they aren't. And from what you say, you could barely care. But, I was just curious if you thought this was an "easily achievable task?"

Curiously wondering, WHAT (if any) role you think the government, or society in general, should play in ENSURING that wages ARE that high, or that cost of living is LOW enough to allow such savings per month?

Or are we all just "on our own" at the mercy of "market influences?" Those who COME from money "make it." Those who start out poor, have no chance?

One of my favorite dialogues from the movies is in Abence of Malice, where Paul Newman asks: "who do I see about that?" to which Wilford Brimley replies: "Ain't no one to SEE about that!"

So don't think I'm "whining" when I point out that, just like Trucking is geared toward the SOLO driver..... Life economics are geared toward the TWO INCOME family. A single person, if he wants a house and car, bears the full burden of the cost on his OWN single salary. Not sure I believe it, but some say that "Two can live as cheaply as one." If this is true.... they sure have a heck of an INCOME advantage over the single man/woman! Where are the BUSH tax credits for US???

I really DO value your opinions on such matters, so.... please give some thought to this and give me your BEST answer... not just a "convenient" one.

Before you repeat yourself about SAVING up to pay cash for a car, etc. Let me point out that MOST 25 year olds may have just worked their way through college, and may still have student loans to pay off as well. How many years have they had to SAVE up for a decent car? At the amount mentioned, if it were possible, it would take ALL his savings up to that point just to afford a $20,000 car if he paid cash for it.

Thanks!

Hobo

Yes, I think its realistic.
When I was 22 I saving and only making 8 bucks an hour. In fact I was working retail at home depot during its hayday. I was putting quite a bit of everyone of my paychecks in company stock. This was the time HD stock was doing very very well. When i quit after 5 years I was making a around 30 grand a year as an assistant manager and had over 90K in home depot stock.
How did I find that money to invest? Pretty simple. I sold my car, rode a bike or took a bus to work. I didnt have things like cable TV or a telephone. I made do with pay phones and a beeper. I ate a lot of dollar store mac and cheese and top ramen. And when my buddies wanted to do things like hit the nightclubs, I chose not to go most of the time.
What came from this? When I graduated college, I put 60 grand down on a 90 grand house. Which was really nice.
You have to remember there are many ways to save money.
Investing
Side jobs
Even gaining equity your home is saving.
I can honestly say that i have been working since I was 16 and I have never had a paycheck I didnt save at least something. I also dont finance cars. I wont drive something I can pay cash for. Sure early in life I drove some real crap that i paid cash for. But over the years I have built up enough to drive nicer cars and pay cash.
So yes, I do think a 25 year old being able to save that kind of money is reasonable. It takes some hard work and sacrifice....but it can be done. I did it and Im really not that smart of a guy....lol

That's just wrong, hobo. :lol: :lol: :lol:

What?!? You've never seen the movie "Dances with Wolves??"

What ELSE is a "Sheepdancer?" :lol: :lol:

Besides, Sheepy knows I'm just razzin him! Them Indians sure could get creative with names, eh? Although, I can't help thinking that "Dances with Sheep" was a bit of a putdown, don't you think? With all the Buffalo, Mountain Lions, Horses, and whatnot that the Indians lived amongst and revered, Why would anyone name his kid "Dances with Sheep?" :lol:

You've HEARD that joke about the two dogs, haven't you? :shock:

Hey.... don't look at ME!!! "I" didn't pick his login!! :wink:

BTW.... I actually slowed down a bit last week to let one of YOUR kids cross the road safely!! I really AM a nice guy! I just play an AZZ on the Internet! :wink: 8)

That is where my name came from. For many many years, my screen name on AOL, MSN, Yahoo ect...is Danceswthsheep. When i came to this board I just shortened it to sheepdancer. The name comes from way back when i was at University of Texas and my frat brothers found out I was moving to arkansas. From that point on my "frat name" was Dances with Sheep.

\

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I gotta give you credit, Sheepdancer! You got cajones!!! To keep, and promulgate, a FRAT NAME on here shows you are very self assured!

Remember that movie with Glenn Ford?? Don't remember the title. He moved into cattle country in Texas, or thereabouts, and wanted to raise SHEEP! This was a REAL part of American history! Without the BRAVE men who chose to "dance with sheep," we'd ALL still be wearing LEATHER clothes! :lol:

Of course, if you went to Australia, you'd probably be revered as a Maji!"

But then, you'd have to lower your standards where FELONS are concerned.... being a Penal Colony and all! :lol:

Dancing with sheep is actually pretty simple, if you have the right type of boots! What brand do you endorse? :lol:

Okay.... Wabbit!! THAT was wrong!! :wink:

I really havent seen too many sheep in person. Im a bit of a city boy. And really we dont have many sheep in this part of arkansas...only chickens.
However, not too long ago I was at the county fair with my family and they had sheep. I handed my wife my camera and I was going to try to dance with one and get a picture. I found out two things. Sheep dont like people grabbing their front legs. And those little future farmers of america kids get really angry when you mess with their sheep....Oops

That's too funny! :lol: :lol: :lol:

You should have known better than to mess with another mans' sheep. :twisted:

Useless wrote

I've never heard him push real estate on anyone. He always says its usually a good investment BUT if you don't have much money it's not a good investment. It will bit you.
Have you ever heard him talk about murphy moving into your spare bed room and bringing his friends broke, desprate and stupid????
He Also says that you should never invest in anything you don't understand.
He refers people with questions about investing to his ELP's (endorsed local providers). He makes no money from this refferal. Just that you get the help from a person with the heart of a teacher.
There is also a disclaimer that says you should additional see the services of a compent professional.

Flood, first let me say this; This piece you quoted didn't come from my post... :wink:

Also, sorry if I confused you with anyone else... The posts were so long, they eventually just seemed to meld one into the other... I think I was a bit tired, when I first read them... :lol: :wink:

Second question I would ask to SheepDancer is;

When you were 22, or, 25, were you living on your own paying rent, on that $8.00 per hour, or were you living at home with your parents, or, with other "family", or, friends?...

To Flood...

If you buy used vehicles that's one thing. But, from your post it appeared you had bought a "new" vehicle for your step son... Also, you didn't explain that he had been "earning" the vehicle in other ways. It just came across as you just gave him a car, period.

So, not looking for an arguement, I'm just responding to what I read... :wink:

I would also just like to add, that if you buy a new vehicle it is cheaper in the long run to own, then buying a used vehicle... I bought my vehicle brand new, cash you could say, since they wouldn't take $16,400.00 in cash, I had to give them a check... :wink: But, still bought, and paid for my vehicle outright, no loan, nothing. Had title in hand the day I brought it home. I've owned it 18 years now, and as I believe I stated before it now has cost me less than $1,000.00 per year to own...

When you buy used, you don't know what your getting. It can be a lemon, it can have mechanical problems your not aware of, etc... It can end up costing in mechanical repair costs in some cases more than the vehicle is worth...

I don't know how many years you saved before you bought your car with cash. Which you stated you sacrificed your opportunities to go out to clubs with friends, and ate a malnourishing diet for a period of time. But, you shouldn't have to "suffer" in other ways, just to be able to afford to buy anything... That's the point I'm making as well...

Everyone in this country should be able to make a decent wage for the job they do... Doesn't matter if you are on the low end of the wage scale, or the high end. They just announced on the news, that corporations are cutting back again on raise percentages for 2008... They are cutting them too 3.8 percent. They stated that most corporations paid average raises of 5 percent in 1990...

So, that said, if wages are actually decreasing while inflation, and cost keep rising, if anyone can find a way to save "serious" money, without it hurting them (suffering), to do so, then they are lucky...

This isn't supposed to be a pain/pleasure situation. It was always said, that if you worked hard, you could make a good living, in this country. Well, there are many who do work hard, and they still have situations that they could not have predicted, that have set them back financially, such as illness, death in the family, injury, disability, etc...

Also, if you are married, you are fortunate because regardless of the jobs, you for the most part these days have a two income family... If you are single, you are screwed... They take the most taxes out of those who are single, housing, whether rental, or, purchasing a home is very expensive, that unless your in the 1% of the population making those millioins, and nowadays, Billions. Your not going to have it easy to save much, for anything...

It also depends on what years you were referring too... In recent years, the entire countries economic's has been messed up. The middle class is disappearing, and it has been stated as fact that this country is becoming a contest between the rich, and the poor... People have stated if you lose your middle class, you lose your democracy...

A lot of what happens in life too, also is a matter of being in the right place, and the right time. Not everyone will get the opportunities, or the breaks, others may be fortunate to have come their way...

If it has been stated that most woman (80%) will retire to poverty, they are not referring to single, poor woman. They have included woman from all economic backgrounds. That is scarey, especially if you are a woman in this country.

Woman from divorce, widows with children, etc... Trying to remember back to when I was in grade school, I don't think they even taught us how to use a check book... :lol: :sad:

Then again, depending on where you grew up, and the educational system provided, would also affect what your were taught in public school... There are children who attend private schools, and Ivy league schools, they are going to have advantages that for the most part, the general population won't receive. Also if you come from a poor rural area your public schools won't be as good, as those in more suburban, areas. We all know that is a fact of life in this country. Equal opportunity just isn't the case in fact if you look across this entire nation, in regard to education.

When I was in public school, the schools didn't really focus much on girls, and their needs for a good education. They assumed that they would all end up getting married, and raising families, once they reached adulthood. Girls were not prepared to go onto college either. So, you can't say that everyone got an equal start in their educational life, in this country.

Back when I was a kid, most woman married, and stayed home, raising their kids, while the husband was the "bread winner"... That isn't the case these days. Even toward the end of the 70's, it was clear that even married woman were going to have to take up jobs, to help support their families.

In my own family, my mother worked part-time jobs, while we were in school to add to the families income... Also, my Dad was fortunate to have the GI bill, which helped them to buy their first home, and for him to receive more education, which helped him toward eventually starting his own business. It didn't benefit my mother directly, just indirectly...

I can say this, if my parents even at the age they are now, were for some reason to divorce, my Dad would do well, and my mother would be screwed financially. He has his own business, and she works as a receptionist.

She certainly won't have the financial opportunities he has, and she certainly wouldn't be able to live the lifestyle she does now, if she had to go it alone, on her own...

They are now in their early, to mid 60's... My Dad is semi retired, but, he will still have to work... He's already told me that, even with his own business. Because he didn't grow the business into something that could be "taken over" by others for him to truly retire. He created his business, and made it a "one man show"... Doing it on his own, no employees... That was his choice, and he will pay the price for that choice...

They didn't invest in buying additional properties as investments, because they didn't want the liability, or the aggravation of having rental properties. They wanted a different lifestyle...

It's not easy to own, and operate rental properties, the laws, the liability, the risk of damage to the properties by bad tenants, etc... It wasn't worth it to them... They have however traveled, bought boats, had time to do what they wanted to do... But, it basically was a trade off...

Some people I think also look at life in different ways, thinking they should enjoy life now, before they get to old to enjoy it. Those who think they should save for retirement, then enjoy life. But, often times either die before they get to retire, or, are too ill by then to enjoy the fruits of their labor. So, it very much depends on which end of the spectrum you are from... Depression era people saved, 60's era people lived up to that song "live for today"...

Today, it is difficult to do either... :lol:

You have the attitude that reminds me of something my father once said... He was asked if you, and your children went overboard on a boat, who would you save?... He said, he would save himself, and my mother... When asked why?... He replied, because you can always have more children...

That is kind of how your looking at society, it is save yourself, at the expense of the other guy... In the long run, what goes around, comes around. :wink:

There may come a day, you could find yourself in such a situation, then who will you reach out too?... Most importantly, who will be there willing to save you?... But, hey, if you've got all the bases covered, then I'm sure you'll have nothing to worry about, and your life will continue to be one of optimism, and true happiness.

Just remember those you discard in society usually are the ones who try to rob from you, take your life, and all because basically they were denied the same opportunities you were fortunate to have obtained. That's why there are millions in prison, and we all know that most of them get out of prison eventually, only to re-offend...

If you don't do things right, and equally from the start, then you will never truly have a healthy, well adjusted, peaceful, and productive society... Look at the horror stories of who end up caring for the elderly, in nursing homes, etc...

The low wage earners, with little education, caring for you in your most vulnerable state, elderly, possible ill, disabled, etc., and having to rely on them for your vital daily needs.

Do you think they should be paid low wages, for the work they do?... I certainly wouldn't... If you remember some stated 9/11 happened because you had low wage workers in security positions at airports... Who do you think should be paid more, Airport security, or the flight attendents, serving you juice?...

Something to think about in your scenario of how life should be in the US...

Frankly, as far as SSI, if it had been set up properly, the money taken in taxes should have had interest paid on it annually, then it would have been possibly worth enough for most Americans to retire on... Corporate pensions are disappearing, and a 401K is no longer a guarantee either... Look at how some corporations have cut, their payment matching on those, affecting many who invested in them...

America now is more like your attitude... It is screw the other guy, get what you can, as fast as you can. I'll live in denial, and hope nothing bad happens to me, or my family, and let the rest of the country go to He!!... At least that is now it appears from your post...

Remember, no man is an island... :wink:

.... and yes, it is a long post.... :lol: :wink: