Hours of Service Rules
 

I just finished my OTR training with a trainer. I am in a moral dilemma.

One of the first days out my trainer advised me of how to, what I preceived as, forge my logs. I let it go for a couple of days. But, the more it happened the more it bothered me. We finally had a real serious talk about whether we could continue together. I'm wondering if I was just being nieve to the way the real trucking world runs. I'll give a couple examples below. I'd appreciate some feedback from you guys.

1) HOS rules say that when you are waiting to be loaded or unloaded at a dock, you must log yourself as on duty not driving.

2) The same goes for after you are empty and waiting to be dispatched on another load.

3) Whenever you are completing paperwork related to your work you must log yourself on duty not driving.

These are just a few examples. The longer we were together the more I saw his point that if you follow the HOS rules you will burn up all your hours just sitting and not be able to average even 1,500 miles per week.

Everything I've heard was to not cheat on your logs. That warning kept ringing in my ears.

His point was that that every driver does it and if I don't, I won't make any money.

Help me understand how logging works in the real world. Next week I'll get my truck assignment and be out on my own. I'd like to get my head around this issue before I get out on my own.

On duty time means all time from the time a driver begins to work or is required to be in readiness to work until the time the driver is relieved from work and all responsibility for performing work. On duty time shall include:

(1) All time at a plant, terminal, facility, or other property of a motor carrier or shipper, or on any public property, waiting to be dispatched, unless the driver has been relieved from duty by the motor carrier;


Your carrier should provide you with a letter on their letterhead relieving you of duty when not physically loading, unloading etc.

No, it's not falsification, if yo have the documentation from yoru employer you will be fine.

An acid test as to whether or not you can log off duty is: Can you do what you want to do during that period of time without losing your job or getting a reprimand? If the answer is yes then you can log off duty.

Do not over think this and try to create a bunch of what-ifs. Just simply ask the question "Am I free to do what I want?" and assign a yes or no answer to it.

I did receive a little card from the Safety Director during orientation. I didn't understand what it meant at the time. It may be just what you are referring to. It reads:

"In compliance with D.O.T. regulation 395.2, you are hereby notified that you are relieved from any and all duty when making routine stops while enroute. The duration of your relief shall not be less than 30 minutes. The meal or routine stop may be logged as "OFF DUTY" time."

Is this what you are referring to?

Yes, that is what he is talking about.

Now remember, just because you have that card, logging off duty for short periods of time does not stop the 14 hour rule. All it does is save your hours on the 70 hour rule.

I have a similar document from my Employer.
Also...when I first started out...
I had one book and a medium black ink pen. :lol:

Even a President bends the rules. :lol:

Do what you feel comfortable with...and don't concern yourself with what anyone else is doing. After a year or so...you will see yourself developing into the kind of Trucker you want to be, and be doing the kind of Trucking you want to do.

Brace yourself. There will be bigger challenges ahead than just figuring out your coloring book. You will need to adapt and make other adjustments...and those things are yours to figure out. What might be easy for some is hard for others...so...keep in mind...starting out is tough for us all...and it really doesn't get any easier. You just learn to deal with it, or you quit.

Learning is an ongoing process. No matter how long you drive...you will still be learning new things.

P.S..... :shock: Leave your Service Weapon at home... :lol:
You will be tempted to go to gunpoint 20 times a day as a Trucker. :lol:
Especially at the Docks. :evil: :lol:

Another example is if you are BSing with the people on the docks for awhile after loading or unloading. My card used to say I could only log off duty if the vehicle was locked and chocked, so technically if I was still up against the dock with the doors open, it wasn't locked and chocked, but I'd log that 15 minutes of chat time off-duty anyway, because I was free to do whatever I wanted for that time, and could have walked away from the truck or whatever, so long as I got everything rolling again in time to make the next appointment.

All of that went out the window with the new HOS rules though. I don't think I have ever touched line 1 again except when I am physically done with a run and at home, and I don't even have an off duty card where I'm at now. That new 14 hour rule ate all my BSing with friends time, and all my stopping to eat time, and I had to start just hammering down to get it all done before the deadline, because I used to have a Monday run that took every ounce of 14.00 hours to get it all done, and I mean cramming it with a hydraulic ram to compress it enough to just barely fit under about 50,000 psi ready to pop loose and leak out over the line. That run is why I have gray hair.

In contrast, I'm working more hours more days now, but nothing is tight. I hate tight running. (Although I'd still be running tight as a banjo string on Mondays if I could have Tuedays, Fridays, AND Saturdays off. I miss that job. :( )

Re: Hours of Service Rules
 

if you cant make a decent salary without cheating, you are working for the wrong company. YOU are the one who will go to jail if something happens and you are caught.

Yeah, I understand that part. Once the 14 hour clock starts, it doesn't stop. My concern was regarding eating up the 70.

Thanks!

All good points Roadhog! Especially the one about the service weapon!!! :wink:

Re: Hours of Service Rules
 

Fredog, you're missing the point completely. This has nothing to do with the company. It has to do with the downtime while waiting to get loaded at the shipper or unloaded at the consignee and waiting for the next dispatch. You can't always get a preplan for your next load. Sometimes you have to wait a while.

My whole point in my original question was: How are truckers in the real world handling complaince with the HOS rules and keeping their miles up?

Re: Hours of Service Rules
 

Rookie.....Truckers are handling compliance the same way now, under these new HOS regs, as they did under the old regs. The only drivers your going to hear "Log it like you worked it" from, are the LTL guy's who work a 12 hour shift, Local drivers doing tanker or whatever..and working a 12 hour shift, and the $5.00 a mile guys, who only run 50,000 miles a year.

Everybody else will do what they need to do, to make a decent living and keep their jobs. They will turn in a piece of paper that say's they did it legally.

Just as they have always done.

Here is the way I have been doing it, lets say you pull into the shipper and it takes you 30 minutes to get the paperwork done for your load and back into the dock, that 30 minutes is logged as onduty not driving, then while you are being loaded it takes you 2 hours to get loaded, at which time you sit back in the sleeper berth and watch tv, That 2 hours is logged as sleeper berth, due to the fact that while you are in the sleeper unit of your truck, that does not mean you have to be actually sleeping.


Hope this helps and yes it is legal.

It seems your trainer was trying to teach you the tricks of getting over on the log pretty quick. If he said all drivers are doing it and you can't make any money without cheating, it makes me wonder how much IDC is paying you guys. What's their payscale like that makes cheating the logbook look so attractive? How much are you getting per mile? Detention? Layover?

I think if you can PM either GolfHobo...or Rawlco...either of these guys can give you great advice and options in regards to Logging.
They are both driving...so give them a while to respond.

I don't know the Company you will drive for...but do your best to log legal, and plan your routes so you can make your picks and drops on time. Keep a list of phone numbers of Driver's you can call for advice. You are going to find yourself needing questions answered fast (on many subjects)...and often. Use the CB or at TS's and Docks, ask another Driver. I did and still do.

You need to know all the rules and limitations. The closer you follow this the better. I hate liers, and hate the feeling it gives me, if I find myself doing the same. When I first started logging...it was a big deal for me, but the more I learned and understood, the more I was able to find a larger comfort zone. I am still not comfortable coloring too far outside the lines...but my humor helps see me through it. Knowing what I know helps the most. Starting out...with no experiance...your comfort zone is going to be very small. Don't try to be a Super Trucker too fast. You will either find yourself in trouble, making mistakes, or hating your job.


As far as logging sleeper berth at the docks...keep in mind your split is 2/8...no longer 5/5.

I talked to Rick (Rookie McRookerson) for a bit on the phone yesterday.
It sounds like the card IDC gives you releases you from Duty, from docking time until dispatch. Thus you can log line 1 off duty, saving your hours for the week. From what I gathered most ( not all ) is drop and hook.

My friend/soon to be trainer with IDC just left here a few days ago, had 3 drops, very light load, 60 bucks each unload ( which he seldom has to unload anything ) then he dropped his empty and hooked to a full, then left Washington to Georgia.

Rick is going to ask when he gets back to the terminal, and I will ask next time I call my friend.

Thanks Roadhog. You hit the nail right on the head! I also love your sense of humor!!! I am exactly where you were when you first started. I'm having enough trouble with logging without trying the split sleeper stuff. It will be some time before I get my head around that!

thanks again for your wise advice.

Re: Hours of Service Rules
 

And the dedicated auto parts haulers who run a truckload down and a truckload back with 3-4 hours to spare every day.
No, no, no. Everybody will do it legally, just like they always have. Read the story books. Story books never lie.

(Logging 100% legal is a novel thing, but I have to say I really do sincerely hope to continue this way for the rest of my career. It's so much less complicated when you can just draw the damn line and go on. Not that I'm admitting to ever having done anything to the contrary in my past life, you understand. Not at all. I've always run 100% legal. It just never stops being novel. Yeah. Um.)

Rookie said:

Well, I haven't been PM'd, so what does THAT tell ya?? :lol:

There were alot of questions in that first post, and MANY good answers on this thread. But.... I want to first address just this ONE point.

It seems that the most recent edition of the HOS is a "work in progress." Meaning, I have checked in many times and found that things have been "reworded."

This is what I found NOW on this question:


Here is how I interpret this new (I think) wording:

Off duty (line 1) should ONLY be used for enroute stops for meals and showers, etc., of a limited duration, when the company has agreed that you can have that amount of "personal time" while completing your assigned run.

While at a shipper, or consignee, you are not really at liberty to go sightseeing.... therefore, not REALLY "off duty."

However, it seems that if, after logging maybe 15 mins as checking in and docking or parking, the shipper/cons says THEY will call you or come get you when it is your "time," you can crawl into the sleeper until that time, and log it on line 2. You are not really "interrupted" until they call you. All time until then should be able to be logged in the sleeper, and therefore "saved" against your 70.

The part about combining the breaks to meet the required 10 hour "break" is only a reminder that, say... 1.5 hours in the sleeper "waiting" cannot count as one of the two breaks, and is therefore STILL counted against your 14 hour clock.

If you are standing around outside the vehicle, or sitting at the controls, because "moving it" is "imminent," you are on line 4. But, if you are at the dock, but you will not be loaded/unloaded for some time, you can get in the sleeper and log it that way. You will be "notified," when you are needed to be ready to move it.

Thanks for the clarification Golfhobo. I didn't PM you because I'm not real savie on doing that.

Now that I have that clarification I still have the more general question from experienced drivers: In the real world of driving, how are you really logging your hours? I'm not looking for the legal wording. I'm more interested in how drivers out there are managing their time.

No disrespect intended Golfhobo. Just trying to see how creative people are in this practice.

Here is how I dealt with this in the "real" world.

Dock time: Logged off duty if I was doing basically what I wanted to do such as reading a book, watching a movie/TV, eating, etc. If for some reason I ended up waiting to be unloaded for 10 or more hours and I got enough rest I would then log it as sleeper and off duty as the time merited to complete my break.

I logged it as On duty if I was actually on the dock counting freight, prepping the trailer, etc.

Waiting to be dispatched.

I would log that as on duty only if I had to sit in the terminal/office and could not go and do anything I wanted to do.

None taken. I was just poking fun at myself! :wink:

Now.... are you saying that I don't qualify as an experienced driver?? :shock:

Just kidding again!!

I think Orangetxguy and Jack07 gave you the straight poop. As your trainer said, if you log EVERYTHING legal in OTR, you won't make any money, cuz you won't have any time left for driving.

Many of us don't like to flat out show newbies how to cheat on this board, but..... since you're pressing me......

Remember, your log does not always have to show where you are exactly. i.e: If I arrive early at a shipper, and have hours to wait. Who says I didn't "wait" those hours at a Truckstop or the side of the road? Maybe, I JUST arrived at the shipper in time for my appointment. No way I'm logging HOURS on line 4 just because I'm on the shipper's property.

Or if I DO say I'm there (it only says what town I'm in, anyway,) I'm in the sleeper for as much time as I can show! Most shippers won't have you tying up an actual DOCK for more time than necessary, but it can STILL take hours to load/unload you at times.

First.... I don't log ANYTHING until after it happens and I am ready to leave. Then, I determine how creative I can be at saving my 70. First question is whether or not my bills are time stamped to show start and stop times. Usually they ARE! :evil:

So, if these yahoos say they took 3 hours to load me, I show 15 mins to encompass the start time, then go to sleeper, then show 15-30 mins to "load" and get my paperwork.

If they don't time stamp, I show 15-30 mins for the whole process, and I show it happened when I WANT it to have happened. If I got there at 6 a.m. and they didn't get around to me until 10, I MIGHT say they got me at 6 a.m. and I took a break following that. I'm not showing 4 hours on line 4, when I didn't do anything but REST the whole time.

Now, remember. I had to show starting my 14 hour clock anyway... so there's no way this "saving" of time on my 70 is going to mean that I'm able to drive past the 14 hour clock for that day, unless I was there for OVER 8 hours, in which case.... you're dang right I want those hours back!

"Fudging" my logs so I can get my job done that day or week, is ONE thing. But, I won't usually go so far as to cheat in a manner and with the purpose of.... driving beyond the limits that the Feds say will make me a sleepy and dangerous driver. I DON'T condone running two logbooks so that a driver can basically drive for 20 hours straight without a break!

Also, there is what's called speed averaging. So, if I drove slow or stopped too many times to pee, or stretch, or whatever... when I get somewhere, I may "tighten up" my log to show that I ONLY used the driving time that I SHOULD have used to get there. Then, after resting at the shipper for more time than my body needs to recuperate from a little bit of driving, I'll have driving time left to get down the road.... as long as it doesn't exceed the 14 hour limit.

If I AM "split logging" and I took 4, 30 minute breaks during my drive, I MAY say that I took ONE 2 hour break, this means I only need to "shut down" for 8 hours when the time comes, allowing me to leave sooner and get down the road.

Now... many on here MIGHT call me a cheat or a hypocrite or whatever. But, MANY have done the same thing. Many don't have to because they have those great paying jobs. Fact is, many OTR drivers are just barely making it, and will do what they need to to survive, or get out of the business.

The regs can be very constricting, but their main purpose is to ensure that we are not driving dangerous and sleepy. I "feel" that I am adhering to that principle, so MY conscience is clear.

Yours is your own business.

Thanks Golfhobo. Didn't mean to press you. But, I appreciate your candor. It really helps me get my head around the issue.

I will be picking up my truck tomorrow and will be on my own. I feel like I'm getting a clearer picture of how to log and still sleep at night!

Thanks,
Rick

Good thing to do if needed...stay off the tolls. They are time stamped.
Watch and plan your fuel stops. DOT can and will verify with your Comdata, if they feel the reason to.....so just because your fuel ticket just shows the day...doesn't mean they can't check your charge card for the actual time.

To get around this...if you really need fuel to get by...pay cash. Your reciept only needs to go to your Boss.

Once a week... :D ....get your reciepts out of the truck. :? I send my bills and reciepts into the office every week...that way...there are no reciepts in the Truck. :lol:

I know...I'm crafty. :P But...hey...don't wanna make it too easy for them Badge Kissers. :twisted: Especially in the Spring when they start doing a lot of Level 1 inspections.

If I ever rewrite History....I tear the old log sheets into teensy-weensy tiny little pieces...and dump hand fulls of them into seperate waste barrels, and run for my truck...and beat-cheeks down the road to get as far away from the crime as possible. Sometimes...I even need a shower afterwards. :roll:

Hobo...I think the Regs SUCK !

The damn clock is always ticking. You can't beat the clock. I feel you actually drive more tired BECAUSE of these damn Regs. At least in my own experiance. Tick...tick...tick...tick...tick :evil:

the regs have made it almost impossible to stop and lay your head down for 30-45 mins. those power naps does a person good.

I agree with golfhobo you can move some of your times around. I run only the Northwest and home most nights i still get into situations that I have to adjust the times to make it work. The thing I hate the most is our scale crossings and making sure that you dont cross the next scale to early and risk getting a speeding ticket. Oregon looks at those scale crossings really close. Been checked serveral times and only been told once that i was pushing the time limit too close on the crossing. Solved it by showing that I left a little eairlier.

I agree with both you guys. I never drove under the old rules, but I think the biggest mistake was doing away with the ability to take a nap and thereby extend the clock.

The fmcsa was SO intent on getting us all on a "normal" schedule - which is totally impossible - that they have made the situation worse!

Nearly every driver I talk to says that he has to give up his little power naps in order to get his miles in.

I never said I LIKED the new regs. I just said I understood their rationale. I have managed to "help them" help me! :wink:

:D Knowing what I know...makes it all reasonably comfortable for me to creatively improve on the ignorance of the idiot authors of these regulations.
I feel it is my moral and civic duty as a learned professional. :lol: 8)

Hey...I've heard it said, that they can not write you a speeding ticket off your logbook. They must catch you in the act of speeding.
( although what "T" said about between scales sounds likely )

What they can do however, is write you a ticket for "falsifying your logs."
Whether this is true or not...I don't know...but it sounded right when I heard this. Anyone in the know???

I have a PrePass which I know records the time as well...even though I don't roll across the scale.
I have been known to horseshoe the scalehouse...or plan my routes where I can avoid them...and/or I know the scalehouse is closed. You do become aquainted with which are open and which are not...as well as asking other Driver's if the gates were open.

But here is a question;

For the most part...they only look for weights...and registration stickers...right? They don't actually note who and when....right?
I suppose they can...but everytime I'm standing in the chickencoop...Rigs are rolling accross the scales...and they are just looking for simple violations....when there is one attendant.

When you see a small Army inside...boy howdy...you hear a lot of "Driver park and bring in your lies and wallet."

rookie. :P

Dang I think I just learned how to cheat on my logs and I don't even drive yet. :shock:

8) Assooo young Grasshoppa....

you missa the point...it no about how to cheat
...it about how you not getta kawt. :P

Knowledge only good when you master applied knowledge.
You must pawktice and lern mastory of this skilz.

He who try to advance too qwicklee ...loose ground. :lol:

I understand the first part. But I sur can't figgure anything out after that. :? :lol:

:lol: :lol: Yeah.... but no longer a "noobie!" :lol:

What can I say? I was BUSY for the last 30 years!! :shock:

you have to remember the people that redone the regs are probably people that have never driven a truck and dont understand what we go thru.

Yes it is not cheating as my wife says it is "Creative Writing 101" it is just knowing the rules and how to make them work to your advantage.

the naps come in handy when the sun is just starting to come up and the eyes get real tired.

Gee golfhobo didnt know your were a rookie... :lol:

Drivers cheat logs, they cheat themselves.. and of course, then have no idea why they are seen as fools and suckers by their own management...

:lol:

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l2...and10/2891.jpg

Amen to that. I can't rant enough about how many times I had to keep pushing myself up the road because of that damn 14 hour clock. I never drove so tired as I did after that changed.

Fortunately, I don't have to worry as much about it anymore. At least while they're still making auto parts in America. How long can this job last? I'm not that optimistic, I'm afraid. I'm hoping at least two years.

Fingers crossed.

Your NUTS as in crazy.