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kc0iv · Joined: 03 Feb 2005 Posts: 1113 Location: Kansas City, MO

RadioRay wrote:

Actually there's no exageration. There is a thread at www.qrz.com about 5 pages long about the subject. They're pretty aggravated over it. There's also an article about it at www.arnewline.com, and if it isn't easily found, it can be googled to locate it. There's also a Google item entitled
"'Hammies' (sic) want us off 10 Meters". There's a lot more irritation than one might think over this. True, we can't determine how many drivers that read this site are actually violating the regulations, I think it serves the purpose of informing the industry that this is a problem. Most drivers are law-abiding citizens, and, once made aware of the fact that transmitting on 10 Meters without a license is illegal and can get you in lots of trouble, they would stop doing it. Chances are, many people don't KNOW it is against the law. They don't KNOW that those "10 Meter" radios they bought at a CB shop "out back" are illegal. If they know, most of them would stop it, I think. Those who don't/won't are the ones who are intractable and/or a prone to violate other laws as well. But they need to know anyway, don't you think? :)

Thanks,

RR

RR,

Don't you think it is a little odd that QRZ.com complains about illegal operations on 10 meters and then publish illegal mods for non type accepted radios? Look at: http://www.qrz.com/download/mods-i-k/index.html

Kinda like -- Pot calling the kettle black.

kc0iv

RadioRay · Joined: 15 Dec 2004 Posts: 165 Location: North Carolina

Actually, I don't see any inconsistency in than the Amateur sets must be modified so as to operate in MARS (military affiliate, for those who don't know). This is a perfectly legal and approved modification for that purpose and for accessing the recently added 60 Meter frequencies. You would find that, actually, most hams modify their sets with honorable intentions and generally abide by the rules of the service they intend to operate in! :)

73

RR

kc0iv · Joined: 03 Feb 2005 Posts: 1113 Location: Kansas City, MO

RadioRay wrote: Actually, I don't see any inconsistency in than the Amateur sets must be modified so as to operate in MARS (military affiliate, for those who don't know). This is a perfectly legal and approved modification for that purpose and for accessing the recently added 60 Meter frequencies. You would find that, actually, most hams modify their sets with honorable intentions and generally abide by the rules of the service they intend to operate in! :)

73

RR

Lets see RR. What legal operation can be performed by a mod that allows you to transmit and receive on the FRS Band?

Reading: Quote: Sec. 95.194 (FRS Rule 4) FRS units.

(a) You may only use an FCC certified FRS unit. (You can identify an FCC certified FRS unit by the label placed on it by the manufacturer.)

(b) You must not make, or have made, any internal modification to an FRS unit. Any internal modification cancels the FCC certification and voids your authority to operate the unit in the FRS.

Now look at http://www.qrz.com/download/mods-i-k/icw32.txt at the bottom of the page Quote: FRS Band: 14 Channels = 7 at 462.### and 7 at 467.### MHz. If TXing on the FRS Band, make sure you set the unit to the LOW = 500 mw power setting.

Would you say qrz.com is publishing illegal modifications for the Icom IC-W32A/E?

kc0iv

Fredog · Joined: 23 Apr 2005 Posts: 2286 Location: North Georgia

kc0iv wrote: RadioRay wrote: Actually, I don't see any inconsistency in than the Amateur sets must be modified so as to operate in MARS (military affiliate, for those who don't know). This is a perfectly legal and approved modification for that purpose and for accessing the recently added 60 Meter frequencies. You would find that, actually, most hams modify their sets with honorable intentions and generally abide by the rules of the service they intend to operate in! :)

73

RR

Lets see RR. What legal operation can be performed by a mod that allows you to transmit and receive on the FRS Band?

Reading: Quote: Sec. 95.194 (FRS Rule 4) FRS units.

(a) You may only use an FCC certified FRS unit. (You can identify an FCC certified FRS unit by the label placed on it by the manufacturer.)

(b) You must not make, or have made, any internal modification to an FRS unit. Any internal modification cancels the FCC certification and voids your authority to operate the unit in the FRS.

Now look at http://www.qrz.com/download/mods-i-k/icw32.txt at the bottom of the page Quote: FRS Band: 14 Channels = 7 at 462.### and 7 at 467.### MHz. If TXing on the FRS Band, make sure you set the unit to the LOW = 500 mw power setting.

Would you say qrz.com is publishing illegal modifications for the Icom IC-W32A/E?

kc0iv

that's fine as long as those durned truck drivahs stay off the 10 meter band

kc0iv · Joined: 03 Feb 2005 Posts: 1113 Location: Kansas City, MO

Fredog wrote: kc0iv wrote: RadioRay wrote: Actually, I don't see any inconsistency in than the Amateur sets must be modified so as to operate in MARS (military affiliate, for those who don't know). This is a perfectly legal and approved modification for that purpose and for accessing the recently added 60 Meter frequencies. You would find that, actually, most hams modify their sets with honorable intentions and generally abide by the rules of the service they intend to operate in! :)

73

RR

Lets see RR. What legal operation can be performed by a mod that allows you to transmit and receive on the FRS Band?

Reading: Quote: Sec. 95.194 (FRS Rule 4) FRS units.

(a) You may only use an FCC certified FRS unit. (You can identify an FCC certified FRS unit by the label placed on it by the manufacturer.)

(b) You must not make, or have made, any internal modification to an FRS unit. Any internal modification cancels the FCC certification and voids your authority to operate the unit in the FRS.

Now look at http://www.qrz.com/download/mods-i-k/icw32.txt at the bottom of the page Quote: FRS Band: 14 Channels = 7 at 462.### and 7 at 467.### MHz. If TXing on the FRS Band, make sure you set the unit to the LOW = 500 mw power setting.

Would you say qrz.com is publishing illegal modifications for the Icom IC-W32A/E?

kc0iv

that's fine as long as those durned truck drivahs stay off the 10 meter band

I see RR. In your mind breaking the law is OK for "Hams" but not for "CBer". :sad: Don't you think you are being a bit hypocritical?

I thought you were one of those "hams" that believed in being a law abiding citizens. You have proved me wrong.

I wonder what other laws you think it's OK to break.

kc0iv

Fredog · Joined: 23 Apr 2005 Posts: 2286 Location: North Georgia

Quote: [quote="kc0iv"] Fredog wrote: kc0iv wrote: RadioRay wrote: Actually, I don't see any inconsistency in than the Amateur sets must be modified so as to operate in MARS (military affiliate, for those who don't know). This is a perfectly legal and approved modification for that purpose and for accessing the recently added 60 Meter frequencies. You would find that, actually, most hams modify their sets with honorable intentions and generally abide by the rules of the service they intend to operate in! :)

73

RR

Lets see RR. What legal operation can be performed by a mod that allows you to transmit and receive on the FRS Band?

Reading: Quote: Sec. 95.194 (FRS Rule 4) FRS units.

(a) You may only use an FCC certified FRS unit. (You can identify an FCC certified FRS unit by the label placed on it by the manufacturer.)

(b) You must not make, or have made, any internal modification to an FRS unit. Any internal modification cancels the FCC certification and voids your authority to operate the unit in the FRS.

Now look at http://www.qrz.com/download/mods-i-k/icw32.txt at the bottom of the page Quote: FRS Band: 14 Channels = 7 at 462.### and 7 at 467.### MHz. If TXing on the FRS Band, make sure you set the unit to the LOW = 500 mw power setting.

Would you say qrz.com is publishing illegal modifications for the Icom IC-W32A/E?

kc0iv

Quote: that's fine as long as those durned truck drivahs stay off the 10 meter band

[
Ray didnt write that , I did

RadioRay · Joined: 15 Dec 2004 Posts: 165 Location: North Carolina

SIMPLE. The modification of a radio is NOT illegal, THAT'S why. AS LONG AS IT IS USED ACCORDING TO THE RULES OF THE SERVICE IT IS INTENDED TO BE USED IN. USING a modified amateur set to TRANSMIT on FRS is against the law. By ANYBODY! Yet anytime a radio set is modified, it enables transmit on ALL frequencies in its range. It is the OPERATOR'S responsibility to see that it is operated according to the rules of the intended service. These include US Government, military, FEMA, SHARES, MARS and USAF Auxiliary (CAP). FCC has NO authority in such cases and you may Google "NTIA" to learn what this agency does and how it "trumps" FCC. Just because a radio is modified, it doesn't mean it is going to be used illegally, and it is NOT illegal to mod it. The difference in the alleged "10 Meter" radios and the amateur radios is, the '10 Meter' radios are listed on FCC's Office of Technology page specifically by name as being illegal to SELL, and they are illegal to use on CB, or on the ham bands without license.

I see no inconsistency in the law as it sits. If a person operates a radio outside the rules of any service, then he should be subject to the penalties that apply--ham or CBer.

I NEVER said it was OK to operate an Amateur set on FRS--or any band without license or authority. It just happens that it is NOT illegal to modify an amateur radio. You may NOT use it on FRS. It has N E V E R been legal to use an Amateur set on civilian frequencies. You are attempting to put words in my mouth that I never uttered. I do NOT condone illegal operations of any kind and that goes for CB and ham.

RR

kc0iv · Joined: 03 Feb 2005 Posts: 1113 Location: Kansas City, MO

RadioRay wrote: SIMPLE. The modification of a radio is NOT illegal, THAT'S why. AS LONG AS IT IS USED ACCORDING TO THE RULES OF THE SERVICE IT IS INTENDED TO BE USED IN. USING a modified amateur set to TRANSMIT on FRS is against the law. By ANYBODY! Yet anytime a radio set is modified, it enables transmit on ALL frequencies in its range. It is the OPERATOR'S responsibility to see that it is operated according to the rules of the intended service. These include US Government, military, FEMA, SHARES, MARS and USAF Auxiliary (CAP). FCC has NO authority in such cases and you may Google "NTIA" to learn what this agency does and how it "trumps" FCC. Just because a radio is modified, it doesn't mean it is going to be used illegally, and it is NOT illegal to mod it. The difference in the alleged "10 Meter" radios and the amateur radios is, the '10 Meter' radios are listed on FCC's Office of Technology page specifically by name as being illegal to SELL, and they are illegal to use on CB, or on the ham bands without license.

I see no inconsistency in the law as it sits. If a person operates a radio outside the rules of any service, then he should be subject to the penalties that apply--ham or CBer.

I NEVER said it was OK to operate an Amateur set on FRS--or any band without license or authority. It just happens that it is NOT illegal to modify an amateur radio. You may NOT use it on FRS. It has N E V E R been legal to use an Amateur set on civilian frequencies. You are attempting to put words in my mouth that I never uttered. I do NOT condone illegal operations of any kind and that goes for CB and ham.

RR

I'm sorry RR I got lost in the all the quotes. I apologize for the error.

I still think it degrades "Ham Radio" for a national publication to publish a know illegal operation. And not only publish the how-to but the go on and tell them to make sure they operate at a reduced power.

Again I apologize.

kc0iv

RadioRay · Joined: 15 Dec 2004 Posts: 165 Location: North Carolina

But wouldn't you agree that this is a matter of perception? I can see how it might look illegal, particularly from the standpoint of someone who might be looking for some moral equivilency. IOW, hmmm, let me see. *I'M* doing something that I WANT to be legal, but it isn't so I have to find someway to equalize the operations of those who ARE legal in order to find a level plane! :)

But the fact is, those modifications shown on QRZ are not illegal in and of themselves, and are intended to help those who DO have a legitimate need for operations outside of amateur radio. The KEY is usage, and so long as the radio is used (and the mods are done correctly) in the service in which it is intended with authorization (such as MARS) there is no foul.

I don't doubt there are hams that make mods with ill intent, transmit outside the amateur bands without authorization, and do "bad" things. *I* don't! Yes, my radio IS modified (GASP!)...................but! It is used in NTIA-authorized services and outside FCC's jurisdiction. It is NTIA that would "smack" me (actually USAF Freq/mgt) if I weren't in compliance with the parent agency with whom I operate. Those hams that DO misbehave, I want caught! Those who run bootleg CB shops and sell "10 Meter" radios, I want fined and revoked! ME, I think too much of my license to make mischief. :lol:

73

RR

Fredog · Joined: 23 Apr 2005 Posts: 2286 Location: North Georgia

kc0iv wrote: RadioRay wrote: SIMPLE. The modification of a radio is NOT illegal, THAT'S why. AS LONG AS IT IS USED ACCORDING TO THE RULES OF THE SERVICE IT IS INTENDED TO BE USED IN. USING a modified amateur set to TRANSMIT on FRS is against the law. By ANYBODY! Yet anytime a radio set is modified, it enables transmit on ALL frequencies in its range. It is the OPERATOR'S responsibility to see that it is operated according to the rules of the intended service. These include US Government, military, FEMA, SHARES, MARS and USAF Auxiliary (CAP). FCC has NO authority in such cases and you may Google "NTIA" to learn what this agency does and how it "trumps" FCC. Just because a radio is modified, it doesn't mean it is going to be used illegally, and it is NOT illegal to mod it. The difference in the alleged "10 Meter" radios and the amateur radios is, the '10 Meter' radios are listed on FCC's Office of Technology page specifically by name as being illegal to SELL, and they are illegal to use on CB, or on the ham bands without license.

I see no inconsistency in the law as it sits. If a person operates a radio outside the rules of any service, then he should be subject to the penalties that apply--ham or CBer.

I NEVER said it was OK to operate an Amateur set on FRS--or any band without license or authority. It just happens that it is NOT illegal to modify an amateur radio. You may NOT use it on FRS. It has N E V E R been legal to use an Amateur set on civilian frequencies. You are attempting to put words in my mouth that I never uttered. I do NOT condone illegal operations of any kind and that goes for CB and ham.

RR

I'm sorry RR I got lost in the all the quotes. I apologize for the error.

I still think it degrades "Ham Radio" for a national publication to publish a know illegal operation. And not only publish the how-to but the go on and tell them to make sure they operate at a reduced power.

Again I apologize.

kc0iv

kc0iv · Joined: 03 Feb 2005 Posts: 1113 Location: Kansas City, MO

RadioRay wrote: But wouldn't you agree that this is a matter of perception? I can see how it might look illegal, particularly from the standpoint of someone who might be looking for some moral equivilency. IOW, hmmm, let me see. *I'M* doing something that I WANT to be legal, but it isn't so I have to find someway to equalize the operations of those who ARE legal in order to find a level plane! :)

But the fact is, those modifications shown on QRZ are not illegal in and of themselves, and are intended to help those who DO have a legitimate need for operations outside of amateur radio. The KEY is usage, and so long as the radio is used (and the mods are done correctly) in the service in which it is intended with authorization (such as MARS) there is no foul.

I don't doubt there are hams that make mods with ill intent, transmit outside the amateur bands without authorization, and do "bad" things. *I* don't! Yes, my radio IS modified (GASP!)...................but! It is used in NTIA-authorized services and outside FCC's jurisdiction. It is NTIA that would "smack" me (actually USAF Freq/mgt) if I weren't in compliance with the parent agency with whom I operate. Those hams that DO misbehave, I want caught! Those who run bootleg CB shops and sell "10 Meter" radios, I want fined and revoked! ME, I think too much of my license to make mischief. :lol:

73

RR

Yes I agree it is a matter of perception. And the perception is in fact QRZ have gave instructions for illegal operation. Would you not agree the proper instruction for this mod would have been " The operation of the equipment in the FRS Band is illegal." But instead of giving this type of warning the author does just the opposite. He/she makes this warning. " If TXing on the FRS Band, make sure you set the unit to the LOW = 500 mw power setting." The author clearly know it is illegal to operate this radio on the FRS Band or he/she would not have said to limit it's power to 500 mw. As I showed before -- Only FCC certified units FRS unit can be used on this band.

You seem to have missed the point QRZ gave instructions on how to operate the mod of illegal use as I just showed.

I would hope you will also agree there are no DoD stations that operate on the FRS frequencies (462.5625 - 467.7125 Mhz).

I'm not looking for moral equivalence. I don't own and illegal radios. Nor have I ever owned any illegal radios. And I don't condone the operations of any illegal radio. In the same light I don't run around claiming the high road when I see and hear all the illegal operation being on the the "ham" bands. I could write more citations in one night on 75 meters than those CBers that use the 10 meter band illegally in a year. I might add many of these "hams" have been licensed longer than I have and I've been licensed since 1958. And while I'm on a roll check-out all those on 20 meters running power way above the legal limit.

You seem to be on a one man team trying to clean-up illegal operations on 10 meters but look the other way at all the illegal operations within the "ham" bands.

Even if you won't accept it the FCCs are not going to do much about illegal operations on 10 meters. They simply don't have the manpower to clean up the job. Sure you can list a few sales companies that have been fined, some with pretty good fines, but it hasn't slowed the sales. It's no problem to do a google search where you can find bunches of dealers that advertise these illegal radios. If the FCCs had the manpower I'd think they would go after these advertiser.

What I have seen in relationship to your posting. You have done more harm than good as far as getting truckers to not use these radios. But to each their own.

kc0iv

RadioRay · Joined: 15 Dec 2004 Posts: 165 Location: North Carolina

But then what should we do; pat them on the back and ignore their operations on 10M? If somebody doesn't say SOMETHING, how will they know that it is against the law? You know that the prevailing
CB myth is of a "freeband" that is there for the taking. Nevermind that these frequencies are still ASSIGNED--many of them are assigned to NTIA-governed agencies. *I* operate several of these frequencies with USAF authorization. It shouldn't matter if the agencies there assigned NEVER used them; they STILL belong to them! Same as if you bought a John Deere mower and put it in your shed and NEVER used it! Does that, then, make it OK for someone to borrow your mower without your permission? What if YOU want to use the mower and it isn't there? Theft is theft, but that is the logic the CBers use when they filch frequencies they call "channels" they think are "free" for the taking simply because they want to! Same thing with the 10 meter thing. That area, as we both know, belongs by licensure to the Amateur Service. Period and END! Ideally, yes, the people who filch there ought to be forced to forfeit their very homes, AFAIAC! :evil: But that isn't up to me. I do disagree that FCC is not going to do "much" about the 10 Meter issue. Mr. Robert Darling, Field Engineer, FCC Dallas, TX has told me quite a bit of the things, AND the legal maneuvering that is occurring (214-575-6361 if you are interested) and WHY it is taking a long time to really make a dent in it. They HAVE to act because they know that if they FAIL to do so, this thing will continue until it moves OFF 10 Meters onto 12, then 17, and 20 Meters----and the Connex and Galaxy types are just filthy enough to provide the means for people to go there! You'd have to talk to Mr Darling to understand why it is taking so long. But from his words, I believe that there IS hope!!! :lol:

RR

Fredog · Joined: 23 Apr 2005 Posts: 2286 Location: North Georgia

RadioRay wrote: But then what should we do; pat them on the back and ignore their operations on 10M? If somebody doesn't say SOMETHING, how will they know that it is against the law? You know that the prevailing
CB myth is of a "freeband" that is there for the taking. Nevermind that these frequencies are still ASSIGNED--many of them are assigned to NTIA-governed agencies. *I* operate several of these frequencies with USAF authorization. It shouldn't matter if the agencies there assigned NEVER used them; they STILL belong to them! Same as if you bought a John Deere mower and put it in your shed and NEVER used it! Does that, then, make it OK for someone to borrow your mower without your permission? What if YOU want to use the mower and it isn't there? Theft is theft, but that is the logic the CBers use when they filch frequencies they call "channels" they think are "free" for the taking simply because they want to! Same thing with the 10 meter thing. That area, as we both know, belongs by licensure to the Amateur Service. Period and END! Ideally, yes, the people who filch there ought to be forced to forfeit their very homes, AFAIAC! :evil: But that isn't up to me. I do disagree that FCC is not going to do "much" about the 10 Meter issue. Mr. Robert Darling, Field Engineer, FCC Dallas, TX has told me quite a bit of the things, AND the legal maneuvering that is occurring (214-575-6361 if you are interested) and WHY it is taking a long time to really make a dent in it. They HAVE to act because they know that if they FAIL to do so, this thing will continue until it moves OFF 10 Meters onto 12, then 17, and 20 Meters----and the Connex and Galaxy types are just filthy enough to provide the means for people to go there! You'd have to talk to Mr Darling to understand why it is taking so long. But from his words, I believe that there IS hope!!! :lol:

RR

I think somebody needs a nap

kc0iv · Joined: 03 Feb 2005 Posts: 1113 Location: Kansas City, MO

RR while I am sure the Field Engineers would like to do more. The plain fact is the simple do not have the manpower to find, locate, and do the testing it requires.

How many illegal CBer have been fined in the last two years? Maybe 10 or less. While the amount of $125,000 sounds like a lot of money it really doesn't amount to much for amount of time invested. As a comparison look at what the FCCs accepted for the "PAYOLA" VIOLATIONS see ( http://www.fcc.gov/eb/News_Releases/DOC-272304A1.html ) $12.5 million. Which one do you think the FCCs are going look at $125,000 or $12.5 million? How much do you think Pilot lost in sales, maybe .0001% or less.

As a "ham" and I was talking about this he said, and I agree, until the attitude of these illegal operators is change nothing will be done. Token actions on the part of the FCCs. Write a few letters and hope something will happen. It goes back to the middle '60s the FCCs lost control of the actions of the CBers. So what was the actions of the FCCs. They did away with the CB licenses. Now that is what I call cracking down.

As a side note. They are doing the very same thing with "ham" radio.

What do you think Darling or any other person at the FCCs is going to say? Proof is in the pudding. Passed history has shown the FCCs don't do much when it comes to CB.

kc0iv

jedfxg · Joined: 11 Feb 2007 Posts: 553 Location: se buckeye

are you guys f'ing serious??? i run a 10 meter with a kicker...when needed. however i stay on the 40 channels? am i wrong in doing so? and is it reallyworth arguing about?

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