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countryhorseman · Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:55 pm Post subject:

"so there is only one route between these 2 towns? and how does he know they dont have a license and why wouldnt he stop them and fine them or arrest them, the company usually doesnt supply the radio."

As for this statement, the trucking company can and will be held liable for communication equipment found in company trucks that are found to be out of compliance. Thus the reason the warning letter was sent to the company.

Fredog · Joined: 23 Apr 2005 Posts: 2286 Location: North Georgia

countryhorseman wrote: "so there is only one route between these 2 towns? and how does he know they dont have a license and why wouldnt he stop them and fine them or arrest them, the company usually doesnt supply the radio."

As for this statement, the trucking company can and will be held liable for communication equipment found in company trucks that are found to be out of compliance. Thus the reason the warning letter was sent to the company.

why dont they stop the driver and find out if he has a license? I have one but no one has ever asked me, they just assume that I am operating illegally

countryhorseman · Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 1:27 pm Post subject:

Fredog wrote: countryhorseman wrote: "so there is only one route between these 2 towns? and how does he know they dont have a license and why wouldnt he stop them and fine them or arrest them, the company usually doesnt supply the radio."

As for this statement, the trucking company can and will be held liable for communication equipment found in company trucks that are found to be out of compliance. Thus the reason the warning letter was sent to the company.

why dont they stop the driver and find out if he has a license? I have one but no one has ever asked me, they just assume that I am operating illegally

Like I said earlier, Amatuer Operators are self policing. So more than likely what has happened here, is that a licensed operator that was having issues with these individuals interfering with legal transmissions set up his equipment to find the source of the interference. Once the licensed operator located the source, he turns all information and facts over to the FCC to follow up. Then the FCC, acting on verified information sends the letters, in this case, to the company whose vehicles were identified as causing the interference. If the company does not respond to the letter, then the FCC proceeds to the next step of actually fining the company for failure to act and/or comply with the request.

License Amatuers many times locate sources of interference easily, with simple equipment. I personally have some simple fox hunting equipment used for various events in our area, contesting per se. The equipment can also be used for locating power line interference, erratic TV signals and Search and Rescue missions were low power equipment is sending a distress signal. Many many uses.

You must remember that many Ametuer operators train constantly to provide emergency communications in disasters. Most recently the tornadoes in Kansas, flooding events in the central part of the country that has knocked out power to conventional communication modes, and remember back to Katrina, the first emergency responders in New Orleans were licensed HAM operators on portable equipment that is not effected by the power grid.

When unlicensed operators and illegal equipment are used on these bands, it interferes with the licensed operators from contibuting and training for these situations.

You also need to think, some of the middle frequency's used by these boot leg radios are also used for military operations. Interfere with these and the consequences are much higher.

Thoughs to ponder, enjoy and absorb.

Thanks

kc0iv · Joined: 03 Feb 2005 Posts: 1113 Location: Kansas City, MO

You said: Quote: If they were licensed to operate on 10 meters, they would identify with their callsign at the beginning, during (once every 10 minutes), and at the end of their conversation.

The single reason they are not licensed is the frequency they were using (28.115 MHz) which is a CW, RTTY and data only frequency. No AM, SSB, or FW is allow.

You said: Quote: As far as tracking and identyfing illegal transmissions, it is not hard or complicated. A small yagi tracking antenna and low power receiver is all that is needed. Heck, I can even find those irratating morons that like to hide behind the curtains of their trucks. Simple, just disconnect the antenna at the back of the radio, and drive around the lot until the offenders radio pegs the meter. Many of a driver has had knocks on the door that shut them up in a hurry by using this method.

While your theory sounds good. It is doubtful you would be able to determine which truck the signal is coming from. Having done some Fox Hunting in days past I found it took several different signal paths before you can determine a signals location. Even after the signal path was determine finding the exact transmitter's location was still hard to find.

You said: Quote: Licensed Ametuers are also as a whole self policing. Whereas a slight correction on the air is typically all that is needed to bring an offender back in line. Also, being federally licensed, the license info can easlily be tracked and turned in.

I can see you haven't been on 75 meters much. A lot of these "hams" seem to have never learned the amateur rules and regulations. I'd also say look at 20 meters at the number of transmitters that exceed the 2000 watt limit. Just look at the Henry 3K and 8K linear amplifiers that can be found on 20 meters.

Over the years I have watched the "hams" becoming more and more like the CB'ers. And I see it getting worst instead of better. Now with the no code requirement what will that lead to?

I doubt the number of illegal CBer are much worst than the number of illegal "hams". And when you look at the number of CBer vs the number of "hams" CBer comes out looking better.

Now to answer Fredog question: Quote: so there is only one route between these 2 towns? and how does he know they dont have a license and why wouldnt he stop them and fine them or arrest them, the company usually doesnt supply the radio.

More than likely this was turned in a "ham" that was on the same road as these two truckers and then reported to the FCC with the company name.

Had it been by the FCC directly they would have contacted the highway patrol and had the truck stopped and did a inspection on the trucker(s).

kc0iv

RadioRay · Joined: 15 Dec 2004 Posts: 165 Location: North Carolina

More than likely this was turned in a "ham" that was on the same road as these two truckers and then reported to the FCC with the company name.

Had it been by the FCC directly they would have contacted the highway patrol and had the truck stopped and did a inspection on the trucker(s).
(quote)

Pretty much accurate. And this is the way it usually happens. Amateur drives along the highway listening to the trucks on 10 Meters. The most popular frequency is 28.085 AM. Amateur equipment will also scan an entire band and can be selectively set up to scan that OR specific frequencies that may be more likely to have drivers on them. The Amateurs often have several antennas or antennas that may be unfamiliar to drivers. Often drivers just cannot resist commenting on the number or the unusual nature of the antenna(s). So they will sometimes say, according to hams who have actually turned drivers in for this, "Hey, dri-vah, I got this car beside me with about 6 antennas on it, and one is about 10 feet tall! Reckon he can talk to the moon?" BINGO! Car with antennas "beside" me. Signal meter PEGGED even with full attenuation or antenna disconnected. Um.......................driver? You're CAUGHT! :shock: Monitor station copies down the information off the truck and sends it to the Special Counsel for Amateur Enforcement. A letter is generated to the company, such as the one(s) that appear above.
Anytime an official correspondence is sent regarding requests for information, citations, offenses, etc. the correspondent MUST reply and answer each point, and/or call the signer of the letter. Failure to respond will then cause a fine to be generated and/OR agents will be dispatched to inspect the trucks at random. However, this has proven to be mostly unnecessary as the companies have been VERY cooperative . They are then told how and why the radios are illegal, what the drivers are doing with them, and the invariable question is, "How can we comply?"
They are then told to have the radios REMOVED from their entire fleet of trucks and it is strongly suggested that the company send out a memo to drivers PROHIBITING so-called "10 Meter" radios from their trucks. FCC then will supply a list of the radios that are illegal, the company complies with the prohibition, and thus avoids a fine. IF one of their drivers are ever caught AGAIN, then it gets sticky! So far, I'm told there is only one company that got caught twice.

And that's the way it works as it was related to me.

RR[/u]

Fredog · Joined: 23 Apr 2005 Posts: 2286 Location: North Georgia

RadioRay wrote: More than likely this was turned in a "ham" that was on the same road as these two truckers and then reported to the FCC with the company name.

Had it been by the FCC directly they would have contacted the highway patrol and had the truck stopped and did a inspection on the trucker(s).
(quote)

Pretty much accurate. And this is the way it usually happens. Amateur drives along the highway listening to the trucks on 10 Meters. The most popular frequency is 28.085 AM. Amateur equipment will also scan an entire band and can be selectively set up to scan that OR specific frequencies that may be more likely to have drivers on them. The Amateurs often have several antennas or antennas that may be unfamiliar to drivers. Often drivers just cannot resist commenting on the number or the unusual nature of the antenna(s). So they will sometimes say, according to hams who have actually turned drivers in for this, "Hey, dri-vah, I got this car beside me with about 6 antennas on it, and one is about 10 feet tall! Reckon he can talk to the moon?" BINGO! Car with antennas "beside" me. Signal meter PEGGED even with full attenuation or antenna disconnected. Um.......................driver? You're CAUGHT! :shock: Monitor station copies down the information off the truck and sends it to the Special Counsel for Amateur Enforcement. A letter is generated to the company, such as the one(s) that appear above.
Anytime an official correspondence is sent regarding requests for information, citations, offenses, etc. the correspondent MUST reply and answer each point, and/or call the signer of the letter. Failure to respond will then cause a fine to be generated and/OR agents will be dispatched to inspect the trucks at random. However, this has proven to be mostly unnecessary as the companies have been VERY cooperative . They are then told how and why the radios are illegal, what the drivers are doing with them, and the invariable question is, "How can we comply?"
They are then told to have the radios REMOVED from their entire fleet of trucks and it is strongly suggested that the company send out a memo to drivers PROHIBITING so-called "10 Meter" radios from their trucks. FCC then will supply a list of the radios that are illegal, the company complies with the prohibition, and thus avoids a fine. IF one of their drivers are ever caught AGAIN, then it gets sticky! So far, I'm told there is only one company that got caught twice.

And that's the way it works as it was related to me.

RR[/u]

but how does the guy in the car with all the antennas know if the driver has a license or not?

kc0iv · Joined: 03 Feb 2005 Posts: 1113 Location: Kansas City, MO

You ask: Quote: but how does the guy in the car with all the antennas know if the driver has a license or not?

More than likely he/she doesn't know the status of the truckers being licensed. If you read the FCC's letter nor do they know. What is known is it was an illegal transmissions. Be it a licensed "ham" or a "bootleg" CBer. If it is a "ham" that information will be determined when Sysco makes the call to the FCC office.

If Sysco tells the FCC the driver(s) is a "ham(s)" then I am sure they will contact the "ham(s)" and advise him/her of the illegal transmission. If it is determined one or more drivers were operating illegally Sysco has been advised of this illegal activity by the letter. What happens next will be determined by the field office by the FCC. That action could amount to anything from follow-up letter (most likely) to a full blown FCC inspection of every Sysco truck (doubtful).

While RR would like for you to believe the FCC is so effective the truth is it is anything from being effective. There simply not enough agents to find all the violations that occur.

kc0iv

RadioRay · Joined: 15 Dec 2004 Posts: 165 Location: North Carolina

(snip)

but how does the guy in the car with all the antennas know if the driver has a license or not?[/quote]

The KEY is the frequency. You see, according to the International Telecommunications Union (ITU), 10 Meters is somewhat segmented according to the particular mode of transmission.

28.000 thru 28.300 = teletetype (RTTY), Packet/Pactor (a form of digital transmission that involves NO voice at all) Slo-scan TV (where hams can send experimental TV transmissions [no "broadcasting", however--strictly hobby] ), and Morse Code. Again, NO voice allowed.

28.300 to 28.500= Single Sideband (upper). This is part of the new privileges Technician hams got when Morse was abolished in the US for any class of license. Technicians, Generals (Advanced-no longer issued but renewable if already a holder).

28.500-28.900= Single Sideband (upper) General (Advanced) and Extra class.

28.900 29.100 (approximately) = AM window with 29.000 being an AM calling frequency (Amateur radio does not have "channels" except for the 60 Meter band and that was to appease NTIA).

29.400-29.600= FM simplex with the FM simplex (without repeaters and going direct) calling frequency being 29.600

"29.500- 29.580= FM repeater input with tone encode.

29.610-29.700= FM repeater output (receive with or without PL*)

*These are approximate listings with "buffers" to separate the frequencies.

Now. Going BACK to HOW hams know someone isn't licensed. Most of the illegal "10 Meter" radios have "bands" of 'channels'--A, B, C, D, E, F--and so on. On many of the outlaw radios, Channel 19 is "two up" from wherever the regular CB channels are on a given set. So, if you are on channel 19 and flip the band (grrrrrrr) band switch UP two, you are now on 28.085 and SMACK in the middle of the Morse/RTTY/Pactor sub-band.
Licensed hams themselves may NOT use voice in that area. VOICE
(phone=SSB, AM, FM) IS NOT PERMITTED AT ALL! Is a picture beginning to form? :D AH HA!! Ergo, driver is transmitting on...............say 28.085 AM. First clue:

1. VOICE is not permitted between 28.000 and 28.300 MHZ.

2. He gives NO callsign--which is moot because he is not supposed to
be transmitting there in the AM mode to begin with.

3. Trucks often have an "echo-ey", shaky sound anyway. Can't be pre-
vented in many cases because of the accoustics of the vehicle and
bouncy ride (not always that way, tho)

4. Joe's CB and hack shop has clipped this, removed that, turned this
slug, and it makes the audio muffled (true with a lot of CB sets, not
just '10 Meter".

5. The gist of the conversation. "I just came out of shakey town in a foot
of snow." "My dispatcher doesn't like me; he always gives me the
worst loads." "Bear at Exit 100" And so on.

These are a DEAD give away. Drivers don't KNOW any better (mostly). They just know they just bought this super-duper, chrome-faced, "wackpacked" reddido with 320 "channels", and they mean to use 'em.
While they are making fun of the little sedan with that 'funny' antenna, they don't know they are about to be turned in to FCC.

I would have agreed with other posters that FCC was almost "dead" about
5 years ago. However, while it was, at that time, almost unheard of for a CB operator to get a fine, it is no longer true. Yes, they don't have the resources (agents) they used to. And they no longer use the "white vans" people used to fear. Technology changes and many of those agents and vans have been replaced with computers and discreet monitoring stations. They can now sit in Columbia, MD, dial up a remote
monitor (scattered all over the country) and have data on you before they finish their first cup of coffee in the AM! :shock: This applies to fixed stations, but they can also DF YOU; the idea that they can't find you is a myth! Computers are amazing these days! Anyway CB operators that once thought they could do anyway they pleased (indeed, that they had a "right" to a radio) are now finding out that $10,000 is hard to pay and they are BEGGING for mercy! :D Shops and dealers are paying up to $150,000 (so far) because they, too, think their sh-- don't stink!
"BWAAAAAAAAAAA!!! OH PLEASE MR FCC MAN, PLEASE REDUCE THIS FINE!!!! :lol: I JUST CAIN'T PAY THAT MUCH MONEY! OH BOO HOO! BWAAAAAAA-HAAAAAAAA!" (sniff, sniff)!!! :twisted:

So I wouldn't be TOO confident, boys. And you need to remember that RadioRay is just the guy posting here. There's a LOT of hams who are P---ed off big time over this and are working behind the scenes to get something done! They may not say anything in public, but they are working thru and with ARRL, with the Special Counsel for Amateur Enforcement (that signs the letters to companies), and with the Dallas Field Office of FCC to get this stopped. They are also driving along commuting to work, going on vacation, church, errands just LISTENING for an illegal station to show up. If it were me, I'd heed the advice and know WHERE I am transmitting, and, of course, stay OFF 10 Meters without authorization/license.

RR

Twilight Flyer · Joined: 13 Nov 2002 Posts: 5738

Quote: There's a LOT of hams who are P---ed off big time over this and are working behind the scenes to get something done!

I'd have to disagree with that. Exageration is usually a pretty successful scare tactic/tool. :roll: But you are on a web forum here where probably 0% of the posters are 'violators' and most will view this as instigating and respond accordingly.

As I said in a previous post, you've not crossed any lines but are getting close. Tone it down a bit and leave the "black helicopters" on the pad. Thanks.

Useless · Joined: 08 Oct 2005 Posts: 3177 Location: Canyon Lake, Tx.

Twilight Flyer wrote:
......... Exageration is usually a pretty successful scare tactic/tool. :roll: But you are on a web forum here where probably 0% of the posters are 'violators' and most will view this as instigating and respond accordingly.

As I said in a previous post, you've not crossed any lines but are getting close. Tone it down a bit and leave the "black helicopters" on the pad. Thanks.

I see Radio Ray more as a lonely soul with too much time on his hands, too much vacant space between his ears, and some pathetic guy who lays awake an night dreaming of making it with some blue-haired wrinkled faced lady in her mid 60's who works for The FCC!!
:wink:
His cut-n-paste dissertations and fetishist ramblings are almost as noteworthy as those of Chad Sexington/LewisFriend/Col.Toon/BrianGriffin. :roll: :roll:

RadioRay · Joined: 15 Dec 2004 Posts: 165 Location: North Carolina

I see Radio Ray more as a lonely soul with too much time on his hands, too much vacant space between his ears, and some pathetic guy who lays awake an night dreaming of making it with some blue-haired wrinkled faced lady in her mid 60's who works for The FCC!![/color]
:wink:
His cut-n-paste dissertations and fetishist ramblings are almost as noteworthy as those of Chad Sexington/LewisFriend/Col.Toon/BrianGriffin. :roll: :roll:[/quote]

And I have not had had to resort to direct personal insults towards people of which I have no knowledge to prove that what I say is true as has the person above. You, sir, see nothing because you know nothing about RadioRay.

Let's play by the same rules that I am required to by the moderators.

RR

Useless · Joined: 08 Oct 2005 Posts: 3177 Location: Canyon Lake, Tx.

RadioRay;

Go call some radio talk show; who knows?? Maybe one of the listeners will actually give a rat's patootie!!!! :roll: :P

Useless · Joined: 08 Oct 2005 Posts: 3177 Location: Canyon Lake, Tx.

RadioRay wrote: You, sir, see nothing because you know nothing about RadioRay. RR
Actually, most of us who have been here at CAD for any length of time know more about you than we care to.

Your kind of like a fly, RadioRay!! You have an annoying buzz and you bother people!!

yoopr · Joined: 01 Dec 2004 Posts: 12865

Easy there Useless

RadioRay · Joined: 15 Dec 2004 Posts: 165 Location: North Carolina

Twilight Flyer wrote: Quote: There's a LOT of hams who are P---ed off big time over this and are working behind the scenes to get something done!

I'd have to disagree with that. Exageration is usually a pretty successful scare tactic/tool. :roll: But you are on a web forum here where probably 0% of the posters are 'violators' and most will view this as instigating and respond accordingly.

As I said in a previous post, you've not crossed any lines but are getting close. Tone it down a bit and leave the "black helicopters" on the pad. Thanks.

Actually there's no exageration. There is a thread at www.qrz.com about 5 pages long about the subject. They're pretty aggravated over it. There's also an article about it at www.arnewline.com, and if it isn't easily found, it can be googled to locate it. There's also a Google item entitled
"'Hammies' (sic) want us off 10 Meters". There's a lot more irritation than one might think over this. True, we can't determine how many drivers that read this site are actually violating the regulations, I think it serves the purpose of informing the industry that this is a problem. Most drivers are law-abiding citizens, and, once made aware of the fact that transmitting on 10 Meters without a license is illegal and can get you in lots of trouble, they would stop doing it. Chances are, many people don't KNOW it is against the law. They don't KNOW that those "10 Meter" radios they bought at a CB shop "out back" are illegal. If they know, most of them would stop it, I think. Those who don't/won't are the ones who are intractable and/or a prone to violate other laws as well. But they need to know anyway, don't you think? :)

Thanks,

RR

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