Truck Driving Jobs

golfhobo · Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:42 pm Post subject:

madii'swife wrote: The trainer is wanting to use "creative" logging to "get around" the 14 hour rule, telling him there's no money running legal (see the TransAm diary thread in What about this trucking company). Exactly what he's trying to get my husband to do on his logs I don't know for sure, I just know its a big bone of contention between the 2 of them right now.

It is my husband who thought that it "paused" the 14 hour clock to take a nap.

Please see my post on that thread.

Obviously, your husband is wrong. However, there is very LITTLE way of getting around the 14 hour rule. I don't know what your husband's trainer is trying, unless it is just logging some "break time" that wasn't actually taken to "tighten up" his log (speed averaging) allowing him a little more driving time... but it MUST be within the 14 hour window!

This is somewhat a general practice. MANY WILL BE AGHAST AT THAT! But, it happens. If traffic or whatever, keeps you from averaging a speed close to the limit, and you COULD have gotten say... 650 miles if you ran just a few mph under the limit, and you need 15 to 30 more minutes to get to your destination..... and you're within your 14 hour window..... MANY truckers will say, "well.... I ain't sleepy, so I'm not a danger to anyone. Might as well log a 15 min break back there somewhere (where I probably stopped to pee on the side of the road anyway and stretched my legs,) so I've got the time left to get to my consignee or whatever."

Is it STRICTLY legal? Probably not. But, if we all ran strictly by the book, there would be a lot more trucks parked on the side of the road.... and THAT is a safety issue!

Would you rather see a family of four killed because a sleepy family man drifted off the road for a moment and hit a parked TRUCK? Or would you rather see that truck make it to a Truck Stop and park for the night and the family get home safe after running over ONLY the "growler" that woke him up?

I don't condone sleepy driving, nor driving hours over the limit and fudging your logs to do so. But, when you consider that the DOT can't/doesn't even recognize 14 minutes and 59 seconds as a "period" worth logging, then what's the point in NOT getting to a safe spot to park?

I don't care WHO on here wants to "blast me" for it.... that's my story, and I'm sticking to it! :lol:

Rev.Vassago · Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:11 pm Post subject:

I ain't sayin nothin. :wink:

golfhobo · Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:20 pm Post subject:

Rev.Vassago wrote: I ain't sayin nothin. :wink:

WELL.... That's a "first!" :lol:

They say Discretion IS the better part of Valour! Nice to know you're so valorious! :lol:

Seriously, I know Yoopr said this is not a forum for "creative logging," but this IS a forum for new drivers to learn the ropes.

I'm not necessarily encouraging "creative logging." But, I think it is "practical" to give out information on how a driver can satisfy the requirements of the fmcsa regs and the DOT, and still get the job done. And we ALL know that, at times, we are asked to "git 'er done!"

We are often talking about a person's livelihood here. Many new drivers lose their jobs because they can't strike a "median" between what the rules say, and what their dispatcher wants.

Many others don't make a living because they follow the rules to the letter, even tho the letter doesn't allow them to make a living. And usually, neither they NOR the DOT even understands the letter of the law.

Like someone said earlier, "who in their right mind would log 3 hours on line 4 for unloading?" I logged over an hour for that just the other night... because the idiots at the shippers logged times on my BOL that made THEIR books look good! They weren't even the correct times!!! :twisted:

I know for a fact, and we ALL do, that the DOT will not question a 15 min log time for loading. They even allow you to make multiple stops in one town and just flag it and write down the miles inbetween! Then the shipper gives you a BOL that says you started loading at 7 pm (when you first checked in) and finished at midnight! You ALL know that is B.S!!)

The DOT is concerned about miles and hours spent behind the wheel over long distances. They KNOW we get naps at shippers! If your logs LOOK good, you SMELL good! That's a fact!

The DOT is concerned about TWO things! That you are NOT driving after 14 hours (cuz you'll get sleepy by then,) and that you don't drive more miles than you can log in 11 hours during that time! Period!

They assume you are stopping to stretch, get fuel, eat lunch, take a nap or whatever, as long as you haven't driven more miles than you "should" be able to do in 11 hours, and are NOT driving after the 14th hour after coming on duty!

It is YOUR job to make the logbook show that, so they don't have to put you Out Of Service!

I'm NOT condoning backing up your logs so you can drive 22 hours a day, then taking a 3 hour nap, and doing it again! That is illegal, unsafe, and just WRONG!!!

And you "wussies" that drive Solo, and get to shut down for 10 to 16 hours a night, don't even have a right to argue with me! I drive TEAM, and the wheels keep turning! I sleep 6 out of 12 hours in a moving sleeper if I'm LUCKY! [ :lol: :lol: :lol: Just kidding guys! I drive solo now and then and LOVE it!]

Not every trucker gets a cushy job like the Rev has. Some of us have to drive for a living (until we get enough years experience to GET a job like his! :lol: )

So... the question is... is the trainer asking your husband to drive ILLEGAL? Or just asking him to "conserve" hours on his 14 hour clock AS WELL as his 70 hour clock?

Even the Rev has made postings here that advocate conserving hours on your 70 while at the shipper... so I'm NOT expecting alot of flack over this posting!

I'm trying to get to the bottom of Madii's wife's husband's (what a mouthful) problem. And MAYBE, help save his job!

I DO NOT drive when I'm sleepy! I DO NOT drive over my 14 hour window! But, I do get my job done! AND I check my equipment thoroughly every time I get behind the wheel! I've driven as little as 290 miles in a day, and I've driven as much as 825!

I've never had a ticket nor an accident.

I don't have as much experience as the REV and many others here. But, I know the rules as well as anyone, and I ain't "skeert" to drive a truck!

Hobo

madii'swife · Joined: 02 Nov 2006 Posts: 577 Location: Stillwater, OK

I've been updating over on the TransAm thread, so just wanted to let anybody here know thats where updates will be. Thanks hobo, and go look, its good news this morning (at least I think it is :) )

Zandalli Moon · Joined: 28 Nov 2006 Posts: 25 Location: Wisconsin

Holy crap you guys....I felt like I drove 11 hours straight just reading the posts! :lol:

Rev.Vassago · Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 7:02 pm Post subject:

Zandalli Moon wrote: Holy crap you guys....I felt like I drove 11 hours straight just reading the posts! :lol:

What line did you log it on? :wink:

greg3564 · Joined: 30 Aug 2006 Posts: 1268 Location: Leander, TX

Where's Dawn when you need her? :shock: :D :lol:

madii'swife · Joined: 02 Nov 2006 Posts: 577 Location: Stillwater, OK

greg3564 wrote: Where's Dawn when you need her? :shock: :D :lol:

In everybody's PM boxes!!

Rev.Vassago · Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 7:24 pm Post subject:

madii'swife wrote: greg3564 wrote: Where's Dawn when you need her? :shock: :D :lol:

In everybody's PM boxes!!

You mean their EMAIL boxes. :wink:

kreeper01 · Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:41 am Post subject:

With all these different senario's, someone please show me where you can remain "On duty" past 14 hours?

Yes, it does state that you cannot legally drive beyond 14 hours. It also does not state you have to immediately pull over for 10 either.

So Rev., you do have a valid point, however, it should state that when that truck is moving, you should log it on line 3. Therefore, if a D.O.T. officer or you get pulled into a weigh station, your log will be correct up to that point.

My point is this:

Those boneheads for the Department of Transportation should make things more clearly instead of having the same thing mentioned 6 different ways in about 4 sections in the green and white book.

Us drivers do get tired, there is no one here at Class A Drivers who can stay up 24 hours non stop for 3 straight days with no sleep.

I, for one, cannot stay up no more than the alotted time and drive 20 straight hours non stop per day, expect to get 4 hours sleep/rest and do another 20 hours. that is under the old rules and some people are irate with the new ones.

How many drivers here can continuously drive non stop without getting grogy or fall alseep at the wheel?

Basically, the rules boils down to driver's discretion, work 14 hours, take 10 hours off. I am not about to take on the Federal Govnerment without any backing. The Feds can make 1 persons life a living nightmare.

golfhobo · Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:11 pm Post subject:

Kreeper:

The fmcsa website has been revised recently, and many of my links no longer work. I've also found that many sections have been edited, and much of the info has been left out. However, the following link is to the FINAL RULING under its current location. It is a very difficult document to read, but there is much info there.

At this link, under the Executive Summary, you will find the following "basis" for being on duty past the 14 hour "driving window."

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/rulemakings/final/05-16498-HOS-Final-Rule-8-25-05.htm

Quote: C. Executive Summary

Today's rule requires all drivers of property-carrying commercial
motor vehicles (CMVs) in interstate commerce to take at least 10
consecutive hours off duty before driving, limits driving time to 11
consecutive hours within a 14-hour, non-extendable window after coming
on duty, and prohibits driving after the driver has been on duty 60
hours in 7 consecutive days, or 70 hours in 8 consecutive days. Drivers
may restart the 60- or 70-hour ``clock'' by taking 34 consecutive hours
off duty.

The 14-hour driving window and the 10-hour off-duty requirement of
today's rule combine to move most drivers toward a 24-hour cycle, which
allows the body to operate in accord with its normal circadian rhythm
and the driver to sleep on the same schedule each day. A driver may
remain on duty after the 14-hour window closes or go off duty after the
11th hour of driving, in each case returning to work after 10 hours off
duty on something other than a 24-hour cycle. Nonetheless, FMCSA
believes that most drivers, most of the time, will go off duty at or
before the end of the 14th hour, since their principal responsibility--
driving--is illegal after that point.

Their INTENTION is to "move" us all towards a standard 24 hour day. But, they realize it will not always be practical. Therefore, their new rules are designed to ensure proper rest BEFORE returning to driving. That is why MOST of the rules/regs refer only to the 14 hour "duty cycle/window" and do not address line 4 activities AFTER that time. After studying ALL the regs AND the summaries AND this entire Final Ruling, I am 100% confident in my interpretation that one CAN be on line 4 past the 14 hour window... you just can't OPERATE the vehicle past 14 hours UNTIL you've gotten the required rest period. (caution: these line 4 hours will count against your 60/70 rule. But, as a matter of fact... you can exceed those limits as long as you are only on line 4. You just can't DRIVE if you've exceeded max weekly hours.)

If you need further assurance, go to their website and click on the logbook examples. You will see several "legal" scenarios of a driver on line 4 after the 14 hours as well as a few showing violations for returning to DRIVING without the proper break.

If you still have questions, I will be glad to answer them here or by PM.

The fmcsa rule "authors" have made a few mistakes concerning the use of the word "consecutive," so don't take that word too literally. As it pertains to split logging, it usually means "cumulative."

After only a cursory review of the new website, I am dismayed at the intentional removal of many questions, answers, and info concerning line 4 activities beyond the "duty window." They are seriously trying to make us conform to their "circadian rhythm" of a 24 hour day.... but they have NOT ruled out working past the 14 hour mark - as long as you're not driving.

I hope this helps.

For those of you wanting to know WHY the fmcsa has adopted these new sleeper/HOS rules.... that link will provide all the background info, research, objections by companies and organizations, etc. that you would NEVER want to have to wade through! Look for the sections under each topic that offer the FMCSA CONCLUSIONS.

Most of what we care about is contained (I believe - without looking again) in sections J-4, J-5 and J-6.

And, yes.... I've read EVERY word of this final ruling several times.

Trust me! :wink:

Edited twice to correct my mistake. I said line 3 several times when I meant line 4!!! I must have been driving too long! :lol: My apologies, if I confused anyone.

kreeper01 · Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:39 am Post subject:

This is my exact point, under the current hours of service, 14 hours of total on duty, 11 hours driving and 10 hours of off duty or sleeper berth time. However, what you wrote is correct, yes the companies want us to work 18 to 20 hour days, 4 hours sleep/rest and drive another 20 hour days. Some company log departments may get the driver to sign a form stating they violated the 14 hour rule. Me personally, i log it 1 of 2 ways:

1) i log it legal, i.e. 14 total hours of on duty with a 10 hour break.

2) logging it as i do it, i.e. lines 3 and 4 non stop and flag it where i am at and at what time.

golfhobo wrote:
At this link, under the Executive Summary, you will find the following "basis" for being on duty past the 14 hour "driving window."

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/rulemakings/final/05-16498-HOS-Final-Rule-8-25-05.htm

Quote: C. Executive Summary

Today's rule requires all drivers of property-carrying commercial
motor vehicles (CMVs) in interstate commerce to take at least 10
consecutive hours off duty before driving, limits driving time to 11
consecutive hours within a 14-hour, non-extendable window after coming
on duty, and prohibits driving after the driver has been on duty 60
hours in 7 consecutive days, or 70 hours in 8 consecutive days. Drivers
may restart the 60- or 70-hour ``clock'' by taking 34 consecutive hours
off duty.

The 14-hour driving window and the 10-hour off-duty requirement of
today's rule combine to move most drivers toward a 24-hour cycle, which
allows the body to operate in accord with its normal circadian rhythm
and the driver to sleep on the same schedule each day. A driver may
remain on duty after the 14-hour window closes or go off duty after the
11th hour of driving, in each case returning to work after 10 hours off
duty on something other than a 24-hour cycle. Nonetheless, FMCSA
believes that most drivers, most of the time, will go off duty at or
before the end of the 14th hour, since their principal responsibility--
driving--is illegal after that point.

Their INTENTION is to "move" us all towards a standard 24 hour day. But, they realize it will not always be practical. Therefore, their new rules are designed to ensure proper rest BEFORE returning to driving. That is why MOST of the rules/regs refer only to the 14 hour "duty cycle/window" and do not address line 3 activities AFTER that time. After studying ALL the regs AND the summaries AND this entire Final Ruling, I am 100% confident in my interpretation that one CAN be on line 3 past the 14 hour window... you just can't OPERATE the vehicle past 14 hours UNTIL you've gotten the required rest period. (caution: these line 4 hours will count against your 60/70 rule. But, as a matter of fact... you can exceed those limits as long as you are only on line 4. You just can't DRIVE if you've exceeded max weekly hours.)

If you need further assurance, go to their website and click on the logbook examples. You will see several "legal" scenarios of a driver on line 4 after the 14 hours as well as a few showing violations for returning to DRIVING without the proper break.

If you still have questions, I will be glad to answer them here or by PM.

The fmcsa rule "authors" have made a few mistakes concerning the use of the word "consecutive," so don't take that word too literally. As it pertains to split logging, it usually means "cumulative."

After only a cursory review of the new website, I am dismayed at the intentional removal of many questions, answers, and info concerning line 4 activities beyond the "duty window." They are seriously trying to make us conform to their "circadian rhythm" of a 24 hour day.... but they have NOT ruled out working past the 14 hour mark - as long as you're not driving.

I hope this helps.

For those of you wanting to know WHY the fmcsa has adopted these new sleeper/HOS rules.... that link will provide all the background info, research, objections by companies and organizations, etc. that you would NEVER want to have to wade through! Look for the sections under each topic that offer the FMCSA CONCLUSIONS.

Most of what we care about is contained (I believe - without looking again) in sections J-4, J-5 and J-6.

And, yes.... I've read EVERY word of this final ruling several times.

Trust me! :wink:

golfhobo · Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 2:24 am Post subject:

Kreeper:

I don't understand where you get this statement:

Quote: This is my exact point, under the current hours of service, 14 hours of total on duty, 11 hours driving and 10 hours of off duty or sleeper berth time.

It certainly doesn't agree with anything I said in my well worded response. And it isn't found anywhere in the regs.

What part of "A driver may remain on duty after the 14-hour window closes" dont you understand?

Let me try again. You have a 14 hour window, within which you can drive only 11 hours. Then you MAY stay on duty on line 4 for as long as you wish. However, before returning to DRIVING, you must take 10 hours off.

Let's say within your 14 hour window you drive 11, take a 2 hour nap, fuel for 30 mins, and log 15 mins each for pre and post trips. You just used all 14 of your hours. When do you plan on unloading your truck? AFTER a 10 hour break? You won't be in trucking long. :lol:

kreeper01 · Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 3:14 pm Post subject:

Yes, under the "14 hour rule" you do have 11 hours to drive, minus that from 14 and you get 3 hours under the 14 for fueling, pre and post trips and loading and unloading.

I have logged all the above in 14 hours while running "regional".

BTW, you never specified "OTR, Regional, or Dedicated". That is where you, Golfhobo, made the mistake. "OTR", you are darn tooting i won't make it (not as a solo driver), Regional and Dedicated i will. OTR means all 48 states, not the states east of the mississippi river, Regional and Dedicated are within a few state area.

golfhobo wrote:
What part of "A driver may remain on duty after the 14-hour window closes" dont you understand?

Let me try again. You have a 14 hour window, within which you can drive only 11 hours. Then you MAY stay on duty on line 4 for as long as you wish. However, before returning to DRIVING, you must take 10 hours off.

Let's say within your 14 hour window you drive 11, take a 2 hour nap, fuel for 30 mins, and log 15 mins each for pre and post trips. You just used all 14 of your hours. When do you plan on unloading your truck? AFTER a 10 hour break? You won't be in trucking long. :lol:

Rev.Vassago · Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:58 pm Post subject:

kreeper01 wrote: Yes, under the "14 hour rule" you do have 11 hours to drive, minus that from 14 and you get 3 hours under the 14 for fueling, pre and post trips and loading and unloading.

Nope. You get 11 hours to drive within the first 14 hours you are on duty after a 10 hour (or longer) break. You can be ON DUTY (not driving) after that 14th hour, but you cannot drive beyond the 14th hour.

Example: I come ON DUTY (driving) after a 34 hour reset at 8:00 AM. I drive until 7:00 PM, where I remain ON DUTY (not driving) for 8 hours unloading a trailer, and then take a 10 hour sleeper berth. Total time worked without a break - 19 hours. No violation, as I did not drive beyond the 14th hour.

kreeper01 wrote: BTW, you never specified "OTR, Regional, or Dedicated". That is where you, Golfhobo, made the mistake. "OTR", you are darn tooting i won't make it (not as a solo driver), Regional and Dedicated i will. OTR means all 48 states, not the states east of the mississippi river, Regional and Dedicated are within a few state area.

Dedicated could be coast to coast. OTR means Over The Road, and applies to drivers who are usually out for more than a week at a time. I ran OTR for many years without running all 48 states. In fact, I finally hit my 48th state last year, after 10 years of driving. I would consider any driver who is using the 70 / 8 hour rule to be an OTR driver, as it means the carrier operates 7 days a week.

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