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Dawn
Joined: 31 Oct 2006
Posts: 323
Location: Indianapolis, In
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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Rev.Vassago wrote: greg3564 wrote: I said you could be cited. However you have made previous statements that murder charges could be brought against a driver for log violations. Where is that information in your post?
I also admitted that I was wrong about the criminal charges being brought against a driver for a logbook violation, when Dawn posted information about a case where it happened. But Greg is correct - the logbook violation is not going to result in a murder charge - the fact that the driver killed someone will result in the murder charge.
Dawn's claim is the same as claiming that someone who runs someone over in the middle of the street, and they find out the person was speeding. The fact that they were speeding does not make or break the murder charge, just as the logbook violation does not make or break the vehicular homicide case.
I guess if it isn't spelled out in the book, you just can't get it! The trooper said it, DOT says it, but you just don't get it! That is what I mean about copy & paste, that is all you know! I guess read the papers call the DOT yourself and ask the proper question! :lol: |
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Rev.Vassago
Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 6281
Location: The other side of the coin
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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Dawn wrote: The trooper said it, DOT says it, but you just don't get it!
And that is where you do not understand. The trooper DID NOT say it, and neither does DOT. |
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ben45750
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 1759
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| So if a person jumps from a 50 story building, is it the jumping off the building going to kill them or is the fall from the 50 story building? |
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Rev.Vassago
Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 6281
Location: The other side of the coin
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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ben45750 wrote: So if a person jumps from a 50 story building, is it the jumping off the building going to kill them or is the fall from the 50 story building?
Neither. The landing kills them. :wink: |
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Fozzy
Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 2460
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: (e) Failure to complete the record of duty activities of this section or §395.15, failure to preserve a record of such duty activities, or making of false reports in connection with such duty activities shall make the driver and/or the carrier liable to PROSECUTION. Yes I made that in all caps!
And the will be prosecuted for the HOS violation, nothing more than that which relates to the HOS. |
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Rev.Vassago
Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 6281
Location: The other side of the coin
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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Fozzy wrote: Quote: (e) Failure to complete the record of duty activities of this section or §395.15, failure to preserve a record of such duty activities, or making of false reports in connection with such duty activities shall make the driver and/or the carrier liable to PROSECUTION. Yes I made that in all caps!
And the will be prosecuted for the HOS violation, nothing more than that which relates to the HOS.
Nope - you have it wrong. If you violate the HOS rules, you will be tried for murder. Dawn said so, and you should "trust" her. :wink: |
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Deus
Joined: 27 Aug 2006
Posts: 343
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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Rev.Vassago wrote: Fozzy wrote: Quote: (e) Failure to complete the record of duty activities of this section or §395.15, failure to preserve a record of such duty activities, or making of false reports in connection with such duty activities shall make the driver and/or the carrier liable to PROSECUTION. Yes I made that in all caps!
And the will be prosecuted for the HOS violation, nothing more than that which relates to the HOS.
Nope - you have it wrong. If you violate the HOS rules, you will be tried for murder. Dawn said so, and you should "trust" her. :wink:
Rev does that mean my 5 minute violation 6 months ago could lead to murder charges if I was ever involved in a traffic fatality? Oh no... I better quit driving. |
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Rev.Vassago
Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 6281
Location: The other side of the coin
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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Deus wrote: Rev does that mean my 5 minute violation 6 months ago could lead to murder charges if I was ever involved in a traffic fatality? Oh no... I better quit driving.
You better go turn yourself in right now, you murdering criminal. :wink: |
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yoopr
Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 12865
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| knock it off |
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Fredog
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 2327
Location: North Georgia
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| go to www.askthelaw.org and you will see a link where you can ask SR trooper Monty Dial a question. |
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got mud?
Joined: 27 May 2006
Posts: 244
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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greg3564 wrote: The bottom line is this: If you falsified your log, you can be cited for that offense. HOWEVER, if the accident caused death you still can only be cited for a log violation. The log citation in NO WAY would lead to a murder charge. A murder charge would be the result of willful and negligent actions.
It's not like a DPS trooper is going to sit there and think "A trucker killed someone and I'm going to let him go. Wait a minute there's a log violation! Holy sh*t now I'm going to arrest him for murder!" :roll:
Now would log violations be prosecuted and used as evidence should a driver have an at fault fatal accident? Yes, just like they would use any past tickets, accidents, etc. as evidence too. But log violations don't automatically equal murder charges.
Dawn, Don, Tom, whatever...can you please offer your opinion when asked instead of randomly posting your "expertise" at will.
actually a good lawyer would be able to use your log to prove a crimainal act. if you lied on your log that means you purposly or knowingly drove beyond the limits of the law these are the coulpable (sp)mental states for a manslauter or murder charge. if you had driven legally you would not have been in that place at that time for the accident to occur and because you chose to break the law if the accident is in anyway found to be your fault then your in big trouble. |
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Dawn
Joined: 31 Oct 2006
Posts: 323
Location: Indianapolis, In
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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Dawn wrote: got mud? wrote: greg3564 wrote: The bottom line is this: If you falsified your log, you can be cited for that offense. HOWEVER, if the accident caused death you still can only be cited for a log violation. The log citation in NO WAY would lead to a murder charge. A murder charge would be the result of willful and negligent actions.
It's not like a DPS trooper is going to sit there and think "A trucker killed someone and I'm going to let him go. Wait a minute there's a log violation! Holy sh*t now I'm going to arrest him for murder!" :roll:
Now would log violations be prosecuted and used as evidence should a driver have an at fault fatal accident? Yes, just like they would use any past tickets, accidents, etc. as evidence too. But log violations don't automatically equal murder charges.
Thank you Gotmudd! I am tired of trying to get them to see, they just don't get it! That is why I just sit back and kind of laugh at the fact I hope it doesn't happen to anyone who believes the one's who are arguing the facts I give! No punt intended! Just wanted to know someone out there does understand the facts, without it being written in the DOT book, because it goes beyond the DOT book at that point! :?:
Dawn, Don, Tom, whatever...can you please offer your opinion when asked instead of randomly posting your "expertise" at will.
actually a good lawyer would be able to use your log to prove a crimainal act. if you lied on your log that means you purposly or knowingly drove beyond the limits of the law these are the coulpable (sp)mental states for a manslauter or murder charge. if you had driven legally you would not have been in that place at that time for the accident to occur and because you chose to break the law if the accident is in anyway found to be your fault then your in big trouble.
Sorry I did not scroll down far enough when I replied above so please see where I said thanks GotMudd |
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kc0iv
Joined: 03 Feb 2005
Posts: 1113
Location: Kansas City, MO
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:35 am Post subject: |
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got mud? said: Quote: actually a good lawyer would be able to use your log to prove a crimainal act. if you lied on your log that means you purposly or knowingly drove beyond the limits of the law these are the coulpable (sp)mental states for a manslauter or murder charge. if you had driven legally you would not have been in that place at that time for the accident to occur and because you chose to break the law if the accident is in anyway found to be your fault then your in big trouble.
It would appear you are talking about Civil law not Criminal law. Big difference.
Going back to the start of this nonsense the driver was charged with "five charges of reckless homicide and four criminal recklessness charges". In another article it says "Spencer pleaded not guilty to five counts of reckless homicide, a Class C felony, and four counts of criminal recklessness resulting in serious bodily injury, also a Class C felony. ".
Now in the case of Civil lawsuit (which I'm sure there will be several) it is a totally different matter. In a civil case the lawyer will use everything he/she can find to prove his case. Even in the criminal trial they might use this as supporting evidence. But he was NOT charged with this. That has been our argument all along.
Dawn just can not read what the article says without adding to it her own personal agenda.
kc0iv |
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got mud?
Joined: 27 May 2006
Posts: 244
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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kc0iv wrote: got mud? said: Quote: actually a good lawyer would be able to use your log to prove a crimainal act. if you lied on your log that means you purposly or knowingly drove beyond the limits of the law these are the coulpable (sp)mental states for a manslauter or murder charge. if you had driven legally you would not have been in that place at that time for the accident to occur and because you chose to break the law if the accident is in anyway found to be your fault then your in big trouble.
It would appear you are talking about Civil law not Criminal law. Big difference.
Going back to the start of this nonsense the driver was charged with "five charges of reckless homicide and four criminal recklessness charges". In another article it says "Spencer pleaded not guilty to five counts of reckless homicide, a Class C felony, and four counts of criminal recklessness resulting in serious bodily injury, also a Class C felony. ".
Now in the case of Civil lawsuit (which I'm sure there will be several) it is a totally different matter. In a civil case the lawyer will use everything he/she can find to prove his case. Even in the criminal trial they might use this as supporting evidence. But he was NOT charged with this. That has been our argument all along.
Dawn just can not read what the article says without adding to it her own personal agenda.
kc0iv
actually i was refering to criminal law. the prosecutor is going to view a driver running on an illigal log book the same as he would a drunk driver. you are operating a motor vehical (CMV) beyond the limits of the law. in this case beyond how far you are allowed to drive without a break. if the prosecutor can prove that you where tired or that A resonable person would have been tired (that is what you are judged by not by how long a super trucker can go without sleep) and this was a factor in the accident then you choosing to break the law just laid the grounds for a crime and you will be charged with vehicular manslaughter or some form of that. studys have shown that being tired and drinking and driving are about the same. i'm not sticking up for the original poster but anyone that thinks you can run illigal and be in a fatal and only get a log book violation is dead wrong. |
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greg3564
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 1268
Location: Leander, TX
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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got mud? wrote: i'm not sticking up for the original poster but anyone that thinks you can run illigal and be in a fatal and only get a log book violation is dead wrong.
You are correct. But the original poster is insinuating that a log violation would automatically lead to manslaughter charges.
Commercial truck driving is no different that driving a regular vehicle when at fault in a fatal accident. If a district attorney feels you were negligent and your crime heinous, you will be charged with manslaughter or homicide.
The point is that just because you have a log violation does NOT determine manslaughter charges alone. Would you be charged for a log violation in a at fault fatal accident? Sure, they will throw any and every charge they can find just to make sure you get convicted of something. |
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