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Consider · Joined: 21 Jul 2006 Posts: 643 Location: New Mexico, USA

Does this seem as Dieabold-ically worrying to you as it does to me?

I actually just found these links at pbs... and I'm passing them on. I really should have posted yesterday... there's a topic that I think you might actually be interested in...

Hazeltine wrote: Why is Karl Rove Smiling?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jayne-lyn-stahl/why-is-karl-rove-smiling_b_32079.html

"Washington Post: Bush, Rove "Inexplicably Upbeat" About GOP Election Prospects..".

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/14/AR2006101401051_pf.html

Fozzy · Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2460

I wish these people would make up their minds... first the retards in FL could not figure out how to use a paper ballot without falling down and hurting themselves and now the system that they demanded is now "evil". Any system and every system that comes up will be beaten to death by those who feel that they will automatically lose. So when the elections are held and the republicans lose lots of seats (which is the most likely scenario) will this little gloom and doom BS stop? And when the republicans then start crying about the machines will the same sources listen and be as concerned as they are pretending to be now?

golfhobo · Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 10:22 am Post subject:

Come on Fozzy, it wasn't a simple "paper ballot" it was the butterfly design that confused them. Everyone with an open mind and an honest viewpoint KNOWS it wasn't a fair vote. Even Buchanan knows it.

You're insulting a LOT of little old ladies, like MY mom and maybe YOURS, who can easily get confused by such things.

I think the whole debacle of the "hanging chad" recount would have gone away, if they'd just allowed a "re-VOTE" in that one county.

As for the Diebold machines... I saw a report on the news yesterday that showed how easily they could be "hacked" and infected with a virus that would then infect the whole system, and we'd never be sure of the actual vote. Do you think that is GOOD for America??

What happens if the whole thing crashes, like what happened here just recently, and we lose millions of votes? Would YOU settle for just counting the ones that could be "recovered?"

I don't trust ANY computer based voting system, period! I doubt seriously if we'll EVER be able to trust the vote in America again.

We need PAPER ballots, without holes punched in them, in our OWN handwriting, counted by hand. Not easy, I know. But, the only fair way.

If you want to blame someone, start with the Republican Tricky Dick! Americans never even considered that our elections would be rigged before HIM!

bulldog2036 · Joined: 13 Aug 2005 Posts: 568

Karl Rove = a Bush demonic minion....... :P :P :P

golfhobo · Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 10:50 am Post subject:

See... Fozzy, the problem with your scenario is that, in SPITE of the polls and even the Republican's admissions (that they will lose,) the fact is... they will probably WIN! (with the help of Diebold)

Just like they won against the Popular Vote in 2000.

And THAT is why Rove is smiling!

Consider · Joined: 21 Jul 2006 Posts: 643 Location: New Mexico, USA

golfhobo wrote: Come on Fozzy, it wasn't a simple "paper ballot" it was the butterfly design that confused them. Everyone with an open mind and an honest viewpoint KNOWS it wasn't a fair vote. Even Buchanan knows it.

You're insulting a LOT of little old ladies, like MY mom and maybe YOURS, who can easily get confused by such things.

I think the whole debacle of the "hanging chad" recount would have gone away, if they'd just allowed a "re-VOTE" in that one county.

As for the Diebold machines... I saw a report on the news yesterday that showed how easily they could be "hacked" and infected with a virus that would then infect the whole system, and we'd never be sure of the actual vote. Do you think that is GOOD for America??

What happens if the whole thing crashes, like what happened here just recently, and we lose millions of votes? Would YOU settle for just counting the ones that could be "recovered?"

I don't trust ANY computer based voting system, period! I doubt seriously if we'll EVER be able to trust the vote in America again.

We need PAPER ballots, without holes punched in them, in our OWN handwriting, counted by hand. Not easy, I know. But, the only fair way.

If you want to blame someone, start with the Republican Tricky Dick! Americans never even considered that our elections would be rigged before HIM!
You really saw a news report on this?

I'm so worried because I haven't seen any news report on the national media, and if they aren't following it, it won't be an element they take seriously in the election.

Where did you see it? I'd like to write to them and say how happy I was to hear about their report... and I'd like to write the other outlets saying I wish they'd cover the issue.

Thanks! :)

Consider · Joined: 21 Jul 2006 Posts: 643 Location: New Mexico, USA

golfhobo wrote: See... Fozzy, the problem with your scenario is that, in SPITE of the polls and even the Republican's admissions (that they will lose,) the fact is... they will probably WIN! (with the help of Diebold)

Just like they won against the Popular Vote in 2000.

And THAT is why Rove is smiling!

I feel as if you've hit the nail on the head.

I'm going to go write to the national media outlets...

golfhobo · Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:33 am Post subject:

Consider: I don't remember if it was on FoxNews or CNN, but it was yesterday or the day before.

They had a Diebold machine set up, and some computer expert had what looked like a small diskette. I missed the very start of the program, but the crux of it was that someone could insert this chip into ONE single machine, and upload a virus that changed a certain number of votes from one candidate to another. No paper trail, no way to tell.

Then, either by taking the same diskette to vote headquarters, or just by linking that machine to headquarters for the total count (I forget which) the virus would be spread to the whole system.

He actually demonstrated this, by inserting the chip (WHY there was a PORT on the machine is beyond me!) and then pressing the key for candidate A, three times. The results shown on the screen when the "count" was retrieved, showed one vote for "A" and two votes for candidate "B" even though the button for "B" had never been pressed!

I'll see if I can google an article that confirms this.

Of course, it's OLD news by now. Someone must not want MANY of us to see it. I've lost ALL faith in our government in general.... and I can't help but blame that MOSTLY on the current administration.

golfhobo · Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:42 am Post subject:

Here you go, Consider. This published report predates the demonstration I saw on the news, but I believe it is the same "student" involved. The first few paragraphs explain exactly what I was referring to, and explains what the port on the machine is for.

On the news account, they mentioned that this "infected" boot chip could be taken back to HQ and thereby infect the whole system. But, even if it weren't, enough votes would have been changed to do the job.

Scary, isn't it? You think our government is honest enough to realize this problem and scrap the whole thing? Naaaa..... :roll:

Ooops! here's the link:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060913-7735.html

Fozzy · Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2460

Come on Fozzy, it wasn't a simple "paper ballot" it was the butterfly design that confused them. Everyone with an open mind and an honest viewpoint KNOWS it wasn't a fair vote. Even Buchanan knows it.

Wrong! It was only "confusing" in the 2000 election? These are the same balllots that had been used by these same morons for decades. It only became an issue when Gore's handlers (he had already admitted that he lost) thought that there was a way to manhandle the whole process and win a vote through manipulation of ONLY the democratically controlled areas.

You're insulting a LOT of little old ladies, like MY mom and maybe YOURS, who can easily get confused by such things.

If they are so "confused" then the ought not be voting.

I think the whole debacle of the "hanging chad" recount would have gone away, if they'd just allowed a "re-VOTE" in that one county.

That was not allowable in the voting laws of the state. This whole issue is based on the party in power in the area trying to change and manipulate standing laws.

As for the Diebold machines... I saw a report on the news yesterday that showed how easily they could be "hacked" and infected with a virus that would then infect the whole system, and we'd never be sure of the actual vote. Do you think that is GOOD for America??

I saw that there has been attempts to hijack elections for decades and that nothing has changed. There is a reason that these stories hit the air waves and it is not for information and you know it.

What happens if the whole thing crashes, like what happened here just recently, and we lose millions of votes? Would YOU settle for just counting the ones that could be "recovered?"

No, and I don't think that is a real issue either. If there is a fire in a place with paper ballots all the ballots should remain uncounted. Just as the democrats in FL wanted to disallow absentee voting in FL (mostly overseas military votes) it all depends on which ox is getting gored on how upset people are.

I don't trust ANY computer based voting system, period! I doubt seriously if we'll EVER be able to trust the vote in America again.

I trust that the American lemming though the media's hystaria on this issue will trust nothing and become even more pathetic.

We need PAPER ballots, without holes punched in them, in our OWN handwriting, counted by hand. Not easy, I know. But, the only fair way.

That's foolish and it would take months to count the ballots, who would do the counting and who would trust them? This has to be some sort of mechaincal and or computer based system. Why the most advanced societies in the world are now insisting on reverting to the stone age (like the Taliban) is just nuts to me.

If you want to blame someone, start with the Republican Tricky Dick! Americans never even considered that our elections would be rigged before HIM!

You act as though he invented something and of course this is an unbiased opinion? LOL!!!!

golfhobo · Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:29 pm Post subject:

Fozzy wrote: Come on Fozzy, it wasn't a simple "paper ballot" it was the butterfly design that confused them. Everyone with an open mind and an honest viewpoint KNOWS it wasn't a fair vote. Even Buchanan knows it.

Wrong! It was only "confusing" in the 2000 election? These are the same balllots that had been used by these same morons for decades. It only became an issue when Gore's handlers (he had already admitted that he lost) thought that there was a way to manhandle the whole process and win a vote through manipulation of ONLY the democratically controlled areas.

I'm sure you don't want a serious debate on this Fozzy, but nevertheless, let's clear up some of your "facts."

It was all over the news, and admitted by the Democratic lady in charge, that SHE was responsible for this snafu. It's not the butterfly ballot design (which HAD been used before) that was the problem per se, but the fact that they didn't put Bush on ONE side and Gore on the OTHER. The 'alternating' order went... Bush on the left, Buchanan on the right, and Gore on the left. So those who didn't want Bush (first line) went to the second line assuming it would be Gore, and punched the hole for Buchanan! Gore admitted defeat, because even HE didn't know about the faulty design. Since when does the "independant" candidate get listed ABOVE the two main party candidates?

You're insulting a LOT of little old ladies, like MY mom and maybe YOURS, who can easily get confused by such things.

If they are so "confused" then the ought not be voting.

So... following this logic, and considering your STATED opinion about "believers," the Moral Majority shouldn't have been allowed to vote either, right?

I think the whole debacle of the "hanging chad" recount would have gone away, if they'd just allowed a "re-VOTE" in that one county.

That was not allowable in the voting laws of the state. This whole issue is based on the party in power in the area trying to change and manipulate standing laws.

Well... I'm not exactly sure about the state laws, but since this was a FEDERAL election, you'd think Bush or the Supremes MIGHT have over-rode them in such a situation. Lucky for them, they didn't HAVE to be so gracious since, Katherine Harris (of the REAL party in control in Florida) declared it a non-question, and forced the legislation to rule on it before it was decided in the courts.

As for the Diebold machines... I saw a report on the news yesterday that showed how easily they could be "hacked" and infected with a virus that would then infect the whole system, and we'd never be sure of the actual vote. Do you think that is GOOD for America??

I saw that there has been attempts to hijack elections for decades and that nothing has changed. There is a reason that these stories hit the air waves and it is not for information and you know it.

Hijacked? Maybe. HACKED? only since the personal computer revolution, and then only since the first use of computer voting machines, which until now have been very limited. I don't disagree that MANY things "hit the airwaves" just before elections, from BOTH sides. But, this little piece of info I've seen only MINIMAL coverage of, and I think it is VERY important to the future of our election process.

What happens if the whole thing crashes, like what happened here just recently, and we lose millions of votes? Would YOU settle for just counting the ones that could be "recovered?"

No, and I don't think that is a real issue either. If there is a fire in a place with paper ballots all the ballots should remain uncounted. Just as the democrats in FL wanted to disallow absentee voting in FL (mostly overseas military votes) it all depends on which ox is getting gored on how upset people are.

With a (someday) completely computer controlled election, that most certainly IS a possibility.... and even YOU know it. But, you contradict yourself here. You say "NO" to my question of would you settle for the last "backup" server count, then say if ballots get burned up in ... say a BLUE state election HQ... those ballots are "immaterial?"

I agree that the posturing concerning the overseas ballots was B.S.!! I NEVER would accept denying our Military their votes, I don't care if the "ship sank!" But, again, they wouldn't have mattered (I don't believe) if the Palm Beach County vote had been accurate.

I don't care if it takes until April (and it HAS before) to get the count right... I believe every vote should be counted FOR the candidate of choice.

I don't trust ANY computer based voting system, period! I doubt seriously if we'll EVER be able to trust the vote in America again.

I trust that the American lemming though the media's hystaria on this issue will trust nothing and become even more pathetic.

Not even a thought worth commenting on. :roll:

We need PAPER ballots, without holes punched in them, in our OWN handwriting, counted by hand. Not easy, I know. But, the only fair way.

That's foolish and it would take months to count the ballots, who would do the counting and who would trust them? This has to be some sort of mechaincal and or computer based system. Why the most advanced societies in the world are now insisting on reverting to the stone age (like the Taliban) is just nuts to me.

Fair questions and concerns, to be sure. But, the reason they HAD all those hanging chads (which were originally OPTICALLY counted) was because of these "dime store" punchout machines that left piles of chads under the screen, which prevented a clean "punchout." Why not use indelible ink and "fill in a circle" like we do on SAT tests and the like? And then sign your name? THOSE could then be "optically scanned" with NO problem. (unless, of course, someone "hacks" the counting machines.) And, of course, there would ALWAYS be a good, clean paper trail to verify.

If you want to blame someone, start with the Republican Tricky Dick! Americans never even considered that our elections would be rigged before HIM!

You act as though he invented something and of course this is an unbiased opinion? LOL!!!!

You might find this funny. When I was young, (I think it was Nixon's FIRST attempt at being President,) and being the son of Conservative Republicans and wanting to be part of it, I was FOR Nixon! No other real reason for it. But, my folks still get a laugh out of me saying,

"I'm for Nixon and my mind is made up! Don't try to confuse me with the FACTS!" (I think I was about 9) :lol:

Nixon woke me up to political realities with the Watergate affair. Even so, I LIKED Reagan (though I didn't vote at ALL in that election.) I can deal with being outvoted in an election. I just no longer trust the process. I want a fair vote, and a fair count. I think it was a disgrace that the Supremes decided the 2000 election because they "didn't have TIME to get it right!"

Let's see... Brother Jeb governed Florida in 2000. The governor of Ohio which decided the '04 election is now a disgraced criminal. Cheney's links to Haliburton and Diebold are unchallenged and Iraq is gonna end up WORSE than Vietnam!

You go ahead and vote for the GOP again, Fozzy. We'll try not to confuse you with the FACTS!!! :roll:

Hobo

Fozzy · Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2460

I'm sure you don't want a serious debate on this Fozzy, but nevertheless, let's clear up some of your "facts."

It was all over the news, and admitted by the Democratic lady in charge, that SHE was responsible for this snafu.

First of all, you'd have to consider it a snafu. I saw the ballots and they were NOT that confusing if you have at least SOME brain function left.

Since when does the "independant" candidate get listed ABOVE the two main party candidates?

Since when do people vote base on color? Since when do people vote on what ORDER there candidate is placed on the ballot? Both of these things were easily mastered if the dummy would have actually read the ballot.

[color=darkred]So... following this logic, and considering your STATED opinion about "believers," the Moral Majority shouldn't have been allowed to vote either, right?

If they can get into a voting booth and READ the ballot then there is no problem if however the voted for SATAN because he was listed in purple on the second page.. then they are stupid and have only themselves to blame.

Well... I'm not exactly sure about the state laws, but since this was a FEDERAL election, you'd think Bush or the Supremes MIGHT have over-rode them in such a situation. Lucky for them, they didn't HAVE to be so gracious since, Katherine Harris (of the REAL party in control in Florida) declared it a non-question, and forced the legislation to rule on it before it was decided in the courts.

It was a federal and state election and the states set the times and basic rules for the elections.

With a (someday) completely computer controlled election, that most certainly IS a possibility.... and even YOU know it. But, you contradict yourself here. You say "NO" to my question of would you settle for the last "backup" server count, then say if ballots get burned up in ... say a BLUE state election HQ... those ballots are "immaterial?"

No, they should be inadmissable. There should be no problem with that for anyone, either the whole sector gets their votes counted or no one's does. The state elections can be redone for them, but the federal elections are just a wash.

I don't care if it takes until April (and it HAS before) to get the count right... I believe every vote should be counted FOR the candidate of choice.

Thats just crazy. A nation like this should be able to elect someone in less than 6 friggen months. It's this type of behavior that makes us the laughing stock to a lot of less desireable places on the planet. We sometimes actually deserve the ridicule that we receive.

I think it was a disgrace that the Supremes decided the 2000 election because they "didn't have TIME to get it right!"

Thats only your opinion on what happened... It doesn't take six months for the supreme court to look at something and decide whether or not they have no business in it.

Let's see... Brother Jeb governed Florida in 2000.

What did the governor decide?

The governor of Ohio which decided the '04 election is now a disgraced criminal.

What did he decide? He didnt have to.. Kerry at least could admit that he was beaten.. and then of course later when it was too late to do anything but cry, made statements otherwise..

Cheney's links to Haliburton and Diebold are unchallenged

Unchallenged? HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-
HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-
HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-
HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!!!!!!

and Iraq is gonna end up WORSE than Vietnam!

Condsidering the same types of people are doing the same types of intel leaking and giving aid to the enemies of the US, its not to far from being a reality. The libs cannot disguise their glee everytime an American dies over there. Those zebras have not changed their stripes. I'm still waiting for one of the old hippies to start talking about the gentleman farmers of Iraq.

You go ahead and vote for the GOP again, Fozzy. We'll try not to confuse you with the FACTS!!!

As soon as you come up with some, let me know.

:lol:

Rev.Vassago · Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 7:18 pm Post subject:

golfhobo wrote: I'm sure you don't want a serious debate on this Fozzy, but nevertheless, let's clear up some of your "facts."

It was all over the news, and admitted by the Democratic lady in charge, that SHE was responsible for this snafu. It's not the butterfly ballot design (which HAD been used before) that was the problem per se, but the fact that they didn't put Bush on ONE side and Gore on the OTHER. The 'alternating' order went... Bush on the left, Buchanan on the right, and Gore on the left. So those who didn't want Bush (first line) went to the second line assuming it would be Gore, and punched the hole for Buchanan! Gore admitted defeat, because even HE didn't know about the faulty design. Since when does the "independant" candidate get listed ABOVE the two main party candidates?

The REAL facts are getting in the way here. Such as the fact that there were little arrows that point to the hole to be punched:

Quote: Well... I'm not exactly sure about the state laws, but since this was a FEDERAL election, you'd think Bush or the Supremes MIGHT have over-rode them in such a situation. Lucky for them, they didn't HAVE to be so gracious since, Katherine Harris (of the REAL party in control in Florida) declared it a non-question, and forced the legislation to rule on it before it was decided in the courts.

Had this supposed re-vote actually occurred, you would have had more corruption than ever, as the entire nation would know that the election was hanging on that county. The turnout would have been astronomical, and probably would have even exceeded the total population for the county, due to outsiders coming in to vote.

Quote: Hijacked? Maybe. HACKED? only since the personal computer revolution, and then only since the first use of computer voting machines, which until now have been very limited. I don't disagree that MANY things "hit the airwaves" just before elections, from BOTH sides. But, this little piece of info I've seen only MINIMAL coverage of, and I think it is VERY important to the future of our election process.

Hacked, rigged, it's all the same. They have been claiming these voting machines could be broken into for years.

Quote: Just as the democrats in FL wanted to disallow absentee voting in FL (mostly overseas military votes) it all depends on which ox is getting gored on how upset people are.

This is a constitutional violation of the right to vote, to deny people's vote just for the sake of denying it. Any true American should be upset about it, no matter what the result.

Of course, I'm sure that THIS type of punch hole ballot would have been fine for the Democrats in 2000.....

Fozzy · Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2460

Fozzy · Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2460

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