Truck Driving Jobs

kreeper01

I recently got off the road and wanted some input about the following:

Under the Hours of Service:

As i understand the rules, it clearly states i have 14 hours of "total on duty" hours to work with the minute i go to line 4 to do my pre-trip. I finish up a run 1 hour prior to my scedule delivery time (being between 5 to 8am).

Running illegal:

After making the delivery, i sit around at the most of 7 hours, then expected to make another pick up and delivery before 5am the next morning with a "supposed" 11 fresh hours.

I read the safety regulations book over and over, it clearly states that i have 14 hours to work with in a 24 hour period. Here is the catch, it does not state anywhere in the green and white book about pulling over to take a 10 hour break. It merely states that i have 14 hours to work with in a 24 hour period with a 10 hour break.

Can the Department of Transportation legally fine the driver for violating the hours of service when it clearly states in the rule book that you can still drive after you ran out your 14 hours?

Rawlco · Joined: 25 Jan 2006 Posts: 1150 Location: Central Maine

Quote: As i understand the rules, it clearly states i have 14 hours of "total on duty" hours to work with the minute i go to line 4 to do my pre-trip. I finish up a run 1 hour prior to my scedule delivery time (being between 5 to 8am).

Not quite, The rule is:
Quote: ?395.3 Maximum driving time for property-carrying vehicles.
Subject to the exceptions and exemptions in ? 395.1:

(a) No motor carrier shall permit or require any driver used by it to drive a property-carrying commercial motor vehicle, nor shall any such driver drive a property-carrying commercial motor vehicle:

(a)(1) More than 11 cumulative hours following 10 consecutive hours off duty; or

(a)(2) For any period after the end of the 14th hour after coming on duty following 10 consecutive hours off duty, except when a property-carrying driver complies with the provisions of ?395.1(o) or ?395.1(e)(2).

So you can only drive 11 hours in a 14 hour window, but you can remain on duty after the 14 hours as long as you don't drive.

Quote: I read the safety regulations book over and over, it clearly states that i have 14 hours to work with in a 24 hour period. Here is the catch, it does not state anywhere in the green and white book about pulling over to take a 10 hour break. It merely states that i have 14 hours to work with in a 24 hour period with a 10 hour break.

In the rules stated above there is no mention of "in a 24 hour period" anywhere in relation to the 11 and 14 hour rules. You have 11 driving hours within a 14 hour window AFTER ANY 10 hour break.

Quote: Can the Department of Transportation legally fine the driver for violating the hours of service when it clearly states in the rule book that you can still drive after you ran out your 14 hours?

I don't know where it "clearly states" that you can drive after your 14 because it doesn't. 14 is 14 no matter the circumstances. If you go over the 14 you are in voilation and probably could be fined.

Now if you had turned that 7 hours of sitting into an 8 hour sleeper berth break you could have qualified for split sleeper logging and possibly been able to log it legally.

kreeper01 · Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:03 pm Post subject:

As i thought, i did read through the book (section 395) more times than i can count and came to the same conclusion, Rawlco.

However, the Owner/Operator stated that i cannot drive solo because they claim "to be babysitting me". Which is a crock, because of several reasons:

1: The Owner Operator drilled me like a drill seargent for every bit of info about my availble hours, where i am at, what i am doing. I cannot even pull into a rest area to use the little boy's room without him knowing about it.

2: He also wanted me to drive 16, 18, possibly over 20 hour days to make a delivery that will not deliver till the next afternoon some 600+, under 660 miles away. When he wanted me there the next morning at percisly at 0700.

3: i know i can drive my 11 hours out, however, i do not like sitting around 7, 8, up to 10 hours in the middle of the day when i am wide awake.

chapchap70 · Joined: 15 Mar 2006 Posts: 138 Location: Long Island, NY

Quote: Now if you had turned that 7 hours of sitting into an 8 hour sleeper berth break you could have qualified for split sleeper logging and possibly been able to log it legally.

I believe that when they changed the hours of service rules, the split shift became illegal. Once you come on duty after a 10 hour break, you have 14 hours to complete your on duty time. So if you take an hour break in that time, it counts against the 14 hour time you are allowed to work for your "duty tour" but not against the 60/70 week.

Rawlco · Joined: 25 Jan 2006 Posts: 1150 Location: Central Maine

A common misconception chapchap70. Any break less than 8 hours is counted against the 14 hours as you described, but an 8 hour break has special rules:

The regulations regarding split sleeper berth time are listed in section 395.1 (g)
available at http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/395.1.htm

For a truck that is equipped with a sleeper berth a driver
Quote: (g)(1)(i)(A) Must, before driving, accumulate either

(1) At least 10 consecutive hours off duty; or
(2) At least 10 consecutive hours of sleeper-berth time; or
(3) A combination of consecutive sleeper-berth and off-duty time amounting to at least 10 hours; or
(4) The equivalent of at least 10 consecutive hours off duty if the driver does not comply with options (1), (2) or (3) above.

(g)(1)(ii)(A) The term ?equivalent of at least 10 consecutive hours off duty? means a period of
(1) At least 8 but less than 10 consecutive hours in a sleeper berth, and
(2) A separate period of at least 2 but less than 10 consecutive hours either in the sleeper berth or off duty, or any combination thereof.

This means that split logging is still allowed, but only the 8 and 2 split not any other combinations. Your breaks have to be at least 8 hours and 2 hours. They can be longer. You can also take shorter breaks but they won?t qualify for the split sleeper provision. I did pick out only the sections of the rule pertaining to split sleeper breaks and I think everything above is quite clear.

Now that you have your 8 hours in the sleeper and another 2 hours off duty how do you count your 11 and 14? This is where the government made it complicated.

First we have this rule:
Quote: (g)(1)(i)(D)Must exclude from the calculation of the 14-hour limit any sleeper berth period of at least 8 but less than 10 consecutive hours.
This means that you count your 14 hour limit as usual including any off duty time UP TO 8 hours. IF you have 8 hours off duty THEN you skip that in your 14 hour calculation. More on this in a few minutes, and I?ll explain with pictures.

Then comes the key to figuring the hours:
Quote: (g)(1)(ii)(B) Calculation of the 11-hour driving limit includes all driving time; compliance must be re-calculated from the end of the first of the two periods used to comply with paragraph (g)(1)(ii)(A) of this section.

(g)(1)(ii)(C) Calculation of the 14-hour limit includes all time except any sleeper-berth period of at least 8 but less than 10 consecutive hours; compliance must be re-calculated from the end of the first of the two periods used to comply with the requirements of paragraph (g)(1)(ii)(A) of this section.

These means that you start counting for both the 11 and 14 hour rules from the END of the FIRST break. It does not matter which order you take the 8 or 2 break in, since one will always be before the other. You may also sometimes need to use the end of a ten hour break as the "previous break."

chapchap70 · Joined: 15 Mar 2006 Posts: 138 Location: Long Island, NY

From the FMCSA site.

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/truck/driver/hos/hos-faqs.asp

Quote: G-3. How does a driver who is utilizing the sleeper berth provision calculate his or her compliance with the 14-hour rule?

A sleeper-berth period of at least 8 consecutive hours is excluded from calculation of the 14-hour limitation. All other sleeper berth periods are included in the 14-hour calculation (unless part of a sleeper-berth/off-duty combination of 10 or more consecutive hours).

Rawlco,

One can (mis)read the sleeper berth provision as being able to drive 9 out of 11 hours, take two consecutive hours off, restart the 11/14 hour clock, drive another 9 hours, then take an 8 hour sleeper berth break. This would mean a driver could legally drive something like 18 hours out of 22 before having to take an 8 hour break. I don't understand why they didn't make it simpler by just making an 8 hour sleeper berth provision. The question/answer above says nothing about the two hour part of the sleeper berth provision.

If I am reading the provision right, an OTR driver can drive something like 5 out of 6hours, go off duty for 2 hours, drive another 6 out of 8 hours, then take 8 hours off in the sleeper berth. I think the 2 hour provision can extend the 14 hour "duty tour" time like in my example to 16 hours provided that the driver spend at least the next 8 hours in the sleeper berth.

The split shift option is no longer available for local CDL drivers that would extend the "duty tour" beyond 14 hours. (16 hours once per reset period) I think it used to be legal for say a cement truck driver to go to a job for a morning shift, take a few hours off duty, then work an evening shift.

(Edited to correct fuzzy math)

Rawlco · Joined: 25 Jan 2006 Posts: 1150 Location: Central Maine

chapchap70 wrote: One can (mis)read the sleeper berth provision as being able to drive 9 out of 11 hours, take two consecutive hours off, restart the 11/14 hour clock, drive another 9 hours, then take an 8 hour sleeper berth break. This would mean a driver could legally drive something like 18 hours out of 22 before having to take an 8 hour break. .
You are forgetting this rule:
Quote: (g)(1)(ii)(C) Calculation of the 14-hour limit includes all time except any sleeper-berth period of at least 8 but less than 10 consecutive hours; compliance must be re-calculated from the end of the first of the two periods used to comply with the requirements of paragraph (g)(1)(ii)(A) of this section.
Specifically the words "end of the first." Not the second or most recent break, but the 14 hours is calculated from the END of the PREVIOUS qualifying break.
Quote:
I don't understand why they didn't make it simpler by just making an 8 hour sleeper berth provision.
Neither do I, but I have put some time into understanding the rule as it is currently written. About the time everyone understands it they will change it again. :roll:
Quote: The question/answer above says nothing about the two hour part of the sleeper berth provision
A two hour break does not stop the 14 hour clock. Only an 8 hour or more break stops the clock.

Quote: The split shift option is no longer available for local CDL drivers that would extend the "duty tour" beyond 14 hours. (16 hours once per reset period)
Correct, but the local driving rules are different.

Quote: If I am reading the provision right, an OTR driver can drive something like 5 out of 6 hours, go off duty for 2 hours, drive another 6 out of 8 hours, then take 8 hours off in the sleeper berth. I think the 2 hour provision can extend the 14 hour "duty tour" time like in my example to 16 hours provided that the driver spend at least the next 8 hours in the sleeper berth.

Not quite. 2 hours does not extend the 14, only the 8 does that. With your example the driver starts (after a fresh 10 hours off) at midnight so the 14 hour clock expires at 2pm, and drives 5 hours on duty 1 hour. Takes 2 hours off duty from 6 to 8 am. For the driving period that starts at 8am the 14 hour limit will end it by 2 pm. You have already used 5 hours on line 3 so you have 6 left in the 11, and in a 6 hour window.
To continue your example you take an 8 hour sleeper berth break from 2 to 10 pm. Your 14 hour clock starts at the end of the previous break or 8am and excludes the 8 hour sleeper break so the next 14 hour period ends at 6am day2 and you can accumulate 5 driving hours between 10 pm and 6 am.

I am afraid that I have made a mess of these instructions not presenting them in a logical order. I urge you to visit another thread that I wrote that is easier to follow I think. click here

I'm not trying to make it complicated, honest. :lol:

kreeper01 · Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:19 pm Post subject:

I have to agree with Rawlco here, Chapchap70.

When you take 2 hours out of 10 on line 1 (off duty), you must take the remaining 8 hours on line 2 (sleeper berth) consecutively, i.e. in 1 block.
The 2 hours of off duty counts against your 14, but the remaining 8 on line 2 does not.

chapchap70 · Joined: 15 Mar 2006 Posts: 138 Location: Long Island, NY

It makes sense to me, somehow I was using the last break to calculate when to restart the 14 hours. If I ever go OTR, I'll call you. But like you said, they probably will have changed the rules again. :roll:

tweety bird · Joined: 24 Jun 2006 Posts: 434

Man, it was so much easier with the 10/8 BEFORE they decided to re-regulate it all! Sure, we get an extra hour to drive... but two extra hours we have to rest! And the 14 hour thing is confusing as all get out!

It was much simpler before... now I spend my HOS trying to figure the HOS out!

GMAN · Joined: 13 Feb 2005 Posts: 9666 Location: Tennessee

[quote="chapchap70"]It makes sense to me, somehow I was using the last break to calculate when to restart the 14 hours. If I ever go OTR, I'll call you. But like you said, they probably will have changed the rules again. :roll:[/quote]

They are in the process of attempting to make changes to the new HOS as we speak. For so many years, we didn't have changes and things seemed to work just fine. Now, it seems that they change every year. That is the problem when you get crazies like MADD and others who know nothing about this business dictating policy and rules. What they have really done is make trucking less safe by their uneducated interference. I think we need to throw the logs away and treat this job like any other. Most of us will stop when we get tired. Those who push the envelope will do so with or without a log book. These people who are pushing their own policies on us fail to understand the facts. :?

Fozzy · Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2460

This seems to be an industry wide "historical re-write" of the facts. The fact is that the drivers in their infinte "wisdom" and as they have always been claimed to be "powerless" to stop the "evil and insideious" trucking companies, shippers and receivers "allow" them to work legally and safely. It's been the same old song and dance since I've been in the industry. They complained and complained and vented their spleens to anyone and everyone who would listen. Finally, someone did. The drivers finally got the government involved and they started (with company backing and cooperation) did federal sleep depreavation studies as it related to trucking using ACTUAL drivers as their test bed. The results proved that the old HOS were the WORST thing in the world physically for the human body. Looking around at most drivers would prove that :P . They FIRST instituted a 14 hours off schedule!!!! They settled on the plan of 14 on/10 off that it finally became. The DRIVER'S demanded that the rules be changed.

The problem is that just like the abused wife syndrome, the truckers saw the cops show up on the doorstep and instantly went into "he abuses me but I love him" act and the die was cast. The supposed abuser saw this happening and started advertising their support. The numerous VERY fatal crashes and the MADD groups and the unions made the change over easy. The problem is that like GMAN stated, those who will run illegal will run illegal no matter what. Those of us who will not, will not.

palidian · Joined: 12 Jun 2006 Posts: 14

[quote="Rawlco"]

I don't know where it "clearly states" that you can drive after your 14 because it doesn't. 14 is 14 no matter the circumstances. If you go over the 14 you are in voilation and probably could be fined.

[/quote]

Not true, if you start and deliver to the same location you may extend the 14 hour rule by two hours, every 7 days or after a 34 hour reset, there are a list of exemptions for oilfield opperations as well.

395.3, 395.1

ben45750 · Joined: 23 Apr 2005 Posts: 1746

palidian wrote: Rawlco wrote:

I don't know where it "clearly states" that you can drive after your 14 because it doesn't. 14 is 14 no matter the circumstances. If you go over the 14 you are in voilation and probably could be fined.

Not true, if you start and deliver to the same location you may extend the 14 hour rule by two hours, every 7 days or after a 34 hour reset, there are a list of exemptions for oilfield opperations as well.

395.3, 395.1

I use that rule every week, can also extend the 14 hour rule for adverse driving conditions.... traffic back ups, weather..... anything that was not know when the trip was dispatched.

Rawlco · Joined: 25 Jan 2006 Posts: 1150 Location: Central Maine

Which is why I prefaced my explanation with the words:
Quote: For a truck that is equipped with a sleeper berth a driver. . .

There are many exemptions and exceptions for various industries. This thread addresses a specific segment of the HOS regulations.

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